[Closed] Snow tyres - do they, erm, work?

You don't want snow tyres, you want cold weather/winter tyres...often combined with mud and snow tyres. Ideally with a snowflake symbol.

I run m&S all year on my van as I tow across fields. Coped well in last years snow. Contrary to popular opinion, winter tyres are often quieter than all-season despite the more aggressive tread, due to the softer rubber compound.

Most of the cars that get stuck around here do so due to ice, snow chains won't help in this situation. They are designed for traction in snow.

I just picked up some part worn tyres 5mm delivered today, just stuck them on the front, 60 quid, delivered, bargain, 20 quid fitting and swap front to rear.

Pirelli Winter Sorrotos or something like that.

And believe it or not, a noticeable difference on the way back from fitting in grip and feel.

Really surprised.

So 80 quid to get me through to march and then stick new tyres on that were due anyway, not bad really.

Winter tyres use a softer compound to grip better in lower temperatures, and have a different tread pattern to clear more water and extra "sipes" to claw at the surface which is what makes them better in snow.
They actually last longer than standard tyres in the winter as standard compound becomes brittle in the cold and wears faster. Generally good for October to March as they are designed for temps less than 7 degrees average. Get a spare steel wheel set and go for it.
Interestingly it is very common to buy a second set of steelies and winter tyres on the continent when you buy a new car, and summer/winter tyre sales are about 50/50. Strange how very little people have them here.

Winter tyres make a night and day difference to driving. The lack of them is the single biggest reason Britain gets shut down every time it experiences temperatures less than 0 with a few flurries.

People talk about getting a 4x4 as if that will make driving easier, but what they need to understand is that the proper tyres for the conditions provide more grip not just because of the tread, but because of the rubber compound.

Even if we didn't get snow, it would still be worth changing your tyres from November to around March in order to accommodate the lower temperatures.

No, I don't work for a tyre company, but sometimes I wish I did...

Evo magazine tested some winter tyres on a 400bhp Jag XF (RWD) and it beat a 4WD car with standard tyres around their test track by 30s. 🙂

I have just stuck winter Tyres on the Transporter last week on the spare steelies I have instead of running my nice powder coated alloys.

Just in the nick of time.

They were £140 for the pair made by Master Steel so nowt fancy. They are superb. Keep it smooth and they just grip & grip. Bring on the snow...!

Have just ordered a set from mytyres for the missus car. Althouh it is fairly capable I like the idea of the stopping distances and handling improvements. So worth a go and hopefully they will come in useful.

Will see how long they take.

£280 for 4 fitted. Will have them put on the normal alloys for now and then pick up a set of steels after the rush is over.

Changing to winter tyres is law in alot of countries.

To be honest, for local roads if everyone carried a shovel and used it for 10minutes outside their house the roads would be far clearer and also you could easily keep the car moving with getting out and digging a bit.

as they are designed for temps less than 7 degrees average

Strange how very little people have them here.

The average temp in most of the UK (or where most people in the UK live) only drops to 7 degrees in December. So unless you live somewhere high and cold and or do most of your driving in those conditions then for a lot of the winter its simply not cold enough to warrant them. That not to say they're not useful if the journeys you make demand them. But unless these two cold winters are part of a longer trend then they're not something most people will have a case for fitting

Anyone have any experience of with any of these

Michelin Alpin A3
Nokian WR G2
Vredestein Snotwrac 3
Vredestein Quatrac 3

Not case at all unless for the rest of this possibly cold winter you want to give your woman and children the best chance of surviving.

Most peoples commuting times would also be well below the 7C 'limit' so the improved braking distances etc... may also make a bit of sense. Not to mention the ability to clear standing water far better, but then again a good driver can drive around the puddles......

In Scotland the average temp is 7 or less from November to March. Probably October to April if you only drive at night 😉

As above - if you want to keep moving and a bit safer in the winter then winter tyres with the mountain snowflake symbol are the ticket: improved traction in all cold conditions.

Possibly a fwd car with winter tyres will get stuck less in snow than a 4wd with summer tyres.

Our hill has about 7" snow atm - a mix of compacted, ruts and fresh and my old primera is getting about no problem (despite the snow scraping the underside of the bodywork). I only put them on the front this year and the back does swing roung when provoked - should have got 4.

I've only used Pirelli Sottozero's and Conti Winter Contacts. Both great. BTW - if you cant find "proper" winter tyres, some places (eg Farmers) have stocks of Bridgestone A001's - which are listed as 4 seasons but are mountain snowflake AFAIK.

My point is we have a shorter cold winter than our continental-climate cousins - thats why our tyre habits and legislation are different

I've used them on rental cars on the continent and they are very effective on both tarmac, hardpack and unconsolidated snow.

I have 'winter' M&S/Snowflake tyres on my car and it easily climbed steep snow covered roads this morning. Passed several who had tried but just got stuck. Could almost hear them thinking how on earth does he manage to keep going uphill 😀

The Snowtrac3 are very good on the work Focuses when going skiing at the weekends and also well priced. There is a test done by autoexpress (i think) online and they came 4th to the Michelin/Dunlop/Goodyear trio. Ace looking tread pattern too.

Nearly had some of those but went for Kumho 23s. Kumho seem to make good rally tyres, and these have won some Swedish awards. also did well in the German ADAC tests and saved £50 over the Vreds.

Hopefully not putting a price on safety but being efficient/economical etc.... .

I have also noticed all of the online retailers have put the prices up plenty since last week.

I had winter tyres fitted about 6 weeks ago and can confirm that after driving in todays snow I shall be fitting winter tyres to all future cars. I was driving down snow covered lanes this morning no skidding or sliding grip both uphill and down hill.

Mate has them on his Quattro p reg A4 (alps car) he was flying through the northumbrian snow at the weekend. Better than any 4x4s - he has a landy 90 and left it at home preferring the a4 in winter mode.

The point I think most are missing is that tyre size, tyre type and tyre pressures are all very important parameters to consider, but from what I can see most people who have trouble in the snow simply don't understand how to drive a car in slippery conditions, or even realise until it's far too late after it's broken traction, and then freeze in panic.

I spent all of last winter driving around in a pug 306 estate with all-season tyres, up and around mid scotland in a variety of conditions from hard-packed snow/ice to 8-9" deep fluffy coverings and never ONCE got stuck or slid off the road, and I put that down to practice and knowing the feel of the car. Whenever it snows I'll take it somewhere safe to re-learn the limits. Whenever I'm driving, if it's safe (wide bit of road, approaching an empty roundabout etc), I'll attempt to push the limits to figure out what the local conditions are in a place I can recover it easily. I try my tyres at different pressures. I CHECK my tyre pressures - 4psi makes a WORLD of difference in grip and contrary to how the big 4x4 guys do it, lower pressure doesnt seem to help my tyres at all, it builds up a central belt of snow that loses traction.

Mate has them on his Quattro p reg A4 (alps car) he was flying through the northumbrian snow at the weekend. Better than any 4x4s

That's quite interesting as I drove past 2 Quattro A4's yesterday, one stuck spinning in place in a petrol station and the other struggling up a B road spinning all over the show! I'd expected them to be notably better than they appear to be from my experience!

Honestly I couldnt get over how good it was and we have had proper snow - checkout dracs photos.

He even accelerated from a start to get it spinning up and it got about 50% grip. He does full seasons snowboarding in the Alps and uses this car there so has proper snow tyres on steelies for it

Ive just priced some winter 225/45/18s for a laugh - cheapest is 150 each so I think i will give it a miss.

You should get a vat break on winter tyres and then cancel all gritting.

Most people on here will quite happily chop and change MTB tyres according to conditions, why not car tyres (other than the sheer faff and expense of course!).

More than once I have used winter tyres year round. In Buxton (where I used to live) many of the taxi drivers do the same. I've had the Snow Trac which I was impressed with even in the height of summer. The current cheapies I have on are not so good; they tend to be a bit slidy on greasy corners. Like bike tyres, there are good ones and bad ones in all sorts of differing conditions, but they do make a difference

But unless these two cold winters are part of a longer trend then they're not something most people will have a case for fitting

😕

Pretty much anything that helps avoid an accident is worthwhile. We have Nokian WR (M&S) tyres on our XC90 and the car feels much more secure in the cold stuff too - the wear rate is also better than the continentals they replaced.

But unless these two cold winters are part of a longer trend then they're not something most people will have a case for fitting

I disagree. I really don't believe there is any disadvantage to using winter tyres even if it doesn't snow all winter (other than the expense). I guarantee the motorways would keep moving if everyone (a) had winter tyres on and (b) had more confidence/skill in the white stuff

I had the pleasure of enjoying 2 winters in Alberta, Canada. Our car was a Dodge Grand Caravan like this:

[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrFWSPwKTP44sIZx783moFY883ll8-_tOUp6uqtzg9aQJb6HX6 [/img]

Front wheel drive, heavy 4l engine over the front wheels.

1st winter it had all season tyres on it, 2nd winter it had winter tyres on it and they made a huge difference. Had a few sketchy moments that first winter but the snow tyres coped with everything from black ice to fresh powder on hills.

If I lived in part of the UK that had regular snow in the winter I would probably get winter tyres for our current motor, a Subaru Outback. Having said that the Subaru copes with snow pretty well being 4wd with quite narrow normal profile tyres and its not insanely powerful.

I have driven several different cars with winter tyres on when I lived over in Germany. They are great & make it much more like driving in 'normal' conditions.
I lived in a pretty hilly part of Bavaria and never once felt like I was going to get stuck or have an issue with traction.

I looked at getting winter tyres for my car, but keeping the same wheels, the only tyres I can find available in the size I need are >£100 each!
I could opt for the mytyres deal of winter tyres fitted to steel wheels and drop down to a smaller rim size (assuming the caliper on the front will not foul), but even that is looking at costing £480.

Unfortunately in the run up to Christmas, having just paid for my insurance and having my air-con pump need replacing I can't really afford to spank £500 on winter tyres.....will just have to be extra careful!

ivantate - what size tyres did you manage to get 4 off for £280?!

I badgered my old dear into getting some all season or winter tyres this year after a particularly nasty 7 hour 25 mile trip last year. Pleased to report that she thinks the difference is phenomenal and well worth the £400ish she paid for tyres and installation. Tyres are Bridgestone A001 all weather. She originally wanted Continental TS830 winter tyres but there's a 6 weeks wait for those.

I have driven several different cars with winter tyres on when I lived over in Germany. They are great & make it much more like driving in 'normal' conditions.
I lived in a pretty hilly part of Bavaria and never once felt like I was going to get stuck or have an issue with traction.

I looked at getting winter tyres for my car, but keeping the same wheels, the only tyres I can find available in the size I need are >£100 each!
I could opt for the mytyres deal of winter tyres fitted to steel wheels and drop down to a smaller rim size (assuming the caliper on the front will not foul), but even that is looking at costing £480.

Unfortunately in the run up to Christmas, having just paid for my insurance and having my air-con pump need replacing I can't really afford to spank £500 on winter tyres.....will just have to be extra careful!

ivantate - what size tyres did you manage to get 4 off for £280?!

Buy part worn then for this winter, even if it's just two.

I bought a new car (to me) at the weekend and was looking for some winter tyres for it. Almost impossible to find now in the required size at the end of November and the few online places that do have them on their list (though non of them has had any stock when rung up) are charging silly money for them - 50% more than a few months ago. Micheldever tyres which sell about 3000 tyres a day or something daft are now out of stock and do not plan on getting any more until next autumn. In fact I have now rung 5 local garages and none have any in stock or think they will be able to for the rest of the season. My tyre size is relatively large/sporty (215/45/17) but not that unusual I'd have thought.

In other words, great idea to keep everything nice and safe - just a shame something as boring as availability might stop this from happening for more folks. I'm going to just have to hope for a mild winter this year and pick up some for next year.

convert - This is who I bought from yesterday, delivered today
[url= http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/205-55-16-PIRELLI-SOTTO-ZERO-WINTER-PART-WORN-x1-16363-/180592582285?pt=UK_Cars_Tyres_RL&hash=item2a0c281e8d ]Tyres[/url]

They are part worn, but for the price I'm not arguing and they will get me through the winter no problem

I called the depot directly and haggled a deal as well, 60 quid all in for two tyres.

They aren't new, but they will do another 5000+ miles easily.

These were the ones I got:

http://www.winter-tyres.co.uk/kumho_kw23_winter_tyre
they look the business if nothing else.

I have got them in 185/65R15 size. The missus car usually has 195/60R15 fitted but playing with the sizes helped the price and selection available.

The new ones will be better a bit narrower and the higher section (5%) should be cancelled by the reduction in width as they are linked.

Hell yes they work.

I commute 450miles/week and after last winter I had Hancook Winter i*cept evo tyres (all they could get during half-term) fitted locally through blackcircles.com, fitted for £240. Economy has dropped by about 10%, but they immediately struck me as so much more confident in the wet and through standing water. Got to try them for the first time through snow and on ice... I was flabbergasted at the difference. Straight up the hill behind our village, straight past all the abandoned cars at the bottom.

I note that Kwik-fit have started selling them over the last week or so, and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't run out of stock soon; local one (was there today as Mrs hh needed an urgent MOT) fitted nine sets on Sunday.

Aside from those that have driven overseas... who even knew you could buy different tyres for winter until last year? 🙂

I'm not poo-pooing them at all, I can just see why most people won't fit them, one of them being expense - the vast majority of motorists don't have a mountain-bike-forum-dwellers disposable income. In the last 20 years, 15 of them in scotland, 4 in the highlands - snow and ice have stopped only me going where I want to go twice. If contracts work out as they might this year then I've got three months of 5am winter starts on hilly ungritted roads so theres a good chance I might buy some. But I'm quite amused by winter tyres selling out as everyone rushes to prepare for last winter 🙂

I had GT Champiro WT AX fitted yesterday (bought from mytyres and only the front 2,grrrr but that's another story) and the difference is huge. From needing 5 guys to push me all the way up the hill from work the day before and barely making it out of my estate, it now drives with only the odd slip. This is in snow deep enough to scrape the underneath of the car all the time !

The ability to keep going is great but the benefits in steering/braking are equally important. My only regret is that I didn't order and fit them sooner.

I'm not poo-pooing them at all, I can just see why most people won't fit them, one of them being expense - the vast majority of motorists don't have a mountain-bike-forum-dwellers disposable income.

Tyres are a consumable item, whether they're normal or winter; if you're not using one you're using the other - have the set they removed in the shed and they'll get put on next year, and vice versa. As someone pointed out above, they should last longer over the colder period as the rubber is more durable at lower temperatures. All I'm really paying for is getting them changed over.

thinking about this for my transporter van is it the done thing to do all four or just the front?

HH - that means nothing to most people though I'm afraid - don't forget we're weird. We've got sheds for one thing.

I'm getting a couple of Lassa snow tyres fitted on Thursday to the Focus. I think part of the problem is that most budget tyres have a radial tread that has a lower rolling resistance and a harder compound for better fuel economy and thus lower emissions (and no GRIP.)I blame the Green Lobby! 70 quid each fitted, I will take them off in the spring and keep them for next year. Small price to pay for peace of mind.

the vast majority of motorists don't have a mountain-bike-forum-dwellers disposable income.

Nonk - assuming your van is FWD just fitting them to the front will be a big improvement. Only problem you might find is if your van has ABS on all 4 wheels or just one axle you might have issues due to the grip being different front and back.

Its thick snow at work/outside the house and its not shifting for a while. -6c at work when i left and its going to drop to -20c in some places over the next few days.

why would i put a tyre thats the equivalent of a racin ****in ralph on my car in snow when i can have these on it?!

http://photos-by-martin.digimig.co.uk/c1919513.html

oh yes. they work,and its not just the tread pattern.I can get on quite well at very slow speed on summer tyres but this is a diffrent league when it comes to stopping and accelerating.

I had some Vredesteins snow tyres on a Mk2 Escort many years ago and was the only car to get of the valley we lived.

Now got some Vredestein Snotwrac 3 (sic) = AWESOME. I did all last winter without using chains and it's quite steep getting to the top of the village.

I have a set of Vredestein Quatrac 3's whilst not a full on winter tyre, they are alot better than the Conti's that i used before. I needed tyres in December last year and they were the only "winter" ish tyres i could get. Have since done c20k on them and they still have plenty of life in them. If my car wasn't 11 years old i might think about dedicated winter tyres next time, but i suspect the car might die soon.

I'll add my 2p. I have fitted winter tyres (Hankook Icept Evo) to my TDI Audi A2. It is the only car in the street that has not got stuck on the nearby hills at some point, and when I tried to use it to tow a focus up the hill, it got about half way - an old (non-diff lock) Defender with mud tyres tried and only pulled it about quater way up! They are seriously impressive, so much so that my partner is fitting them to her car too next year. They are sold out everywhere now...

I dunno if they're worth it

After over 30 years of driving in & around Northern England [40K mls/year] I've only been stuck twice & both times it was because a truck had jack-knifed blocking the road

I think mrmo has it nailed! Vredestein Quatrac 3 are proper 4 season tyres. Maybe even m+s rated?

Anyways - maybe he was lucky enough to have to buy tyres in December so snow was in the back of his mind. Or he lives in the highlands?

The rest of us buy tyres from Jan - Nov and just live with whatever wide low profile stuff comes on our new cars, or get whatever branded stuff kwik fit etc happen to have in stock without asking about snow / winter.

Then we get stuck in the snow. So we start a what tyres thread, buy even more tyres, need a shed to store them in, and a torque wrench to make sure they're on ok.....

Gosh - that sounds like mountain bikers!

Still - I was out tonight digging out a neighbours car. He saw me drive off this morning in 8" snow (on winter tyres - he didnt know) with no fuss - thought I was mad but decided to try himself. His car was blocking the road 5 foot from his house all day 'til I rumbled back up the hill tonight.

However when the current tyres die I might buy some 'all season - m&s' like the Quatrac's (if I can get them in size) and see how I get on year round.

either fit 4 winter tyres or dont bother.
if you only fit to the front cos your FWD, the rear of the car/van will break traction prior to the front leading to a spin. if you fit to the rear only youll stay in a straight line but gain no grip to get moving.

the Quatracs are m&s rated, they have the little picture of a mountain and snowflake on the side, not actually sure what that means though.

I was commuting between Cheltenham and Chester and thought it would make sense to replace the barely legal Contis with something a bit more suitable for 6 months of winter commuting, remember December last year wasn't tropical in mid wales, i got bored of the M6 after a couple of trips so started using more scenic routes. Quatracs were what i could get, and have done the job.

Fitted Quatrac 3's on the old Passat estate I bought a while ago, it had some really bad no name things on there. Lived in Canada for a year and ran winter tyres all year round with no problems so did a bit of research and figured i'd try the Vredstein here, wanted something to allow me to drive pretty much everywhere muddy roads, and dirt tracks etc. they've been great in all weathers and they were great today on snowy ungritted back roads around Surrey hills, unfortunately it was everyone else that got stuck and stopped me moving.

I had a set of Nokian WR G2s put on my Mondeo a couple of weekends ago. Obviously I've not had them very long but they've been very good in the cold and dry of the last few weeks and were remarkable on the way home tonight in the snow/slush/wet.
None of my local fitters could get hold of them, or any of the other highly rated winter tyres so I got them from [url= http://www.tyres-pneus-online.co.uk/ ]Pneus Online[/url] and had them fitted at my local fitter.
I'm quite looking forward to driving to work tomorrow in the frozen snow!

unfortunately it was everyone else that got stuck and stopped me moving.

Bosh. Precisely why I haven't bothered.

I asked my dad to pick up some part worn snow tyres off ebay for me that were local to him at the start of last week, and he told me off for being tight. What he didn't seem to understand is I don't do many miles, and I didn't want tyres lying around the garage all year. Now all the prices have gone ballistic.

Not that it matters as I'm stuck offshore.

unfortunately it was everyone else that got stuck and stopped me moving.

Bosh. Precisely why I haven't bothered.

Typical fatalistic British sheep mentality - other people get stuck, so I may as well join them.

Me, I like to at least attempt to not be the one that blocks the road, and may even be the one that hauls your ass out the ditch.

[url= http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid83090674001?bctid=79566968001 ]I'd say yes on this basis.....[/url]

despite having driven round the Scottish Highlands a lot in the last 20 years - in all sorts of desperate conditions, I'll sheepishly put my hand up and say that I've just been converted to the benefits of winter tyres after having had a set fitted to my wifes car over the weekend. Stunning levels of grip compared to the decent summer tyres that were on it.

Oh and for storage, KwikFit will keep the summer ones for you - £45 per season IIRC,

either fit 4 winter tyres or dont bother.

If you have a front wheel drive car with winter tyres on the front and the back end goes there is a good chance of counter steering to prevent a spin. If you've got more traction with the driving and steering wheels you will have a more controllable car even if the back wheels have "normal" tyres still. That's an assertion based on experience.

Classic example of supply and demand with Mytyres.

I bought a set of GT Champiros 8 days ago for £67.50 each delivered. Today they are £109.40 😯

either fit 4 winter tyres or dont bother.

nonsense

If you have a front wheel drive car with winter tyres on the front and the back end goes there is a good chance of counter steering to prevent a spin. If you've got more traction with the driving and steering wheels you will have a more controllable car even if the back wheels have "normal" tyres still. That's an assertion based on experience.

I will hazard a guess I have more even more experience and I'll agree with nwilko.

Winter front / summer back is :
1. Cheap
2. Fun
3. Very, very scary.

It's fine uphill, really pretty dangerous downhill.

I gather it's not just that we use all-season tyres not winter tyres... More that most people fit fairly fair-weather tyres. We want economy, low noise, long life...

My brother spent the other day first putting the winter tyres on his little diesel Combi, then merrilly pulling stuck 4x4s on road tyres out of the warehouse unit he rents Not got a set myself but thinking about it, I'll take any edge I can get. I wouldn't ride in winter on small blocks...

Monk

I've got a Transporter and have only fitted them to the front and only bought cheapo ones at that.

Last night on the way home it meant i could get off the main roads and still take shortcuts. Plus when i got home i could drive up the short hill to my house and park on my empty street!

Typical fatalistic British sheep mentality - other people get stuck, so I may as well join them.

Me, I like to at least attempt to not be the one that blocks the road, and may even be the one that hauls your ass out the ditch.

missed the point entirely.

the only times in the last 17yrs since I passed my test I have ever got stopped in snow + ice, its been because of stuck lorrys + vans. winter tyres wouldn't wouldn't have magically evaporated the traffic jam in front of me.

Another example of MyTyres bumping up the price. I bought some Hankook Optimo 4S all season tyres last friday for £64 each they were £122 each on Monday morning.

My wifes car has winter on all four wheels but two winters ago she just had the front two wheels on winter tyres and that does make a massive difference. Just treat everything with caution but you will have the grip to go where you want.

Winter tyres lose their snow benefit at 4mm of grip but they start out life with about 10mm don't buy part worn tyres off ebay.

Winter tyres lose their snow benefit at 4mm of grip but they start out life with about 10mm don't buy part worn tyres off ebay.

The ones I picked up with 5mm of tread left have made a huge difference, thanks.

Live update!!

Making my way home across a snow covered/car jammed city (Bradford) my snow Tyres have meant I have been able to take all the side street short cuts.

Can't do owt about nobs who forget how traffic lights and roundabouts work...
I'm still stuck in jams on the main drag but it helps and means as other people spin put I drive safely past.

Just put some on the classifieds, 195 65 R14's on wheels to fit Peugeot/Ford 4 stud 8)

Winter tyres lose their snow benefit at 4mm of grip but they start out life with about 10mm don't buy part worn tyres off ebay.

I think the reason that loads of part worns are on ebay is that in some countries there is a legal limit of 6mm for winter tyres.
Yes they probably lose their effectiveness in thick snow, but for most of the stuff we encounter they are still going to be far better than summer tyres. They still have wider grooves/softer compound/sipes in the blocks etc.

And yes, MyTyres are responding to the demand. Considered getting some new winter tyres from them that were at £88.20. Looked the next day, thinking I'd more than likely buy a set and they were up at £108.20.....

I'm watching some part worns on eBay, but they aren't the right size & will put my speedo out by 5% so not sure whether to get them or not.

Part worn tyres will still give you a benefit but you may get one winter of use for two thirds of the price after fitting. Buy new and they will last three years.

Autocar comparison;

[url= http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/do-winter-tyres-work-video/ ]Autocar test[/url]

My winter tyres worked fantastically this morning. 8 miles of twisting, hilly Hampshire B roads with up to 8 inches of fresh and compacted snow dealt with superbly. ABS didn't kick in at all and no wheelspin. Some sliding about in and out of ruts left by other cars but nothing scary. Being a seasoned MTBer definitely helps with driving in snow 🙂

I know they were only making a generalised point in the Autocar test but surely it couldn't have been [b]that[/b] difficult to find 2 cars that shared a little more in common than a badge and RWD 🙄

either fit 4 winter tyres or dont bother.

nonsense

If you have a front wheel drive car with winter tyres on the front and the back end goes there is a good chance of counter steering to prevent a spin. If you've got more traction with the driving and steering wheels you will have a more controllable car even if the back wheels have "normal" tyres still. That's an assertion based on experience.

think about it,
your front tyres being snow/ winter will always have more grip than youre rear normal tyres. The rears have lost traction and the cars now spinning, counter steering the front will not increase the friction between the rear wheel that has no traction, you cant apply power to the rear wheen to get it rotating at the vehicles speed as the fronts are the driven wheels.. Front wheel drive cars are deisgned with understeer as its safer, the premise being you use the correct amount of speed for the road conditions in the 1st place, if you loose the back end your boned with FWD (unless you think driving like a rally driver is appropriate for the public road)..
If you put your better tyres on the rear it will be less likely to break traction than the front hence safer (the steering wheel acts at the front), but you will need to drive at a speed that keeps traction at the front IE slow the hell down. If you want to drive safety on snow / ice and keep traction fit 4 snow tyres. Danger with winter tyres at front and FWD is you get traction to reach a nice high speed in a straight line then turn in to find the rear has no grip and exit the corner backwards.
Ive driven on snow extensively in the arctic cirle & Northern Ontario with normal tyres, specific winter tyres and also studded tyres fitted to all 4 wheels on high powered RWD saloons, FWD hatchbacks and lumbering 4x4's in each case the driver needs to slow down. Finally try taking skid pan course and get the instructor to just break traction at the rear (needs a rig)and see what you can do to recover in a FWD car, its all a big mess in your pants by then.

nwilko

I agree with that and having had only winter tyres fitted to the front of my FWD car for the past couple of days I can confirm that it takes a loooooong time to correct once the back end goes + the ABS kicks in on the first tyre to lose traction making braking only marginally better.

Thankfully I got the rear winters last night which are being fitted now. Without the fronts on however, I seriously doubt I would have even made it to the garage.

this is valid IMO
Two snow tyres will keep you mobile, but if you want to drive any distance at any speed you really are better off with four.
Go to a carpark, drive at moderate speed then hit the brakes on even a slight bend. This will simulate coming round a corner to find a car coming the other way a bit wide. Then go and buy the other two snow tyres 🙂

I have FWD and winter tyres only on the front (still waiting for the other two) and the amount of traction on steeps hills is amazing. Completely missed the 'car park' around Bradford last night by staying high. Yes the snow was deeper but never a moment of hesitation. Even climbed a very steep hill which was 'impassable' according to the radio 😀

nwilko is right about normal tyres on the rear. You do have to slow right down before making a turn otherwise the backend slides away. A couple of times I had to correct slightly. Going down I just used 1st or 2nd and let the engine do the braking.

Just wish I'd bought some last winter.

can't be arsed to read all of that but here in Scandinavia everyone uses them and they make a really big difference.

Nokian WR G2s on my Subaru. Fantastic, managed to get to work today for the first time since Monday while everyone else near me who has anything less than a Defender is stuck at home.

Would have made it in yesterday as well but ground clearance became the problem instead.

£64 a corner when I got them on Friday, currently £168 😀

Regarding the front wheels only/all four wheels debate this vid seems to show even less control under heavy braking and cornering with winter tyres only on the front than just leaving 4 all season tyres on.

nwilko, I certainly can't compete with your winter driving experience and since I am a firm believe in experience being more important than theory I'm on a hiding-to-nothing with this, BUT your argument for "why" simply does not stack up. You're suggesting a car that starts to spin with non-winter tyres on the rear cannot be recovered OR I have totally missed your point.

Forget the argument about different tyres on front and back for a moment. If the back end goes on a FWD car it is because it has lost traction and counter-steering can correct it because it allows the rear wheels to find traction again. Many of us on here will have had to do that at some stage and not necessarily in winter. If you have 4 winter tyres on and the rear end breaks lose, what do you do? Counter steer. There's simply no difference in what you have to do. A tyre losing traction is a tyre losing traction.

Winter tyres on the front allow you to get around much more easily than no winter tyres on. They don't give you carte-blanche to drive "normally" and I agree you need to be careful on the bends AND know what to do if it all goes wrong. I would rather be moving carefully than just be stuck not going anywhere at all.

as for this...

unless you think driving like a rally driver is appropriate for the public road

Regardless of what I'm driving and with what wheels, if I need to drive like a rally driver to avoid a spin/crash/accident then of course I will. If more people on our UK roads knew some of those skills we wouldn't come to a standstill at the first sign of the white stuff...

...and of course if they put FOUR winter tyres on 😉

[img] [/img]

One of my Nokian WR G2s today, just to show all the extra sipes in the tread blocks, and the impression left in the snow. I know, I'm a geek!

nwilko, I certainly can't compete with your winter driving experience and since I am a firm believe in experience being more important than theory I'm on a hiding-to-nothing with this, BUT your argument for "why" simply does not stack up. You're suggesting a car that starts to spin with non-winter tyres on the rear cannot be recovered OR I have totally missed your point.

Forget the argument about different tyres on front and back for a moment. If the back end goes on a FWD car it is because it has lost traction and counter-steering can correct it because it allows the rear wheels to find traction again. Many of us on here will have had to do that at some stage and not necessarily in winter. If you have 4 winter tyres on and the rear end breaks lose, what do you do? Counter steer. There's simply no difference in what you have to do. A tyre losing traction is a tyre losing traction.

Winter tyres on the front allow you to get around much more easily than no winter tyres on. They don't give you carte-blanche to drive "normally" and I agree you need to be careful on the bends AND know what to do if it all goes wrong. I would rather be moving carefully than just be stuck not going anywhere at all.

as for this...

unless you think driving like a rally driver is appropriate for the public road

Regardless of what I'm driving and with what wheels, if I need to drive like a rally driver to avoid a spin/crash/accident then of course I will. If more people on our UK roads knew some of those skills we wouldn't come to a standstill at the first sign of the white stuff...

...and of course if they put FOUR winter tyres on

final comment,
if youve got winters on the front and normal on the rear the car has grip/traction biased towards the front, if the snow & ice can only offer a fixed amount of friction you will always reach the point where the rears loose traction before the front, how can you reverse this relationship once the rears are sliding, more braking will increase the spin, more throttle will potentially straighten the car and increase speed which means you now cant get round the corner that caused you to loose the back in the 1st place.
Counter steering / steering where you wish to go is valid for recoving from a skid but is more suited to RWD.
The reason youve lost the rear on that corner was that 2weeks ago you fitted winters on the front with oodles of traction that got you moving too fast for the amount of grip your rears can generate, kaboom hello ditch/tree....
FWD with winters only on front is similar to lift off oversteer in a 911, a knife-edge..

Re sheet ice the only thing that works is studded tyres that can bite, but these are destroyed on dry tarmac and destroy the road surface + creating dust/health issues.

re second hand winters if the sipes (multiple cracks if you like) on each tread block are not present (their not full depth of each tread block) the winter tyre has massively reduced grip than compared to its new state, (you may be wasting your money)..

Why do you only put snowchains on the front on FWD vehicle then?