So I've got this Mercedes and I have questions

You'll get issues with all second hand cars. That's the choice you make.

My current car cost me 3k last Dec and I've spent a grand on it so far (some necessary, some just for my own peace of mind). Every second hand car I've had you always spend the first few months ironing out niggles.

I'd be searching out a good Merc independent even if it meant a trip to get to them. Join Facebook groups and the like and watch which names keep being recommended. A car dealership won't know the foggiest about gearboxes. For most their technical knowledge extends to switching the vacuum cleaner on to hoover the car out! 🙂

Take it back, say words to the effect of “the gears don’t work properly”

Me: "The gears don't work properly"
Them: "Yes they do, look - 1st, 2nd, 3rd"
Me: "No, they don't, look it's jerky"
Them: "Seems fine to us"
...

Honestly I don't know what car dealers are like by you but there's no way on earth these people will roll back on a sale on those grounds.

I’d be searching out a good Merc independent even if it meant a trip to get to them.

That's what I've done.

Me: “The gears don’t work properly”
Them: “Yes they do, look – 1st, 2nd, 3rd”
Me: “No, they don’t, look it’s jerky”
Them: “Seems fine to us”

That's when you go & get a second opinion. They've had a chance to sort out, declined so you can start a dispute.

Now it's

Me: “The gears don’t work properly”
Them: “Yes they do, look – 1st, 2nd, 3rd”
Me: “No, I've taken it to 2 experts and they said they're iffy”
Them: “Maybe they buggered it up. you should have come to us & we'd sort you out as part of the lovely customer service we provide. Perhaps you need to chase them to see what they did to it”

Honestly I don’t know what car dealers are like by you but there’s no way on earth these people will roll back on a sale on those grounds.

They're just unit-shifters - buy at auction, give it a quick valet and sell on.

New/nearly new with manufacturers warranty is the only way to be sure.

Tbf I don't think molegrips has done this terribly wrong.

Only point I may have made is a quick call when I was on holiday and say it's a touch clunky, I've asked a local firm to flash the box and I'll keep you posted.

Hes right in the fact with a fault like that the dealers not going to roll over and take it back.

@molgrips any dealers near you got another merc same as you for sale.... go n waste salesmans time n test drive it...?

Oh and you used that W word again

Stop it.

any dealers near you got another merc same as you for sale…. go n waste salesmans time n test drive it…?

Good idea, I didn't think of that - bit late now though. But the idea of going to the specialist is that they should know if it's right or not.

Did another test drive this afternoon. When getting close to the red line in lower gears the change is totally slurred, and when accelerating moderately at lower revs it's jerky.

If you test drive it on the motorway it feels fine because you're in higher gears and you cannot realistically red line it. I ought to rig up a chest cam or something and video it.

Gripping thread, this.

Not quite as dramatic as that poor soul who bought a dodgy Defender but I can't wait to read how it goes with the dealer, in the next instalment

When getting close to the red line in lower gears the change is totally slurred, and when accelerating moderately at lower revs it’s jerky.

isn't this just the sign of clutches doing their jobs? if you apply a certain amount of clutch pressure against with lots of power running through the transmission it'll take some time to get the revs down, on the other hand if you apply the same amount of pressure with very little power running through the transmission it'll change the revs immediately. It might be a sign the clutches are worn or wet (if they're meant to be dry, depends on the dct setup) - but it might also be a sign everything is fine - without driving another I think it'd be hard to tell.

Definitely tell the dealer you’ve been redlining it

Am I not supposed to redline a car?

This thread needs more glupton and surf-matt

Not quite as dramatic as that poor soul who bought a dodgy Defender

Oh I remember that...what happened? Did he get his money back?

I think everyone is being a bit harsh here, but it's mainly impatience, everything seems strangely drawn out, for example if this was me, first sign of something not right, nip into a local garage and say 'just bought this car, can you drive it round the block and tell me what you think?'..I might not tell them just to make it more interesting...they might get out and say 'no way mate, there is nowhere to put sunglasses', then you are a bit more informed, if they say the gearbox is stuffed go back, this I would have done immediately after the holiday.

The other thing that seems to bug only me is this...

Me: “The gears don’t work properly”
Them: ...Stop there, you don't know what they will say, they fix cars every day, it's normal, unless you bought it from a dodgy back street place they are in business to do these sort of things, if they palmed everyone off that brought a car back they wouldn't be around long.

In short, I think you make things more complicated than they need to be, think about it too much, get anxious, and build scenarios in your head(as above) my advice is keep it simple, phone them and say you have concerns about the gearbox...then don't speak, don't tell them you have had independents look at it, but tell them you are thinking of, and don't speak, tell them you can't leave the car because you need it for work, can they give you a courtesy car? you are now costing them time and money, they need to satisfy you to get rid, thank them profusely and tell them how impressed you are with their service, and that you hope the fault doesn't reoccur, you love the car and it would be a real shame to have to return it.

And just to make you feel better I bought a second hand car last year, It's great but a wheel bearing went, put it into a local garage garage to save a few quid and due to covid the part was hard to find, the main dealer that I didn't go to to save money had the only one, and it cost way over the odds, I ended up paying £400 to get a wheel bearing fitted, then...saw the date on the bill..I had a couple of weeks warranty still running which covers wheel bearings...with the main dealer that supplied the part, too busy working to stop and think about the obvious, happens.

Maybe the errant sunglasses holder fell into the gearbox?

they might get out and say ‘no way mate, there is nowhere to put sunglasses’, then you are a bit more informed, if they say the gearbox is stuffed go back, this I would have done immediately after the holiday.

I literally did exactly that. They said it was ok, I don't believe them.

There's nothing obviously wrong with it, but it's exactly like a cheap crappy American auto, and it's exactly not what I think a Merc should be like, especially when the transmission has been praised by reviewers and other people.

have you changed the oil and filters yet?

There’s nothing obviously wrong with it, but it’s exactly like a cheap crappy American auto

wait, does your Mercedes shooting brake look like this?

😉

Am I not supposed to redline a car?

If you were talking about a Golf GTi, then abso-bloody-lately. Bounce it off the Rev limiter.

In the case of a German pensioners caravan-towing land-yacht, with an automatic gearbox, it does beg the question; what would be the point?

But yes, when you make your claim for Marvin the paranoid Mercedes in the dealership, definitely mention all the redlining 😂

In the case of a German pensioners caravan-towing land-yacht with an automatic gearbox it does beg the question; what would be the point?

It's a CLS with lowered suspension and 19 rims it's not a pensioner's cruiser.

Vroom vroom

*swoons*

😂

You can that the changes are slow - but what you can't see is that it backs off whilst it's shifting, so the power delivery is not smooth. It also looks like it's bouncing a bit in what I think is 2nd.

I tried to record the G forces with a phone app but it looks like the phone mount was wobbling all over the place so it didn't record properly.

I'm struggling to see what's wrong. Maybe its slightly lazy compared to my BMW/ZF auto but I'd expect that of a Merc - based on no expertise just an assumption of Merc as a cruiser vs BM as "sports".

based on no expertise just an assumption of Merc as a cruiser vs BM as “sports”.

So you think that a fifty grand Merc should shift like a twenty grand bog standard American car? No, and if that were the case reviewers would have panned it instead of saying 'the transmission is brilliant'.

Tried this? At the end of the vid he says he does it because the because gets sluggish...

Same here:

This vid at about 1:28 - same transmission as I hvae

This vid at about 1:28 – same transmission as I hvae

Yeah but maybe his is or has recently been "re learned"?

I dunno.

There's a well known reset procedure, but it's not clear exactly what that does, there's a lot of bad information out there. However there's also a few different sets of instructions, I might try it again with some variations.

Also, seems I'm not the only one with shifting problems with this thing. By the sound of it it's the 'learning' software that's rubbish. It could be that me driving it normally then booting it during test drives might be confusing it.

My colleague had a 2007 CLS (350CGI) and another had a 2011 C class and having been a passenger in both I'd say both were pretty quick and smooth through the gears certainly on a par with the DSG Passat I had. I'd guess those boxes pre date molgrips car but my impression was that while Mercs are softer in the bends than the equivalent BMW their transmissions are not built to be deliberately sluggish in a straight line.

This car is fantastic in corners. In fact it gets much better the faster you drive it, in a straight line but especially in corners. Mercedes may be known for making comfy cruisers but this isn't one of them. Shame, cos that's what I was kind of expecting.

Can you not just tailor your routes to drive it only on roads with lots of corners?

Have you not thought of moving to Scotland? We’re just back from there today and it’s corners galore. Your car would love it up there. And quite frankly given how nasty you’ve been to it, I think you owe it that.

please be nicer in this thread.

I would test drive the same model tbh.

I can drive an auto in 3 different ways n get 3 different shifts.

I've proffered my minuscule experience forward.

Lots off people with bugger all trade or general experience are throwing their hat in.

1 is it worse than another
2 is it wear
3 is it poor driving technique
4 is it worth making yourself ill

Aye you can say what you like about Scots but we know how to make a windy road.

molgrips what do you see wrong in the vid clip you posted?

And is this your normal driving? 4k revs? does it change gear differently at lower revs?

molgrips what do you see wrong in the vid clip you posted?

Well the shift is too slow. But as I said, it pauses acceleration whilst doing that long slow change. You can't see it of course but it means the thing feels lethargic and generally rubbish. Which is annoying.

Watching it again you can actually see the needle leap and sort of pause just after I floor it. Which is a bit odd.

if they say the gearbox is stuffed go back, this I would have done immediately after the holiday.

I literally did exactly that. They said it was ok, I don’t believe them.

Was it just me that missed the bit where molgrips said he has already been back to the dealer seeking a remedy?

because not long ago... (bold added):

Yes, with 100% anyway, but that seemed so unlikely as to not be worth the stress.of trying it, without solid evidence.

I don't think you necessary "deserve" 100% refund. But if you could have hired a car for 3 weeks that was suitable for towing your caravan and taking your family on holiday for £500 I'm sure it would have been a serious consideration. Certainly in your shoes I'd be happy with that and let them sell it again so someone with a lighter right foot who doesn't notice the shitty shifting. I presume you've fixed the subframe on the old car meantime?

molgrips

Well the shift is too slow. But as I said, it pauses acceleration whilst doing that long slow change. You can’t see it of course but it means the thing feels lethargic and generally rubbish. Which is annoying.

Watching it again you can actually see the needle leap and sort of pause just after I floor it. Which is a bit odd.

Not seeing it in that clip, you did 0-60 in about 6 seconds, with your foot down it is changing at high revs, would be interesting to compare a more relaxed 0-60, don't hear anything juddering or vibrating that would indicate a clutch problem, or even mechanical gearbox problem, just needs reset for performance I'd say.

I have only driven one Mercedes estate, older model but it was pretty much the same, lots of noise and not a lot for it, especially pulling a trailer.

Internet says Service intervals on Mercedes Auto gearbox is every 36-40k miles. That seems a low mileage to me so unless it’s in the service history that it’s been done that would be my first port of call. How old is the gearbox fluid and how many miles has it done?

You can that the changes are slow – but what you can’t see is that it backs off whilst it’s shifting, so the power delivery is not smooth. It also looks like it’s bouncing a bit in what I think is 2nd.

That looks pretty normal to me (as someone who's driven a car with an automatic gearbox for close to ten years). You pulled out relatively gently >> gearbox shifts straight into 2nd >> torque convertor locks up >> you boot it >> car thinks "WTF, I've just let the turbo go off boost and now I have to unlock the torque convertor and change gears and everything" >> shifts normally.

You can't compare it to the videos above where the driver is shifting manually in a different gearbox mode. If you're used to driving a DSG automatic then these are completely different (and if you're comparing the rev counters be aware that the ECU fakes the snap gear change 'cos it looks good). Cold engine also drives differently to warm engine (even on a "warm" day you need to allow a few minutes for the oil to come up to temp).

It might be worth changing the gearbox oil but until you've driven an identical car under identical conditions you'll be fighting a losing battle, I think.

Ok so it's not a good video but I didn't fan ynsifti g through 15 mins of footage. However it's not smooth or responsive, you can feel most shifts, often quite badly.

I've driven a lot of autos as well, just never a Mercedes, and this feels like a cheap rubbish one which doesn't seem right.

However the internet seems split 50/50 with people hating this transmission and people loving it.

because not long ago…

I didn't demand a refund, I informed them of the faults and they offered a remedy.

until you’ve driven an identical car under identical conditions you’ll be fighting a losing battle, I think.

Or.. I get the opinion of someone who has.. which is what I'm doing now.

You can’t compare it to the videos above where the driver is shifting manually in a different gearbox mode.

Obviously I've tried every mode, under every condition, in every combination I can, I'm not so dense that I don't know about different modes...

Right, a nice chat with the mechanic at Continental Cars who is very nice and as hoped full of detailed knowledge and experience. He test drive it with me and agreed that there's an issue of some kind. He said the most likely case would be a blocked DPF....

Good result, hopefully the vendor will now fix or accept it back.

Good result, hopefully the vendor will now likely take it for an Italian Tune Up and fix or accept it hand it back.

Much as the fixer in me would love to fix it, I am not sure I want to keep a car with a DPF fault. On the other hand, if I got them to replace it, I'd have a car with a new DPF which would be a plus.

On the other hand again, these two cars aren't a lot more than the money I'd get back:

https://usedcars.volkswagen.co.uk/en/used-cars/volkswagen/passat/20-tdi-se-business-150ps-dsg-estate-fkcpstb
https://usedcars.volkswagen.co.uk/en/used-cars/volkswagen/passat/20-tdi-gt-scr-190ps-dsg-jqcptjk

Good result

It's still with them, they are doing a full check.

Also - I was under the impression that codes had the status 'stored' when they were old, but it actually means not currently happening. He told me that ABS wheel sensor codes are always 'stored' when the car's not moving. Logical on the part of Mercedes engineers, but a bit pointless. There's apparently no way of knowing when they occurred. At least with VW it stores a date/time, the issue there is that my old car doesn't actually know what date it is. But it does store the mileage so you get an idea of how old the code is.

Oh and he said you get 90 days to return the car, not 28...

Of course.. if a new DPF makes it properly smooth and responsive, I might actually really love the car. Because that's really the only reason I don't currently.

[img] [/img]

And just when you think it can't get worse still, binners won't shut up.

So with no codes he thinks dpf? Why? And why would this affect the auto box.

Got any pressure values over the filter. If it was blocked youd have an error code.

I'm not saying I dont belive him but I'm sceptical.

Just reading about this. It can be reading high soot load which would generate lots of regenerations which would cause intermittent power loss and also crappy fuel economy, which I've observed.

It could affect the gearbox because the engine/trans ECUs are talking to each other and the engine's going 'right, we've got X throttle and Y boost, that should be Z amount of torque' and the trans is saying 'ok that means I need to shift like this' and it's the wrong shift because the actual generated torque isn't what the engine ECU thinks it should be.

Seems plausible to me I must admit. However you'd expect a code before it got this bad. He said that sometimes you just don't get the code yet but there can still be problems. I've noticed from working on the Passat that the different teams that work on the car and the software don't necessarily talk to each other. So the emissions team says 'well, the car will continue to work up to X soot load, so we'll throw a code at that point' but the torque mapping team has only coded for Y variance in torque under normal conditions so if you are between Y and X there's no code but you're getting poor performance. I may not be a mechanic but I am a software engineer and that's the kind of thing that happens a lot 🙂

What data is there to back this up?

I get what your saying

Will the car not log when a regen last happened

What data is there to back this up?

I'll let you know when they call me back with a full STAR readout 🙂

Has there ever been a case recorded of munchausen syndrome by proxy being applied to a car?

Missed a pun there @binners

Munichausen syndrome

^ LOLS lots

Stuttgart 🙂

Seems plausible to me I must admit. However you’d expect a code before it got this bad.

From my recent experience, each module can create codes that cause issues (ECU, ABS etc) but don't automatically tell the OBD or show engine light until they go from being intermittent to permanent problems. These codes won't show with a standard OBD reader, this is where Star or a 3rd party item like ICARSOFT MB V2.0 is needed.

The modules must share data when the ECU reported problems with exhaust back pressure sensor the gearbox became lumpy and reluctant to shift. They are all inter related.

10 pages 👏👏 and there is light at the end of the tunnel 😊

Right, we have an answer.

It's not the DPF, that's at 18% load.
The wheel bearing codes didn't return.
The aircon codes didn't return either.
No mechanical faults were evident from the transmission.
Software all up to date. And this is likely the problem because..

The answer is...

DIESELGATE

Yes, MB have been updating engine maps as part of normal services - apparently sometimes in secret, or as free updates, and even denying they've done anything. And as well as the usual reduction in power and economy, it may have messed up the transmission adaptations as well. The car is actually in very good shape otherwise, apparently. There are now no stored codes and none came back during this week. And physically it's in good shape too.

We assumed that the previous owner had it serviced, the update was applied and he didn't like the change so got rid. There's some hope though. The internal adaptations (not the driving style ones) take a long time to adjust, and if the car wasn't driven long after the update it may not have had time.

Some more useful information re the gearbox though. One of the issues seems to be with the driving style learning, which takes something like 40 gear shifts to change to how you're driving it so is relatively short term. What I didn't realise was that each transmission mode has a different adaptation. This means that if you want to drive fast (or tow) use S mode and if you want to drive normally use E. I was mixing it up just trying to test everything out, so I probably mixed up all the style adaptations and confused it.

[img] [/img]

To find out if it's had the software change then, could you ring a MB dealer & say something along the lines of "I've just bought this car & want to make sure it has all of the ECU updates relating to the diesel scandal. Can you tell me if this was done on the car already, or should I bring it in?"

Or do you know for sure that it has had the work done.

I never got our Ibiza done. There were loads of reports of reduced torque at low revs, much more diesel clatter etc. & other problems after the engine was 'fixed'. There was even some guy who had it dynoed before & after to prove there was a change - this was on an Octavia. VAG were quite sneaky as they said peak power & torque won't be affected. They said nothing about the power & torque everywhere else though.

Or do you know for sure that it has had the work done.

I'm not sure if he was able to say for sure actually, but he wasn't able to find anything else wrong with it whatsoever (besides some light rust on some parts and he advised me to get it proofed). And it has been serviced at Merc at the times that it would have been done. Both checkups have shown no outstanding recalls or updates either.

So, where does that leave you?

Are you going to pester the garage, given that there appears to be no fault & this is just how it is?
I'd perhaps contact them & ask about a gearbox service, as it 'feels a bit rough'? Try to get an oil change out of them & see if that makes any difference?

If this is 'how it is', are you going to keep it? It's probably one of those things that once you stop worrying about whether it's about to shit its pants you will just get used to it and actually realise that it's fine?

As a tesco delivery driver during covid I was hopping between multiple different MB sprinter [platform] vans with the 7Gtronic auto. They all behaved differently from each other presumably from the person who was using it before. It was very obvious who had been ragging them (because it would hold gears) and who was driving normally.

Great gearbox though, I assume it's the exact same as in the cars, all the switchgear etc is. But yeah, there were small but noticeable differences between them all if you cared to pay attention.

Gooooood luck in winter when you're stuck in grass with the traction control (even when turned off and using flappy paddles) not letting you move off 😉

Are you going to pester the garage, given that there appears to be no fault & this is just how it is?

No, there's nothing I can tell them. I'll probably cancel the appointment since there's not really anything for them to do. We've proven there's no fault so I've got no case. And to be honest, I'm relatively happy-ish with the outcome because I now know that there's not an actual fault and the car's in pretty good condition. And I think that I can improve matters now I understand how the adaptations work.

If this is ‘how it is’, are you going to keep it? It’s probably one of those things that once you stop worrying about whether it’s about to shit its pants you will just get used to it and actually realise that it’s fine?

Yes I agree - knowing what is going on is a huge relief, even if there's nothing that can be done.

Will I keep it? I might consider simply selling it on - I might lose £1.5k or so - but the car does have a lot of plus points:

- It's huge which is great for holidays
- It's really good when loaded up and towing because of the self levelling thing which is flippin great
- I've already bought the Thule roofbars for it!
- It's go no faults, which would not necessarily be the case with any other car unless we went significantly newer
- It still handles really really well
- Bodywork is really nice
- Great driving position and setup

Negatives:

- It's noisy because of the stupid wheels - which can be rectified but at a cost
- It's not as slick or smooth as a VW with DSG would be
- Less modern satnav setup and the connected features don't work

Was there an update on the sunglasses holder?
😉

It’s huge which is great for holidays
– It’s really good when loaded up and towing because of the self levelling thing which is flippin great
– I’ve already bought the Thule roofbars for it!
– It’s go no faults, which would not necessarily be the case with any other car unless we went significantly newer

Hmm, could be of interest to Mrs K if it goes.

the sunglasses holder

Ouch oh yes thats missing. I'll give you £8k for it.

How about getting another Passat?

PM me Kryters 🙂

Was there been an update on the sunglasses holder?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201955161595

How about getting another Passat?

There's one in Merthyr for £15k with only 30k miles on it.

Why didn't you buy that instead?

I’m wondering how many folks have a Mercedes with the same gearbox and have no clue 🙁

@binners I've got the two previous editions of that

I’m wondering how many folks have a Mercedes with the same gearbox and have no clue

There are a lot of unhappy drivers with it - even before dieselgate it seems the adaptations cause some annoyance. But I think that if you are careful to use S for fast driving and E for cruising it should make a significant difference.

PM me Kryters

You do know my own angst issues would only prompt another thread like this if I bought that off you don't you?

So I’ve bought this Mercedes from Molgrips and I have questions

I'm sure nobody wants that. 😀

Lol

But you know its history now..

Sounds almost like a good ending...going through all that hassle, getting told time and again what should be done with people getting properly wound up by it all (and ignoring it all then coming back to ask similar questions again and again - top marks on staying with it), to then read if you got good news from the 3rd opinion you'd be happy with it...and now...we find out that you may just sell it and make a loss (that would be more than the price it would cost for the new wheels and tyres you need).

A roller-coaster of emotions only to be properly burst at the end due to finding it it might be getting sold despite all the benefits and the really small negatives...

I mentioned Jerry Springer in another thread, but I'm now wondering if this is the makings of a Jerry Springer-esque comeback somewhere!!!

Personally, great news it isn't anything catastrophic and just needs used, but seriously cheesed off that it might be getting sold after finding out nothing is wrong with it.

I probably won't sell it tbh. Not for a couple of years anyway. But I will mull it over.

Should have bought Japanese 🙂

Maybe take it back to the Dealer and see what they say? May give you somehting for your trouble