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Unless i have missed something, which is quite likely.
Just find it odd, one of the worst cases of a massacre of ones own civilians, over 500 dead, long term unrest and issues ahead and it just doesn't seem to make it in to every day conversation? Why is that?
Were they playing football last night?
What tyres for endless sand?
Seems like a text book example of how to start a civil war.
Well done.
What's to say that hasn't been said? Unless you have some scintillating new insight to present, then further discussion is largely pointless.
It's going the same way as Syria. Is there anyone who doesn't think this?
I think anyone with half a brain knows its nowt to do with us, and we should stay well out of it. Its a no win siuation
The only thing we should be thinking about contributing to the region is this....
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....then start from scratch once the radiation has cleared. They're all mental! The lot of 'em!
So we've discussed at length the massacre of 500+people, the onset of civil war, the wider communities reluctance to get involved? I'm not saying people have too, it just intrigues me why, compared to say Joan leaves £500k to the conservatives or some stuntman dies in a wingsuit outfit, this news is completly awful and deplorable yet as a western nation people largely don't seem to give two sh*ts.
What's new?
A dose of Dear Leader is all they need ... errmmm ... hang-on they just got rid of him (I am referring to the first one and not the one from Muslamic party.). 😯 Now, all of them are fighting to be a Dear Leader.
Forget about Western DEMONcracy because that does not suit their way of life. 🙄
I think anyone with half a brain knows its nowt to do with us, and we should stay well out of it.
Is it not? Like with Syria, as an international community our duty is to stand by and report on humanitarian crisis and massacre rather than doing something about it? Is protection of others not in our mandate?
Maybe? Seems to be the default position unless you are weak, defenceless and bathing in fossil fuels.
So what are [i]you[/i] doing about it LHS? (other than posting on a mountain bike forum)
Typical response scotroutes, but that's not what I am referring to. Quite simply, I am intrigued why people don't give two s**ts. Have we just given up caring about the middle-east? Do we see this type of bloodshed as everyday life? Is it an accepted norm?
scotroutes - MemberSo what are you doing about it LHS? (other than posting on a mountain bike forum)
He should convert or die ... 😈
yet as a western nation people largely don't seem to give two sh*ts.
Unfortunately, it's when the West decides it gives two shits that things really get ugly, or hasn't our ill-advised intrusions into Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan taught you that.
Or haven't you been paying attention to what George Dubya and Princess Tony's expeditions led to?
They all need there heads banging together.
Did we go into Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan on humanitarian missions?
What is different from Egypt and Syria to Libya? (I don't need an answer by the way!)
[quote=LHS ]Typical response scotroutes, but that's not what I am referring to. Quite simply, I am intrigued why people don't give two s**ts. Have we just given up caring about the middle-east? Do we see this type of bloodshed as everyday life? Is it an accepted norm?
A bit of the latter. I think most folk in the UK are fed up hearing about yet another Middle Eastern "conflagration",especially as there are never any goodies involved, just two different sets of baddies. Surely better to wait until the dust settles and then try to get on with whoever is left standing.
Did we go into Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan on humanitarian missions?
No
Have we just given up caring about the middle-east?
Count me out of that blanket accusation. I've never cared about the middle-east.
Until it reaches Sharm or Hurgada pretty much nothing will be said/done, apart from some UN "don't do that" statement, Soon as it hits the diving spots it'll stop or West (sharm) and Russia (Hurgada) will rattle some sabres.
LHS - MemberTypical response scotroutes, but that's not what I am referring to. Quite simply, I am intrigued why people don't give two s**ts. Have we just given up caring about the middle-east?
I think a lot of people care but have no idea what to do to help.
I'm not sure it is a case of no one giving two hoots OP. I'm not sure what can be achieved apart from some gratuitous hand wringing as another Middle Eastern country goes down the Swannee.
Someone on the TV the other night reported on the events and suggested the problem was that the (at least) Egyptian take on democracy was 'winner takes all' hence the chap representing the Muslim Brotherhood was allegedly turning the country into a proto Islamic theocracy and 'everyone else can go hang' (to quote another Dear Leader) whereas the Army, and significant portions of the populace, favour a more secular approach. Whether the army's position is at all influenced by the amount of aid received from the US is a moot point but, it seems they want this to be the national model and the Muslim Brotherhood can 'go hang'.
So....their respective socio-political stances are quite polarised.
Quite what we might achieve by debating it or interfering (as a nation) is beyond me. Two camps with intractable difference, both seemingly with a predilection for violence as a means to an end..... IMHO best to keep out of it.
I think a lot of people care but have no idea what to do to help.
In a nutshell, Northwind is on the money... the general population are sympathetic to the human element, however, the governments and the powers that be are invariably only interested if it is to their strategic advantage, either in expanding military might and power base, or in harvesting of resources.
What can we do?
Provide aid? To whom?
Provide weapons? To whom?
Send in troops? To do what ?
Do nothing it makes good tv?
Im not sure what you are suggesting LHS
Egypt's army is the largest in Africa and the middle east, they control most of teh construction and heavy industry in the country and a large chunk of the economy, we (the west) have supplied them with a ridiculous amount of state of the art weaponry
Morsi was looking like a bit of an islamist autocrat so it was fine when the military ousted him, but then it turns out that a lot of egyptians want to live in an islamic autocracy
so now the military have started killing his supporters and it seems that lot of egyptians are fine with this too, including a lot of the egyptian media
vince cable has already stopped exports of 'some' military stuff to egypt but weve already sent them so much it makes little difference now
its such a ridiculous cluster**** that I dont think anyone has any solutions, joan 500000 on the other hand is a lot less complicated and people are happier to post about it
I'm showing I care by flying there for some sun, sea, sand and smoke grenades this weekend.
Unfortunately that type of bloodshed is the everyday norm in a lot of countries in the middle east LHS!
Egypt is going the same way as Syria.....it's very hard to pick a side when they are both off the scale crazy!! I'm sure people do care, but ultimately what can we do? In an ideal world we'd nip over there with our chums from the U S of A with our huge resources and create a utopia where everyone lived happily ever after.
The reality is, the only reason we'll ever 'nip' over somewhere is if there is money to he made....and when we do, far from creating a utopia with our huge resources, we send poorly equipped kids from the bottom few percent of the nation in terms of social aspirations. Half of them get blown to bits, the other half come back with post traumatic stress disorder and hundred of thousands of innocent civilians are killed in bombing campaigns that devestate the country we are supposed to be helping, keeping them in the third world for the next few generations.
Then a few years down the line the bloke that leads us to war will get a job as peace envoy for the area that he has war mongered in for years, earn more in a year than the GDP of said war shattered country, and then write the majority of that income off as 'expenses'.
Let's just leave Egypt alone, they don't need the type of 'help' we offer. Lets also hope that the innocent people killed have gone to a more peaceful place.
Rant over!
Did we go into Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan on humanitarian missions?
Well, arguably Kuwait, to drive out the nasty invaders.
eeek!
LHS has conned us into discussing it! 😯
I get the impression that whilst the western powers are probbly quite happy that the islamic uprising is being suppressed, they are concerned about the spread of instability through the region.
Lets be honest, 500 dead? Horrible and terrible though it is, American and British fired ordanance killed far more civilians in Iraq. The expressions of dismay and regret eminating from the British Government are no more than expressions of dismay that it has been so public and will likely force their hand in costly and unprofitable inventions in the near future.
Any country that is so driven/governed by such an unforgiving religion is ****ed.
Send in tony that will sort em out.
[quote=Dobbo ][s]Any country that is so driven/governed by such an unforgiving[/s] religion is ****.
Cut to the chase!
Its the price that is put on human collatoral which baffles me. Why would a default stance from western nations be not to just stop all aid? Without doing nothing, it effectively says we are ok with the bloodshed, that level of deaths is acceptable as its the norm in the middle east, whilst a few hundred miles away we are sipping cocktails on the Red Sea.
Strange how low a worth is placed on human life nowadays, i know its probably always been that way but my (deluded?) expectation is that it should get better not worse.
yossarian - MemberLets be honest, 500 dead
500 dead is only the official figure, the reality could be a lot more
parkesie - Member
Send in tony that will sort em out.
hes already been there, cant you tell... some have claimed he legitimised al-sisi's coup by claiming there were 17million anti-morsi demontrators on teh street (when in reality was probably 10 times less)
and a major complaint of the Muslim Brotherhood has been that many senior political leaders eg David Cameron and John Kerry were happy to denounce Morsi and very evasive when questioned about the coup refusing to condem Al-Sisi and that this has emboldened him to the point where hes happy to have a few hundred (thousand?) men women and children killed to send a message
Just puzzled by Binners, not sure how you are going to stop genocide by dropping an atom bomb? Surely that's just acheiving it on a bigger scale.
Middle east has been trouble right back into biblical times, so now sure why anyone thinks it will be any different now.
Yes it's going to end in civil war, yes we will probably be involved somewhere possibly supplying arms in the background to the side that the our current governemnt thinks will help them.
If you were sat having a pint, and the two biggest blokes in the pub, both known psychopaths, and both known to have serious back up from interested 3rd parties, squared up to each other, produced knives, then started taking chunks out of each, what would you do then? Intervene? Or keep your head down until they'd finished
That is where we are
The trouble with revolutions is they keep revolving.
America is in love with its own ideal of a revolution that creates a stable long lasting democratic government.
The trouble is they seldom happen that way.
Throughout history revolutions have involved either removing a dictator and replacing him with another murderous despot or a counter revolution that brings us back to square one only with more bodies
Since Egypt became an independent nation it has struggled to balance secular rule with the more extremist factions within its population, so sadly the violence we are seeing now was largely inevitable.
What's to be done? Nothing unfortunately beyond sending aid
I'm guessing you are suggesting i pull a rather nice firearm out of my pocket and shoot the pair of them, offering to pump the followers full of lead before continuing to finish my packet of crisps and glass of coke?
That'd work, yeah. Or you could get up and leave, then call in an air strike 😀