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Income is a very poor measure for defining "rich".
Not a bad one when determining income tax policy though 😉
More sensible to think of assets rather than income to try and define what's rich IMO. A top earning grad isn't rich as is likely to be trying to save up for a deposit on a property and could be in trouble if they lost their job. An old woman could be in a property worth a couple million or two, no mortgage and an income from investments that isn't particularly high but pays for all she needs must surely be considered rich.
I don't feel rich because of my income but the fact I don't have a mortgage and live in a decent place is what makes me realise I'm in a comfortable position.
We are more fotunate than most in that we have a fairly well respected publicly funded healthcare system, but we still die of stuff.
I think my brief phrase is analogous with that [ not often my brevity causes me problems 😉 ]and despite [s]our [/s] my love of a "robust debate" I am struggling to believe you took it differently.
Yes obviously you are correct.
Its what i meant though we could argue if it was what i said but even I cannot be arsed with that
Given the other thread shall I just say sorry for the confusion 🙂
Income is a very poor measure for defining "rich".
It can be and wealth may be a better measure but then we would then debate the atypical wealthy pensioner in the massively expensive house with a meagre income. No one measure will work for all cases but income tends to be indicative of rich as the rich tend to have a larger income than the poor
Well yes and no, hence the debate on asset taxes (also limited), consumption, inheritance, stamp duty taxes and other non-income taxes.
You could have just said 'I know, smartarse'. 😀
[i]"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone."[/i]
I can't let Ebay alone, that's my problem.
Crikey you are ever the optimist 😀
[i]£60k household income puts you in the top 15% in the UK. The median is down in the low £20's - in other words half the households live on less.[/i]
Yes, but you'd expect lots of people to be able to live on less - pensioners are one group, it's not like they are saving up for anything, and they get a higher tax band too.
I like the definition of richness, about how long can you not work for - as for 99% of folk (even those earning big money) it isn't very long.
We use to earn twice the 'rich' income, each - didn't feel rich but we were certainly well off. One thing though is that we didn't have any large commitments, so when we had to reign it in, we could.
We now live on 3/4's of what we earned, still comfortable - but no way are we rich.
All very well for people to say "Don't have a family then".
However a lot of the current economic problems are actually demographic - there are too few taxpayers to fund the pensions of the previous generations who are living longer. To keep the welfare state ponzi scheme going we all need to have 2 kids each.
The response to my earlier post seemed to imply I was bitching - I'm not. I'm merely making the point that whilst I have a high income, I am sure as hell not wealthy. Every month is very hand to mouth, however I would much rather have a tight financial situation and happy healthy kids who don't have to spend 10 hours a day in child care.
My decision and quite happy with it. Yes it would be nice to be able to afford a holiday and to be able to afford a takeaway at the weekend. Doubtless there are people with half our household income who have more disposable income - fine. But for once Ed Milliband is half right for once - someone's gross income does not denote them as 'rich'.
RichPenny - Member
On £60k, your take home is £3480 a month.
On £40k, your take home is £2502 a month.
- pension
- student loan repayments
If you have household staff - you're middle class
If you houshold staff have a manager - you're rich.
I think part of the problem is that the goverment continue to under report inflation. while a 27k salary would have let a small family get by quite nicelly in the north east 10 years ago it simply wouldn't cut the mustard now, not without a substantial amount of debt.
Correct CaptJon, there are lots of deductions possible which would affect your take home pay. I wasn't about to start entering them all into Salary Calculator though, just aiming to show that variations have a significant impact on a persons income.
Obviously if you've chosen to have a pension, degree education, child, company car etc, these would all affect your income. I can't see any of them being more fundamental than housing though, which is why I highlighted that one.
RichPenny - Member
Correct CaptJon, there are lots of deductions possible which would affect your take home pay. I wasn't about to start entering them all into Salary Calculator though, just aiming to show that variations have a significant impact on a persons income.Obviously if you've chosen to have a pension, degree education, child, company car etc, these would all affect your income. I can't see any of them being more fundamental than housing though, which is why I highlighted that one.
I agree. I think in these debates it is important to highlight the range of factors affecting an individual's, or more importantly, a household's income.
Pension isn't really a 'choice' when you think about it. What are you going to live on? Fresh air?
fizzicist - MemberAll very well for people to say "Don't have a family then".
Well, from what I see at least, it seems young people who have a family, then pretend to separate so they can get free accommodation courtesy of the government are the ones that can afford to go out every night drinking & ordering takeaways, maybe they are just the ones I have had contact with & that was a massive generalisation, but I'm happy to have a big mortgage & fend for myself, which leaves me cash poor in comparison, but I guess it is down to the mindset of the individual & having aspirations of a better life in the future, maybe.
I was introduced to a network of friends who are CEO's earning half a million a year in shares/bonuses etc.
I plan to quit my teaching job soon.
I was introduced to a network of friends
Is it a pyramid scheme? 😉
I plan to quit my teaching job soon.
...and do what exactly?
Unless you're going to marry one of said CEOs, I'd stay doing what you do best, which is probably teaching PE.... 😉
Is it a pyramid scheme?
It's funny, where we live in the commuter belt a lot of 'London types' move here for the schools so they can avoid private schooling fees, so you often meet up with people who earn stupid money, but then they normally sort out there own social circle buy the time the kids leave primary school 😉
Pension isn't really a 'choice' when you think about it. What are you going to live on? Fresh air?
It's the same choice as a student loan. You choose to invest some of your current wealth into your future.
I have no idea what I'm going to live on. Swan?
It would be interesting to compare the table below with a decade ago....
Table 14: Proportion of working-age people currently accruing[1] a non-state pension (2009/10)[2]
Age
Women
Men
16 – 19
2%
3%
20 – 29
21%
19%
30 – 39
41%
44%
40 – 49
47%
55%
50 – SPA[3]
43%
47%
All
37%
40%
I was introduced to a network of toffs and aristocrats at a party last weekend.
I don't plan to quit my job soon 🙂
[img] 
[/img]
Pretty irrelevant to the overall thread, but it's a graph 😀
No I just got to know them and was offered smaller roles.
My partner is a consultant (self employed) and sells systems to companies.
Systems I helped design and she dragged me to meetings, presenting and explaining.
No pyramids, just thinking.
My background is in medical Physics, maths and business.
I love teaching but the workload and wage is a slap in a face. I'm not mentally challenged.
I would rather work the same hours in bigger projects and more money.
I want to be rich but not sure how to do it other than being innovative and modelling successful people.
Will it happen? Maybe not, but beats £30K a year.
I look at my old friends on £100k a year - I used to tutor or lend my work to. They are not that bright but worked smart and in the right place at the right time.
Helping people was my motive. Now it's £££££££.
Money won't make you happy. Only you can.
I would expect that graph to show the richest fifth to be higher than the poorest as most "rich" people would use their investments as their ultimate pension as assuming they are rich because of how they have invested then the growth on their assets would comfortably exceed any normal pension scheme offered by money grabbing companies.
other than being innovative and [b]modelling[/b]
I'd model for cash.
Denture manufacturers, call me!
I think in these debates it is important to highlight the range of factors affecting an individual's, or more importantly, a household's income.
Lets not lose sight of the obvious fact that having the money to do this the critical one.
fervoured - have you told your sister about the new girlfriend...
Or.....Brother of my wife 🙄
Money won't make you happy. Only you can.
Yet the entire thrust of your explanation suggests that you are desperate to make more money and are envious of those who make more than you.
Good luck.
The original interview was very interesting
for one thing it was quite a positive interview about a labour minister, a woman and a working mum too! it even mentions sexism, in the telegraph!!!
the initial tagline was
Rachel Reeves interview: 'minimum wage would be £19 an hour if it rose like bosses’ pay’
(like binners she read the toynbee piece that highlighted this- but it was actually ftse100 directors)
and heres she states
“The focus should be on a privileged few right at the top, and that’s not people earning £50,000 or £60,000 a year. If you’re a single-earner family in the South East on [that income], you don’t feel particularly rich, and you’d be aggrieved that people earning between £150,000 and £1?million are getting a tax cut. We don’t have any plans or desire to increase tax on people in that band of income.”
posted at 10pm on friday
at 10:02pm an edited version appears via James kirkup
People on £60,000 aren’t rich, says Labour's Rachel Reeves
were its been changed to
“I think the focus should be on those privileged few right at the top, and that’s not people earning £50,000 or £60,000 a year,” Miss Reeves said in an interview with The Telegraph.
initially she was talking about a couple earning a combined 50-60k (or 25-30k each ie national averageish)
2 minutes later the media had turned it into 60k ers arent rich
either way her offhand comments have opened up an interesting debate and her star seems to be rising in the labour party I wonder what would happen if she were to replace ed balls!!!!!!!
shes no chuka ummana 😉 (I turned off her infamous newsnight speech as it was very dull)
I would expect that graph to show the richest fifth to be higher than the poorest as most "rich" people would use their investments as their ultimate pension as assuming they are rich because of how they have invested then the growth on their assets would comfortably exceed any normal pension scheme offered by money grabbing companies.
Possibly entrepreneurs might be more interested in investing in their ventures earlier on in their working life but beyond that most rich people will have very decent pension pots due to the tax efficient nature of them. Not sure what you are calling a normal pension scheme but most that I am aware of invest unit trusts which isn't much different to how most people invest their spare cash.
If you've got young kids and you earn 25-30K each. You can kiss goodbye to one of those salaries in nursery fee's. At their peak ours were over £1800 a month. You'd need to earn £28K a year to pay them. I'm in the fortunate position we could pay them. I'm not sure how others manage.
If you've got young kids and you earn 25-30K each. You can kiss goodbye to one of those salaries in nursery fee's. At their peak ours were over £1800 a month. You'd need to earn £28K a year to pay them. I'm in the fortunate position we could pay them. I'm not sure how others manage.
If you've got young kids and you earn 25-30K each. You can kiss goodbye to one of those salaries in nursery fee's. At their peak ours were over £1800 a month. You'd need to earn £28K a year to pay them.
All a choice though, yes?
crikey - Member
If you've got young kids and you earn 25-30K each. You can kiss goodbye to one of those salaries in nursery fee's. At their peak ours were over £1800 a month. You'd need to earn £28K a year to pay them.
All a choice though, yes?
depends...
on your career- a 4 year gap can effectively set you back right to the beginning
...if you want to apply for a mortgage 2 salaries are better than one
... if the main earner (or both- happened to my wife and I this year!) were to loose their job could make a huge difference
Possibly entrepreneurs might be more interested in investing in their ventures earlier on in their working life but beyond that most rich people will have very decent pension pots due to the tax efficient nature of them. Not sure what you are calling a normal pension scheme but most that I am aware of invest unit trusts which isn't much different to how most people invest their spare cash.
I'm sure your right that the tax benefits outweigh the costs of a pension to most normal people, but I'm not sure they work the same for the really wealthy, heck I know people who's houses appreciate so fast that they laugh about how cheap interest only mortgages are, they don't use them as a way to buy a property, they use them to borrow money cheaply to invest in other things that give them a higher return on the money than the amount they pay in interest on the capitol they borrow on.
It doesn't happen in many areas, but lets just just sight places like Chelsea & Ken for an example.
Rich is after all rich, as I'm sure CFH will be along to tell you soon 😉
Still all a choice; the choice to have children, the choice to both work, the choice to use nursery and so on.
These are life choices which can and do impact on the way you use your income, but I suspect that the majority of two children families across the UK are not spending £1800 a month on nursery fees.
we live in brentford, not the nicest part of london our nursery bill for 2 is over 1800, not even the most expensive nursery in the area
and the original article specifically referred to the SE
wife and I are both professionals on decent salaries
if it wasnt for work childcare vouchers and the fact that I cycle to work every day, packed lunches etc it wouldnt be worth both of us working, Im currently on a short term contract so by xmas it might not be an issue!
childcare is a hugely disproportionate cost to families, and failure to support it only holds back the economy
childcare is a hugely disproportionate cost to families, and failure to support it only holds back the economy
I agree with both of those statements but having children is still a choice, and my opinion is still that the majority of families across the UK (and probably across Greater London) are not spending £1800 a month on nursery fees.
As stated, 60k is the same as 20k if you have the ability to spend it: 30k car instead of 10k, 400k house instead of 180k etc etc...
Jesus Christ, if childcare bills are adding up to 20K PA which is what at least 26K before tax plus travel why doesn't mum just stay at home, look after the children herself and watch them grow up rather than pay some 18year old girl who could not give a crap to do it for them.
I have no children at the moment but my OH is quite clear that unless is it is massively financially beneficial for her to work she would rather take 4-6 yrs out - So what if she 'looses' a few years, at least you will know who your children are!
This career driven mum thing is getting out of hand when it is just for the sake of 'not setting your career path back a few years'..... Call me old fashioned but this power woman thing is a load of arse.
This career driven[b] mum [/b]thing is getting out of hand when it is just for the sake of 'not setting your career path back a few years'..... Call me old fashioned but this power [b]woman[/b] thing crap.
You'll be taking a few years off to look after your kids then?
crankrider as regards to childcare, you are John Snow
and
at least you will know who your children are!
Not that my wife works much but there are weekends and evenings for those that do - indeed I'm out the house 60 hours a week and I know my son pretty well. The nursery he goes to is fantastic and and actually the staff are really into what they are doing and he learns a lot more there than he would at home. Not sure that both parents working full time would be ideal though but those I know that carry on their work think they're a lot happier by doing so. Not all work related decisions are financial.
No, but employment rules regarding maternity, usual male earnings outstripping women and plain old womans role of a mother make the woman the best choice surely.
This is a load of middle class career driven drivel. No wonder divorce rates ar so high and children are so screwed up nowdays - mummys gone to work so she doesnt loose out in the office race to middle management so you are going to an 20k pa hovel for a few years....
Most of this applies to southeners i expect....
No, but employment rules regarding maternity, usual male earnings outstripping women and plain old womans role of a mother make the woman the best choice surely.This is a load of middle class career driven drivel. No wonder divorce rates ar so high and children are so screwed up nowdays - mummys gone to work so she doesnt loose out in the office race to middle management so you are going to an 20k pa hovel for a few years....
Most of this applies to southeners i expect....
You have much to learn, and there is little time...
crankrider have you recently had your whip withdrawn from UKIP?
Kimbers, i could have guessed you were in london.... The world operates a little differently outiside of that strange bubble down there!
Working mums are of course acceptable, working for financial gain / necessity that is. Working only to cover the bills of a role better suited to yourself (your own childrens upbringing) is retarded.
crankrider have you recently had your whippet and flatcap stolen?
FTFY
It depends totally on where you live and whether you are supporting a family.
There are plenty of places in the South East where you couldn't buy a 2 bedroomed flat on £60k as a single person and supporting a family in the more expensive parts of the uk on £60k isn't going to make you rich.
To those that say money doesn't buy happiness have you ever been properly broke?
I'm skint and I'm livid.
Crank rider, our health visitor recommended that our daughter spend [i]more[/i] time in Nursery to work on her language development. I would disagree that Nursery carers are clueless, ours are very good. It's good to have balance.
I wouldn't disagree that things are far from ideal in the family unit; encouraging both parents to work has been a big factor in pushing up house (and nursery) prices. Why was there not more focus on dad staying at home and flexible working?
My brother in law earns 130k a year. His new girlfriend earns around the same (she does the same job for a different office overseas). The way he whines and moans you'd think he was scraping by on Jobseeker's Allowance.I am jealous and I do hate him.
Well why don't you stop hating and being jealous and start doing what that they do for a living?
doh - MemberTo those that say money doesn't buy happiness have you ever been properly broke?
I'm skint and I'm livid.
I've been homeless.
£6,000 is enough to live a healthy life, if you have no dependants.
Just.
Hahaha stw makes me laugh. 🙁
*you're
Why the resentment at people earning over the average wage?
Flaperon - MemberWhy the resentment at people earning over the average wage?
No resentment, as I have been on over it by up to 4 times it in the past and next years income will exceed 100k.
However as for the last 10 years I've been below the average I know what the difference means and the problems it creates.
The real issue is the gap between lowest paid and highest paid and the obscene levels of increases for top earners.
No resentment, as I have been on over it by up to 4 times it in the past and next years income will exceed 100k.However as for the last 10 years I've been below the average I know what the difference means and the problems it creates.
Interesting career with a 4x salary variation....
Why the resentment at people earning over the average wage?
Usually because people on less money think they work just as hard and are 'worth' just as much.
Why the resentment at people earning over the average wage?
Why not cut your own salary to that of the average wage and get back to us on that ?
Why not cut your own salary to that of the average wage and get back to us on that ?
Eh? So you are saying someone on the average wage is justified in resenting someone who earns above it?
Wow, £60k a year. I live with 3 mates, I don't think our 4 combined incomes would reach £60k!
I guess to earn that much, you'd be "cash rich and time poor" or something.
Two salaries at the UK average £26k is only very slightly less take-home than one at £60k.
So if there's only one salary in a household with kids etc £60k isn't as much as you think. Two teachers could easily bring in more, and you wouldn't consider teaching a rich profession.
It's very much down to individual circumstances, and where you live.
I don't earn 60k but earn a reasonable salary.
Getting divorced, starting again in my forties and buying a house with little equity and a large mortgage , whilst paying maintenance, having 3 children, and living as a single parent, certainly doesn't leave much for luxuries.
Lots in a worse situation than me though.
I wish I could have £60k a year starting this year as I have just been shafted by some back-stabbers at work ... 😡
Now I need to start a business to survive ...
davidtaylforth - Member
Wow, £60k a year. I live with 3 mates, I don't think our 4 combined incomes would reach £60k!I guess to earn that much, you'd be "cash rich and time poor" or something.
as was actually stated in the interview where the figure came from - she was talking about a family in the south east with combined incomes of 50-60k
between us, me and my wife earn about 60k. 700 quid a month childcare tends to make being rich fairly tricky 🙂
Fair do's. Still sounds like alot though, when my mum and dad were together, their combined incomes was probably around £30k. Although this was some years ago....
I think your concept of £60K pa being rich also depends on what surrounds you. I work in an independent school with fees of £30K pa - I get to see what proper rich actually looks like every day. All of my work colleagues earn less than £60K but a lot live with a working partner so the household income is above. I'd not call any of us rich by comparison. If I was surrounded in my day to day life by those who were receiving income support I might have a different opinion. Similarly I spend a week every year in Swaziland at a rural school and orphanage. I suspect they would think of uk residents on income support as living in the height of luxury.
she also never said they were rich only that labour had no current plans to increase tax on a 50-60k family
it was the telegraph that completely misquoted her in the follow up to their own interview with her
davidtaylforth - this isn't meant in a derogatory way, but out of interest, how old are you and what do you do if you don't mind saying?
28, draw stuff on a computer
Wow, £60k a year. I live with 3 mates, I don't think our 4 combined incomes would reach £60k!I guess to earn that much, you'd be "cash rich and time poor" or something.
Depends on the job somewhat.
28, draw stuff on a computer
Always had you down as a little older tbh 😉 Is there not much money in CAD drawing?
I can understand that £60k is seen as a very good salary/wage, however does anyone struggle to make £25k - I don't mean through choice, but genuine situation?
however does anyone struggle to make £25k - I don't mean through choice, but genuine situation?
according to this quite a few.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom[/url]
Well, I gathered that much MrSmith - I didn't really make it clear, but the question was aimed at people who might respond on here, not the general population of the UK so much.
however does anyone struggle to make £25k - I don't mean through choice, but genuine situation?
That would be me, but I'm managing, there really isn't much else around here, and definitely not much pays that kind of figure apart from teaching. But in saying that, it's not an expensive part of the country to live.
[i]however does anyone struggle to make £25k - I don't mean through choice, but genuine situation?[/i]
Single and live with your folks, you'll be fine...
Have kids, and you'll be relying on benefits/credits.
On the mis-quote idea, you can make your mind up re the extent to which the Torygraph were manipulating (or otherwise) what was said.
The Liberal Democrats have said they would find the money by taxing the richest, which a leaked party document suggested meant anyone earning more than £50,000.[b] Miss Reeves said that it was wrong to consider such people as “rich”. “If you’re a single-earner family in London or the South East on £50,000 or £60,000, you don’t feel particularly rich [/b]and you’d be equally aggrieved that people earning between £150,000 and £1?million are getting a tax cut at the same time your taxes are going up.” Miss Reeves said Labour had “shown whose side we are on” by calling for the 50p top rate of tax, which the Coalition cut to 45p, to be reintroduced for those earning more than £150,000 a year.
Not that it really matters. This is about electioneering pure and simple. Each party knows its target market and the swing markets and will promote policies to maximise their vote. What's new?
Mrs Freeagent and I both have good jobs and probably earn about 80k between us.
We live in a nice bit of the southeast, have two kids in childcare and various other drains on our income, so no, we don't feel rich.
However it is all our choice - We could flog the house tomorrow, buy something in a less desirable area and knock £100k off our mortgage. We could pull the kids out of all their little clubs and classes they do, get rid of one of our cars and have a bit of disposable income, but I'm happy with the way things are.
We certainly don't want anything from the government, but would resent paying anymore tax to pay for ridiculous socialist ideologies or other follies.
Mrs Freeagent and I both have good jobs and probably earn about 80k between us.
We live in a nice bit of the southeast, have two kids in childcare and various other drains on our income, so no, we don't feel rich.
Well, according to Junkyard, you're still scum.