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The (possibly criminal) incompetence of the SNP is a reflection on the SNP not the whole of Scotland. Demonstrably incompetent in internal governance - delivering poor outcomes for Scots in health, education and economy but yet somehow to be trusted on independence. Shysters.
The (possibly criminal) incompetence of the SNP is a reflection on the SNP not the whole of Scotland. Demonstrably incompetent in internal governance – delivering poor outcomes for Scots in health, education and economy but yet somehow to be trusted on independence. Shysters.
Best thing to do is wholeheartedly support independence then.
Indy is the only way to get rid of the SNP.
So the scots are too stupid to run their own country
By those standards surely the Scots parliament should be running England because without a shadow of doubt the incompetence in Westminster is orders of magnitude worse
The more I read your comments Brucewee the more you make SNP sound like UKIP.
UKIP got brexit and basically vanished. Single policy party
I'm not sure the parallels are a good thing.
Look at how difficult getting the uk out of eu has been, and a massive cock up. Anyone who thinks it won't be the same, or worse splitting two far more interlinked countries is deluded
and.... I'd have no problem with England being lead by a credible, honest and effective scot. We just need good leadership.
Look at how difficult getting the uk out of eu has been, and a massive cock up. Anyone who thinks it won’t be the same, or worse splitting two far more interlinked countries is deluded
Or, people who believe that sitting in a car as a lunatic drives it off a cliff are deluded.
Just get out the car, FFS. Your seatbelt might make you feel better but it's not going to save you from a 200ft plunge into the sea.
They're doing a fine job all by themselves.
and…. I’d have no problem with England being lead by a credible, honest and effective scot. We just need good leadership.
And I'd have no problem sticking with the UK if the constitutional issues were sorted out (end to FPTP, complete overhall of the HoL, written binding constitution, proper devolution of regions with veto power for national initiatives, oh, and don't forget getting back in the EU).
Those are my conditions for supporting the Union. Do you have any conditions for supporting independence or are you an unconditional British Nationalist?
They’re doing a fine job all by themselves.
As long as support for indy remains around 50% and there is no other major party supporting independence you're stuck with the SNP, I'm afraid.
Like I said, there's a one-shot solution to get rid of them.
Indy is the only way to get rid of the SNP.
The way it's carrying on, the way that the SNP breaks up will be by it's own hand. Other independence campaigners are available and others will appear. The demand for an Independent Scotland is not restricted to the existence of this particular party.
DT78 If you look at the current UK government you'll find a distinct resemblance to UKIP.
One is a hypothetical view based on not liking a predicted path but is not based on any real evidence. No one can predict the future
One is a factual view based on observation of a very similar action, that is still ongoing
Like I said the problem is terrible politicians and leaders - thats what needs resolving. I don't care about the nationality, ethnicity, gender or whatever of the leader, even thinking about scot vs english is divisive and I'm surprised people think thats ok
I think the main reason I was so surprised and disappointed about NS / SNP was not that I wanted independence but I thought she actually represented the sort of politician I was hoping we would see more off. Seems I was taken in by a scottish version of ukip...
And I think the current uk gov needs to change I am agreeing with you that it is awful, but I'm saying it needs sorting, not 'cutting your nose off to spite your face' if thats the right saying
If someone was able to prove that splitting countries up would be an improvement for all citizens (in both countries) I would support it. All I see is a massive waste of time, energy and money and an action that would increase division. Brexit seems to have polarised people and not for the better. There are so many other issues that that time, energy and money could be spent on improving the peoples lives
And I think the current uk gov needs to change I am agreeing with you that it is awful, but I’m saying it needs sorting, not ‘cutting your nose off to spite your face’ if thats the right saying
No, not just the government, the entire system needs to change.
I laid out exactly what that change should look like above. If a party came along with a single focus of resolving the constitutional issues I would support that party*
There is NO sign of any of the changes I listed happening bar Labour making some noises about the HoL which is probably at the bottom of my list in terms of importance anyway.
Again, what would make you support independence or is your support of the Union unconditional?
*Before anyone says Lib-Dems, that's not what I mean. The Lib-Dems are for getting some scraps of power and against not getting some scraps of power. They will disregard any policy for a seat at the table. I'm talking DUP levels of commitment to the constitutional issues.
proper devolution of regions with veto power for national initiatives,
That isn't devolution. As the gender bill showed it's the other way round. THe national govt has a veto when devolved govts exceed their powers.
Or, people who believe that sitting in a car as a lunatic drives it off a cliff are deluded.
Just get out the car, FFS. Your seatbelt might make you feel better but it’s not going to save you from a 200ft plunge into the sea.
Or leaping out of a frying pan and into a fire.
Although a post Brexit, post independence omnishambles all-round with a Scotland trying to rejoin the EU might just be enough to elicit another referendum south of the border which would probably result in vote to rejoin because I don't believe Scotland is any more pro-EU than the rest of the UK, they just have healthier opportunities to put two fingers up at Westminster.
maybe.... a SNP battlebus with a slogan about how much extra money the NHS would get might swing it....
That isn’t devolution.
It is in Belgium.
If someone was able to prove that splitting countries up would be an improvement for all citizens (in both countries) I would support it.
Ireland. There is your example,
I did add what I need to be convinced off to support splitting up any part of our country - it needs to be evidenced it will improve the lives of all of us.
Ireland. Isn't there the occasional bombing / shooting of people that sounds a great example
Or leaping out of a frying pan and into a fire.
Maybe.
But there are far more examples of similar sized countries to Scotland thriving through cooperation with it's neighbours than there are of UK-sized countries trying to go all North Korea and thriving.
I'll go with the examples that have been proven to work rather than hoping everything will magically sort itself out.
OK guys - I know I have been a part of it but lets not rehash the case for independence on here. too many entrenched positions and at least one poster being either deliberately provocative or profoundly and offensively ignorant
Can we just keep it to discussions around the financial stuff?
deliberately provocative or profoundly and offensively ignorant
thats exactly what I think of you on most threads TJ
The demand for an Independent Scotland is not restricted to the existence of this particular party.
But it's electoral success is due to it being the dominant one. If Alba took 20% of the indy vote we would be in hung parliament territory with a likely majority of non indy parties.
There is the possiblity (in Holyrood elections) of gaming the system with all indy supporters voting SNP for constituency List Alba. But this assumes after recent events that indy voters are willing to leave the SNP in charge and that it can be organised. Last time the SNP were urging SNP for both votes.
In any case no matter how big the majority of indy party MSPs if it was achieved while indy was getting less that 50% in opinion polls and first preferences there would be no indyref.
As for the SNP not existing after a yes vote in the indyref. I doubt it. They have the incumbency advantage. Any examples of countries becoming independent when the dominant party didn't remain in power after indy day?
it needs to be evidenced it will improve the lives of all of us.
In that case, have a look at Denmark, Finland, Norway, Slovakia, Ireland, and Croatia for examples.
They are all a similar size to Scotland and I think most if not all are currently doing better than Scotland within the UK.
Again, what would make you support independence or is your support of the Union unconditional?
Personally I'm largely agnostic. I'm not a unconditional unionist, but neither am I a supporter of independence just for the sake of it. The emotional reasons for it can get in the sea and I'm not convinced that the economic arguments being made for split from England and re-entry to the EU add up. I don't think "the political class" that we have in either countries is capable of managing such an event to the benefit of most folks. Having seen Brexit; and while I don't think for a second that just because that went so spectacularly tits-up that Indy would as well, we can now easily see how the extreme position becomes the default option. FFS even Nigel Farage in 2016 was talking about a Swiss or Norwegian style deal, and look where we ended up - Largely in a place that no one campaigned for.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/10/21/498883387/one-tiny-belgian-region-blocks-international-trade-dealNot sure that is a good advert for that system.
Ireland. There is your example,
Half* of which is the poorest region of the UK, and the other half* a 2008 case study in why Truss economics doesn't work?
A shambles of trade deals that don't make anyone happy?
A parliament that hasn't sat in years because the loyalists/republicans won't talk to each other?
None of the alternatives are necessarily an improvement, but I'd not say it's going well at the moment.
*not half
Improve scottish, welsh, english and irish lives, all of them. Not just improve scots (which I think is debatable depending on what you want to believe)
Any examples of countries becoming independent when the dominant party didn’t remain in power after indy day?
All of them, I would say.
Can you give any examples of dominant parties that remained intact after indy?
I'm sure the SNP will always be there in name, but it will be a very different beast to what we see today. At the moment Tartan Tories are rubbing shoulders with Red Flag waving socialists. That's fine while everyone is focusing on indy. The minute they start discussing policy there is no way you are even getting some of these people to sit in the same room, let alone support the same candidate.
Ireland does not include NI. Ireland is an independent state
A sweepstake on when this thread gets closed?
The minute they start discussing policy there is no way you are even getting some of these people to sit in the same room, let alone support the same candidate.
agree see the ireland example, oh alright Northern Ireland example
Not sure that is a good advert for that system.
It depends on your view, but supposedly the big advantage of FPTP is that it allows governments to 'get things done'.
I've had quite enough of UK governments being able to 'get things done' to last a lifetime. I'm not just talking about the Tories here. The seeds of my support for indy started with the invasion of Iraq.
Yeah, I'll take governments not being able to get things done for a while, thanks very much.
Anyway, CETA passed in the end and Wallonia's voice was not completely ignored. To me that is how these things should work. A region should not be steamrollered into things for 'the greater good'.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Feuobserver.com%2Fgreen-economy%2F135717
Can you give any examples of dominant parties that remained intact after indy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Congress
Latest Scottish polling.
SNP 38% (-5 since 9-13 Mar)
Lab 30% (+4)
Con 16% (+1)
Lib Dem 10% (+2)
Predicted Holyrood seats.
https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1649152771797700608
NO way the lib dems will gain 6
Stand by for the tory / labour coalition running Scotland. That will be fun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Congress
/blockquote>According to Wikipedia two former cabinet members broke off to form their own parties for the first election so not entirely intact. But yeah, the INC did remain the dominant force in Indian politics.
However, again, FPTP.
FPTP provides a massive incentive to stick together. The SNP won't have that acting as glue for their disparate parts.
Stand by for the tory / labour coalition running Scotland.
Well, at least that will mean all the problems Labour/Conservatives talk about all the time will be solved.
That'll be nice.
What kind of a party allows a leadership election to be held without telling those competing that its membership numbers are in freefall, its finances are a mess, its auditors have quit and the investigation into a “missing” £600,000 is about to turn its spotlight on to its former chief executive Peter Murrell and former treasurer Colin Beattie? Oh, and that there has been a £110,000 camper van bought by the party sitting on a driveway for two years.
A sweepstake on when this thread gets closed?
Well DT78 seems to have got the ball rolling, if we ignore the shit flinging there's still hope for it.
erm I merely quoted an insult aimed at me and returned it. So the ball was already rolling in that regard
Indy is the only way to get rid of the SNP.
Really? Faster just to stop voting for them.
Really? Faster just to stop voting for them.
Presumably unionists already aren't voting for them.
If you want indy supporters to stop voting for them then try offering something that would make the Union worth sticking with.
Let's see what Labour are talking about in their adverts...
If you want indy supporters to stop voting for them then try offering something that would make the Union worth sticking with.
Or the other parties could stop being so beligerently unionist. A smart opposition party right now would say, "Lets change our position on Indy from 'No way' to 'Let the people decide in a referendum which our party will take a neutral stance, but individuals can campaign either way'". It would completely change the face of Scottish politics. It would require strong leadership which is of course what they are also all missing.
Yet from the ~6 million population the SNP were only able to raise ~600k of a target 1 million to fund a campaign for indy ref 2. Does this point to a population hungry to revisit the question?
Presumably unionists already aren’t voting for them.
Some did. After stupidly taking Sturgeon at her word that a vote for the SNP wasn't a vote for indy.
“A vote for the SNP is not a vote for another referendum. It is a vote to have Scotland’s voice heard at Westminster.”
And again/
"Speaking on the BBC's The Sunday Show ahead of the 2021 election, she said: "Opposition politicians can't have it both ways. They can say I should have spent the last year focusing on Covid, which I've done, and then say you should have spent the last year developing the plan for independence.
“Thursday is not an independence referendum, it's not asking people to vote yes or no. When we ask people to make that choice, just as we did in 2014, we will put forward a detailed perspective.”"
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/nicola-sturgeons-mandate-claim-flies-27346998
“Lets change our position on Indy from ‘No way’ to ‘Let the people decide in a referendum which our party will take a neutral stance, but individuals can campaign either way'”.
Because a neutral position on indy is not the party position of the unionist parties. Leaving aside tactical voting issues relating to my constituency I would only vote for a pro union party. If I wanted a pro indy party I would vote SNP or Green.
As indy is the number 1 issue in Scottish politics it is not practical for parties not to have a view.
Some did. After stupidly taking Sturgeon at her word that a vote for the SNP wasn’t a vote for indy.
Well, is Scotland independent? So she wasn't lying (about that).
For the upcoming election she was keen on saying a vote for the SNP would be a vote for independence. There's a lot you can accuse her of lying about but I think she's been pretty clear about when a vote for the SNP is a vote directly for independence and when it isn't.
And honestly, the best link you can come up with is the Daily Express? I would be embarrassed posting links like that but when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel needs must, I guess.
Does this point to a population hungry to revisit the question?
Yeah, no appetite whatsoever. It's a mystery why unionists are so terrified of having another one.
If the labour party continues with independence no never and SNP baaad then they will only ever be fighting with the lib dems and tories for the 50% that is the unionist vote
Thus they will forever remain pretty irrelevant in Scots politics and will never be the largest party again.
Yeah, no appetite whatsoever
What then? Just not prepared to pay for it?
Indy is the only way to get rid of the SNP.
Who has been drinking the same Kool-Aid as Lord Robertson?
"Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead." - Lord Robertson
Who has been drinking the same Kool-Aid as Lord Robertson?
Congratulations on continuing your 100% record of completely missing the point and wading into the middle of conversations on Scottish Independence that you have no idea about.
Edit: OK, I've started drinking and if the usual suspects are going to start doing their usual thing it's time for me to step out, I reckon.
Scottish Independence that you have no idea about.
As opposed to you who has the same level of expertise as Lord Robertson?
Edit: OK, I’ve started drinking and if the usual suspects are going to start doing their usual thing it’s time for me to step out, I reckon.
You can only drink and post at the same time if everyone agrees with you? Probably very wise.👍
“Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead.” – Lord Robertson
There is also the argument that devolution has forced the SNP to stop being a single issue protest group and exposing to the world their incompetence in government once tasked with doing more than one thing at once, i.e. agitating and failing at delivering on their populist promises.
The SNP's self-immolation has been the most entertaining thing in the news for many many years. I'm eagerly looking forward to the next episode whatever it is! Bankruptcy? Sturgeon's arrest? Bring it on!
Edit: OK, I’ve started drinking and if the usual suspects are going to start doing their usual thing it’s time for me to step out, I reckon.
A while past that time IMO.
. I’m eagerly looking forward to the next episode whatever it is! Bankruptcy? Sturgeon’s arrest? Bring it on!
Can we have Sturgeon's arrest then bankruptcy?
What kind of a party allows a leadership election to be held without telling those competing that its membership numbers are in freefall, its finances are a mess, its auditors have quit and the investigation into a “missing” £600,000 is about to turn its spotlight on to its former chief executive Peter Murrell and former treasurer Colin Beattie? Oh, and that there has been a £110,000 camper van bought by the party sitting on a driveway for two years.
A party that had a dictatorship and that is performing poorly on health, drugs, policing and crime, and education, delivery of ferries...but where the electorate turn a blind eye because there's only one policy that's front and centre of the political debate?
I can't see Sturgeon getting arrested, I think she's savvy enough that there'll be enough distance between her whatever shenanigans have gone on. Murrell and Beattie will take the hit...and I guess its still unclear where that sits on the scale of 'a bit dodgy' to an illegal act where they could get locked up.
Given the horror show of the Tories, the car crash of the current SNP soap opera, and the impasse in Stormont, perhaps we all need to move to Wales...that parliament seems to run ok! I feel sorry for Yousef, he seems an OK guy that had just been handed one of the worst hospital passes of all time!
If the labour party continues with independence no never and SNP baaad then they will only ever be fighting with the lib dems and tories for the 50% that is the unionist vote
Maybe or maybe they were just hoping the idea of independance might eventually die out like a damp squib. The longer it goes on for the more likely that is to happen. The internal issues within the SNP will not help promote it as many people do see the SNP and independance as linked. Peak momentum was at the last referendum and they failed to get enough support. Even something as cataclysmic as Brexit has really shifted the dial much.
Without a strong SNP and a more dominant set of opposition parties independance will take hit. The next elections will be key, if the SNP maintains current levels of support I can see the independance argument rumbling on, if they are reduced I can see it moving more to the back burner, unfortunately it wont go away.
The momentum for independence is there. Its far more popular among younger people so voting support will rise, Brexit did create a boost for independence.
I expect the SNP to lose a few maybe a dozen seats at the next holyrood elections. they will still be the biggest party and I expect a tory / labour coalition to keep them out which will destroy labour
the independence movement is far bigger than the SNP
I expect the SNP to lose a few maybe a dozen seats at the next holyrood elections. they will still be the biggest party
I think this is right, however while they may be the biggest party, one can already see the cracks appearing, so I wouldn't be surprised if it can't hold itself together. Yousef was the continuity candidate, and it turns out that the project he's continuing is rotten at the top. He beat Forbes by only a slim margin, and I wonder if the many votes for her represent a collective unhappiness with Sturgeon, Murrell et al. A big loss of seats at an election is always the excuse for a blood bath in any political party.
Whatever happened, the money they raised has gone, and I can't see another campaign to raise more money by them is going to be massively successful, this £600,000 was meant to be a million, and the surprise win of Johnson pretty much put the last nail in the coffin of an Indy vote in the near future, and I can't see Labour being mad keen either especially if they take seats at SNP's expense.
a £110,000 camper van
£91,000, and it is an older model. But 110,000 sounds so much better.
£91,000, and it is an older model. But 110,000 sounds so much better
Every single news report seems to have it as £110,000. Even The National, but whatever, £91 or £110 isn’t really much of a difference given the context
one can already see the cracks appearing, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it can’t hold itself together.
I would be surprised. There has already been one attempt to split the party which has been an utter failure with almost no electoral support all of the elected representatives that joined are going to lose their seats ( Alba)
the cracks are obvious and have been there for a long time but we will see. Maybe you are right but I doubt it.
The previous breakaway was led by Salmond who was already discredited and had lost support within the party. I think there was momentum for independance but it peaked in 2014 and has plateaued since then in real terms. I think with the SNP implosion we will start to see a waning of enthusiasm for independance.
The trouble with younger voters is they get older and tend to become more conservative so unless more older people die than young people become eligible to vote the electorate gradually becomes more conservative. Thats how the Tories cling on. Unless of course Scotland has a population that is becoming younger due to dire health care and life expectancy, actually you could be right given the track record of the SNP on addressing health and life expectancy issues.
Unless of course Scotland has a population that is becoming younger due to dire health care and life expectancy,
Unlike the shining beacon that is the NHS in E&W? Give it a rest.
Well life expectancy in England is around 2.5 years longer than Scotland and England has the best stats for the UK.
Anyway I wasn't comparing Scotland to England, merely commenting on the failure of the SNP to get a grip on one the of the key dedpite it being a devolved issue. The SNP havent exactly been a shining example of what an independent Scotland could look like, failed to deliver and blamed others.
Unlike the shining beacon that is the NHS in E&W?
Pure whataboutery, give it a rest (health care in Wales is also managed by the Welsh and is generally worse than England).
Edit: ONS life expectancy data.
Its pure whataboutery to mention Scots NHS as you have given that the Scots Government have no budget room to do a lot and given the loss of EU nurses from Brexit plus the absurd ridiculously expensive PFI hospitals we are stuck with - guess what - pre SNP taking power
its still better than England tho and admin costs are half. Its not great by any manner of means but the Scots government do not really have a lot of power to do owt - they have done what they can in getting rid of the fake internal market and its associated costs
They have for example removed parking changes where they can, we get free prescriptions, social care is government supported to a far greater degree and staff are paid better than in England.
Independence will live or die by their campaigns, and how they sell it, simple as that, personally it's all about the level of risk that comes with either staying put, or going alone, i still haven't seen any real proof of independence being a benefit, or it being a negative impact for Scots, that argument hasn't even really started yet, bar for those who are already set in stone on how they'll vote.
First things first though, the SNP need to sort out their internal issues, and then the Scottish Government need to work out how to get back on track, i see a lot of internal bickering now with the SNP, and the SNP and Greens, this whole finance issue has opened up those wounds as well, allowing them to bicker even more.
Yet from the ~6 million population the SNP were only able to raise ~600k of a target 1 million to fund a campaign for indy ref 2. Does this point to a population hungry to revisit the question?
And when the Tories needed donations they pumped their Russian Pals, are you saying that's what the SNP should've done?
Well life expectancy in England is around 2.5 years longer than Scotland and England has the best stats for the UK.
it’s interesting that we still use life expectancy as a measure of success. Controversial opinion - but is living to slightly longer into your 80s, with a very poor quality of life actually better?
are you saying that’s what the SNP should’ve done?
no, where did you get that from? the point is they didn't manage to meet their own target to raise funds for the next Indy ref - suggesting that it's perhaps not on the top of most folks to do list. Secondly after this, the chances of the SNP raising money again is basically nil now isn't it? what will their campaign slogan be. "We promise not to buy a camper van this time"?
I think it is fair to criticise the SNP for missing health targets that they set themselves, of which there are quite a few, including A&E waiting times, delays over discharges, cancer treatment targets, drugs deaths, and waiting lists for child mental health services. They've been hampered with a lack of budgets; as have the the rest of the NHS, but these are things that they said they'd fix, and haven't.
it’s interesting that we still use life expectancy as a measure of success. Controversial opinion – but is living to slightly longer into your 80s, with a very poor quality of life actually better?
I don’t thing you understand what ‘life expectancy’ is a measure of.
no, where did you get that from? the point is they didn’t manage to meet their own target to raise funds for the next Indy ref – suggesting that it’s perhaps not on the top of most folks to do list.
Is that why the Tories only seek donations from foreigners who they're able to 'offer' something to, rather than Joe Public who they're just outta shaft?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1574370/Russian-oligarchs-linked-conservative-party-tory-donor-evg
"Mrs Chernukhim reportedly donates enough to the Tories to qualify for membership of a group of elite donors who meet monthly with Mr Johnson and chancellor Rishi Sunak."
On the flip side, it appears if you want to speak to high up SNP, all you need to do is find out what layby/campsite they're going to be parked on 🙂
Not much point looking for the campervan anywhere other than the driveway it's been on since January 2021
On the flip side, it appears if you want to speak to high up SNP, all you need to do is find out what layby/campsite they’re going to be parked on 🙂
I thought that was the SSP modus operandi?
And when the Tories needed donations they pumped their Russian Pals, are you saying that’s what the SNP should’ve done?
Well they might have to if they can't get the half the population of Scotland that purportedly support independence to cough up 33.3p each to fund a campaign for another referendum. 🤣
Rather sad, in a thread discussing the state of the SNPO finances, large chunks of it are about the Conservative party.
Rather than comparing the SNP to any other party, what are the implications for the SNP and the current crisis that they are in? What impact will it have any the support for independence?
At the moment all I see are those who are saying that the issues in Scotland are caused by the UK Government. Fine, but how does that cause the SNP to fail hugely in its internal governance. Or is that the fault of the UK Government? The lack of auditors is going to hit SNP MPs soon and staff employed by them as two thirds of the income is short money and paid to the SNP if they have audited accounts. No audited accounts, no money - and only the SNP have themselves to blame.
And how do the SNP climb out of the hole that they have created for themselves?
The only thing that we can deal with just now is to say that the SNP internal governance needs to be completely rebuilt as does their internal democracy. Anything else would be conjecture and speculation about what are currently hypothetical situations.
Meantime I have noticed over my sixteen years or so on STW that thread titles are not generally proscriptive of what can be discussed on a thread