[Closed] So, swimming...

When I was learning front crawl, I had to slow it right down so I didn't get out of breath. Once you do that, you can work on technique to get the speed back.

BREATHE OUT

Perhaps the biggest reason why FC makes people tired is that people don't breath out properly. Breath in, yes, breath out, no.

The great guys at www.swimsmooth.com have a lot to say on this.

The have a great exercise which I use whenever I get in the pool as a warm up. It's about consciously breathing out.

Breath in and then as you put your face back in the water breath out consciously saying bubble, bubble before taking your next breath. Assuming bilateral breathing here.

Then repeat

Breathe, bubble, bubble, breathe
Breathe, bubble, bubble, breather
ETC

Helps to get CO2 out of the body in a conscious manner

... is dull as hell, yes.

Just one length leaves me quite breathless

Get out of the pool and do 8x200m sprints on foot, with a 30s rest. Do this twice a week and you'll be much better in the pool.

do find that going too slow makes it harder work - is that normal?

No. Swimming is all about efficiency. Try doing lengths with as few strokes as possible, regardless of speed. It'll help you learn to glide, your breathing will be much more under control and you can focus on sliding through the water. You should be mostly under water, afaik.

Go & practice with the water polo team, that'll sort you out!

🙂

I've looked at the swimsmooth site a bit, it was there I saw the emphasis on breathing out. Sometimes when I go slower I forget about breathing for five or six strokes and them think 'oh crap, better breathe'!

Sprints round the pool Molly, that'll get me whistled at by the lifeguards surely.

Get out of the pool, get dressed, go home, change into running gear, and find somewhere flat....

EDIT dry yourself off between steps one and two

There's a start, you are aware that your are holding your breath. DON'T its verya tiring!!!

Consciously focus on doing 4 lengths swimming slowly/steady and focusing consciously on breathing out.

IME it works. Try it. Good luck, it does come

Join a class - swimming is one sport where coaching makes a huge difference.

But if that's not an option, some ideas (including some already pointed out):

* Swim slower. Take it easy and concentrate on doing it right.

* Make sure you reach forward before pulling back

* You can always breathe in a 3-2 pattern - breathe, 3 strokes (change sides) and breathe, 2 strokes and breathe (same side), then 3 again. Etc. It adds another breath in to your cycle and makes it a bit easier.ç

* Breathe out completely before breathing in again. Personally I like to hold my breath for the first stroke then breathe out continuously for the next two, but as long as it's all gone when it's time to breathe again you're good.

* Warm up properly. You'll probably need at least 200m to warm up properly, do at least 8-10 lengths of mixed crawl / breaststroke / backstroke before you start trying to stick to just crawl.

* It's pretty unlikely, but you could have a reaction to the chlorine. But it's much more likely to be a lack of technique.

But mainly: take some (more) classes.

Do nose clips help?

I could never swim front-crawl for the same reasons and was really fustrated as my other strokes apart from back-stroke were really slow.
I started using a mid-line snorkel, it took the breathing completely out of the equation which allows you to focus on other aspects of the stroke first which was helpful for me as once I got the roll of the shoulders thing going the breathing (without the snorkel) evolved naturally.

Classes/lessons is not really possible, the times I can go is pretty hit and miss due to work.

Maybe it's just time? 3 months ago I couldn't do it at all.

Presume you have seen this

http://www.swimsmooth.com/exhalation.html

I try to watch other swimmers and it looks like they get to about a 45° angle with their shoulders looking head on. Is that about right?

Didn't you learn to swim as a kid?

Yes, seen that THM. I don't hold my breath anymore, that was the main stumbling block before though. I think I generally breathe out slowly with a big blast just before the next breath though, so maybe I'm subconsciously trying to hang on to a bit of it?

Not really, did it at school but as long as you weren't drowning and could get across the width of the pool that was about it unless you were good enough to merit more attention/coaching. Never learnt front crawl.

Almost identical story here. Took me ages, alternating between strokes as you do, but eventually it all clicked. I watched a few youtube videos about technique, adjusted as per instruction, then - as confidence grows, and you are more slipstreamed and sure - your breathing will become more regulated and deeper. I found it to be a cumulative effect. I take air usually on every third stroke, ie alternate sides. ymmv

Now I can't be bothered with breast stroke and have to remember to mix it up a bit! The stronger and smoother you become, the more enjoyable it is. IME.

Can't help you with the inevitable boredom though ;). Oh yeah - swim outdoors!

[i]Can't help you with the inevitable boredom though [/i]

Oh, I can : Get in the sea! (literally) 🙂

Sneaky edit malvernrider!

It's not boring for me yet so I'll worry about that later!

My wife swims in the loch a couple of times a week, so outdoor swimming is on the cards once I'm a bit more comfortable with it in the pool.

A breath every third stroke feels good, every second one seems to make me a bit squint in the water. Four is ok too until I start tiring, which is quite quickly.

Sneaky edit malvernrider!

I try to watch other swimmers and it looks like they get to about a 45° angle with their shoulders looking head on. Is that about right?

Theres no right way for everyone, some people will be head straight down, others sighting forward. 45. deg is a good place to start though, and will make breathing easier (than having your head straight down). If you can start to rotate your head backwards (looking at your shoulder) that will also help - you'll start to breathe in the lea of your head and will have longer to draw breath.

Its worth persevering with, once you get the breathing nailed you can start to think about everything else.
Im a big advocate of swim smooth (and the bubble bubble breathe technique - say it to yourself while swimming) While you're head is under water you should be exhaling, above water, inhaling.

I did a 61 minute IM swim using just the swim smooth book - it can be done on your own!

To be honest, getting in the sea is probably not a good idea for the op just yet... them ol' waves make it even more knackering.

Sorry, I meant looking at their shoulders from head on the rotation seems to be about 45° from horizontal. I know what you mean about looking back slightly, I've noticed that that makes a difference.

It's a way off dez, there isn't a n off the shelf wetsuit big enough - saving up for a custom one 😀

As well as swim smooth you also have Total Immersion. Certainly worth a look, works for me.

I try to swim smoothly but do find that going too slow makes it harder work - is that normal?

If by swimming slowly you are referring to that stalled feeling as your legs drop and you are no longer gliding along on the surface then yes it will get harder. It takes pretty good technique to be able to swim very slowly and still maintain an efficient position along the top of the water.

Upper body rotation. I'm quite good at keeping my head still and straight

Breathing - A test for you. Go for a jog (or ride a bike) at the same physical intensity as you are exerting yourself swimming. Then do it and erratically breath (try holding it in for a few seconds the breathing out in a burst then quickly gulping in). Tell me you are not out of breath! The secret to swimming for long distances without getting out of breath is to engineer your swimming so your are breathing as naturally as possible. Bilateral breathing is all well and good and the ability to breath both sides is important but its not the be all and end all. Did you watch any of the european champs last week? I defy you to find a race where at least 3 or more are not breathing unilaterally or at least mixing it up. Watch a youtube clip of aussie 1500m legend Grant Hackett - almost completely unilateral breathing (switching sides from time to time). Try breathing 2 on one side, swimming 3 strokes then twice on the other and see if it helps. As you get more efficient and relaxed you might be able to go true bilateral but don't sweat it.

Oh and think about pointing your toes towards the other end of the pool rather than the bottom. So many 'beginners' do this - like a massive water brake dragging your legs down. And once your legs are screwed the whole thing is shafted.

My wife does epic swims. I tried to learn a bit for a triathlon. Basic tips that worked for me were.

Look at the floor directly below you not where you are going.

Slow down

Bubble bubble bubble breathe. Apart from I just count in my head as I'm a big boy.

Looking at the floor made the biggest difference. I went from 4 lengths and knackered to 400m and still going happily (bored as hell) in about 4 20min lunchtime sessions.

Found it really helped on the bike due to the upper body and core workout

Stop alternate breathing. Just breathe on one side or breathe two or three times on one side then two or three times the other side.

You need a glide phase just like breast stroke. Start the recovery of the other arm while still gliding and during the catch which will give you plenty of time to breathe in. The rest of the time breathe out slowly but fully.

If by swimming slowly you are referring to that stalled feeling as your legs drop and you are no longer gliding along on the surface then yes it will get harder.

Exactly that. Points noted re the breathing too.

Look at the floor directly below you not where you are going

That's interesting because the main thing the instructor got me to do in my one lesson was look ahead a bit, to help me get my head turned to breathe. Maybe it was the height of my head in the water that was the problem and it was too low, and the advice to look forward a bit was to remedy that rather than an objective in itself?

Bubble bubble bubble breathe. Apart from I just count in my head as I'm a big boy.

Except counting in your head doesn't get the air out of your lungs for a beginner. I'm at the stage of shouting at the bottom of the pool at the moment just to get the air out before the next breath. Years or cycling and running means I automatically take very deep breaths and getting it all out when swimming is tough. Getting there though.

Stop alternate breathing.

Why's that?

You need a glide phase just like breast stroke. Start the recovery of the other arm while still gliding and during the catch which will give you plenty of time to breathe in.

By this do you mean get one arm back to the start before pulling with the other arm, i.e. have a moment of two arms outstretched between each stroke, or at least don't start the next stroke as soon as the other arm comes out, leave it forward for a bit.

Actually yes, alternate breathing means breathing every third stroke. At first all I could do was breathe every other stroke. To even up the strain on my neck I'd always look at the same side of the pool, in other words alternating each length.

What THM says is very true - once I started breathing out underwater I could just swim easily, I was doing 1500 within three weeks whereas previously I struggled to put three lengths together. I am no superstar, cant breathe asymmetcally, just one side every cycle - never gone to the next stage of increasing pace.

I'm not a good front crawler but I tend to breathe one one side only every other stroke, going for big breaths and slow releases. Used to love swimming (non competitively), found it very therapeutic as is all about efficiency. Particularly used to like doing underwater Brest stroke, long glides and slow action and could do well over a length of 50m pool

I certainly wouldn't advocate head down looking at the floor tiles. You'll have to rotate your head further to bring your mouth out the water. try different things and see what works for you.

And I'd counter van Halen's point about gliding - it's wasted time, SS advocates higher cadence to remove the dead spot in your stroke.

Obviously everyone's technique will vary sight, and there's more than one philosophy. As you're not having lessons I'd choose a swim style You like the look of and stick with that.

Look at the floor directly below you not where you are going.

This is a 'core' mantra to the total immersion concept. The Paul Newsome swimsmooth camp think very differently (see also the gliding philosophy). It's not great to mix the two. TI is now pretty out of favour in the triathlon world as it doesn't transfer to open water swimming particularly well.

The recovering arm will come past your head as you finish the glide/catch and start to pull with the leading arm. Don't be like two blades of a propeller opposite each other. A good exercise is to start a length touching your hands out in front before doing a complete pull and recovery with each arm alternately - then progressively return to normal swimming. At some point you'll find your recovering arm coming past your head as you catch and pull with the other.

Stop alternate breathing (no explanation, just do it).

Ok I get the arm thing - no windmilling!

So when do I breathe? Just whenever I want, rather than sticking to a set pattern?

When you're learning just breathe on one side during the start and middle of the arm recovery, if you're right handed on the right every time your arm comes back. Then when you can swim lots of lengths on one side learn to swim on the other side. When you are happy breathing all on the left and all on the right then start to swap from time to time. In a triathlon the only time I breathe on the left is when waves are coming from the right or there is an aggressive swimmer who risks knocking my goggles off.

There are lots of similarities between SS and TI in terms of core concepts. I like them both! But SS is more flexible than TI - there use to be brilliant debates (!) on TriTalk between Paul and the sadly late Ian who ran TI in the UK.

They both had great things to say but sadly the lack of flexibility from TI led to slanging matches that would make STW big hitters proud.

One of the most heated exchanges was on whether TI was suitable to open water swimming!!

I still mix techniques from both. FWIW I think TI is great but can lead to a plateau or what SS calls over-gliding. That's me in spades.

Ha yes TriTalk swim threads were epic. Never tried swim smooth as I said but never had a problem with open water swimming.

I thought I could swim so I entered a triathlon. Turns out sculling across the hotel pool to retrieve another mohito wasn't adequate preparation. Took 8 weeks of going 3 times a week but got through it ok taken Years to get to alternate side breathing and any semblance of form but am an intermittent trainer. Its REALLY hard for what seems like forever but 8-12 weeks and you'll really start to click

Once you can comfortably crawl for a good few lengths start doing some 'intervals/sprints' that brings you on a bit and makes it a bit less boring

Thanks. I look at the folk gliding effortlessly up and down and feel very envious. But like I say, I couldn't do it at all 3 months ago. I'm sure I'll get there.

Swim some back crawl too if the pool isn't too busy. You don't have to think about breathing, windmilling is fine and you can think about what your legs are doing.

Every time I see someone doing backstroke it reminds me of Mr Bean at the nightclub.

Look at the Swim Smooth stuff. Look at the Total Immersion stuff. Each are at slightly different ends of a philosophical swimming spectrum.

Try to find something in between the two 'camps'. Embrace the glide - but not too much, or you'll get dead spots. Remember that the only thing pushing you forwards is your limbs - when they are perpendicular to you. Don't windmill downwards, push backwards. And try to make rest of you into a torpedo. Everything else is drag.

Water is 1000 times more dense than air.

Keep your feet and legs high in the water on this basis. If you are a cyclist with heavy legs then (like me) your tail will probably have a tendency to sink - and act like a parachute in the water.

Don't get hung up on obtaining the 'perfect' stroke, or rotating 'enough'. I find my stroke varies throughout each session. Sometimes it's short and grabby when I haven't warmed up enough, other times it's long and glidey, with more rotation, when I'm tired. Neither are 'wrong' they're just appropriate to my general levels of warmed upness or fatigue at that time.

I swim best when relaxed and I'm not actually concentrating too hard on stroke perfection. Then it feels like flying, of sorts. Sometimes I'm not even sure how or why, when I hit these effortless sweetspots.

Practice. Lots. I've been at this for 10 years - and I'm still not there! However, I know that if someone chucked me off a boat 3km out to sea, I could happily swim back to shore though, which is pretty cool to know in itself...

Once you are confident in your abilities, then take to the open water, man. It's a wonderful use of a talent that is largely wasted doing laps in the pool.

STW LOVES a swimming thread... 🙂

IME as someone who swims a lot, both for fitness and for Lifesaving, SS is too fussy about technique. Arms and hands in S shapes, alternate breathing. It's all too much for someone struggling with the breathing.

I was, and still am, crap at racing front crawl. Too many years focusing on other Lifesaving strokes. Especially head up out of the water sprint crawl. The revelation for me was TI. Slow everything down, 15-17 strokes for a 25m pool. Breathing out steadily over 4 strokes, I've got big cyclist / swimmers lungs, breathing on one side only, whichever side feels natural. Look at the bottom of the pool, then on the breath stroke, roll towards the ceiling, intake of breath, pull with your leading arm, whilst your trailing arm is coming over the top. Slow, steady windmill on the breath stroke. Then rotate back to facing the bottom.

It's not fast, it's no good for triathlon, but it teaches you to be calm and comfortable in the water.

Take a look at the Navy SEAL combat side stroke video, it shows the roll to breathe technique, although it's on a modified side stroke, it's very close.

Thanks for all the tips, lots of things to try. One at a time of course.

Everyone knows Butterfly is the metro sexual expression of manhood.

Sooty to disagree but

SS and TI are not at ever end of any spectrum. Naraly every school of swimming has the same basic principles at their core. Paul (SS) and Ian (TI) agreed on that point

SS DOES NOT TEACH THE S-SHAPED PULL far from it they are anti it

SS adapts its training for different types of swimmers and is the more flexible of the two IMO but you can easily incorporate both - I have done for years

"Triahtlon Swimming made Easy" was an early buy for me - TI works very well for triathlon and for OW swimming - Terry L's own record proves that

I return to TI to get coordination back, to reduce SPL and to improve my timing - the risks are that I end up over gliding and peaking in terms of speed. Having said that there is something great about overtaking someone in the next lane when taking 25% less strokes. There is a golden moment with TI when arms and bodies are coordinated and there is a turbo-like surge which is effortless

SS has more all round advice, tips that are specific to my style (an over glider trying to be mr smooth!!) and sensible advice re the balance between stroke rate, effort and efficiency. Paul and Adam are also top guys who are generous with their time and advice.

Build your swim endurance .. consciously think about streamlining.. forehead on the water line (ish)... toes pointed (toes pointing at the pool floor can increase drag by 25%) high elbows (that means elbows higher than your wrists).. pull straight back, not down (physically touch your leg with your thumb at the end of each stroke) once you can comfortably swim 400m non stop, front crawl, then you have a base to start looking at stroke efficiency, breathing, head/body position..

Don't get hung up on bilateral breathing (breathe on 3 or 5).. just breathe every stroke to the same side (have a look at countless you tube videos of olympic endurance swimmers breathing every stroke, to the same side) and when you breathe, make sure only one eye tilts out of the water.. breathe as soon as your arm is fully extended out in front of you..

Stick at it! Swimming efficiently is hard.. not something you will just 'pick up' .. good luck!

Cheers

There's lots of swim coaching videos on the internet...once you've mastered it (and I think you should master breathing on both sides and not just one side), and all it takes is practice, you'll find it easy. Once you have the technique you won't find it particularly tiring....well worth learning...a mile of front crawl is excellent exercise and body toning...

http://tower26.com/t26-blog/

Listen to some of the podcasts too, very informative.

Try a pull buoy, stick it between your legs and swim. Not need to think about legs then. You can concentrate on breathing and arm position.

Don't glide.

I started swimming 2 years ago and only now do I feel comfortable swimming without running out of breathe.

Edit. Bi lateral breathing isn't all that.

Biggest tip that helped me sort out my breathing was to look at my hand as it goes behind me and out of the water - as you do this your head turns naturally allowing you time to breath in (after you've just breathed out under water).

Also try and swim more than once a week, for me twice a week is a enough to see an improvement rather than once a week which just about keeps things ticking over

You don't need to bilateral breath but it does mean you can then swim safely in open water. Personally I'd make the effort to learn a swimming technique that is the most transferrable to all water environments.

Biggest tip that helped me sort out my breathing was to look at my hand as it goes behind me and out of the water - as you do this your head turns naturally allowing you time to breath in (after you've just breathed out under water).

That's easy to remember, so I'll give that a try.

Is there a downside to bilateral breathing or is it more just a case of not getting too hung about doing it?

Watch any good distance swimmer and they have a short glide with their lead arm extended before their hand dips (catch) and they pull. That corresponds to the start of the recovery of the other arm. Miss this glide, however short it may be, and you'll find yourself "windmilling" in the words of the OP and your legs sinking.

[url=

the girl nearest camera at 5:53[/url]

The problem with advice (mine included) is that you can fill you mind with too much.

Keep it v simple at this point otherwise you will not enjoy swimming

To quieten the mind I would

Do some simple stroke counting. Try to swim in <20 lengths for 25 metres and keep the same rate (I use 16/17). Forget anything else. Its relaxing but also very informative when you realise how quickly your efficiency slips.

Plus some bubble, bubble breathe - if bi-lateral breathing is hard just adapt to every stroke or every four etc. It doesnt matter - just BREATHE OUT!!

I like simple 🙂

The thing is, I'm not finding the bilateral breathing particularly hard - not saying my breathing technique is great, I'm sure it's not hence the questions on that, but I've reached a point where I don't really mind which side I go for. I could perhaps work on breathing out more continuously between breaths rather than saving it for the second half of the face-in-the-water time.

p.s. dont worry about head down, head forward. Horses for courses.

I think that is a great idea - have I mentioned BREATHE OUT 😉

The SS boys videoed our breathing, I thought I breathed out all the time. But the bubbles (or lack of them) showed otherwise. I was holding my breath like you at the start and then a more aggressive but still incomplete exhale later. Hence BBB technique!!

When I need to quieten the mind - ie, at the moment - i slip back into stroke counting. Its very relaxing and almost zen like!!

You're not finding bilateral hard but it's depriving you of air. The girl in the vid I linked breathes once on the left then three times of the right.

Watch the girl in the vid as she comes into the turn at 6:06, breathing out the whole time her face is under water.

Bilateral breathing is a good idea to avoid any kind of muscular imbalance / repetitive stress injury etc. Probably not an issue if you're only going swimming twice a week, but still worth doing. The pros only breathe on one side when racing, but I'd be very surprised if most of them didn't breathe bilaterally while training.

Don't try to fix everything at once. There's a lot of things happening when you swim.

Breathing is key. You can't do much if you aren't breathing! So focus on that, and steady smooth stroke, not tryiing to go fast or hard. Pull buoy is good as you can forget about your legs and it helps you feel what it should feel like.

I try to be smooth and not make lots of splash, work with the water and not fight it. The old ladies breast stroking in the pool don't tut at you either if you don't splash them

Its likely that your legs are creating a lot of drag either sinking or possibly scissoring depending on what is happening at the front of the stroke. they will provide very little propulsion but use a lot of effort. As has been mentioned try swimming with a pull bouy, and focus on the arms going in and pushing forward towards the end of the pool as they enter the water. The reduced effort from not kicking will make breathing and swimming further easier and more relaxed. Also when you get outside swimming If you use a wetsuit the buoyancy of the wetsuit will make a huge difference to your swimming.

If I'm honest, my legs pretty much do their own thing - sometimes not doing much, sometimes going at it like the clappers. I suspect this is not ideal and it's no surprise that this may be using a lot of energy. Is a pull bouy the figure of eight shaped thing?

Yes a pull buoy is the figure of eight shaped float! Get yourself down to Decathlon for a cheap one and pick up a kickboard whilst you are there.
I can swim much faster with a pull buoy it gives you an idea of where your legs should be and lets you straighten out your feet so they are parallel with the water surface.

[after the lovely effect of the pull bouy ^ try the opposite - tie an old inner tube loosely round your ankles and swim - watch your legs sink if you are overgliding. Its horrible!! - for a few months time that one!!]

Just shows why it's worth asking - I thought they were to make it harder on your arms by removing any propulsion your legs might give, not to help because you can forget about your legs!

Oh my, what a perfect day for swimming in the sea! Sorry, doesn't help with the thread, but just thought I'd tell ya 😀
Yeah, that buoyancy of the wetsuit thing took me by surprise the first time - my legs were lift higher than I was used to and combined with not having a hat , so trying to keep my head up, it was jolly uncomfortable. Probably could have got away without the wetsuit today. It's lovely down here.

The problem with swimming in a 25m pool is that by the time you start to feel the effects of poor technique you're nearly at the end of the pool so you can fake it to get to the wall. Then you recover and you swim another ropey 25m length. Swimming in a 50m pool you get both to feel when you're losing form and to correct it on the hoof. That's when I started to make progress.

Look at the floor directly below you not where you are going.
This is a 'core' mantra to the total immersion concept. The Paul Newsome swimsmooth camp think very differently (see also the gliding philosophy). It's not great to mix the two. TI is now pretty out of favour in the triathlon world as it doesn't transfer to open water swimming particularly well.

thats odd - my wife was trained on a open water swim course. and the ironman people i know also recommend this approach. it differs a bit in open water as you dont have a big black line to follow and generally you have more boyancy due to a wetsuit so getting legs a bit lower is a benefit.

anyway each to their own. i found it helps lift teh legs and keep you more streamlined while i flail aimlessly with my arms. I dont have a problem breathing. you rotate your upper body and you face is pretty much at surface.

i imagine everyones physiology and flexibility has an impact on what works for them.

Swimming in a 50m pool

Yes.. you get to 25m and start gasping, then you realise you have quite a long way left to go!

Well I got one of those pull bouys and had a go with it today. Didn't feel like my legs were that high really, but it's hard to tell. I do have Hoy style legs so maybe the float was overpowered a bit? Anyway, it was definitely useful, although at times I did feel like my hips and/or legs were waggling about a bit rather than staying in a straightish line.

although at times I did feel like my hips and/or legs were waggling about a bit rather than staying in a straightish line.

Need to work on core stability then

That sounds a bit sit-uppy 🙁

I have the largest pull buoy I could find (most are rather small) and hold it between my ankles. That gets me reasonably flat.

The straight body thing comes with practice, you might not realise how much your leg movements have been correcting for a poor arm stroke (that's what I found, anyway).

Only skimmed the thread but would agree re pull buoy, when I was learning using one gave me more 'brain space' to concentrate on technique and breathing.

I'd also split up swimming into 50's and 100's (metres) with 15-30 sec rest between to allow you to recover and focus on your form/technique.

Good luck, it takes years bit it's worth it. I didn't learn 'properly' till I was 20 and it took me 3-4 years to get good-ish. 18 yrs later I love open long water swimming sessions.

Perseverance then 🙂