[Closed] Snowboard- sketchy on piste, comfortable off-piste

There is no way to answer this question without seeing you ride. Probably you're not very good at edging your board, which is a big problem on-piste and no problem in powder.

I can understand why I'm comfortable in powder. Why do i feel uncomfortable on-piste?

Primarily because snowboarding is much easier in powder than on an icy piste.

it took me a few weeks to truly relax on piste, and that really was the key, just totally relaxing. I was tensing up into turns as I was so worried I would catch an edge. It pretty much just came to me one day, totally relaxing, pretty much not thinking about the mechanics of making the turn. It also helps to relax when gliding on flats or straightlining, I think if you are expecting to catch an edge, then you might be tensing in anticipation, or forcing too much of an edge.

Also I'm really bad at bending my knees enough in turns, I tend to have legs too straight and bend my back instead.

try and get some first lift runs in first thing in the morning when the piste is smooth and quiet, you'll feel much more confident than when it is chopped up later in the day.

quite hard to explain really, but you'll get it eventually.

p.s very jealous of the powder

Plus a slayblade is a bit of a beast of a board, you don't state what level you are but I'm going to guess beginner if you're uncomfortable of piste. To ride the slayblade on piste you really need to work it, it's a board made for charging. Off-piste you also have the comfort level of falling into a 1m thick duvet, and not onto icy hardpack. It's amazing how much quicker my GF is when you remove the fear factor of a hard piste!

thanks for the help, folks. I could definitely work on my technique, especially posture and switching between the edges.

Theoretically, would it be easier to switch between heel and toes if i used a narrower board? (i wont, my feet are too big!)

Theoretically, would it be easier to switch between heel and toes if i used a narrower board? (i wont, my feet are too big!)

much.

I've only got size 9's, even my tiny pixie feet overhang a narrow board by an inch or so - but i've got to lean waaay over before my toes 'drag'.

HansRey - no, it won't be easier FOR YOU to switch between edges on a narrower board. You have big feet and you need a wide board, you have the leverage to use it properly.

For someone with smaller feet, a wide board will be slower edge to edge. I have tiny feet, size 7 (despite being a 14-stone bloke) and I really notice board width - even the difference between the 249 waist on my usual board and the 255 waist on my park board is very noticeable to me.

You'd be unlikely to notice much difference until you got to the point where your heels and toes were hitting the snow, which is a very bad thing.

no idea if this applies to your board or not, but I recently switched from a Burton custom x board , which I loved, There wasnt any scenario where I felt it wasnt any good (on piste, off piste etc), to a Burton Antler, which only felt any good off piste (and still wasnt as good off piste as the custom x) , and was generally no where near as nice to use on piste as the custom x.

Based on that I've ditched the Antler (well its for sale if anyone wants it), and got another custom x, its a night and day difference, with the custom x being so much better than the Antler.

The antler is one of these new fangled fairly flexible hybrid rocker/camber boards, and the custom x is an old school stiff camber board. My conclusion is that I prefer camber boards to rocker boards.

I've got big feet and hate wide, fat boards because they don't turn as well as narrower ones. I use a combination of higher angles and toe lifts to avoid tow drag.

OK, I can see the problem, this board has a raised profile in the middle which effectively raises the edges so you will have to edge harder than normal on the piste. There's been a trend over the last few years of mixed rockers and cambers as the sport has matured and sales numbers have dropped off and brands try ever harder to gain market share from a declining base.

Generally when you ride off piste in powder all your weight is on the back foot anyway and turns flow from the head down leaning from side to side sort of surf, waterski style whereas on the piste your weight transfers to the front foot and it's all about keeping your shoulders facing down the fall line the rear of the board unweighted and moving from edge to edge. That board will wash out over the back of icy moguls for instance without you getting chance to bat an eyelid, it will need an experts technique on piste, it's also a wide board which even on a normal old style cambered board was not the easiest of rides.

I'd get yourself something a little more conventional

dereknightrider - no offense meant, but I disagree with pretty-much everything you've written there.

I don't think the OP's issues have much to do with the board.

Never mind technique, whereabouts is this pow?!

Have you ridden many of these new style boards?

I can tell you (I used to sell them have done since the inception of snowboarding) they can bite you in the bum.

The last one I tried with an edge to edge raised centre profile not unlike the Slayblade thing. At the top of the hill I set off and marvelled at the ease of edge to edge and how nice it felt, halfway down the snow wasn't so brilliant I ended up all over the place washing out on moguls almost falling and I'm a half decent rider been doing it since 93.

Trust me it's the board.

derekightrider - yes, I have cambered, rockered, v-rockered, s-rockered and flat boards in my quiver! I'm an old-school camber kind of guy myself, but other shapes are fun to ride in the right circumstances.

I had more issue with your technique descriptions than the board chat though!

Any rider can ride any board, it just takes some adjustment. If he's having issues with his riding, he needs to sort his technique out, not buy a new board. Lessons would be a much better investment. I'm an instructor though, so obviously I would say that...

It begins...

So you're an instructor, I'll leave it to you then, not looking for a pissing contest, but trust me he'd be better off as a beginner on piste without a raised centre profile board big foot or not.

Lessons would be a much better investment.

^^This^^

At the risk of stoking the obvious fire, it certainly seems to me that the majority of snowboarders feel they don't need lessons, while they'd almost certainly get a lot more out of their "riding"* with lessons.

* Yeah, what about it? 😉

So you're an instructor, I'll leave it to you then, not looking for a pissing contest, but trust me he'd be better off as a beginner on piste without a raised centre profile board big foot or not.

Fair enough, it does look like a weird profile, never ridden anything quite like that. I can't decide if it would be pretty-much just like a normal camber or if it's a whole other beast entirely.

CaptainFlashHeart - I agree with you. I think this is also an important factor in people leaving the sport, either to quit or switching to skiing. Many of those who do so blame it on problems with flat spots, drag lifts, icy pistes, traverses, etc., all of which are easily solved with better technique.

Equally, I was self-taught and thought I was pretty sh*t-hot until starting instructor training opened my eyes to how bad a rider I really was! Un-learning my old technique has been a long journey!

switching to skiing.

Well, we all know why that is.....

No one wants to look like their grandparents, do they? 😉 Snowboarding's the old man's sport now! (I knew skiing would become cool again if I stuck it out long enough!)

But yes, lessons are a massive thing. I'd been skiing for ages between lessons, but went back to a small group lesson in SerreChe about four years ago to do a bit of a refresher. I got so much better in just a week, that I then went back for a few sessions on every trip since.

Worryingly, haven't been on snow for a couple of years (Kids!) but am back in a couple of weeks. Desperately trying to remember all the things I learnt!

When was the last time your board was waxed and had the edges sharpened? I started waxing my board myself 2 winters ago and I found that made a difference for me but I'm now beginning to think my edges need sharpened as for some reason I'm finding it difficult to hold an edge on my board at the moment and it keeps washing out on me. It's either that or I'm just getting pish after not getting much riding in this winter 😆

Actually convincing grown men that they need lessons is impossible. Some of our crew have wasted entire holidays presumably to save face. It was a skier who was worst this year 😉

+1 for lessons, I can still hear my instructor shouting "Jeeeem, bend ze kneeees" to this day.

Trust me it's the board.

Nothing to do with the board - the Slayblade, due to the flat base profile is a pretty forgiving ride for a stiff charging board.

Don't worry about it OP, hard packed pistes are always the most difficult to master but it will come with practice. At first you'll feel you want to be on one edge or the other, but after a few weeks of practice you'll be relaxed enough to flat base almost everywhere. It's all about developing the feel for doing this so that you can relax. It will take time on the board though, but keep doing it and it will eventually come.

As a technique hint for now, when you're linking turns, whilst you're riding heel edge really sit down into the turn, arse out low over the back of the board. When you're toe side, stand up tall and push your pelvis out forward. Doing this as an excersise (so you're bobbing up and down through the turns) will really help improve your on piste riding until you get to the point where you don't even think about it any more.

I've been riding a lot of park and woodlands stuff in Finland with the Slayblade, prior to the trip. About 3 seasons worth. So, I thought that i was comfortable with it! Much more than the other (10-15yr old) boards i've used before. Put me on a steeper, alpine piste with crowds and ice then my technique falls flat. It has been an eye-opener.

I know my technique needs improving. I've been looking at videos taken today of me on-piste and off-piste. My stance is very rigid and unbalanced on-piste, partly due to nerves and vertigo! Off-piste, i look much more relaxed and limber. Arranging some lessons is a good idea when i'm next in the alps. Finnish slopes aren't particularly steep or long, which is where the issue lies.

ohhh, and I'm at Zell-am-see

When you're toe side, stand up tall and push your pelvis out forward.

agent007 - Its interesting you advise this. I've never met a Beginner/Int who has been taught this way. Personally I think its the completely correct way for a beginner to learn a toe side turn. In my book I it would be to get this technique dialled (cross under turn) before progressing onto the more difficult hips back and bum low cross over turn.

Steveomcd - care to comment on this please? I don't think the british system don't teach cross under turns at the beginner level

Go to a few board tests, where you get to switch and try several different boards over the same terrain, you'll soon clock the differences.

I'm not anti lessons, they're essential if you doubt your technique, but, there are boards that screw things up by being super good at one thing but useless say on ice for example.

Another interesting thing I came to notice over the years and you can spot for example a UK rider a mile off by their lack of 'carving' ability and shuffle skate style turns derived from embryonic years on dry and indoor slopes with not much piste depth. Learning how to properly 'carve' a turn helps in iffy conditions although you should also know when to run flat over the ice and spot the point to carve.

You can't deal with stuff like this on forums other than to advise the two things, lessons if you think its technique or another style of board if not, rent one for a day if necessary.

I rode a Slayblade for three years (until it got nicked), and loved that board. Great in all situations, off piste and on piste. The only places it fell down were in the park and when trying to butter etc. It's just too stiff for that, but then it's not what the board is designed for. It's designed as a hard all mountain charger and this is where it excels.

It's super quick, super stable at speed and pretty easy to get onto the rails carving - although there are better carving boards out there. OP if you were riding mostly in the park, or a complete beginner then yes the Slayblade would be the wrong board for you, but it does sound ideal for the sort of riding you're doing so trust me it's probably not the board. Wide does make a slight difference - I'm a 10.5 shoe size and went for a standard board, but I'm on the limit here really, any bigger and I'd be on a wide board.

Earl/Agent007 - There's some fairly confused terminology going on there, but to try to sort it out:

For beginners and intermediates, all turns should involve an up/down movement (extend/flex). You should extend up for the edge change and turn initiation, then flex down through the turn. This is the same on both edges, it shouldn't be different for toe / heel. More advanced riders can reduce this movement. The flex/extend is intended to unweight the board at the edge change to make the edge change and turn initiation easier. However, this reduces grip at the critical end of the old turn / start of the new turn phase, so, for those with the skills to do so, it's better to keep pressure on the board (for a beginner, this is likely to lead to an edge-catch!).

Cross-over/cross-under - the turn generally taught to beginners/intermediates and used by most riders you see on the mountain is a cross-over turn. Roughly speaking, this means that the "pivot-point" that the body-weight moves around is at the board, so the whole body moves across the board (hence "cross-over"). Cross-under is generally a more advanced turn where the pivot is at head height and the board and body move underneath (hence cross-under). It's pretty hard to do a cross-under turn if you're still flexing/extending. You can also blend these into a cross-through, where the pivot is somewhere around the hips or centre of gravity.

Posture - the ankles, hips and shoulders should always be "stacked" on top of each other. The hips should never stick out backwards, nor should the shoulders ever come forwards. When you flex down, imagine that there is a pole fixed to the heel edge of the board and your back is pressed flat against it and you're sliding up and down against the pole, keeping your whole back (and shoulders) in contact.

Based on that I've ditched the Antler (well its for sale if anyone wants it)

Could bw interested, what size is it? And year?

When you flex down, imagine that there is a pole fixed to the heel edge of the board and your back is pressed flat against it and you're sliding up and down against the pole, keeping your whole back (and shoulders) in contact.

Sounds like most lapdancers would make fantastic snowboarders 😉

agent007 - that is exactly the image I use when teaching! (with appropriate groups of course!)

stevomcd - What about forward/backwards weighting? I was taught to keep weight forwards. On our last week away I was finding my back leg really aching and couldn't work out a position to reduce/eliminate this.

I ride regular duck (15 degrees on both bindings)

thetallpaul - most people are taught to put their weight on the front foot, for the simple reason that 99% of beginners / low-intermediates end-up riding with their weight on the back foot.

This is fine, you need to get your weight forward to initiate a turn. However, your weight should then move progressively backwards through the turn. The forward movement should actually be quite brief, with more time spent centred or towards the rear of the board.

Alternatively, think of it as having your weight centred at all times, with movements fore/aft to initiate and finish your turns.

This is one of the issues with the small number of lessons most snowboarders take. They get as far as being told to get weight on the front foot and then, because they never take any more lessons, they think of this as a golden rule of snowboarding, when it's actually more of a teaching-tool for beginners.

singletrackstinker - Will send you a PM about the antler.

Usual bunch of folk spraffling on about the kit.

It's your technique mate (or lack thereof)

Get a one to one off a decent instructor - its the best money you'll ever spend

julians - Member
singletrackstinker - Will send you a PM about the antler.

Ta, email in profile.

I must say I am enjoying all this snowboard talk. Shred on

As a skier all I'll say is snowboards seem to have been designed for offpiste where they seem to be a joy. All I observe on piste is that they are a world of pain for the riders and the other slope users !

There had to be one Andy. 🙄

sorry for straying op...

stevomcd - can can we discuss this some more? - not trolling here but just want to get your opinion as you are a sb instructor (which I'm not - just keen as hell)

Nice and fast heel/toe cross under turns are definitely more advanced - I agree.

Below is why I think, for a beginner, a toe side cross under is better to learn as their first turn.

What I see is that beginners tend to struggle going from heel to toe. Hence you see them scraping down the whole run on their heels... Where the slope is not that steep i.e. beginner area or in a dome, I think its actually harder to do a cross over toe side turn that a cross under toe side. You need a certain amount of angle or speed to not fall flat on your face for a cross over. The cross under position you can get to while standing still on the flat. Also to do a toe side cross under from a heel side position is very simplistic - stand up and thrust your hips forward - its a big gross movement.

Ok - a big drawn out cross under turn is not great to reacting to bumpy snow but blue runs and domes are usually pretty well groomed.

Have you ever tried it with one of your students?

Put me on a steeper, alpine piste with crowds and ice then my technique falls flat. It has been an eye-opener.

I highly recommend avoiding crowded, icy alpine pistes.

Japan is nice 🙂

Earl - sorry, not (also!) trying to be difficult, but it's not possible to do a cross-under turn while "standing still on the flat". By definition, the board has to move.

Imagine riding your bike and slaloming through a series of bollards. Your head moves more or less in a straight line (along the line of bollards) while your bike moves around a lot underneath you as it goes round alternate sides of the bollards. This is pretty similar to cross-under turns on a snowboard.

You can't really talk about a "cross-under position" vs a "cross-over position". The positions may well (in fact, with good posture, should be) more-or-less the same, it's the movement that's different.

The turn we teach to beginners is the basic turn. This involves going from sideslipping on one edge to pivotting the board around until it is pointing directly down the fall-line. At this point, you change edge. As you're pointing straight down, no real speed or balance is required. You then pivot around until sideslipping on the other edge. This is a cross-over turn because the body moves across the board, although it can be quite a subtle movement.

There had to be one Andy

just an update. I'm now safely back home having had a great weeks boarding.

I'm not so hot on the differences between cross-over/cross-under positions. But, I really worked on getting a relaxed, neutral position (knees bent, low c.o.g.) on the board. I ended up feeling more confident and chilled on the slopes. The advice was helpful.

Next action is to book a couple of sessions with an instructor.

Have a look at snowboardcoach.co.uk and find out when he is running a performance day at one of the domes.
It's about £100 including slope time and is worth every penny.
What Stevo is talking about is bang on.
I had to undo years of poor technique and take everything back to basics and it's made my riding much better.
Cross over turns - as you've finished the turn your body crosses over the board as you start the next turn, in effect your leaning down the slope.
Cross under - your head follows a straight line and the legs/board do all the moving.
Neither one of those turns are generally used by the side slipping masses that haven't had more than a day or 2's worth of lessons.

I really worked on getting a relaxed, neutral position (knees bent, low c.o.g.)

Definitely one of the best things you can do, good work!