[Closed] So can we call Edwarden Snowden a hero yet ?

what about our PM ?

The difference is that we didn't start two world wars.

It's sensible to keep an eye on what the Germans are up to imo.

what about our PM ?

One former insider says that, in the course of targeting other individuals, the NSA may well have eavesdropped on David Cameron's phone calls. The UK-US special relationship, he said, is not enshrined in law.

Of course call me Dave will suck up to the merkins, just like a playground bullies sidekick who has taken a thump from the bully will ignore the indiscretion to stay part of the bullies gang. As would any UK PM I can remember.

It is about time Snowdon was offered asylum by a European country, but it won't happen.

The difference is that we didn't start two world wars.

It's sensible to keep an eye on what the Germans are up to imo.

..and with that, time to switch off the laptop!

The difference is that we didn't start two world wars.

It's sensible to keep an eye on what the Germans are up to imo.

To be fair, if the countries Germany had invaded had put up as little resistance as those conquered by the UK in the time of empire, there wouldn't have been two world wars.

So can we call Edwarden Snowden a hero yet ?

Yes (pp/s: not hero but someone who is brave), because NO govt can be trusted as they are all infested by maggots!

🙄

p/s: previously I would say no but for last few weeks my opinion has changed due to so many scumbags showing their true colours ... solicitors, schools ... people.

?
Traitors . Never, what ever their reasons.

I wouldn't call him a hero, but I am impressed by his actions.
Deepens my dislike of the US administration.

I think that Edward Snowden and Julian Assange are heroes.

Both are making sure that we all know what the big-bad USA is up to and what they are capable of.

We should all be glad people like them exist and are prepared to put their lives on hold simply to make sure we're all well informed.

I'd love a European country to offer either of them asylum - teach the Yanks that they need to be nicer to people 😆

Traitors . Never, what ever their reasons.

Not even those who help us when we attack and invade a country ?

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/afghan-interpreters-serving-with-british-troops-sent-to-their-deaths-if-not-offered-asylum-8762327.html ]Afghan interpreters serving with British troops ‘sent to their deaths’ if not offered asylum[/url]

or those exposing the actions of a corrupt governments actions against its own people and "friends".

I find in most cases it is those in authority that should be branded traitors, not the whistleblowers.

Deepens my dislike of the US administration.

It's not as if the UK aren't in this dungheap up to our armpits.

A traitor to their government, or their countrymen?
I think snowden deserves a ****ing knighthood.

If we were able to scratch the surface of our countries secret service and MI6 dealings then i imagine we'd be just as disgusted to what goes on in our name, personally i don't trust the police - they lie, don't trust the government - they lie, don't trust any so called authoritarian rule in general as they also lie but i do have a handful of friends whom i can trust implicitly and that'll do me.

As would any UK PM I can remember.

Lady Thatcher didn't. Kicked Reagen into touch over the Cold War and bought about the fall of the Iron Curtain. Also famously had SAS troops 'whilst on holiday and not on active service' doing some work abroad to prevent US Forces doing something or other (probably bombing the shit out of yet another country). And of course she didn't bow down to the US funded IRA/PIRA terrorists.

Lady Thatcher brought down the iron curtain 😯

Oh I see it was a joke.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The difference is that we didn't start two world wars.
It's sensible to keep an eye on what the Germans are up to imo.

Genius!

We and others have always spied on our allies as well as our foes. Perhaps the only surprising thing in this case, is the fact that it was her personal mobile. And that wasn't secure? What were the German security folk up to?

We stole all the questions relating to UK entry to a certain international organisation not that long ago. I can't imagine we are/were alone.

And of course she didn't bow down to the US funded IRA/PIRA terrorists.

That worked particularly well.

I'm really rather amused that the politicians are getting all upset by the thought of their being hacked/recorded when it is obviously OK for the rest of us 😆

I mean, if they've nothing to hide, what's the problem?

. And of course she didn't bow down to the US funded IRA/PIRA terrorists.

If this was a Hollywood movie, in the vein of something like 'Enemy of the State' for example, then yes Edward Snowden would very much be the hero.

Thatcher refused to yield to terrorists and set the precedent for what happened a few yrs later, take a bow Bliar and Mowlam

I think that Edward Snowden and Julian Assange are heroes.

+1

The difference is that we didn't start two world wars

Anyone who is prepared to confront America over its terrorism of smaller, weaker and usually browner countries deserves our admiration.

thank fk for tony blair and mo molam!

And Germany was not first to declare war in either

That's how sneaky they are.

I rest my case.

MI5 spied on the UK Labour Government ! The fact is everyone is making a fuss but all of these revelations are not particularly surprising. Assange proved the US Government was lying about Iraq, not really news. The US Government spies on everyone including Americans, ditto.

I think that Edward Snowden and Julian Assange are heroes.

Both are making sure that we all know what the big-bad USA is up to and what they are capable of.

We should all be glad people like them exist and are prepared to put their lives on hold simply to make sure we're all well informed.

I'd love a European country to offer either of them asylum - teach the Yanks that they need to be nicer to people

And John major, who did most of the heavy lifting.

Big deal, governments spy on eachother. Hardly the best kept secret. We're all spying on eachother, always have. That's politics. What he has done is compromise the safety of operatives and hampered the effectiveness of ours and the USs spying ability thereby increasing the chances of a terrorist attack.

Who know's, the shopping mall massacre in Nairobi might well have been stopped if Ed had not exposed the methods and extent of the USs spying activities. The yanks certainly knew who to hit shortly after the massacre so they were clearly on their watch list. After Eds help the terrorists might have very well changed their tactics ahead of the attack meaning they slipped the intelligence net and the attack not anticipated. I'm just speculating to illustrate a point, but none of us will ever know. That's the point. Anyone who thinks his revelations have not put peoples lives at risk and handed those who wish to harm us at an advantage is just naive. Loose lips sink ships is just as true today as it was in WW2.

What he has done is compromise the safety of operatives and hampered the effectiveness of ours and the USs spying ability thereby increasing the chances of a terrorist attack.

Its not a great case you have put fwd but he will have undoubtedly compromised some of what they do - probably the dodgy shit they do to us all that is semi legal. IN much the same way the MP;s expenses scandal has compromised MP's

wobbliscott - Member

Anyone who thinks his revelations have not put peoples lives at risk and handed those who wish to harm us at an advantage is just naive. Loose lips sink ships is just as true today as it was in WW2.

I suggest someone start fueling both sides to start the nuke war to reduce the entire human population by 60% ... biological, chemical, genetic whatever ... just reduce the population! Maggots infestation must be eradicated.

wobbliscott - Member

Anyone who thinks his revelations have not put peoples lives at risk and handed those who wish to harm us at an advantage is just naive.

OTOH, if the US was more ethical in their espionage, he wouldn't have felt compelled to leak, so it's easy to reverse that and point the finger at those who've allowed it to get out of hand, therefore endangering operations.

I'm not offering up any evidence, just speculating to illustrate a possible scenario - and the attack may have taken place on foreign soil, but so what - all these things are interconnected, terrorism is international and is an attack on our way of life and other countries way of life, so again, just because terrible things happen on faraway shores doesn't mean its not linked to anything that might affect us in the future. We can't just bury our heads in the sand and ignore what's going on in the wider world.

Part of spying is gathering intel from many different sources (sometimes in partnership with other countries, sometimes not) and cross referencing that with other snippets of information and building up a bigger picture. Spying doesn't work unless you're spying on everyone as its a global problem involving many countries.

I'm glad our government is spying and I hope they continue to do so. Its their duty and obligation to do so in order to deliver their first and foremost obligation to us - to provide security. Without security our whole way of life and fabric of our society will unravel.

I'm not sure where ethics comes into espionage. By its very nature its unethical.

Its their duty and obligation to do so in order to deliver their first and foremost obligation to us - to provide security.

terrorism is international and is an attack on our way of life and other countries way of life,

Indeed if they did not spy on us our very way of life would quite literally collapse before our eyes

^ 🙄
Someone's in love with Big Brother.

As for Snowden, brave yes, hero not so sure. He could be a stooge. He didn't reveal anything truly earth-shattering. He's no David Icke for instance

you mean he is sane?

I think he meant he hasn't revealed anything truly earth shattering like David Icke.

You've got to admit revealing that the Royal Family are lizards was pretty earth shattering.

6079smithw: Someone's in love with Big Brother.

Snowden: brave yes, intelligent yes, cute, err. yes. 😀

Looks at snowdon in a different light accepts AdamW has a point, the tart 😉

Needs better glasses. And a gym membership. Think a proper beard would suit him Adam?

Anyone who steals hundreds of thousands of classified documents and then passes 58,000 of them on to journalists who subsequently try to move them out of the country on a laptop which has the encryption password in the bag it is being carried in deserves no praise.

Snowden is a prize fool and has put the lives of some security personnel at risk and also compromised their ability to discretely monitor favoured channels of communication that dodgy types currently use - the disclosure in the Guardian of the means used to evesdrop Tor are a perfect example of this.

Ultimately to many Snowden people will be a hero right up to the point someone they know gets blown to bits in an attack that wasn't picked up in time. It's worth remembering that nearly all of the 300+ britons convicted of terrorism related offences over the last 9 years have been detected through a combination of surveillance and intelligence.

Telling their peers how we will try and find /stop them won't help the security of our country and given that MI5 are currently actively monitoring nearly 3,000 jihadists in Britain we've just made their task a lot harder and increased the chances of a successful attack.

loving wobbliscots fatuous implications that snowden leaks are responsible for the nairobi attack

surely it just emphasises how useless spies are- see also boston bombings

heres a great blog posted up last time the snowden leaks were discussed here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/BUGGER

robdixon- so it comes as a surprise that their emails werent actually secure?

the joke is that snowdens data was in no way secure, the US/Uk government only knew hed taken it after they read it in the papers

and snowden was just 1 of 483000 other private contractors that had access to this data and we have no way of knowing whats already been leaked to china, iran, etc etc

I think most of those 300 convicted were 'groomed' by the security services. Which does raise the issue of who is really behind 'terrorsim'.

robdixon - Member

It's worth remembering that nearly all of the 300+ britons convicted of terrorism related offences over the last 9 years have been detected through a combination of surveillance and intelligence.

Yep, and none of that could have happened without snooping on Angela Merkel's sexts.

Personally I think Snowdon is a bit of a dick, bit like Bradley Manning. Its one thing to nick a bit of specific information and release it but to steel whole swathes of unread unspecific data is just stupid. All of us on here would be the first ones to ask what MI6 and MI5 were doing if there was another 7/7, so making their job harder is not the best thing to do. Like it or not for intelligence to work there needs to be secrets.

agreed bugging Merkel;s phone is completely unacceptable and its fine if Snowdon just released this info but telling people how the authorities track terrorists only helps the terrorists.

Lastly what do we think GCHQ does with its massive headquarters and 1000's of staff?

It's worth remembering that nearly all of the 300+ britons convicted of terrorism related offences over the last 9 years have been detected through a combination of surveillance and intelligence.

It's also worth remembering that of that 300, some have been convicted of nothing more than owning a few books and writing a few poems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samina_Malik

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/13/uksecurity

It's also worth remembering that a 'combination of surveillance and intelligence' led to the murder of a completely innocent Brazilian electrician.

It's also worth remembering that quite a few convictions have been overturned.

It's also worth remembering that a 'combination of surveillance and intelligence' was absolutely useless in preventing the 7/7 attacks. And whilst there have been successes by the security services, far too often, a 'combination of surveillance and intelligence' is used in the wrong way towards people who should have the right to a private life and not be treated as 'suspects' or 'dodgy' simply because of their political leanings.

http://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/
http://www.organizedrage.com/2013/09/uk-police-admit-involvement-in.html

And finally, it's well worth remembering that the security forces act with Public Consent, and at all times must be answerable to the very society they are charged with serving, not as secret police for those whose agendae serve only themselves, at the expense of Freedom and Democracy.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I'm gobsmacked that America spies on the leader of a western government with no agenda against them. Didn't they carry out a risk assessment? What can you gain versus the damage if the Germans find out?

I imagine a few people are being fired in America over this lack of judgement.

Imagine hacking your friends email accounts to see what they say about you?

The guys a traitor simple as, you sign the documents to abide by a code, if you don't like it don't do it. Spying has always been a dirty business, and poeple always spy on everyone friends and foe. I'm sure the really reason France or German are kicking up a fuss is to deflect attention from the fact that their agencies were clearly rubbish at preventing it.

The terrorism thing is actually a distraction, the main worries will still be the likes of the Middle East, Korea, Russia, China etc. They are now laughing. However, it does make you wonder how much info they knew already if the NSA security was so lax.

I mean, if they've nothing to hide, what's the problem?

^This.

Snowden and Assange should be strung up. Traitors to their nations, the pair of them.

How come the Germans didn't find this out for themselves ? Reckon there should be a few Germans getting the sack over this lack of expertise.

And if they can't find the US tapping a mobile, what chance of them finding what the Chinese or Russians are up to?

As for the French ….pah ….. when did some US bashing ever do a french Politian any harm… God knows Hollande could do with all the help he can get right now.

I think the key point here is that we have a right to privacy. This applies to not only our government but to all governments- even the mighty US. Edward Snowden has shown, at massive personal sacrifice and entirely for our benefit, that the US government believes that we do not have a right to privacy and is acting accordingly. Just because it is easier to snoop on people's private lives it does not give you the right to do so.

All of us on here would be the first ones to ask what MI6 and MI5 were doing if there was another 7/7

Snowden and Assange should be strung up. Traitors to their nations, the pair of them.

im still struggling to see what exactly Snowden has revealed to these terrorists that may aid them?

anyone??

dragon - Member

The terrorism thing is actually a distraction, the main worries will still be the likes of the Middle East, Korea, Russia, China etc. They are now laughing.

Ah right, so what you're saying is that the intelligence agencies have been distracted by the opportunity to use terrorism as their excuse to increase intrusion into the lives of their own citizens, to the detriment of their activities against potentially hostile foreign powers? TBH that sounds a lot worse than the leaks.

[quote=hora ]Imagine hacking your friends email accounts to see what they say about you?
Doesn't everyone? 😳

The US spent 10's of millions trying to find evidence that the Manning leaks had put lives at risk, they couldn't find any. The supposed damage done by these leaks to espionage, counter terrorism and operatives lives only exists in the sound bites of politicians greedy for control.

The guys a traitor simple as, you sign the documents to abide by a code, if you don't like it don't do it.

Following orders is not an acceptable excuse, never has been and hopefully never will be. It is strange how we apply rules differently to nations we see as below us than we apply them to ourselves.

Northwind, yeah possibly but two wrongs don't make a right.

How did Assange betray Australia?

Cybicle +1

if the US was more ethical in their espionage

"Hello CIA here, would it be convenient if we bugged your calls? Possibly starting next Monday. Maybe around 3:30? I'll send round a letter confirming this arrangement with a form you can fill in to opt-out if you feel you don't want this arrangement in the future."

The US (and the Uk and the rest of Europe) could put more effort into not creating future enemies rather than being in a constant firefight. Although it is begining to look like much of that that firefight is in the imaginations of the security services.

breatheeasy - Member

if the US was more ethical in their espionage

"Hello CIA here, would it be convenient if we bugged your calls? Possibly starting next Monday. Maybe around 3:30? I'll send round a letter confirming this arrangement with a form you can fill in to opt-out if you feel you don't want this arrangement in the future."

"Hello NSA here, we are very sorry one of our agents informed you that we are illegally collecting every scrap of data you will ever produce. Luckily for us you seem to quite like this idea so would you like to sign up for our premium service with a free rectal examination thrown in"
*Disclaimer this information is open to abuse at any time now or in the future and may be shared with 3rd parties.

johnellison - Member

Snowden and Assange should be strung up. Traitors to their nations, the pair of them.

If you've got nothing to hide, why do you have curtains in your house?

Nations are just artificial political constructs. Better to be a supposed traitor to a nation (Snowden, Assange) than a traitor to humanity (Obama, Abbot).

Intelligence didn't help prevent 7/7 because they were busy setting it up! Total false flag event using patsies, nothing in the official story even adds up.

Oh dear Kimbers - did you actually read what I wrote? If so did you actually take a second to understand what I wrote before writing your response? - if you did you would have read that I was speculating on something to try to illustrate how these leaks may have contributed to actual deaths. I never once actually purported that the Nairobi attacks were a result of the leaks and I don't necessarily suspect it. Some people don't seem to be able to make the connection between the risk to life (innocent lives anywhere in the world and the lives of those in the spying industry) and the irresponsible actions of people like Snowdon. Does Snowdon really believe he is going to stop the US from spying? Is he so arrogant to think he can actually stop something so important to the security and commercial enterprise of a whole nation? At worse he'll cause a few months of embarrassment to the US and they'll carry on regardless.

I really don't buy into this issue that terrorism is somehow our fault. Its a ridiculous notion. Its like saying the woman dressed in a miniskirt was sexually abused because of the way she was dressed and its all her fault and deserves all she got - utterly ridiculous. We have the right to protect our way of life from those who would seek to harm us.

I'm not 'loving big brother' but realise that compromises have to me made in order to achieve security in what is an insecure world. I really do wish we lived in this idyllic world where peace and harmony reigns like some people think we do. The reality couldn't be further from the truth unfortunately.

Its like saying the woman dressed in a miniskirt was sexually abused because of the way she was dressed and its all her fault and deserves all she got - utterly ridiculous.

Yep, that's ridiculous.

I really don't buy into this issue that terrorism is somehow our fault. Its a ridiculous notion.

Terrorism is a very very small problem, fuel poverty is a bigger problem, more cyclist die every year than do from terrorism.

Admittedly terrorism is quite a big problem in, say Iraq, in fact it's a very big problem in Iraq. And guess who's responsible for that ?

Yep, you've got it....us !

[img] [/img]

If there was a Snowden here. No I dont mean the sexed up/Iraq. That wasnt a massive leak of assorted files.

How would we feel?

Just because its the US doesnt make it different.

If it happened here I'd want the fella flogged. Hes not bringing down an evil regime but hurting a whole countries interest no matter how good or bad the info proves.

UK soldiers sign up to serve and no matter what they think of a conflict etc they have to do their duty to the Crown.

No sympathy for Snowdens ultimate fate. None. Or shagger-Assange. As for Manning. I question his motives.

Obama got the nobel peace prize and authorizes drone strikes which regularly kill civilians including children... Cameron does the same; they both coat it in PR sugar and we swallow it obediently...

Snowden, Manning, Assange etc rather than feeding us sweeties that rot our teeth and diminish our health, feed us the less tasty but far healthier roughage of truth.

Eat yer greens kids and say thankyou for being treated responsibly, rather than buying into the junkfood dream of spin and lies.

Nobel Prizes for Snowden, Manning, Assange and all the others brave enough not to swallow the shite.

Not enough people speak in dietary metaphors.

Not enough people speak in dietary metaphors.

No shit...

Snowden, Manning, Assange etc rather than feeding us sweeties that rot our teeth and diminish our health, feed us the less tasty but far healthier roughage of truth.

Jivehoneyjive. We KNOW Obama etc do this as its open information/not hidden. Its a different argument when you release a massive tranch of information about a country. Even a thick **** would know that country will then come after you. Its unforgivable for a citizen to do it to his own country

UK soldiers sign up to serve and no matter what they think of a conflict etc they have to do their duty to the Crown.

Personally, I feel that one's own moral judgement must take precedent over all else, otherwise people simply fall back on the Nuremburg defence; [i]"Befehl ist Befehl"[/i].

What Edward(en) Snowdon has done has been for the greater good of humanity, at the expense of the US regime. A regime, let's face it, that is corrupt and morally and ethically bankrupt, and exists mainly to serve an elite few.

So yes, he's a hero. No question.

Is it really such a surprise that governments spy on each other? Im sure Germany spies on other countries as well as its own citizens, as does every nation in the world.

Snowden isnt a hero or a traitor; hes just a stupid person who found that he could steal a load of secret data and sell it to a newspaper, in some misguided notion of doing the right thing.

Again over-egging a post. Why is serving in say Afghanistan in an unwinnable war akin to the nuremberg defence? A soldier can think its a dangerous and pointless assignment without resorting to genocide/destroying all gypsies/Jews etc. Jesus.

The point is that soldiers are required to exercise independent judgement and can't just blindly follow orders "no matter what they think". [i]Jesus[/i].

UK soldiers sign up to serve and no matter what they think of a conflict etc they have to do their duty to the Crown.