You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
How much are you prepared to pay/sacrifice for Indyref2 and loss of EU subsidies etc????
1 x HSS
Confused by the question 😳
How nuch are you prepared to pay for loss of EU membership and a second Indy Ref ?
First thing we are all getting by 2019 and it's beneficial. Second will never happen with approval of Westminster to make it legally binding again, ever.
SNP & Brexit
I'd happily forego one for the sake of losing the other.
First thing we are all getting by 2019 and it's beneficial. Second will never happen with approval of Westminster to make it legally binding again, ever.
I've mentioned before that it's a tad unfair that UK can leave the EU but Westminster won't allow Scotland to leave the union based on the will of the people. Hypocritical to the last.
I demand a second referendum, or a recount or simply to ignore the current muppetry.
Flying 🙂
Captain they had a 2 year campaign and a Referendum. It's not like a lads golf weekend where you get a Mulligan if you FU
Captain they had a 2 year campaign and a Referendum. It's not like a lads golf weekend where you get a Mulligan if you FU
Confused by the (non) answer. 😳
Mulligan in golf is where you get the shot again if you make a dogs breakfast of the first go, lads weekend sort of rule
Did this really need another thread? 🙄
Mulligan in golf is where you get the shot again if you make a dogs breakfast of the first go, lads weekend sort of rule
Patronise who?
Still don't see what that has to do with england wanting to have a say in Scotland leaving and what I believe would have been a block by Westminster if Scotland had vioted yes.
£350 million per week
Nobeerinthefridge - Member
Did this really need another thread?
Needs another forum.
Needs an alternative universe.
Personally? I would like to see a referendum on scottish independence inabout 18 months time. By then the disaster of leaving the EU will become even more obvious and by doing it on that timescale scotland becomes the successor state when the UK leaves the EU
Despite what allthe unionists would have you believe this is a perfectly possible scenario as many senoir EU politicians have said
My overall preference tho would be for all the idiotic politicians to shut up, the UK to stay in the EU and a proper constitutional convention to create a federal UK
However that not going to happen so an independent scotland remaining in the EU is the best I am going to get.
TJ how much in £ or € 😉
Captain, was just answering what I thought was your question. They had in Alex Salmond's words a "once in a lifetime" Referendum and voted No
Not been a single actual answer yet. Will leave you all to it, don't want to interfere with the thread.
Thing is leaving the EU won't be a disaster, it'll be a bit different and might have a few downsides but it won't be a disaster.
Tell that to the families who might not be able to live together because one of them is an EU citizen.
Dragon - its already as disaster falling pound, companies pulling out and its going to get much much worse
Jamba - as an independent scotland in Europe will be much better off that remaining in the UK but out of Europe there is no cost.
all those banks will relocate to Edinburgh rather than frankfurt.
Tell that to the families who might not be able to live together because one of them is an EU citizen.
Much as you wish it were true, because it confirms your bias, I find it almost impossible to believe that families will be split up because of EU nationality. There are plenty of non-EU families that live here; I know three in my small locality alone. There's paperwork involved that isn't required at the moment, but it's hardly packing them onto ferries and toasting their departure back to their homeland.
Source: I used to be a passport stamper for the Immigration & Nationality Directorate.
CFH - if you think these threads go round and round on here you should see the lions threads on the rugby forum I am on.
Depends if they earn over the £35k threshold. It's already splitting up non-EU couples.
Flying ox. If all the EU nationals here at the moment apply for right to stay ( whatever its called) it will take over a thousand years to process them - and May has said they will need new ID cards to show they have continuance rights!
Which of course means ID cards for everyone - "Yes officer, I'm a UK citizen, honest!" "Prove it."
Are the too related?
C'mon Captain, cant you make some stuff up about Wales so that we can have an new record? Don't you guys want to be spanked by Schauble?
Serious question, will the EU want an independent Scotland? If yes why? I thought they all sent wee Jimmy Cranky home with her tail between her legs?
Serious question
wee Jimmy Cranky
If you're going to pretend to be an impartial questioner, maybe lay off the misogyny?
Anyhow, of course they want us, we're a relatively wealthy democracy with loads of natural resources, huge renewables potential, world class universities, lots of manufacturing, and an open and welcoming attitude to EU migrants.
all those banks will relocate to Edinburgh rather than frankfurt.
For that you'll need a very large central bank (see mess in Iceland with large banks and small state) and a regulator with sufficient experienced staff. None of Paris, Frankfurt or Dublin have that (esp regulatory side). If you recall AS / SNP said no central bank was required, it wasn't in the plan. If the UK could have offloaded Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland we would have gladly done so and would still be glad to in RBS's case
That wasn't misogynistic Bencooper that was called taking the piss! I can't help it I think she's a spiteful creature.
Anyway I understand that Scotland has oil but the price is low. The Scottish oil industry is struggling. Doesn't it need to be over $1 a barrel to make the maths add up for Scotland?
I don't think the EU would want Scotland, not straight away anyway, surely they would want to see how the economy went being independent.
This would all take time, years, maybe a decade and by then the way things are going the EU could be finished anyhow.
A bit of a non thread really thinking about it.
mitsui - lots of senior EU politicians have said the scenario of iScotland being the successor state when England and Wales leave is no problem at all.
Scotland is EU compliant, and it would be a big eff u to England
Even the spanish objection is much less as it sets no precedent for Catalonia and spain wants access to our fishing grounds.
If only the Argualympians had already gone over this ad infinitum, eh? Just imagine, if these same points had already been covered again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again and again, and again. WHEN WILL IT EVER END!
Flashy has it. Go to the eu thread, or the indyref thread, and stop polluting the forum with more melodrama.
CFH - come join the Lions threads on the rugby forum I am on - much worse than this.
A few people being inconvenienced and having to do some paperwork isn't my idea of a disaster. As for companies pulling out it doesn't appear to be happening at present.
Pound falling isn't a disaster, we have a floating currency for a reason. A fixed currency would be a disaster.
all those banks will relocate to Edinburgh rather than frankfurt.
No they won't, SNP tax policies will be a disincentive, not to mention Scotland can't support a large banking industry of the scale of London's
lots of senior EU politicians have said the scenario of iScotland being the successor state when England and Wales leave is no problem at all.
How many? Who? And will they be still in post in a couple of years time?
mitsumonkey - Member
That wasn't misogynistic Bencooper that was called taking the piss! I can't help it I think she's a spiteful creature...
Care to give an actual example?
However that's not going to happen so an independent Scotland remaining in the EU is the best I am going to get.
You keep going with this line, I'm not sure why.
Scotland cannot remain an EU member state because it is not an EU member state.
This is simple fact.
Look at any list of EU member states, Scotland is not one of them.
[url= https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries_en ]Here, have a look on me.[/url]
Splitting with the UK would result in Scotland being a new entity, which would not be a member of the EU.
It's all in the treaties, readily available to the public on line.
Why not read them?
Unless [Junkyard] you're just a troll?[/Junkyard]
There's a simple solution of course - for England (and Wales if they want to) to leave the UK. England gets the independence from the EU it wants, it gets rid of us freeloading Scots, job done. The rest of the UK gets to carry on as an EU state, which is what we want.
What's wrong with this plan? I don't mean "that's stupid" objections, I mean what are the actual, legal, practical objections to this plan? Because it makes a lot of sense to me.
How long have you been a member sbob? 😉
Re the idea that the big banks would up sticks to Edinburgh and noting already the obvious responses as to why that wouldn't happen, there was some good advice posted on the EU thread for people struggling with what's going on
If you actually knew the slightest thing about scottish politics you would stop with the nonsense. Perhaps a little listening and learning might help you understand a little more and stop you making such ridiculous assertions
Wise words, wise words indeed.... 😉
gordimhor - Member
£350 million per week
$110 a barrel
😆
What's wrong with this plan? I don't mean "that's stupid" objections, I mean what are the actual, legal, practical objections to this plan? Because it makes a lot of sense to me.
1 - most Scots don't want it
2 - Scotland would inherit treaty obligations and the countries on the other end of those treaties wouldn't really like such a large change, therefore such a move wouldn't be recognised internationally (call it unlawful if you like). It isn't a solely domestic issue. If 90% of the country "leaves" then really it hasn't and it's actually the 10% that has left.
The whole successor state thing was done to death. It can't happen.
If you are speaking in the narrow context of the EU, anything is possible by treaty change (the SNP's preferred method of joining) but the EU have been consistently clear that the route to membership would be the standard application route. Given how many different states need to agree and the variety of politics involved, nothing unusual would happen in practice. We'd be accepted, but on standard terms (probably quite quickly though, in comparison to other countries because we meet most but not all of the requirements already).
1 - most Scots don't want it
Pah, details.......
Most Scots do want EU membership. About 45% want independence. If the latter is the only way to get the former, then it gets interesting.
grumpy - plenty of senior and influential EU politicians have said there is no issue at all with Scotlands continuing membership if they Scotland gets an independence vote before the UK leaves. Not reported in the unionist press tho of course.
tjagain - MemberScotland's continuing membership
Scotland is not an EU member state.
Check this list of EU member states; Scotland isn't on it:
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries_en
Here's another list of EU countries but it's all on one page, just in case you thought Scotland was hiding somewhere!
Naughty Scotland!
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en
You may also make note of the comments about joining the EU.
Here's a third list of EU member states just in case you didn't like the first two, and I'm afraid Scotland still isn't making an appearance 🙁 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union
Scotland’s future in the bloc of 28 states was endorsed at the weekend by German economy minister Sigmar Gabriel, who is close to Chancellor Angela Merkel.Gabriel told a German newspaper that the EU would certainly accept Scotland as a member in its own right after leaving the UK
In an interview during the summer Guy Verhofstadt, the European parliament’s chief Brexit negotiator, said there should be no obstacles to an independent Scotland being part of the EU, saying it would be “suicide” for the EU to refuse entry to people who are sympathetic to the EU’s aims.
And plenty of others.
It would not be without difficulty. However plenty of non scots eu law experts have said there is no barrier. Plenty of senior and important EU politicians and officials have said its possible
I'll see your nobodies and raise you the European Commission President :
"Although there is no certainty, it appears an independent Scotland would not automatically become a member of the EU but would instead have to re-apply and complete a process of accession... A new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory."
This really is old ground.
A couple more then I'll leave this to the illinformed english right wingers who having cut their noses off to spite their face want to cut our noses off as well.
Weber, a close ally of German chancellor Angela Merkel, told the Financial Times, in relation to Scotland, that “Those who want to stay are welcome in the European Union.”Weber chair the EPP group, the biggest and most influential bloc in the European parliament.
Gunther Krichbaum, chair of Germany’s European affairs committeeKrichbaum, also an ally of Chancellor Merkel, said he expected an independent Scotland to become a member of the EU smoothly.
He told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper (also picked up by Reuters): “The EU will still consist of 28 member states, as I expect a new independence referendum in Scotland, which will then be successful.”
“We should respond quickly to an application for admission from the EU-friendly country,” he added.
Gunther Krichbaum, chair of Germany’s European affairs committeeKrichbaum, also an ally of Chancellor Merkel, said he expected an independent Scotland to become a member of the EU smoothly.
He told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper (also picked up by Reuters): “The EU will still consist of 28 member states, as I expect a new independence referendum in Scotland, which will then be successful.”
“We should respond quickly to an application for admission from the EU-friendly country,” he added.
Micheál Martin has said.Share
The Fianna Fáil leader believes that while the future of Scotland within the UK is a matter for themselves, Ireland should support them in a bid to re-enter the EU if the situation arises.
“I and my party believe that it would be unacceptable for Scotland to be treated as a normal candidate country should it seek to remain as a member of the EU.
“It currently implements all EU laws. It manifestly would not need to be reviewed for its standards of governance and ability to implement EU laws.
“It has a strong administration, a distinct legal system and an absolute commitment to European ideals,” Mr Martin told an emergency Dáil debate on the outcome of the EU referendum.
“Scotland is strong enough to advocate for itself, but Ireland should be its friend and demand fair play should it seek to remain in the EU.
Vice-president of the EPP, Poland’s Jacek Saryusz-WolskiVerified, said Scotland is “welcome in EU”,
This really is old ground.
But like an election result, something to be trodden underfoot in pursuit of the will of the minority.
Pah, details.....
Nobodies? The EUs chief negotiator on Uk exit, Chair of the biggest group in the european parliament?
Whats the date on that quote sBob - you see uk leaving the EU changes the game.
This really is old ground.
Indeed 2012 to be clear and it was an answer in relation to when scotland was leaving the UK and then wanting to enter the EU afterwards. Given that its not really relevant to the current scenario as, in this case, the option of being the successor state is clearly on the table.
Facts here is anyone cares
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619907
Steve Peers, professor of law at the University of Essex says: "It's now much more plausible that other member states would agree to amend the Treaties to transfer the UK's membership of the UK to Scotland."
.....
Prof Peers also writes: "The political context of the issue would now be different: unlike in 2014, facilitating Scottish EU membership would not be now seen as creating a kind of incentive for a member state to split up, given that the UK is leaving the EU anyway."
I wonder why all those former Iron Curtain countries were able to access EU membership so quickly? Yet our rabid colonial masters seem to believe that Scotland will not get the same consideration.
The only real problem we will face is the spite and obstruction from the right wing English Establishment, and as England will no longer be an EU member, I can't see that being a major problem.
Just as England can thrive outside the EU, so can Scotland thrive outside the UK.
how about the welsh and the N Irish? the real forgotten....
the reality is we cannot be certain what the outcome will be*
We can be certain that the scenario is considerably different from if IUS leaves the UK and they remain in the EU
Citing quotes form their as proof of now is unwise.
* IMHO the EU is by nature expansionist and will be happy to keep a member
It will be even more happy to do it when it surrounds the rUK with the EU and it can extract that as price for the UK leaving and use it in negotiations.
That said though none of us can know for certain
you see uk leaving the EU changes the game.
No it doesn't.
The laws remain the same.
That pre-Brexit vote quote was precisely in the context of Brexit.
The only way Scotland could [u]gain[/u], note; not continue EU membership is to change current EU law.
It would only take one member state to prevent this.
Oh look!
Here comes one now!
Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said:
"I am extremely against it, the treaties are extremely against it and I believe everyone is extremely against it. If the United Kingdom leaves... Scotland leaves,"
pah, details....
So some EU experts and EU people say its possible, and some say it's not. The only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from this is that nobody knows for sure and neither outcome can be definitively ruled out.
I'm in favour of remaining in Europe, but if leaving Europe makes no sense, Scotland leaving the UK makes less.
Scotland makes £11.6Bn exports to EU and £48.5Bn to rest of UK annually. Which would you keep?
Before you say:
"But an independent Scotland would still be able to export to the rest of the UK".
Remind yourself that your economic argument rests on the "fact" that leaving Europe will cut us off from trading with them.
If leaving Europe will cut off trade with EU and lead to hard borders, why would cutting off rest of UK lead to anything less?
So pick a consistent attitude and try to hold on to it.
In summary .. Every time someone says
"If we leave EU we must become independent for economic reasons"
They are either a liar or a fool.
[quote=thegreatape ]So some EU experts and EU people say its possible, and some say it's not. The only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from this is that nobody knows for sure and neither outcome can be definitively ruled out.
I think its more of case of the spanish really dont want it["independent states within a state" joining the EU] due to the Basque separatists so they may be politically motivated by domestic politics rather than experts on this issue/treaty.
That said clearly we cannot be certain what will happen.
Spot on Junkyard. When it was Scotland leaving the Uk and joining the EU that would set precedent for Catalonia hence the spanish objection. Now its England leaving the EU and scotland remaining in then this does not set that precedent.
The UK euro referendum changes the whole landscape on this
Yes no one can be sure but 4 things are clear
1) Major voices in the EU have said there would be no issue with scotland becoming the successor state
2)there is no legal or constitutional problem with this
3) the spanish objection no longer applies
4) its in the EUs interests for Scotland to become the successor state and to remain in the EU
Now its England...
So the poor old Welsh still don't count? Dont worry Flashy, AA and Co, your English friends have not forgotten you.
Na, they don't count, don't even have their own cricket team.... 😆
😀
Scotland to become the successor state
So if England and Wales leave, Scotland ends up with all the debt, right?
It's your pound, remember?
tjagain - MemberNow it's England leaving the EU and Scotland remaining in
Scotland can't remain an EU member; it isn't one. 🙂
Ninfan - nice point. Only if we get ALL the asset as well.
Do you really think that the eu wouldn't welcome Scotland with open arms just to piss off mr Farage and co?
Sbob. do they have their own passport in Scotland or do they use a European one?
Careful ninfan, its gets v complicated knowing which side of the balance sheet currency sits on.
Yes no one can be sure but 4 things are clear
1) Major voices in the EU have said there would be no issue with scotland becoming the successor state
2)there is no legal or constitutional problem with this
3) the spanish objection no longer applies
4) its in the EUs interests for Scotland to become the successor state and to remain in the EU
1. nope, major voices have said that they would be friendly to scotland joining the EU under an expedited process but this is not the same as being a successor state
2. probably not but there are some major political ones.
3. yes it does as the core principle remains and any independance referendum that results in EU memebership will embolden catelonia
4. possibly but you have provided no evidence to support that assertion. Scotlands likely deficit would be a fairly large impediment
zippykona - MemberDo you really think that the eu wouldn't welcome Scotland with open arms just to piss off mr Farage and co?
I am absolutely sure that the EU would welcome the new independent state of Scotland to apply for EU membership, with open arms.
William - actually they have said scotland could be considered a successor state or have continuity of membership
The Spanish objection was based around Scotland setting a precedent for catalonia. Post the euro referendum this no longer applies as it would not be a country splitting and both parts being in the EU but instead a part of a country leaving and the other part simply being the successor state. IN the circumstances that now apply its not a unanimous vote needed anyway - just majority ( probably)
If you are interested I could point you to a lot of work folk have done around the EU laws and constitution on this
Scotland has most of the EUs oil and half of its fishing. To say nothing of the fact scotland would still be paying in to the EU budget.
Of course there are problems with it but actually reading what these EU bods say its clear that they will find a way to do what they want. Its an unprecedented issue tho so hard to be certain
But Will, its almost worth it just to see wee nippy implement the required austerity policies to qualify while the Tories continue their expansionary fiscal policy south of the border!!
I am absolutely sure that the EU would welcome the new independent state of Scotland to apply for EU membership, with open arms.
😀
teamhurtmore - MemberSo the poor old Welsh still don't count? Dont worry Flashy, AA and Co, your English friends have not forgotten you.
Woah there!!!
Are you replying to [i]tj[/i]?
I'll have to report you to teacher for that!
He wants nought to do with you, don't you know?
I know this as he mentions it at every available opportunity. 😆
Was I? Dammit, I was concentrating on the point actually. Poor old Welsh (and N Irish) being forgotten all the time - and some say that the English are myopic!!
Have to say though as a "fact geek", it does get tiring correcting all the factual errors though doesn't it!
tjagain - Memberthe Spanish objection no longer applies
Which part of "If the United Kingdom leaves... Scotland leaves" are you having trouble understanding?
Is it the bit you don't like the sound of?
teamhurtmore - MemberWas I? Dammit, I was concentrating on the point actually. Poor old Welsh (and N Irish) being forgotten all the time - and some say that the English are myopic!!
It's good to have confirmation that this was never a Scottish vs English thing though.
why else would he [s]troll[/s] erm sorry reply to someone he knows cannot see his posts ?
of course he wants to goad him as that is what THM does
At least TJ Is refraining from acting in the same way. Me a lot less so but lets see what happens with THM
SPKLWCTHI
tjagain, but none of your quotes actually say that do they? I have no doubt Scotland would face an expedited application process but being considered a successor state is a whole different ballgame. even an expedited process would result in Scotland facing some hard questions with regard to currency and budget deficits.
Thanks for the offer but I’ve been condescended to by better than you
the fact that there are other views and this source has an internal reason to state this that is not repeated by other EU leaders. His opinion is not a fact neither is yours mine or TJ's.Which part of "If the United Kingdom leaves... Scotland leaves" are you having trouble understanding?
you can use the one quote you can find and ignore all the others you dont like as you see fit but its a bit rich to accuse someone else of not liking some quotes.
i have no doubt you are speculating like he isI have no doubt Scotland would face an expedited application process
We just dont know what will happen but if the EU want them to join they can and it is not unreasonable to see something as a successor state to the already in place treaty.
Clearly some may object but that alone does not mean it wont happen we just dont know