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so many asparaguses and suggestions flying around
Errmmmmm 🙂
Errmmmmm 🙂
as it was repeated later in the post I assumed it was a deliberate Malapropism
wonder who the whistle blower is / was
agree this has put a big smear on NS / SNP who as a southern I often said we could do with someone like that our side of the border....resigning suddenly claiming its the right time, and then the investigations start shows she is the same as Boris and Co. whether charges / fines are brought or not. no smoke without fire etc...
and as for independence, most seem to believe the financial cost of brexit has been huge and a disaster. scoexit is going to be to be any better? think of the logistics of it just for a minute and what will need to be done to make it possible to be a truly separate country. ideology aside the cost is going to be huge, its going to set us (all) back decades, and things aren't exactly great for the economy at the moment
(I don’t get the motorhome thing at all- like, who gains from that? Was it just being kept quiet because it was embarassing? Or being left to see if it could be “forgotten” and then used? Usually you just look for who gained but nobody really seems to have… except the motorhome seller)
My guess its the embarrassment. while its sitting there they can pretend its still got a use. Sell it and make a huge loss as would happen then you have to explain the loss. while you still own it you can pretend its an asset
But as you say its just weird.
scoexit is going to be to be any better?
Yes because there are two huge advantages to offset the disadvantages
1) Scotland can have full control of its budget, spending, borrowing etc as well as economic policies to suit the country
2) rejoining the EU will be a huge boost
wonder who the whistle blower is / was
I thought the whistleblower was just loads of people going, 'Hey, what did you do with that money I gave you?!'
Anyway, there's an Indy thread. As mentioned earlier in this one, this about the SNP and not the whole Yes movement/discussion (though it would be naïve to suggest the two are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">completely</span> discrete).
One of the criticisms aimed at the current SNP leadership is that they have been too controlling, appointments to the NEC, cronyism etc all playing a part. This issue around the finances seems to be a symptom of that, or perhaps it's the other way round and the money issues have caused the controlling behaviours?
tj similar ideological things were said about brexit. as you've seen politicians all seem to be cut from the same cloth irrespective of nationality.
rejoin eu is not a guarantee in fact post independence economic turmoil may in fact mean you can't
it'll be a massive massive cockup. just like brexit. it'll just make both countries shitter, for decades.
There are numerous groups / individuals who would have had the wish to see Sturgeon and / or the SNP in trouble.
1) disaffected SNP members/ ex members / ex senior people whose career has been ended
2) unionist politicians
3) media folk
My guess would have been multiple complaints from all directions but thats only a guess
DT - your opinion. Mine differs. rUK would be damaged by the loss of scotlands exports and subsidies. iScotland will be improved by not being dragged down an isolationist right wing road by remaining in the UK and being able to make policy suited to Scotland
anyway - this is not the thread for that
Honestly, I think it's a fair complaint to make. They said the money was specifically for IndyRef2 but it doesn't seem to have been spent on that. Both SNP supporters and opponents had a right to complain.
It's a level of holding politicians to account we're not generally used to but I'd like it to become the norm.
One for the Nicola Sturgeon fans outwith Scotland; on what is your opinion based? For instance, were you even that much aware of her pre-Covid?
To scotroutes
Yes (in Oxfordshire but I’m scottish), small letter intentional as I’d rather be European.
Bitterly disappointed, always looked at english politics and wondered about which self serving, corrupt, lying shower of shit I wouldn’t vote for (*non voter except to stay in Europe), and wished (though I am mixed about independence, so I’m not sure I would have voted for them if I could), that we also had a party that appeared to be better run, more professional, more for and of the people, a less self serving, corrupt and lying shower of shit. I’m now feeling that the shit is equally deep everywhere.
Power corrupts and …. You know.
I’m now feeling that the shit is equally deep everywhere.
Interesting.
There does seem to be a feeling that this makes the SNP every bit as bad as the Tories. As I said earlier, I'm struggling to see this as even being on the same planet as the blatant corruption the Tories are actively engaged in.
Is it because the SNP was somehow held up as being 'the right way' to be a political party and so this fall from grace is being taken way harder than if it had been, for example, Labour wrongdoing?
Or is it the wall to wall coverage it's getting that is making it seem like the crime of the century?
A bit of A and a bit of B IMO
One for the Nicola Sturgeon fans outwith Scotland; on what is your opinion based? For instance, were you even that much aware of her pre-Covid?
From my perspective. She gets generally pretty positive coverage from papers south of the border, even from the more pro-unionist papers there's a grudging admiration/respect for a politician who seem(ed) to have it all; common touch, good control over her party's messaging , strong sense of purpose, and teflon-a-like ability to swerve most controversy and good-ish press especially in comparison to MPs and party leaders down here. Covid mostly just reinforced that
That seems to be slowly washing away right now, it might turn into a flood if there's nothing much else happening.
NS always came across (to me anyway) as credible, focused on doing the best for her voters and above all honest, compare that to Boris and friends clowning about and doing their best to line their own pockets. There seems to be very few politicians anywhere that you look to as effective and genuine leaders. Maybe the guy heading up the Welsh, he always seems genuine, though I’m sure someone will come along and dish some dirt I don’t know about!
As for independence, I’ll just shake my head at ideological not pragmatic or logical viewpoints. If only we had a recent example of something similar and could study the outcome. The main problem is plain bad leaders who aren’t in it for the people,
I have always found the SNP / Sturgeon control freakery and over centralisation offputting. It predates Sturgeon but for sure she increased it
Honestly, I think it’s a fair complaint to make. They said the money was specifically for IndyRef2 but it doesn’t seem to have been spent on that. Both SNP supporters and opponents had a right to complain.
As someone who donated as long as it's spent on something connected to independence I'm not picky on what exactly it's spent on.
NS always came across (to me anyway) as credible, focused on doing the best for her voters and above all honest, compare that to Boris and friends clowning about and doing their best to line their own pockets.
Maybe the difference is how this issue is been blown out of all proportion vs Johnson & Co's financials - why would that be?
AKA £600,000 vs £40,000,000,000*
* - estimated to have been lost, wasted, stolen in just the last year at UK level due to Tory incompetence & corruption
As someone who donated as long as it’s spent on something connected to independence I’m not picky on what exactly it’s spent on.
Yeah, but thinking about it from the point of view of a Green or Alba supporter, I'd be annoyed if I donated for a specific campaign and that money ended up being used to increase the vote share of a rival party, especially if it was at the expense of votes for my party.
Like I said earlier, independence campaigning really should be separated from governing, imo. The SNP should be carrying out the decisions of another group that is solely focused on independence instead of the SNP being the primary drivers of the independence campaign as well as the party of government.
Maybe the difference is how this issue is been blown out of all proportion vs Johnson & Co’s financials – why would that be?
AKA £600,000 vs £40,000,000,000*
* – estimated to have been lost, wasted, stolen in just the last year at UK level due to Tory incompetence & corruption
Actually, I think the general non-politico Scottish voter is more apathetic than that because:
1. It was party money not tax payers money.
2. It was donated by people to a political cause. That might not have been wisely spent, but so far nobody has actually pointed out where its been used for the personal gain of any individual.
3. If you are "pro-SNP" then to some extent the missing money has probably been used to further your cause.
4. If you are "anti-Indy" then the wasting of money that should have been spent on the cause you don't want is surely good news.
Yeah, but thinking about it from the point of view of a Green or Alba supporter, I’d be annoyed if I donated for a specific campaign and that money ended up being used to increase the vote share of a rival party, especially if it was at the expense of votes for my party.
I never donated, was the fundraising campaign clear that the money was going to the SNP('s Indy campaign)? I assume so. I assume if you were an Alba or Green supporter and wanted to give money to Indy you would have given it to your own party or a genuinely independent fund.
Does anyone know if restricted funds are similar for political parties to charities? As a charity trustee, restricted funds are a PITA, you can be sitting on lots of cash you can't spend on things your charity wants to do, and sometimes struggling to raise more funds because you have so much.
AKA £600,000 vs £40,000,000,000*
You can't be slightly honest.
For me the key thing is: is this cockup, coverup and hubris or personal enrichement? the former is a whole different issue morally from the latter
We know the tories stuff was all about personal enrichment. As far as i am aware there is no suggestion of personal enrichment here.
But we will see
You can’t be slightly honest.
One was spent on something else, but still related and the other?
I never donated, was the fundraising campaign clear that the money was going to the SNP(‘s Indy campaign)?
The whole story is here. It was quite clear donations were to an indy referendum campaign, not to the SNP Party.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-great-indyref-swindle/
For me the key thing is: is this cockup, coverup and hubris or personal enrichement?
It's obviously coverup and hubris, potentially with a side order of unreasonable benefits in kind (the motorhome), but that may be open to debate/further evidence emerging.
Not to mention incompetence as well.
I do like the distraction techniques used to compare the SNP with the 'English' establishment to show that while the SNP may be an utter shambles in keeping track of their finances they are 'better' than the 'others'.
The SNP has managed to drag itself into a hole with the way that it has run the party. The finances are just a reflection of the control that the party leadership used to ensure that they got their way. When an elected party treasurer resigns because he can't get at the books, then that really should have been a red flag. The fact that he is replaced by the guy that had been the treasurer before is another significant red flag.
The loss of the auditors is another red flag; being unable to find a suitable replacement is another. Not telling the prospective party leaders until after they had been selected must be another.
I have no idea if any fraud has been committed, but the resources the police (and other agencies) have spent on the case, implies that they suspect something and know what they are after.
Equally I suspect that if any charges are brought they will be against a very small number of people who have kept the rest of the SNP in the dark. This reflects poorly on the rest of the SNP who have failed to challenge their own leadership. To 'blame' the mainstream media that they have 'failed' to do their job. The mainstream media have spent the last 15 years being attacked by the cybernats for anything said against the SNP or the Independence movement. Remember the mass protests against he BBC during the Independence campaign? At some point the the media give up reporting and chasing as the abuse gets too much.
And finally this will have an impact on the Independence campaign. The SNP have a lot of time (and money?) linking the SNP and Independence. While the SNP was not in power it could do that, after that trying to do two jobs well proved far beyond their ability. Instead they focused on the independence side, neglecting to do the main job of running the country. The Independence campaign needs to be broad campaign covering all parts of the political spectrum, not just a left wing vision.
Wings is not a decent source. they guy has huge axes to grind and supports all sorts of weird conspiracy theories. hes is just a clickbait loon.
See what the Herald or Scotsman has to say - the Herald being reasonably objective with a wee hint of support. The Scotsman being anti SNP. the national if you want to see a pretty uncritical of the SNP paper
I do like the distraction techniques used to compare the SNP with the ‘English’ establishment to show that while the SNP may be an utter shambles in keeping track of their finances they are ‘better’ than the ‘others’.
I don't think it's a tactic, it's more just a response to the people on here who are saying, 'You see, Holyrood is just as bad as Westminster!!'
Yeah, I think it's got quite a long way to go before they're siphoning £69 billion off to themselves and their mates.
Ideally I'd like to take this case on it's own merits and not have to do any comparisons, but there is one side who keep trying to compare it to what goes on at Westminster and I don't think it's the SNP/Indy supporters.
To ‘blame’ the mainstream media that they have ‘failed’ to do their job. The mainstream media have spent the last 15 years being attacked by the cybernats for anything said against the SNP or the Independence movement.
Yeah, the entire Scottish mainstream press is clearly terrified of upsetting indy supporters. Just look at how little coverage is being given to this case.
One of the criticisms aimed at the current SNP leadership is that they have been too controlling, appointments to the NEC, cronyism etc all playing a part. This issue around the finances seems to be a symptom of that, or perhaps it’s the other way round and the money issues have caused the controlling behaviours?
This has always been my gripe with the SNP, cronyism and nepotism, saw it often back in the day within an area that the SNP took control over from the tories, but then slowly they would push out those who had worked hard to get them in power, and parachute in the family and friends.
I know it happens in all parties, but this was closer just through personal experience and seeing the treatment of a couple of friends.
The whole story is here. It was quite clear donations were to an indy referendum campaign, not to the SNP Party.
I clicked the link but it seemed I'd have to go hunting, and my life is too short for that. Does someone have screenshots of what it said at the time? I know its clear that it was for "an" indy ref campaign, but I'm not sure if it was for the SNP's Indy Ref Campaign, or if it was clear that that SNP were managing the funds etc. I'm not going to do the police's job here - but I'm trying to understand how outraged I should be that a fund I didn't donate to, was potentially used for activities that might have been outside the original remit.
My inclination is that the audit regime for corporate bodies in the UK is pretty poor.
Wings is not a decent source. they guy has huge axes to grind and supports all sorts of weird conspiracy theories. hes is just a clickbait loon.
I agree that the guy can be a prick, but do you deny anything in that linked article is fact? All the sources are linked/shown.
Instead they focused on the independence side
With all due respect, the SNP under Nicola Sturgeon has done nothing to further independence. That's why so many have left the party and why some are asking for their money back. It has suited her well to moan about Westminster as it ensures more seats. Progressing to independence would, as pointed out on page 1 of this thread, see the SNP losing power.
Just had a quick glance - clear cherry picking, taking out of context. 2+2 = 10 etc to me. didn't bother with the detail beyond that.
Given thats his MO along with complete conspiracy nonsense I don't see it as worth my time.
No one is contesting that the money was raised for one purpose and instead went into general funding
the guy has made a lot off slagging the SNP - I'd not trust him anymore than I would the Express
do you deny anything in that linked article is fact?
That's a no then?
One thing popped out straight away. that the money from the campaign was used to pay back a loan / donation. The money was not ringfenced as he says - so how can he say that the one paid back the other. Thats having it both ways. Either it was ringfenced or it wasn't. It was either separately accounted for or it wasn't.
Once you see a glaring error like that where he is clearly drawing conclusions not supported by the evidence and/or where he is argueing both sides to the middle then it pretty much invalidates anything he says. IMO of course
and instead went into general funding
that blog suggests that it was simply used to pay back a half million loan when the SNP were otherwise short of funds.
Thats having it both ways.
I'm not with you @tj, I read it as suggesting that a loan was called in and the SNP used the only money they had access to to pay it off. How d'you read it?
To ‘blame’ the mainstream media that they have ‘failed’ to do their job. The mainstream media have spent the last 15 years being attacked by the cybernats for anything said against the SNP or the Independence movement. Remember the mass protests against he BBC during the Independence campaign? At some point the the media give up reporting and chasing as the abuse gets too much.
That's a bit of biased view. During the indyref I watched BBC Scotland cover a yes/no question on a party basis ie. with 3 unionist representative and 2 pro independence representatives. Each person being given equal time which resulted in much more time being allotted to the unionist view. I saw basic inaccuracies and some gross misrepresentation which affected members of my family. In my opinion BBC Scotland failed badly in its coverage of the referendum. I think the protests outside the BBC were misguided . I don't condone threats against anyone at all. I note that you condemn abuse from cybernats but make no mention of online abuse from unionists
But thats wanting it both ways!
The money went into general funds and the loan was paid back out of general funds. The money was not ringfenced. Its equally true to say the money was spent on other costs the SNP had. salaries, rent etc etc.
If the money had been ringfenced in a separate account and then the loan paid back out of the account then he would be right. But it wasn't. It was paid into general funds so was used for general spending which included paying back the loan
Its clear the SNP spent the money yes - but to say it was directly used to pay back the loan is not a conclusion that can be drawn from the facts. Was the loan payback the only money spent by the SNP during that period?
BruceWee
Full Member
I don’t think it’s a tactic, it’s more just a response to the people on here who are saying, ‘You see, Holyrood is just as bad as Westminster!!’
You were the first one in the thread to explicitly draw the parallels and have contributed to do so
Hmm, not sure I would say getting done for fraud for saying ‘donate for the 2nd IndyRef’ instead of ‘donate for the independence campaign’ really compares to the billions in fraud the Tories are responsible for
TBF I only steal from large faceless organisations. 😉
You were the first one in the thread to explicitly draw the parallels and have contributed to do so
Feel free to quote where I said it first and I'll show you what I was responding to.
Edit: Nevermind, I found it. Here it is including what I was responding to.
As an aside, I am slightly enjoying seeing the egg on the faces of all those nationalists who have constantly ripped into boris and co over the past few years, when it transpires that our lot are just as bad😂
Hmm, not sure I would say getting done for fraud for saying ‘donate for the 2nd IndyRef’ instead of ‘donate for the independence campaign’ really compares to the billions in fraud the Tories are responsible for.
The second quote was yours from earlier in the thread 👍
Edit : re-reading that's not on you. Apologies
Cool, thanks 🙂
but to say it was directly used to pay back the loan is not a conclusion that can be drawn from the facts.
Well you can, I agree it's far fetched, but it's as good a theory as any right now The loan shows up as unpaid in one set of accts and doesn't appear in the next, it's clearly been settled either way. Using this money? Written of by the loaner? who knows, but that the SNP have spent money that they shouldn't have, and have tried to cover that up is becoming clearer. I guess we'll know in the fullness
BTW has everyone else started to hear the rumours that the police are to arrest Sturgeon next?
* – estimated to have been lost, wasted, stolen in just the last year at UK level due to Tory incompetence & corruption
Okay, so what about other money lost, wasted or stolen at the Scottish level due to SNP incompetence. How are the ferries they are having built getting along?
Sure the tories are better at being corrupt and have more money to reallocate to themselves but if your defence is not as bad as Johnson and co then somethings gone wrong.
Sure the tories are better at being corrupt and have more money to reallocate to themselves but if your defence is not as bad as Johnson and co then somethings gone wrong.
Again, not a defense. It's a response to people who say this proves Holyrood is just as bad as Westminster.
It should be judged on it's own merits.
Arresting Sturgeon is surely the obvious step once you've had a chance to chat to the treasurer and the CEO (who also just happens to be her husband)? I'm sure she can't plead complete ignorance. Well, she can. Maybe she's not visited the in-laws in the past couple of years? Otherwise you'd think "oh, nice motorhome" might have cropped up in conversation.
I’m sure she can’t plead complete ignorance.
Did she not use that defence when it came to light that her husband had lent her party over £100,000?
Asked when she first became aware of the loan, the first minister said she “can’t recall”. At a press conference in Edinburgh she said: “My husband is an individual and he will take decisions about what he does with resources that belong to him.”
Quote from the Courier, I don't know enough about Scottish media to know their biases, but it's just reportage on the face of it
There are lots of couples on STW who operate their accounts separately from their partners, so it's certainly possible that she didn't know. However, given the loan was to the party of she is the leader, it seems barely credible that it wasn't discussed. However, we're in danger of blundering into the case being investigated and need, therefore, to be a but circumspect regarding that topic.
Pretty much what Scotroutes says. Mrs TJ and I had separate finances. I had no access to her bank statements nor did I care what she spent her money on
However if she spent a large sum I would be very surprised if she did not mention it.
Trust is a two way process.
Oh sure, my wife recently spent a couple of hundred on a hand made pair of boots that she hadn’t said a word about, who cares? She doesn’t worry about the constant steam of boxes from CRC but if she spent hundred grand on something I like to think she’d at least tell me..?
A mate of mine once bought a house without telling his missus.
Had he not then told her they were moving into this new house she might never have known. He's just someone who believes strongly that it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.
Have we not all bought £100k camper vans without mentioning it to our spouse? Easy done, We all live busy lives.
The camper van was not hidden. The £100 000 loan from Murrel to the party is what Sturgeon says she was not sure when she first knew of it
Quite. My finances wouldn't allow it, but for Mr and Mrs Murrell maybe it's just a splash in the ocean. Which is then a bit embarrassing if you're projecting yourself as "one of the people".
Arresting Sturgeon is surely the obvious step once you’ve had a chance to chat to the treasurer and the CEO (who also just happens to be her husband)?
Only if they have reasonable suspicion she has been involved in a crime. Presumably since they've made two arrests so far they have a reason to suspect there has actually been a crime. Either or both of those interviews may have increased or decreased that suspicion. BUT then they need to believe that she was involved in the crime. Its not at all obvious to me that a wife is usually implicit in the crimes of her husband (if there were any), but moreso as they seem to have a slightly "odd" relationship. So I expect they will only arrest her if they already know she's involved. I'd suggest there will be at least a couple of other people in party HQ in the firing line before she is.
I’m sure she can’t plead complete ignorance. Well, she can. Maybe she’s not visited the in-laws in the past couple of years? Otherwise you’d think “oh, nice motorhome” might have cropped up in conversation.
A political party acquiring a motorhome for the reason stated in the particular circumstances doesn't seem like a crime to me. It does seem very odd to me that they would chose to buy rather than lease or rent, and stupid that they would spend quite as much on one - but those are not crimes. I've not seen any suggestion that it was ever used. Its seems unlikely that none of the neighbours have gossiped to the press and nobody had said they saw them using it so it seems likely that the press reports that it was kept at his mother's house since it was bought are quite literal. Keeping company property at the CEO's mother's house is not a crime. If there's no secure storage for it at party HQ and the finances were in as bad shape as reports suggest then not paying a storage fee might be the one sensible financial decision he made.
Er. selling it would be the sensible financial decision, especially if its a liability and hasn't actually been used
Quite amusing reading some of the obviously pro SNP poster looking to defend or play down some dodgy goings on - whether they are criminal or just "stupid" actions will be the outcome of the investigation
Either is pretty damning, if they can't sort their own parties finances and possibly have been hiding stuff, would you trust them to run the country effectively? I wouldn't. Terrible own goal. I did say to the missus there was something up when NS just resigned. I joked, that it would have been some sort of covid party gate breach at the time....
Either is pretty damning, if they can’t sort their own parties finances and possibly have been hiding stuff, would you trust them to run the country effectively? I wouldn’t.
Once again, pretty sure the plan is not for Scotland to be a single-party state post-independence.
Er. selling it would be the sensible financial decision, especially if its a liability and hasn’t actually been used
My guess is that by selling it after not using it that appears as a loss on the balance sheet. Keeping it and pretending it will be used sometime it remains an asset
for sure its awfu weird tho
The point I was making was that the media are making this the main news in Scotland because of the way that the SNP had 'attacked' them. This is nothing about the way the media handled the independence campaign.
The attacks came from the media first! Scots media has been shown to be biassed against the SNP. When there is clear evidence of bias do you ignore it or call it out?
The media tends to be against any party in power. Especially parties that have been in power for an extensive time period. See also the media against the Conservative party in the UK Parliament. If we expect the media to keep the ruling party 'honest', then it will always appear to be anti the ruling party.
In any case calling out the SNP for it's inept management of its finances is not anti-SNP. It is what is expected.
Of course - but the scottish media are proven to be biased against independence and the SNP.
The two things can co exist
Either is pretty damning, if they can’t sort their own parties finances and possibly have been hiding stuff, would you trust them to run the country effectively? I wouldn’t.
Once again, pretty sure the plan is not for Scotland to be a single-party state post-independence.
@brucewee but the SNP are the party in government now and controlling Scotlands finances now, whether we are independent at this point is immaterial. This is just a gift to the unionists, look - ferry!
@sadmadalan
The media have generally been hostile to all the independence supporting parties and organisations for many years as have many other "institutions" in Scotland.
As they have a vested interest in stirring up shi-hite to sell more toilet paper.
but the SNP are the party in government now and controlling Scotlands finances now, whether we are independent at this point is immaterial. This is just a gift to the unionists, look – ferry!
That's not the argument though. The Unionist argument is this issue 'proves' Scotland can't be independent because it would just mess things up.
The other Unionist argument is that independence would mean SNP forever. As I said earlier, I doubt the SNP would even make it as far as the first election.
If the issue is the SNP then just start supporting independence. That'll take care of the SNP problem once and for all.
Quite an interesting article in the Guardian about this. The transition from protest movement with some political representation to political power was so rapid that the internal party processes and governance were not suitable for the change and led to the situation we have now. rings trueish to me
Still can't like posts so Tja +1.
internal party processes and governance were not suitable for the change
The ring fenced funds issue was quite simple. It wasn't SNP money so should never have been in an SNP bank account. If it had been paid into a seperate Indy Campaign account none of these arrests would have happened as long as the cash was left where it was.
Still can’t like posts so Tja +1.
Click the grey ST logo next to username - then by the power of hamsters it turns gold! 🙂
Only for Full Members though?
See also the media against the Conservative party in the UK Parliament
Pretty sure you mean the non-MSM with the exception of The Guardian, who just try and report facts in their newspaper.
The mental gymnastics to hold the belief that the same people who couldn't competently manage a transition in a political party over a decade have carefully thought through the practical implications of independence are astounding.
I'm in between a print membership and a digital one and so expect the ability to like things will resume in a few weeks
.
The mental gymnastics to hold the belief that the same people who couldn’t competently manage a transition in a political party over a decade have carefully thought through the practical implications of independence are astounding.
If there wasn't an election between a vote for independence and actually declaring independence I'd be very surprised. The Tories had to have two before they managed to leave the EU.
I'll up my bid from earlier and say that I don't reckon the SNP would even make it as far as indy being declared before the party exploded.
Unless you are talking about Scots in general and not the SNP?
The mental gymnastics to hold the belief that the same people who couldn’t competently manage a transition in a political party over a decade have carefully thought through the practical implications of independence are astounding.
so we are back to " to stupid to run our own country, Best to let the smart folk down south do it"