[Closed] So my bro got caught speeding

Aracer

The first time I was caught I came over the brow of the hill, clocked the van as soon as it came into sight (it was in a layby quite some distance away, I could certainly have stopped in a fraction of that distance) and put the anchors on. The speed on the notice was 85mph, which was the speed I'd been doing. There's no way the van had me in sight for several seconds - it was capturing the speed as cars came into sight. TBH some of your comments on the tech are pretty spurious - it doesn't take several seconds to average multiple readings.

Playing Devils advocate for a moment:

You came over the blind brow of hill, where you couldn't see the approaching road to the point where it completely "hid" an entire large, brightly colored van, whilst doing well in excess of the speed limit (if they nabbed you for a true 85, your speedo will have been indicating significantly >85), with no prior idea as to what was on the other side (other than it was clear yesterday.....)?

In which case you deserve everything you got 😉

I'm thinking this is another one which falls into "all scenarios are the same as the ones I have experience of".

I was kinda wondering this. Technology moves on, it's a while since I last read up on it and I don't know specifics about modern [s]speed trap[/s] safety camera vans but it's plausible that it's different now from when MT had his experience. Could be exactly the same too, of course.

Radar specs, there are hand-held and fixed on the website too for anyone interested.

The sampling rate is 100 speed samples per second.

Around here some traffic lights have cameras so that is regularly monitored. The gendarmes fly drones too, notably over the N10 to catch tail-gating trucks and dangerous behaviour of any kind. Road blocks with drug/alcohol tests are used. The local police often hang out around "STOP" signs and fine people who don't. Sometimes they hang out on a roundabouts and fine people for refusing priority, using the phone, eating/smoking. Madame got a warning for having her feet up on the dash as a passenger.

Speed is far from the only thing policed.

Experience + Proven Skill = Safe Driving

No. You have t be applying that skill at any given moment. Just because you can pass an advanced test does NOT mean you will be driving safely an attentively all the time.

My point is that if you allow qualified advanced drivers to drive faster (which seems to be what you are suggesting) then they still make mistakes and will still be carrying the more energy when they crash.

I've been told that in Germany on the Autobahn there aren't more accidents than in other countries, but when they happen they are much worse. I can't back that up though.

[quote=maxtorque ]You came over the blind brow of hill, where you couldn't see the approaching road to the point where it completely "hid" an entire large, brightly colored van, whilst doing well in excess of the speed limit (if they nabbed you for a true 85, your speedo will have been indicating significantly >85), with no prior idea as to what was on the other side (other than it was clear yesterday.....)?
In which case you deserve everything you got

😆 - well your powers of observation are such that you didn't notice I anticipated such a criticism! I'll let you go back and find it - I thought it was fairly obvious.

Though the speedo over-reading is yet another "all things are like my experience". As with all cars I own, I'd calibrated the speedo in that car, and it barely over-read at all - clearly the case because it was only indicating 85 or 86. Sure that's significantly in excess of the limit, but it seems interesting for you to criticise me for only doing 85...

[quote=Edukator ]The sampling rate is 100 speed samples per second.

Quite. Though I'm surprised it's that low - I have no specific experience of police speed measuring equipment, but I've worked with radar on military stuff with sampling rates much higher than that - typical kit I've worked with was providing [b]averaged [/b]readings thousands of times a second.

You find I posted a link with the autobahn stats a few apges back, Molgrips. The unlimited sections have a much higher accident rate than teh limited sections. Given that it is the low risk sections that have been left unlimited the stats are damning. Higher speed equals more accidents and deaths on low risk sections than on lmited section with more hazards and often higher traffic density.

There's debate on the subject in Germany and the motor industry has "voluntarily" limited cars to 250kmh to appease the politicians. I can't see it lasting though and will personally welcome not having idiots flying past trucks with a 150kmh speed difference. It's madness. I hitch-hiked with a couple along an unlimited section late one Summer in an old Merc (to keep the anecdote haters happy I'll add that they had Ry Cooder's Get Rythme in the cassette player), it was late Summer with showers. Three cars overtook audilby flat out, 911 etc.. The driver quipped "see you soon" and explained there was a curve left before long and we'd probaly see them there, we did, including a rapidly depreciated 911.

It's madness.

It is.

The first time I was caught I came over the brow of the hill ... TBH some of your comments on the tech are pretty spurious - it doesn't take several seconds to average multiple readings.

My experience tells me that that's a typical spot for mobile speed cameras to sit. Now your experience tells you the same (hopefully). There are other "typical spots" but i'll leave you to discover them for yourself 😀

Regarding the several seconds thing - depends on the equipment used. Radar cameras need at few seconds to get a reading that'll stand up in court. Laser cameras take less than a second - not sure which one is used in the back of vans

As with all cars I own, I'd calibrated the speedo in that car

I'm sure it isn't, but you know when you read something and it just instantly comes across as colossal bollocks?

I'm sure it does - probably should have used quotes as it clearly wasn't formally calibrated, but I knew how much it over-read (nowadays it's easy to do with GPS, but even without you can use motorway markers to calibrate the odo and then use that combined with a stopwatch when travelling at a constant speed to calibrate the speedo). It's interesting to have the information, and at least with the cars I've owned the speedo hasn't ever read as much over as popular opinion seems to suggest.

That's what I thought, and likewise most of my cars haven't over-read by much.

but even without you can use motorway markers to calibrate the odo and then use that combined with a stopwatch when travelling at a constant speed to calibrate the speedo

as a passenger, obviously... 😉

Self entitled people will speed and tell you at length why they think they are ok to do so. Of course should you choose to ignore the speed limit resulting in any detrimental impact on them I'm confident they'll support your right too.

Madame got a warning for having her feet up on the dash as a passenger.

Why, out of interest? Safety issue in the event of an accident / passenger airbag?

Why, out of interest?

My money's on no panties

Safety issue in the event of an accident

The "advanced driver" tag irritates, I'd rather be in the passenger seat with Madame driving than any advanced driver......

..... I can relax and fall asleep in the passenger seat. It's like being driven by a chauffeur (I have been driven by a professional chauffeur in a big Merc so feel well placed to compare)

So, just to be clear..

You’d rather be in the passenger seat with your wife driving rather than someone with advanced driver training, and the logic behind that is..... that she drives like someone with advanced driver training. 😆

Ok, that makes sense.

So what I take from many of this opinions in this thread are:

- If anybody breaks the speed limit at any point they are a self entitled maniac with no social conscience - apparently this can even be back-dated to when a speed limit was higher on a certain road.

- Advanced driver training is useless.

- Some people label their (what I assume to be?) 'other half' as madame (WFT?) and they drive at a glacial pace but thats good as it helps one to sleep on a long journey.

- There are a lot of frightened drivers out there who have very little confidence / abiliy (delete where appropriate) behind the wheel but thats OK because if they are under the speed limit there is no risk to anybody else.

I am thankful that the people of the STW forum make up a very tiny percentage of the population, but then every car related thread takes a predictable tone on here in the same way that every cyclist thread does on somewhere like pistonheads.

You missed:

- it's safe to drive at 120mph if you're an advanced driver

amongst other similar proclamations

Cougar - Moderator

Madame's driving is nothing special but she's cautious, humble, considerate, careful, concentrated and slow. [Edukator]

That sounds terrifying TBQH

Please do explain why this terrifies you, as I don’t understand. I do not drive, but as a pedestrian, cyclist and occasional passenger, I would far rather share the road with someone who drives in this manner, than someone who drives recklessly, inconsiderately, distracted and fast - they’re the people who worry me.

Some people label their (what I assume to be?) 'other half' as madame (WFT?)

He's French, this is customary.

There are a lot of frightened drivers out there who have very little confidence / abiliy (delete where appropriate) behind the wheel but thats OK because if they are under the speed limit there is no risk to anybody else.

Wot?

does anyone in modland keeps stats on this stuff - have we passed the post count of the legendary surfmat / brake-test epics of the late noughties ?

There are a lot of frightened drivers out there who have very little confidence / abiliy (delete where appropriate) behind the wheel but thats OK because if they are under the speed limit there is no risk to anybody else.

There are some who equate careful and considerate with frightened or lack of confidence. There are those that are arrogant and entitled when it comes to their cars.

This is pure STW gold. Thanks folks!

Note on speed "guns":

Sampling rate is NOT the rate at which it calculates and returns the "true speed" for the target vehicle. Sampling rate is the maximum rate at which it can Transmit and Receive the Radar or Lidar onto the target. Various complex maths and science mean that to get a legal "true" speed (one that will stand up in court) that basic sample rate must be low pass filtered and gated to get a robust average true speed over the measurement period, and that period, is, typically around 1 to 2 sec.

For those geeks who want to know more, Radar and Lidar use coherent narrow band emissions, and monitors the back scatter from the transmitted wave for doppler shift (phase information). From that, the system can calculate the likely velocity of the object it is targeted at.
However, the real world is not a laboratory, effects such as angular alignment, phase interference, and the fact that as the range to target increases the effective width of the "Beam" grows, meaning local dynamic effects (such as the beam moving quickly between say the front bumper and the windscreen, a distance of about 1m) must be catered for.

To avoid a single erroneous measurement causing an "Unsafe" conviction, the device averages multiple readings, and even discards outlying readings.

(In fact, if you brake very hard and very sharply when you get zapped, you can actually cause the gun to fail to take a reading at all under certain circumstances)

In addition there is a massive "how to setup and operate a speed gun" manual (and quite a bit of hands on training too) for the operators, precisely to ensure, or try to ensure, that the convictions they get are robust.

All this means, that in reality, if you see a camera van at the same moment they see you or a bit before, you have a good chance of being able to scrub off enough speed to void a ticket! (or to cause a massive pile up when the muppet tailgating you drives into your boot.....)

I enjoy driving carefully, considerately [i]and[/i] fast.
Best of both worlds. 🙂

I think the problem with the notion of advanced driver training is that most forumites have, instead of demanding written record from Stephen Hawking just to prove that the sky is blue as usual, based their entire view on testimony from a Walter Mitty fantasist with no personal experience of further driving education.

Around here some traffic lights have cameras so that is regularly monitored. The gendarmes fly drones too, notably over the N10 to catch tail-gating trucks and dangerous behaviour of any kind. Road blocks with drug/alcohol tests are used. The local police often hang out around "STOP" signs and fine people who don't. Sometimes they hang out on a roundabouts and fine people for refusing priority, using the phone, eating/smoking. Madame got a warning for having her feet up on the dash as a passenger.

That just sounds like an oppressive police state. Is that what people really want? Well thank **** for austerity and budget cuts if that’s where we’re heading.

Is that what people really want?

Just sounds like sensible policing of bad driving to me. If you drive alright then there’s nothing to worry about.

Note on "feet on the dash"

All car seats and occupant protection systems are designed with a (reasonably) fixed "H" point.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-point ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-point[/url]

This point is designed in such a way that for a seated human, your Centre of Gravity is basically at, or close to, that point. Hence when you experience a large acceleration, the occupant restraint systems are designed to restrain your body symmetrically around this point.

So, even without passenger airbags, having your feet on the dash effectively completely negates the seat belt. You'll basically just submarine right out from underneath it. As such, even a pretty gentle impact is likely to result in life changing injuries. Now, as far as i am aware, there is no actual law on how an occupant must be seated in the car, only that they must be wearing a seat belt. However, common sense suggest that being properly seated at all times is a sensible thing overall........

I wish we had more sensible policing here.

I've been pulled over for allegedly speeding whilst driving perfectly safely, yet the two times I've been hit whilst stationary nothing has been done.
Everyone who causes an accident should be ticketed for DWDCA.

molgrips
You have t be applying that skill at any given moment. Just because you can pass an advanced test does NOT mean you will be driving safely an attentively all the time.

Very true. One of the reasons that advanced driving is a "system" is to make the action of applying those skills second nature, so you ARE applying them at all time. Most of the "tedious" bits of that system (like the much maligned handwheel technique) are there precisely to build, and fix, a systematic approach to driving at all levels. But of course, no one is perfect, we are all fallible, but overall, on average, less people would be killed and injured on our roads, and we'd all get around faster, smoother an with less stress by following the (really quite easy to do) basic advanced techniques.

molgrips
My point is that if you allow qualified advanced drivers to drive faster (which seems to be what you are suggesting) then they still make mistakes and will still be carrying the more energy when they crash.

At no point have i suggested advanced drivers be given special speed dispensations (although, in reality, that is exactly what is done for certain sectors (Emergency services etc). What i [b] am [/b] suggesting is that advanced drivers are more likely to be able to drive faster [b] at the same or lower level of risk [/b] than an untrained one.

In practice, advanced drivers do break speed limits, maybe more than normal drivers, but they balance that by also driving a lot slower and more carefully when that is required (you generally won't find an advanced driver doing 30 down between a row of parked cars outside your house, despite the limit being 30 for example).

Advanced drivers DO get caught speeding too, but hopefully they accept the penalty like a man, admit they messed up, and move on. You (hopefully) won't find an advanced driver moaning they got nabbed by a scamera van that was sat just over a blind brow when they were doing 15mph over the limit for example.......... 😉

For example, i got 3 points about 15 years ago by passing a fixed speed camera at 60, a camera i had fully seen, fully knew was there, and fully new that it was a 50mph limit! There were mitigating circumstances (long story) but in reality, it was [b]me[/b] that messed up. I got it wrong, i paid the price (3 point and a small fine).

Please do explain why this terrifies you, as I don’t understand.

My uncle was a "cautious, humble, considerate, careful, concentrated and slow" driver. He'd cautiously and slowly pull straight out of a side road into 40mph traffic. I wouldn't have trusted him to drive me to next door safely. I could cite a few other people I know who drive similarly too.

Now before the professionally offended wade in I'm not saying that this is true of Edukator's wife or indeed of everyone who drives slowly. But my experience of people who drive in this manner do so because they lack the confidence and / or ability to drive at the same speed as everyone else.
Because otherwise, why wouldn't you drive to the speed limit and conditions?

Advanced drivers DO get caught speeding too, but hopefully they accept the penalty like a man,

Because the very idea of a woman being an advanced driver is laughable, of course.

[quote=jambourgie ]That just sounds like an oppressive police state. Is that what people really want? Well thank **** for austerity and budget cuts if that’s where we’re heading.

God forbid the police enforcing the law - clearly people should be allowed to get away with some things which don't matter.

This was posted earlier in the thread and seems rather relevant to that:
https://trafficwmp.wordpress.com/2017/02/10/driving-an-extinction-event/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

BTW max I presume you missed my earlier comment about having done technical work with radar (though I believe the detectors currently in use in vans mostly use lasers)? I'll resist nitpicking your post, but just point out that as mentioned before there's a difference between a hand held speed gun and those mounted in vans - it's more difficult with a handheld gun, but with one on a fixed mounting there's certainly no technical reason why you can't generate a robust reading in a fraction of a second (one which is based on averaging and filtering many hundreds of individual samples), and I've certainly read that they capture your speed pretty much instantaneously.

Advanced drivers DO get caught speeding too, but hopefully they accept the penalty like a man

[img] [/img]

Because the very idea of a woman being an advanced driver is laughable, of course.

Edit - Damnit!

My other half has done extensive advanced driver training and she’s pulling funny faces at some of the advanced stuff on this thread. Bizarrely she doesn’t speed either and..........she’s a woman 😯

Cougar - Moderator

Because the very idea of a woman being an advanced driver is laughable, of course.

We never should have given them the vote. 😆

Actually women are good evidence for the snails pace brigade.
Women drive at slower speeds (due to different journey types, not just like for like) yet have lots more accidents though with reduced claim costs due to the lower severity of their accidents (and the likelihood of a claim for minor prangs was also less).

[quote=maxtorque ]Advanced drivers DO get caught speeding too, but hopefully they accept the penalty like a man, admit they messed up, and move on. You (hopefully) won't find an advanced driver moaning they got nabbed by a scamera van that was sat just over a blind brow when they were doing 15mph over the limit for example..........

Indeed - they'd probably write "but I chose to speed and got caught" rather than moaning, though they might also use it as an example of how it's possible to get caught no matter how good your observation is. They'd probably also not describe it as a "scamera van" 😉

Nice try 😆

My other half has done extensive advanced driver training and she’s pulling funny faces at some of the advanced stuff on this thread. Bizarrely she doesn’t speed either

Why bizarre?
Which advanced body do you think condones speeding?

a scamera van

Is that a camera van run by a criminal enterprise that issues fines and then pockets the money?

Why bizarre?
Which advanced body do you think condones speeding?

Whichever one maxtorque did his training with.

At no point have i suggested advanced drivers be given special speed dispensations (although, in reality, that is exactly what is done for certain sectors (Emergency services etc)

And in the case of the police those dispensations have become extremely limited because despite all their extra training their **** up rate was far too high. The law applies to the police and if they break it for a reason that won't satisfy a court or disciplianry commission they're in trouble if anything goes wrong. There are several cops on here, I'm sure they can do this better than I can with second-hand information.

The problem is now that scrotes have learned that the police are reluctant to chase if the risk is to high. It's perhaps time to tip the balance slightly more in favour of the police, but that's just a personal view. Drones are the future.

Whichever one maxtorque did his training with.

Then you should educate yourself.
Ask the wife. 🙂

Cougar - Moderator
Because otherwise, why wouldn't you drive to the speed limit and conditions?

Because it's not compulsory hence the word limit not limit and minimum. Often I'm not in a hurry and find driving at 60/65 on the motorway results in less interaction with other motorists and reduced tailgating from daring to enter the outside lane at 70. It's also eco and pocket friendly compared to 70+ although I will do 70 if conditions are ok and the traffic flow dictates.
I tend to do 60 on A roads etc where 60 is the limit for the same reasons. Negates the need to spot a camera van too.
Bring on GPS speed limited vehicles and longer bans for those who intentionally flout the law thinking they know better. Every speeding driver thinks they it's ok until it isn't.

I knew I'd regret that final sentence.

Far as I can see, you've just said that you drive exactly as I've just described. You drive at the speed limit (unless the A road bit was a typo) but sometimes drive more slowly to match the flow of traffic - ie, you're driving to the conditions.

The eco argument is a good one though, on motorways at least. I hadn't considered that.

Whichever one maxtorque did his training with.
Then you should educate yourself.
Ask the wife.

My wife has been laughing at some of the shit typed on here 😀 advanced driver this, advanced driver blah blah blah. She actually thinks some of the things she was taught are pretty stupid. That and she’s not one for ego so doesn’t harp on like a seventh day eventist. She also thinks that been qualified means you can drive at higher speeds is ridiculous, especially given the fact that other people use the roads. She did the training and chose her career after what happened to my brother.

Bring on GPS speed limited vehicles and longer bans for those who intentionally flout the law thinking they know better. Every speeding driver thinks they it's ok until it isn't.

I completely agree with this.

Every speeding driver thinks they it's ok until it isn't.

These haters of people who don't drive up to the limit are going to hate electric cars. On long trips it's pointless doing 130kmh on the autoroute as the time you save by driving fast is lost in extra time charging, so I trundle along at the same speed as the trucks on long journeys. Not that this behaviour causes anyone any trouble, but this thread makes clear that some STWers hate people not driving up to the limit and feel abliged to insult their driving ability.

Try driving a white van on a national speed limit road at the limt (say 53mph indicated) and see how many of the overtakers shake fists, raise fingers, or blare the horn, it's edukational (Kidderminster area was particularly bad). I admit the French plates may have been an agravating factor.

[quote=Cougar ]The eco argument is a good one though, on motorways at least. I hadn't considered that.

I kind of alluded to it earlier when I mentioned tucking in behind trucks* and "hypermiling" - it's why I don't always drive at 70 on motorways, though admittedly I'm more interested in saving money than saving the planet it's nice to do both (it makes up for the times I do 80 😳 )

* since the critics are out in force on this thread I should point out I don't drive dangerously close behind trucks, but you still get a benefit sitting behind at a safe distance

funkmasterp She actually thinks some of the things she was taught are pretty stupid.

And she's right (ish). However, i challenge her to come up with some thing taught for advanced driving that is WORSE (high risk of an accident) than the equivalent at the basic minimum standard (UK driving licence) level?

Could i also just clarify my standing on speed limits, before everyone assumes i am all for removing them completely:

1) 20 mph limits: against blanket 20mph limits. They are just ignored because they are not linked to direct, visible hazards, so the average motorist creeps back up towards 30 (most studies show around 28mph). Local, short, 20 mph limits (outside schools, at specific high risk areas etc) i am all for. (link speed limit to visible hazards)

2) 30mph: Actually i think this one is about right. 30mph feels fast enough to not feel too slow to the average driver, and generally means that any braking before an impact results in a fairly minor (most times) out come. The issue is that this limit is now widely ignored by a large number of drivers (not necessarily by gross margins, say 35 or 36 mph) but enough to lead to a significantly higher risk of injury in the case of a collision, especially to vunerable users (pedestrians, cyclists etc)

3) 40 mph. Historically a good, sensible limit for roads that were slightly less risky than 30mph ones, but the 40mph is now abused imo, and applied willy nilly, often as a knee jerk reaction by councils, and often where there are no visible signs of a higher risk at all (so the average motorist now pretty much ignores it completely. For example, 40mph on a dual carriage way section of road, with crash barriers on each side, as often found on bypasses around towns etc, feels ludicrously slow in a modern car most of the time. The limit doesn't need changing, but the application of it does imo.

4) 50mph - pretty much see 40mph! (there are a few specific cases where a very local, well signed 50mph limit is sensible, but the valid cases are in the minority, especially as a lot of national speed limit single carriageways have now been re-rated to long, pointless 50mph sections (again, generally ignored by a large majority of drivers in modern cars)

5) 60mph - The setting of this is sensible imo. A good speed for well sighted single carriageways, that feels fast enough to most people

6) 70 mph - This one needs changing imo. It's been acknowledged that the "official un-offical" motorway limit is now 85mph. You can drive that fast in the EU (in the dry) and by keeping the signs reading "70" and yet allowing >80mph, the average driver gets a "speeding is ok" mental re-enforcement that goes against all the "speed kills" propaganda. I'd suggest the limit is raised to 85mph (dry) and left at 70mph (wet) to bring us in line with the EU.

For the average motorist, who generally doesn't have the necessary skills to be able to objectively set their own speed (through no fault of their own) it's confusing and frankly absurd, that we are effectively allowed to break one limit without penalty, but not another one.

btw, in the UK for 2016

UK GOV Figures for 2016
46% of cars exceeded the speed limit on motorways
8% of cars exceeded the speed limit on national single carriageways
53% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 30mph roads
81% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 20mph roads

May I also pose the question: Can the entire population be "criminal"? ie. if everyone breaks the law, is it the law that is wrong? (the law is meant to reflect the will of the people after all......)

The only problem with being an ADVANCED DRIVER is the badge of entitlement.

My Nana was an advanced driver 30 years ago. She even had the gloves to prove it.

The link up there that aracer reposted from the west midlands police is spot on, well worth a read

[quote=maxtorque ]Could i also just clarify my standing on speed limits, before everyone assumes i am all for removing them completely:

Surprisingly I not only agree with most of that, a lot of it is exactly what I think about the limits. IMHO the motorway limit being set so far below what feels reasonable and safe to most drivers tends to lead to them not only ignoring that limit, but getting used to the idea that it's OK to ignore speed limits in general and also ignoring 30 limits etc. Though personally I reckon raising it to 80 [b]and then enforcing at that limit[/b] would be fine. I'd also be happy with less tolerance on speeding in 30 limits rather than the current "10% + 2" assumption which makes people think 34 is fine.

1) 20 mph limits: against blanket 20mph limits. They are just ignored because they are not linked to direct, visible hazards, so the average motorist creeps back up towards 30 (most studies show around 28mph). Local, short, 20 mph limits (outside schools, at specific high risk areas etc) i am all for. (link speed limit to visible hazards)

I was thinking from the start of that I was going to disagree, however I might even go further and suggest more time limited 20 zones outside schools rather than 24/7 ones.

The only rider I'd put on that is that if there was better enforcement so that drivers stuck to the limit (maybe we'll get that in future with black boxes and driverless cars) there would be bigger picture advantages to widescale use of 20 limits. Because it could potentially make the roads much friendlier to cyclists if it was possible to ride one at close to the same speed as cars (there would also be a good argument for raising the e-bike limit to 20mph) - not only that, but even the dimmest driver might realise that it's not quicker to drive than to cycle.

That link is definitely worth a read

Try driving a white van on a national speed limit road at the limt (say 53mph indicated) and see how many of the overtakers shake fists, raise fingers, or blare the horn

I do this all day, every day.
65,000 miles a year.
And I can honestly say none of that has ever happened to me.
(My van isn’t white though)

Must have been something else you were doing that caused all the issues you seem to be having.

this thread makes clear that some STWers hate people not driving up to the limit and feel abliged to insult their driving ability.

On the motorway it's a different situation, you can tuck in with the lorries and inconvenience no-one if you like. Or pull out to overtake and pull back in again. Ditto a van / tractor / cyclist / horse / whatever on regular roads. But if you're dribbling along at 40 in a 60 in perfect conditions when you're easily capable of driving at the legal limit inconveniences other road users and thus contravenes THC, and I'm pretty certain that the reason most drivers do this is because they have no clue what the NSL is which is potentially even more worrying.

"hypermiling"

I'm not familiar with this term, I assume it's akin to slipstreaming / drafting?

Ok but remember that speed isn't just about safety. Slower traffic through some hamlet in the countryside might make it much quieter for the residents. Likewise 50mph or 40 limits on suburban dual carriageways. Also there's more pollution in some spots especially if some folk are gunning it up to 70 instead of 50.

I'd suggest the limit is raised to 85mph (dry)

I accept this argument, and tbh I will be accelerating to 82mph (130kph, I'm a remainer!) once I get past Preston on my way up to Glasgow in a few weeks' time. But what's probably more important is traffic density. I will slow down to 70 if more than a few cars show up. So in theory you could drop the limit when it gets busier, like the smart motorways do, but that'd be really rather difficult to implement country-wide.

If there are enough smart sections on suburban or busy sections, you could raise the default to 80mph and then drop it in busy sections or for generally unsuitable bits. So for example the M4 around Newport should be max 70, and probably the M6 north of Brum because that's pretty windy and hilly. This is kind of similar to Germany where they do limit it in many places (though not enough) and also in the US there is no default speed limit like we have. It can be anything even on Interstates. The problem then though is that people have to notice the signs.

And she's right (ish). However, i challenge her to come up with some thing taught for advanced driving that is WORSE (high risk of an accident) than the equivalent at the basic minimum standard (UK driving licence) level?

She doesn’t believe either she or you are right, just that you have different opinions. She thinks the standard test isn’t tough enough. I’ll ask her about any elements she thinks are worse.

UK GOV Figures for 2016
46% of cars exceeded the speed limit on motorways
8% of cars exceeded the speed limit on national single carriageways
53% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 30mph roads
81% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 20mph roads

Motorways, not surprised. I too would like to see the limit raised to 80 - as that's what many people drive at, we're back to 85th percentile again - and have it rigorously enforced.

Single carriageways, again, unsurprised. Largely because of what I just said, the vast majority of drivers don't have a scooby what the actual limit is.

30mph roads, that's frankly a clucking disgrace.

20mph roads, both disgraceful and unsurprising. Drivers see it as unnecessarily slow and there's little or no enforcement (the ACPO has said that they don't have the resources to do so). We'd do better to put 20 limits in high-risk areas like in front of schools, rather than dotted all over the place because some NIMBY has confused "road" with "playground" and complained to the local council. It's the 'crying wolf' thing.

If the average motorist's mentality was "oh shit, a 20 zone, this must be serious" rather than being conditioned to "20mph, bollocks to that" then they would be far more effective. Even 20mph past a school at chucking out time is far too fast IMHO, I'd like to see "10mph when lights are flashing, 30mph at other times" scheduled limits next to schools.

tbh I will be accelerating to 82mph

Wait, what? After all the driving threads we've had where you've banged on ad tedium about the import of numbers on poles, did I really just see you admit to planning to intentionally exceed the speed limit? 😯

You'll be reet anyway, an indicated 82 is probably an actual speed of about 75.

[quote=Cougar ]"hypermiling"
I'm not familiar with this term, I assume it's akin to slipstreaming / drafting?

Well it covers a whole load of stuff, mainly avoiding using the brakes as much as possible - which is how I tend to drive a lot of the time (it always amuses me having somebody up my chuff as I'm doing 40 at the top of a hill in a 50 limit on one of my standard trips and watching them disappear behind when I coast down the hill without touching my brakes - 40 being the fastest I can be going at the top in order to manage that, and before the standard complaints I only have to lift off briefly from 50 in order to manage that as there's a slight uphill before the down). In this specific case, yes slipstreaming behind lorries, though as I alluded some people abuse it and sit dangerously close to get the best draft which isn't really a good idea.

I'm interested to see how much general agreement there is with max's speed limit post.

BTW, as Minister for Transport (lol) i'd also put the following into legislation:

1) If convicted of causing death or life changing injury by dangerous driving, get handed a LIFE TIME ban.

2) Double (at least) the fines and Bans for driving without due care and attention

3) If involved in an accident that requires the emergency services to attend and found "at fault", you get automatically fined a percentage of their costs.

4) Introduce a minimum number of mandatory driver training hours, and ban the "fast track" courses (that teach you to operate a car, but not to drive, and leave drivers with mere days (or even just hours) of actually driving before giving them a licence. In conjunction, limit the number of test attempts to 4. (seriously, if you can't pass the (incredibly basic) mandatory driving test in 4 attempts then i'm sorry, but driving just isn't for you.

5) (most controversial) remove all speeding cameras and spend the money on real traffic officers instead, who can do a lot more than simple ascertain how fast someone was travelling at a given time.....

20 mph limits: against blanket 20mph limits. They are just ignored because they are not linked to direct, visible hazards

They are in Germany, a local one here is pretty well repsected too as it's past a school but others less so.

4) 50mph

5) 60mph

6) 70 mph

For the average motorist, who generally doesn't have the necessary skills to be able to objectively set their own speed

You keep harping on about skills when they make **** all difference on busy roads. Look at the number of race and rally drivers who kill themselves on the road, the number of police driver who used to kill themselves before they were calmed down, the number of people in your motorsport world who thought they were driving Gods who've ****ed up big time.

One of my motor enthusiast contemporaries killed an old man on a pedestrian crossing, his "skills" didn't help a jot. But I'm certain my ageing mother would have stopped or avoided the guy simply because she is more cautious and wouldn't have thought that super-trained observation skills and braking skills meant that roughly the speed limit was slow enough.

What are your "skills" that Madame doesn't have, Maxtoroque? In other words beyond:

Driving for best visibility, that may mean more than a two second gap, Madame is often at several seconds, it's more relaxing and leaves a big gap for speeding overtakers to drop into.

Driving according to conditions with the limit as a maximum.

Being courteous to other road users and going out of your way to protect vulnerable road users.

Anticipating the stupidity of others. I find watching the on-coming traffic accross Les Landes anticipating the crazy overtakers tiring, but worth it.

Driving smoothly and predictably one's self, indicators, positionning so everyone knows where you're going.

Put the phone in the boot. the level of skill required to do this is staggeringly low.

They aren't skills, they're good habits, routines, anyone can do them however unskilled. That's the thing about driving, it's so unskilled everyone is allowed to do it unless they have a really serious handicap - and rightly so, you don't need the precision of an eye surgeon, the reactions goal keeper, the reflexes of a guitarist, it's easy. Just be careful, cautious, courteous, obsevant, anticipate and drive a speed at which you are fully in control within the prescribed limits and you'll be no danger to yourself or anyone else

^^ completely agree with this. At last, we agree! 😀

Edit - with maxtorques last post. Edukator, I pretty much agree with all your posts on this thread.

[quote=maxtorque ]5) (most controversial) remove all speeding cameras and spend the money on real traffic officers instead, who can do a lot more than simple ascertain how fast someone was travelling at a given time.....

Where do you plan to station your 1 traffic officer for best effect?

The new French radar cars aren't driven by police or gendarmes. Private companies are paid to drive the vehicles along prescribed routes at prescribed times and anyone speeding in either direction is nicked; Genius!

It means nowhere is "safe" from radars and roads with high accident rates can be targetted. Bikers who like thrashing French mountain roads be warned, they are being targetted next Summer, overtake the wrong car and you're nicked.

That’s what I said earlier: too many cameras and not enough police.

I have to say I agree with Maxtorque on the speed limits too, and can I also thank him for what has come across as a well reasoned argument based on facts and substantial, actual real world experience of the topic under discussion.

actual real world experience of the topic under discussion.

Just like everyone on the thread.

Agreed on MT assesment, well the general gist.
I have had some 'fast road' training, by a traffic policeman and a Fire Brigrade driving trainer. TBH , unless you are obliged to drive very fast for whatever reason within your work ( ambo - fire - police - docs ) then it has no place on our overcrowded roads.
Simply too dangerous. Too many muppets . too many other road users.

Speed limits have to stay as they are, and as there cannot be an allowance for tiredness, state of mind , light levels, 'percieved driving ability' weather, vehicle condition etc etc.- They need to set and policed to a specified level where the result of an accident has the best possible outcome.

Simply stating you would rather have an alert driver on quality german tyres who can steer through an abs braking scenario driving at 40mph , is safer than Maxine doing 30mph whilst checking out Ebay is true. But all that will happen is Maxine will be checking Ebay at 40mph if you raise the limit, as she is too thick to realise it is not safe.

Checking Ebay: that would definitely be a Maxime and he is a member of this forum.

Cougar - Moderator
Please do explain why this terrifies you, as I don’t understand.
My uncle was a "cautious, humble, considerate, careful, concentrated and slow" driver. He'd cautiously and slowly pull straight out of a side road into 40mph traffic. I wouldn't have trusted him to drive me to next door safely. I could cite a few other people I know who drive similarly too.

Now before the professionally offended wade in I'm not saying that this is true of Edukator's wife or indeed of everyone who drives slowly. But my experience of people who drive in this manner do so because they lack the confidence and / or ability to drive at the same speed as everyone else.

Cougar, whilst I’m sure you did not intend to slight Edukator’s wife, you did say his description of her driving terrified you. I must have pictured something quite different, someone driving in a calm sensible manner, with regard to other road users. Someone who made Edukator feel so safe and relaxed he fell asleep (not that she was so slow he fell asleep, as suggested by someone else).

I’m not sure why I have homed in on your commments, out of so many - a lot of them incredible.
However, I disagree with you about the 20mph limits too. Large parts of Edinburgh now have a 20 mph limit and whilst it is seldom adhered to, traffic speeds (appear to) have reduced. This makes the roads far safer for more vulnerable road users and less noisy for pedestrians and those that live in the streets. One day the children may even return to playing outside! Also, I’d be very surprised if 20mph zones increase travel times.

Large parts of Edinburgh now have a 20 mph limit and whilst it is seldom adhered to, traffic speeds (appear to) have reduced

I’d be very surprised if 20mph zones increase travel times.

I'd just like to see more of Maxtorque's point 5 enforced. I'm not worried about those speeding on any of the routes I take over Scotland. But dangerous lane changes, tailgating all need a bit of action. Rear ended twice and seen a few more similar shunts.

Meanwhile a lass on BBC news website gets a paltry 7months in jail for causing death by careless driving because they couldn't prove her phone use caused the fatal collision - so far off the penalties required ffs

Large parts of Edinburgh now have a 20 mph limit and whilst it is seldom adhered to, traffic speeds (appear to) have reduced

I’d be very surprised if 20mph zones increase travel times.

Slight contradiction there

Yes, not clear at all what I meant, sorry. I guess, since the new 20 zones were introduced, instead of driving at 35 mph, people are driving at 25mph (I’d sooner it was <20). Now, a lot of the time, on most of these roads people cannot average 20 mph, but they accelerate up to the speed limit or beyond to then sit at 10 mph behind the car in front.

Not much clearer now unfortunately. Also I think maybe I’m focussing more on city streets than others.

Cougar, whilst I’m sure you did not intend to slight Edukator’s wife, you did say his description of her driving terrified you. I must have pictured something quite different, someone driving in a calm sensible manner, with regard to other road users.

Based purely on experience of the people I know, it was the description of a timid, nervous driver who could benefit from further tuition to improve her confidence. This may not hold true in her case, I've no idea.

I'll give you another example of someone else I know who fits all the same criteria Edukator listed. It's a friend's mum. She never turns right, ever. Wherever she's going, she'll plot a convoluted route in painful detail where every right turn is replaced by three lefts instead.

I’m not sure why I have homed in on your commments, out of so many - a lot of them incredible.

Eh, I get that a lot.

However, I disagree with you about the 20mph limits too. Large parts of Edinburgh now have a 20 mph limit and whilst it is seldom adhered to

You've just agreed with me.

she never turns right, ever. Wherever she's going, she'll plot a convoluted route in painful detail where every right turn is replaced by three lefts instead.

US based example so flip left/right but it’s actually not a terrible idea

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-ups-drivers-don-t-turn-left-and-you-probably-shouldn-t-either-a7541241.html

Blanket 20mph in city - stupid, agree with that. Doesnt work in Glasgow especially on the big roads.

Blanket 20mph in tight residential streets? Not a kick in the arse off the 30kph limits elsewhere in the EU (Eire and Spain at any rate) and didn't feel unreasonably slow. Probably too fast around here given the parking derived chicanes but still better than 30.

Pootling along with lorries on the motorway or a dual carriageway, as said, is fine as you are inconveniencing nobody. I do it when towing and with cruise control and proper anticipation for any overtakes makes for an easy journey. Equally when you have a line of cars playing conga with an HGV at 40mph because the first few are too scared to overtake and so nobody can (safely) it's frustrating and why a bad driver would go for that overtake at a stupid moment.

Oh, Max, you forgot arbitrary 50/60 limits on motorways. See Glasgow with the M77 from Pollokshields, M80 to Stepps ( after the bridge its a straight road) and pretty much the whole of the M8 barring the city centre from the Royal to Govan. Lots of lower limits on open sections with no reason not to have them full speed given everyone seems to do 70 anyway.

Average speed cameras such as those on the A9 from Perth up seem to do a good job of calming people's driving down , perhaps that will ultimately become widespread on motorways .

Equally when you have a line of cars playing conga with an HGV at 40mph because the first few are too scared to overtake and so nobody can (safely) it's frustrating

Oh, no, they're all waiting their turn.

funkmasterp - Member

My wife has been laughing at some of the shit typed on here advanced driver this, advanced driver blah blah blah. She actually thinks some of the things she was taught are pretty stupid. That and she’s not one for ego

Not one for ego, but knows better than what she's taught? 😉
(I would genuinely be interested in hearing what she disagrees with, there are certainly one or two methods taught that I am also not in agreement with)

Ramsey Neil - Member

Average speed cameras such as those on the A9 from Perth up seem to do a good job of calming people's driving down

Haven't driven the A9 in quite a while, but it was a shit road. Changing from single to two lane and then back again in a short space. Frustrated drivers rushing to get passed slower HGVs in the short two lane sections.
I remember a camper van load of Italians losing their lives getting T-boned as they tried to cross the carriageway.
They weren't speeding.