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My Christmas present to myself this year was an armful of old vinyl which I’ve been listening to the last couple of evenings.
It dawned on me that as a teenager, I used to really want a subwoofer, but obviously wasn’t allowed one. Nor could I afford one as a paperboy.
It’s now dawned on me that a. I’m now mostly unsupervised b. I live in a detached house and c. We now have eBay to win bargains.
A subwoofer would clearly be the sensible option now, wouldn’t it? Presumably it would make the music come alive morerer?
Anything to look out for on eBay to browse on a Saturday evening?
Ta
REL make good one ...
A subwoofer is simply the best thing ever. I for one respect any man who decides he needs to buy a subwoofer.
A subwoofer would clearly be the sensible option now, wouldn’t it? Presumably it would make the music come alive morerer?
The simple answer is yes, yes it will if your speakers lack bass.
Anything to look out for
Depending on the size of your room, I wouldn't get anything smaller than a ten inch active woofer.
You do need to dial them into you existing set up - you need to balance the sub's amp volume and crossover cut off, to blend with your existing speakers, turning everything up to 11 will just result in a boomy muddy mess.
A sub will not compensate you if your existing speakers are crap at mid range and high frequencies, though, they just take the heavy lifting away for teh bass.
BK Electronics XLS200 is what you need. BK used to OEM for REL and they are well priced and very very good.
A decent sub, well set up, will improve just about any set of speakers going. Wouldn't be without mine.
Get one, they are great!
I've had one for years, remarkably cheap and not too choosy where it's located.
Wharfdale Diamond subs are a perennially solid budget choice.
The off thing about a woofer, for me, is I really notice it if it's not on. Some films etc really benefit the low rumble it gives.
Are most home subs active these days? As opposed to soundsystem subs I mean. I know mine is but no idea if that's the norm.
It needs to be carefully tuned so it just gives a lift to the lower frequencies, less is more so it doesn’t make the bass overblown. I have a rel strata 3 which is intended more for music rather than movies, it is very tuneable and reinforces the lower frequencies of my Spendor A6r floorstanders brilliantly. Bass is non directional so room placement can be fairly flexible.
Much like a previous comment, I don't notice it when its on, but boy do I notice something is not quite right when its off - mines a fairly small Cambridge Audio Minx X201 Active Subwoofer, love it (paired with Q Acoustics 3020i if that helps)...
A REL for music. There are small cheap subwoofers which work OK for adding thump to films but music needs a bit better.
Wharfdale Diamond subs are a perennially solid budget choice.
So this is on Amazon for £150
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wharfedale-Diamond-SW150-Subwoofer-Black/dp/B0036EEOSQ
And “what HiFi” has the following to say:
OUR VERDICT
A true champion of subwoofers, in terms of performance and price – it’s a quality piece of budget equipmentFOR
Excellent value for money
plenty of weight and low-frequency presence
it’s a tidy looking unit, too
AGAINST
There’s absolutely no reason to criticise it at this bargain price
Seems like a no brainier to me. What am I missing?
Q Acoustics 3060s here. Performs well above its price and can normally be had for around 250. It’s active and can be placed anywhere. Works well with smaller speakers that most people have these days. It looks better than most big black boxes and can slip into a smaller gap between furniture.
Happy wharfdale diamond owner over here.
Bk elec is my go to for subs. Used to have a Gemini but it dgot a dodgy connection so I had to upgrade to a p12. Amazing tightness considering the size of it, I pair it with some floorstanders with twin 6.5" woofers to give a nice balance across frequency ranges.
I wouldn't do a 8" sub, but I'd also say that a 12" won't pair well with a pair of bookstand speakers in a small room.
If anyone handy with wiring wants my old Gemini for a couple of beers, lemme know
What is it going to be paired with Scruff?
NAD turntable / projector through a Cambridge Audio A1 amp and TDL floorstander speakers.
https://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers.htm British built big boom boom
xls200 here for pleasing woofage
If anyone handy with wiring wants my old Gemini for a couple of beers, lemme know
Anywhere near Glasgow / Ayrshire…? 🙂
I’ve had home (and car) subs for many years.
Advice as above. BK Electronics will get you the best sound per pound. Xls200 is great for music and is what I started with , alongside TDL rtl3 mains - which are not exactly bass shy.
Now have a bigger SVS sub in the lounge and one of the £150 Wharfedales in the office. It’s ok but wouldn’t have it as a main sub as it sounds rubbish loud.
What amp do you have, as bass management will come in handy.
And when you get it, put the sub in your listening position and crawl round the room to find where it sounds the best. Then put the sub there - it isn’t always where you put it by default. This is particularly useful if you don’t have time alignment or distance management in the amp.
Do I want one of these? I like listening pretty quietly but I like rich warm room filling bass at the same time. I think the frequencies I want to boost are probably higher than those supplied by a sub.
No advice on what to buy, but we added the Sonos sub to our Beam and two Ikea/Sonos speakers. Definitely made a big difference for TV and music. The great thing (for me) about Sonos is you plug it in, do the wander round the room with your phone thing on the app and then start listening 🙂
The Wharfdales also seem near indestructible, had mine for almost 15 years now and it just keeps trucking.
Almost annoying as I'd like an excuse to upgrade to something a bit tastier but I can't justify the spend unless it actually dies.
I think the frequencies I want to boost are probably higher than those supplied by a sub.
On mine at least, there's a dial which sets the frequency cut-off. So you can add filling-looseners to full-sized speakers or add a wider bass range to supplement smaller ones.
@phil5556 near Brighton so.. err.. no. Sorry!
Ah well, worth a try cheers!
I’ve been considering a sub for a while, and I quite like fixing things 🙂
I've got one of those little Cambridge Minx X201s as well. My preference would have been BK Electronics. Seem to be very well regarded by the hi fi community (loved dearly on av forums) and hit the value for money point as well. However, it was a bit too big for Mes BC so, at the time, the Minx was it. And it's ok. As others have said, you only really notice it when there are big bass rumbly things happening and it's blindingly obvious that the sub is active or when it's switched off and you become aware of its absence. Only have one on my "home cinema" set up though, not on the hifi
I can attest to the power and benefit of BK subwoofers, as I had a Monolith DF that was wired into both hifi and AV. The cannons in Master & Commander almost blew out the windows and was felt in the thorax. Made a good side table as well.
I feel a "what dub tunes" thread imminent.
I got the dali e9f, at a decent lick it actually distorts vision. You need a sub
Yes you need one. They’re awesome.
Mine is a fairly discrete 10” model from M&K (on an AV set up) - but, my god it sounds good.
Had a B&W PV1 for a while, cracking bit of kit.
Was watching Paranormal Activity on my own one night when the bass caused a pan in the kitchen to fall off the draining board and land on a tile floor. I nearly hit the ****in ceiling!
I’ve a Tannoy one that came as part of a 5.1 set. It’s a bit overshadowed by the front speakers I now use so I’m tempted by one of those 12” BK subs.
I’m tempted by one of those 12” BK subs.
You won't regret it.. mine is backing some monitor audio br1s and is subtle, but definitely adds a chunk of low end weight
REL. bought an old Strata years ago. It adds just the right texture to my bookshelf Sonus Fabers. It’s very subtle. Until you watch a film and the. It goes to 11 and the house will shake. Mine is fed from the amp parallel with the speakers. A line input is also possible.
It’s huge and the amp is sat on it. Buy this
JPW Gold Monitors + Sub
This is what I had in my bedroom in my parents' place, lovely balanced sound, but I sold them like a ****.
The BK elec XLS200 is a great buy. I’ve had one in my surround system for a good few years. Got a bit obsessed with subs about a year ago (to add one in the kitchen) and started looking at replacing it with an XLS400 but it’s a *lot* bigger so in the end picked up another 200 for £180 on eBay (BK stuff rarely goes cheap unless it’s collection only somewhere remote). Then I picked up an MJ Acoustics pro3 for £160.
So they’re an interesting pair £350 vs £575 new and manufacturer direct vs retail. Similar size, same inputs and controls - definitely competing in the same space. I messed with the MJ in all 3 rooms. It definitely goes slightly lower but at the expense of sometimes sounding distorted and being much harder to make “disappear” in the room. (I wonder if the bk has some eq going on to keep it sounding sweet and roll off the lowest frequencies it can’t deliver without distorting)
I reckon the BK is definitely the better buy, even more so at new price. Between Xmas and new year seems a great time to pick up bargains on eBay.
@phil5556 what connection do you think is duff and where are you?
@b33k34 I think that last bit was aimed at me. It's definitely somewhere in the input circuit, if you thump the top of the thump it'll work for, say, 10 mins then just cut out again. The eq lights don't come on when it's out (which are pre amp as I understand), so if you were happy to wire past that, you'd probably have it working? I don't know circuits enough. South coast, not far from brighton
Just thought I'd update - I bought the Wharfdale sub from amazon and been using it the last 2 weeks.
It's quite frankly been a wonderful revelation - I expected it to work best on loud & big boshy tracks. It certainly does that but what I didn't expect was it to give a lovely warmth and full sound on music when played at 'ambient' / 'background when working' sorta levels.
For a £150 spend, it feels like money very well spent indeed!
I expected it to work best on loud & big boshy tracks. It certainly does that but what I didn’t expect was it to give a lovely warmth and full sound on music when played at ‘ambient’ / ‘background when working’ sorta levels.
Yep, ultimatley they are to fill out the lower frequencies that smaller speakers struggle to reproduce - as opposed just to being loud and boomy (you're doing it wrong if that's the result).
Yep, ultimatley they are to fill out the lower frequencies that smaller speakers struggle to reproduce
My office has a lovely old set of Monitor Audio Radius 90's - they sound great, but they're only rated down to 80Hz (and probably roll off some way above that). Adding a sub to those completely changed the sound.
This is a load of tracks that you might hear completely new elements to -
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6SLqRhCew6gqkoEltq0Sp9?si=9b66afdfb7bc4bca
Any of these popular entry level hifi subs have two inputs?
I already have a fairly cheap sub that goes with my surround sound, I would rather not have two if I could help it.
Glad you like the Wharfdale Scruff, the really hard to beat for the cash.
Since my last post on here I've added a Q Acoustic 3060S to the Denon mini system that's wired into my WFH station so we are now a 2-Subwoofer house hold.
Much Dub was appreciated on it's arrival I can tell you.
give it a work out!
@molgrips the BK subs all have dual input (independently controlled), I think
certainly their "budget" one does
You'll need a specific lead though (you can buy from them or elsewhere)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115297559935?hash=item1ad845257f:g:rd8AAOSwbgdhoP~h (this is their ebay outlet for tiny cosmetic faults)
Ta. My Echo Link has a digital crossover and a sub output, so I just realised I can plug in my AV one just to see what it's like. I think it has a stereo input, so theoretically I can plug the hifi into L and the AV into R, no?
I suspect a cheap av amp will only have a single mono in.
The bk amps do have 2 inputs, but one is high level (ie taps your speaker feed, not line level), which may not be what you're after. Otherwise a y splitter cable will probably do the job
Check the size of the thing before you buy it!
I got a Q Associates 3070 - to match the 3010 speakers - and its as big as a suitcase
high level (ie taps your speaker feed, not line level), which may not be what you’re after
I thought that was exactly what is wanted for hifi ?? (same signal, blahblah)
(IANA...)
The BK subs have separately adjustable high and low level inputs. So you can connect your surround amp to the low level (and have the ability amp set the crossover point) and the speaker level output from your high amp and adjust the volume and crossover for that at the sub.
One of my BK xls200s had an amp failure recently (bought second hand and is now 11 years old). I removed the amp panel and BK re-capped it and shipped it back to me for £45. Great service.
My echo link has line level sub output same as my av receiver
Yeah so you've got 3 line level outputs going to one sub. Imo the easiest solution is a y cable but you may end up with them unbalanced. What's the surround sound system? It may be the sub is expecting an amplified feed even over an RCA connection.
I run my echo link amp to a sub via the line level, but as pointed out above you can run the speaker cables there (as well as to the speakers) on most bk subs and it'll de-amp it (??) And accept the input
I've been looking into getting a sub recently. Bought a 2nd hand nadc355bee on eBay that is great although feel the speakers are lacking bass. The polk psw10 seems to get good reviews
It may be the sub is expecting an amplified feed even over an RCA connection.
Just had a look, current sub (Tannoy SFX) has both speaker inputs via spring terminals and RCA connectors explicitly marked line level. The current AV is connected via the line level one, left channel marked LFE.
Imo the easiest solution is a y cable but you may end up with them unbalanced
Presumably you mean a cable to plug both outputs into the same input. What do you mean about it being unbalanced?
Something like this?
+1 REL
I have a Quake and a Strata 3.
The latest small Kefs also get some good reviews.
[both are setup in a hifi system, not AV, and both use the high-level (Neutrik) connection to the amp's speaker outputs. For hifi use this is regarded as a better way to do it compared to line level.]
For hifi use this is regarded as a better way to do it compared to line level.
Why?
For hifi use this is regarded as a better way to do it compared to line level.
Less “better” more “only”. An AV amp will vary the level of the LIne level signal to the sub with the volume. A normal stereo hifi amp won’t do that - it will just send a fixed level signal regardless of the amp volume. Using the speaker level input on the sub means the sub volume will change with the amp volume.
(There may be some exceptions If a hifi amp has a specific sub output.)
it sounds better
Has anyone got an Audio Pro Addon T? Particularly paired with T20 speakers?
Less “better” more “only”. An AV amp will vary the level of the LIne level signal to the sub with the volume. A normal stereo hifi amp won’t do that – it will just send a fixed level signal regardless of the amp volume.
Well my system has neither, so I'll go and try it now. Everyone's out.
Happy SW150 owner here also. Paired with some Diamond 9.1s.
Just coming off the amp speaker outputs, two channels into one.
Works well, sounds great.
it sounds better
it shouldn't sound better. you're passing an unamplified signal in the amp, though the amplification circuitry, then to the subwoofer, then de-amplifying it just to get the original un-amplified signal (which then passes through a crossover and is reamplified again, so it can be played). Those extra signal processing steps should reduce quality, not improve it.
The specs I can find on the internet for my speakers suggests the frequency response is down to 80Hz, but clearly this applies to some sort of level and it the response doesn't just drop off immediately. The problem I had with my Tannoy AV sub is that it's a bit rubbish and far worse quality than the speakers, which aren't exactly high end anyway. With the crossover set to 50Hz and the sub turned up a bit it sounded well.. more bassy, but I'm not sure it was actually any better.
You would expect a better sub like one of the ones mentioned here would be a better option in terms of actual sound reproduction which would allow me to use higher frequencies without making it sound worse.
They did make a sub to go with my speakers (Celestion F20/S20) if I can find one used.
From what I can find online the manufacturers freq response of your speakers shows it has a 3db reduction at 60hz but given their specs and the low £120 cost that the freq response will start to roll off much higher as they only have a 130mm main drive unit, I imagine they will will start to drop off at 100hz and from an engineering perspective i can't see how any budget 130mm driver can produce 60hz, being rear ported they will be dependant on room position for any bass response. I'd set the sub freq crossover at 120hz and reduce it by 10hz till I found a happy medium.
My current AV sub then is too shit to match my speakers because it sounded absolutely rubbish with a higher crossover frequency.
I have a paradigm pdr-10... A ten inch active woofer.. It's seriously powerful but I don't think they make that particular model any more.
I'd go with a ten incher unless your room is vast.
An 8 incher, unless incredibly well optimised isn't really going to do the job
The video below may be of help in choosing a suitable sub,
@molgrips, i would be surprised if a cheap sub is doing much below 40hz, so if it doesnt work with a higher crossover it's truly junk..
@mattyfez - the advantage of a bigger cone is imo more the depth than the volume. I really noticed the upgrade from a Gemini ii to a p12, even though I was rarely maxing out the Gemini.
the advantage of a bigger cone is imo more the depth than the volume
And, I think, doing it with a lack of distortion. As well as BK XLS200 I picked up a MJ Acoustics Pro 50 MkIII from Ebay. At retail price in Black Ash the BK is £360 and the MJAcoustics now £595. Both have 10" drivers
Despite having a slightly smaller box the MJA definitely goes lower, but I've tried it on three different systems/rooms and I prefer the BK on all of them. It might not go quite as low but I can never get the Mj to "disappear" - it just doesn't mesh with the other speakers as well. I suspect that while it goes low it's a bit 'dirty' at the lower frequencies - I wonder if BK filter out the low stuff their sub can deliver but not do so well?
Hell yes. Having a Friday beer and realised the world is decent and full of people who still concentrate on the important things. Well done STW, this is a great thread.
I have been looking for an excuse to update a pair of 20+yr old Mission book standing speakers for about the last 10 years, but they sound good to me and there is nought wrong with them. But a subwoofer…
There's no replacement for displacement. (to coin a petrol head term).
A bigger woffer can always potentially sound better (when properly integrated), but an 18" sub will always lack the punch of a ten or twelve, all things being equal.