[Closed] Smoking is a pretty disgusting habit, but...

If this could be dealt with easily in beer gardens by a friendly "would you mind putting that out or moving elsewhere, we'd quite like to enjoy our beer and meal without those toxic fumes" chat it would be great, but that's more likely to get you a mouthful of abuse or a f-off than anything else

I've got to ask... what kind of pubs do you go to? Perhaps you should consider going to nicer ones? Try and avoid the ones with a flat roof

[img] [/img]

Would be an interesting experiment...

Get someone to go to a number of pubs, sit themselves down on a table next to some smokers and ask them politely if they could stop so you can enjoy your pint/food, then categorize responses as follows:

A> apologetic compliance "so sorry! I'll put it out right now"
B> grumbling and muttering but put it out
C> tell you to "do one" but in a polite manner
D> tell you to "do one" in an impolite manner
E> get punchy

I bet you the overwhelming majority of responses would fall in the C->E range, if you're lucky you might get a few B's and the occasional A.

...and I'd take that bet most would be A.

And you know what, that's one bet I would be happy to lose. And I'm sure the vast majority of the nice people on STW would be an A, but STW isn't exactly representative of the general public.

bet that's a cracking pub, don't judge a book by it's cover! 😆

I bet you the overwhelming majority of responses would fall in the C->E range, if you're lucky you might get a few B's and the occasional A.

You really do need to drink in better pubs.

[b]sit themselves down on a table next to some smokers[/b] and ask them politely if they could stop so you can enjoy your pint/food, then categorize responses as follows:

Do you think that going and plonking yourself down next to a smoker and immediately requesting they extinguish their cigarette might, just possibly be construed as .... you know... a bit unreasonable? Maybe just a bit arrogant?

Have you actually been to many pubs?

Yes they used that line too when there was talk of banning it inside pubs.

And it was equally as legitimate back then.

You can dig up any figures you want but the original smoking ban destroyed the pub trade in the village I lived in. The weekday business dried up over night.

I bet you the overwhelming majority of responses would fall in the C->E range, if you're lucky you might get a few B's and the occasional A.

With science like that why even conduct such experiment?

Speaking as an occasional smoker who sometimes frequents beer gardens I personally wouldn't (and don't) choose to sit next to someone who is eating, I normally choose a far corner whatever.

If someone decided to bring their food to sit next to me and then asked me to put my fag out I wouldn't have a problem. I might silently question their politeness in choosing to sit next to me, only to then ask me to cease some of my enjoyment to facilitate theirs. I might realise they had no choice as all other tables are full. Depends. Also depends on their attitude. But I'd be polite and put it out in most situations, no question if they seem genuinely polite. It's all about respect isn't it, it goes two ways.

One thing I am sure of is that your experiment is fraught with even more variables than assumptions. Some people can catch a whiff of smoke from 20 metres away and turn into raging Keith Pratt, yet have no trouble queuing for ten minutes by a smokey BBQ. There is evidently a social stigma attached to smoking, and plenty of prejudice/stereotyping which has quite frankly surprised me here today, even by STW standards 😯

binners, do the pubs you frequent still have sawdust floors and spitoons?

Yes they used that line too when there was talk of banning it inside pubs.
And it was equally as legitimate back then.
You can dig up any figures you want but the original smoking ban destroyed the pub trade in the village I lived in. The weekday business dried up over night.

Laws change for various reasons.
Sometimes the change benefits some businesses. Some times it has a negative effect. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have made the law in the first place. I put people's health over profit myself.

amedias - Member
Would be an interesting experiment...

Get someone to go to a number of pubs, sit themselves down on a table next to some smokers and ask them politely if they could stop so you can enjoy your pint/food, then categorize responses as follows:

A> apologetic compliance "so sorry! I'll put it out right now"
B> grumbling and muttering but put it out
C> tell you to "do one" but in a polite manner
D> tell you to "do one" in an impolite manner
E> get punchy

I bet you the overwhelming majority of responses would fall in the C->E range, if you're lucky you might get a few B's and the occasional A.

Do you think that going and plonking yourself down next to a smoker and immediately requesting they extinguish their cigarette might, just possibly be construed as .... you know... a bit unreasonable? Maybe just a bit arrogant?

One thing I am sure of is that your experiment is fraught with more variables than your assumptions.

I did say as an experiment! I did't say it was a good one 😉

On the face of it I'd say it depends if there's other available places to sit, but no I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the person doing something unpleasant and harmful in social area to stop it if other people trying to also use the space don't want to be impacted by it.

based on your comments about picking a nicer pub, I'm assuming even if some unreasonable arrogant person did that to you you'd be an A?

Does that not just confirm that its the right, considerate thing to do? don't see how you can be both an A and consider the request unreasonable. If you thought it was unreasonable you'd surely be a B 😉

Speaking as an occasional smoker who sometimes frequents beer gardens I personally wouldn't (and don't) choose to sit next to someone who is eating, I normally choose a far corner whatever.

If someone decided to bring their food to sit next to me and then asked me to put my fag out I wouldn't have a problem. I might silently question their politeness in choosing to sit next to me, only to then ask me to cease some of my enjoyment to facilitate theirs. I might realise they had no choice as all other tables are full. Depends. Also depends on their attitude. But I'd be polite and put it out in most situations, no question if they seem genuinely polite. It's all about respect isn't it, it goes two ways.

Exactly my point from earlier, you're a nice considerate person who can consider the impact on others and act considerately.

But as we've already noted, regulation comes in because not everyone is as considerate as you and Binners may be, and you can't ban inconsiderateness.

To be honest I wouldn't sit down next to a group of smokers if I could avoid it, and if I couldn't avoid it I'd probably go to another pub or place to eat, only if I'd already ordered and it was the only place to sit would I consider asking someone to stop, and I'd like to think I'd be able to do it politely too, in fact I'd feel embarrassed to have to ask.

amedias - Member
Do you think that going and plonking yourself down next to a smoker and immediately requesting they extinguish their cigarette might, just possibly be construed as .... you know... a bit unreasonable? Maybe just a bit arrogant?
I did say as an experiment!

On the face of it I'd say it depends if there's other available places to sit, but no I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the person doing something unpleasant and harmful in social area to stop it if other people trying to also use the space don't want to be impacted by it.

based on your comments about picking a nicer pub, I'm assuming even if some unreasonable arrogant person did that to you you'd be an A?

Does that not just confirm that its the right, considerate thing to do? don't see how you can be both an A and consider the request unreasonable. If you thought it was unreasonable you'd surely be a B

My fave Pub "like in the Whole Wide World" has a no smoking ban inside (clearly has too) and a Landlord optional outside one too. Has to be the best place, like eva.
It ain't because there aren't any "faggers", nope it's simply because it's a bloody lovely place and sells it's own exceptional beer.

Some of the locals are nice too... and I guess some of those smoke, just not here.

the right thing to do is respect the first come first serve rule, not invade someones space and start dictating etiquette.

I'd argue the right thing to do is to respect the health and environment of those around you.

Or does the smoker that got there 'first' trump the other people that arrive after, regardless of number?

It's one of those things you just shouldn't inflict upon others without their permission.

I think I'm starting to see why you may perceive pubs as a more hostile environment than most people do.

I think I'm starting to see why you may perceive pubs as a more hostile environment than most people do.

Not at all, the discussion has just focussed on pubs/beer gardens though hasn't it because it's one of the last places where people can smoke in close proximity to others, and with food and drink around, hence the friction. Outside dining areas were also mentioned but there seems to be less outrage about that?

It's not the environment that's hostile at all, it's the inconsiderate people who make that environment unpleasant for non-smokers.

Parks I think is a different matter entirely as you don't have the forced close proximity aspect, and it's not part of a purchased service like at a pub.

If anything you should be more outraged at the comments about making smoking "abnormal" and demonising it, which is something you'll have noted I've made no comment about as I don't really agree with it, and I'm not in favour of total bans or anything like that. I think you should be able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't impact on other people or affect their health so directly.

Those of us getting uppity about pubs and such are doing on the health and enjoyment grounds of that [i]specific[/i] environment, and that's more easily argued as having genuine merit especially where food and drink are concerned.

amedias - Member
the right thing to do is respect the first come first serve rule, not invade someones space and start dictating etiquette.
I'd argue the right thing to do is to respect the health and environment of those around you.

Or does the smoker that got there 'first' trump the other people that arrive after, regardless of number?

It's one of those things you just shouldn't inflict upon others without their permission.

But as we've already noted, regulation comes in because not everyone is as considerate as you and Binners may be, and you can't ban inconsiderateness.

Don't we have speed limits for the same reason?

I suspect you may well expect a number of E)'s in your life if that's your view!

maybe, but if you think the right response to someone asking you to be considerate to other people around you who are sharing the same space is to get punchy then I'm not surprised you think that.

And you might have missed my other comments about how I'd consider that a last resort.

To be honest I wouldn't sit down next to a group of smokers if I could avoid it, and if I couldn't avoid it I'd probably go to another pub or place to eat, only if I'd already ordered and it was the only place to sit would I consider asking someone to stop, and I'd like to think I'd be able to do it politely too, in fact I'd feel embarrassed to have to ask

I know quite a few people who don't go to pubs nowadays in the summer as you can't sit outside without having cigarette smoke around you all the time

Presumably these (fictional) people had never been in a pub before the smoking ban ?

I know quite a few people who don't go to pubs nowadays in the summer as you can't sit outside without having cigarette smoke around you all the time

Sounds like you know some fun, ceraaaaaaaazy people. Must be party time time round their non-pub-attending houses on a weekend.

Do they often burst into tears or hide underneath furniture for no apparent reason?

Presumably these (fictional) people had never been in a pub before the smoking ban ?

They're not fictional, I'm one, and so are a few other people I know, and my fiancée is very wary of it due to her Asthma. She can't go running in the evenings for most of the week surrounding bonfire night due to smoke in the air setting her off, and we actively try and avoid places where smoke may be an issue.

The smoking ban coming in actually made going to the pub a much more frequent and enjoyable thing for us, and pubs don't seem any less busy for it, just nicer places to be in general.

Presumably these (fictional) people had never been in a pub before the smoking ban ?

They probably had to sit shivering in the beer garden because of the stinking smokers inside. Fictional?

EDIT: Ah, I see amedias has explained that they're not fictional at all. You ought to try and be a little less presumptuous.

amedias - Member
I suspect you may well expect a number of E)'s in your life if that's your view!
maybe, but if you think the right response to someone asking you to be considerate to other people around you who are sharing the same space is to get punchy then I'm not surprised you think that.

That wouldn't be my reaction at all. I'd judge whether a thought you were sound or a dick(this would be decided on how you asked me) and then decide whether I wanted to be nice to you or not after that.

Your complete unawareness of [u]your[/u] ignorance is astounding though.

I'm currently sat in my local cafe bar with dd snoozing in his buggy. There's a pint of Gem on the table. There are a few smokers sat outside on the terrace with a view of our classy high street with its charity shops, hairdressers, nail salons and chippies. It's a busy road with plenty of slow moving traffic so I suppose they're breathing in the shite from that too. And it's raining. Frankly, it's what they deserve.

Given the amount it costs, what is does to your health whilst on the planet, that you are likely to exit the planet early in a horrible way, that the majority of potential partners now wouldn't be interested in you because of your habit and the public at large finds you socially unacceptable because of your habit I've come to the conclusion that to be a smoker as an adult in 2015 you have to have a bit of a mental health problem.

No. Addiction does strange things to the minds of otherwise normal people.

*phones social services*

I'd judge whether a thought you were sound or a dick(this would be decided on how you asked me) and then decide whether I wanted to be nice to you or not after that.

See that must be where we differ. It's not a [i]decision [/i]I'd have to make, I would be nice and considerate to the people around me regardless.

I can understand how you might be able to reconcile the impact vs reward of being a smoker yourself, but I can't honestly understand how people can come to the conclusion that its acceptable or appropriate to inflict it on other people against their wishes in a shared space.

Given the amount it costs, what is does to your health whilst on the planet, that you are likely to exit the planet early in a horrible way, that the majority of potential partners now wouldn't be interested in you because of your habit and the public at large finds your habit socially unacceptable I've come to the conclusion that to be a [s]smoker[/s] cyclist as an adult in 2015 you have to have a bit of a mental health problem.

🙂

I'm currently sat in my local cafe bar with dd snoozing in his buggy.

Does DD know you're using his login while he's asleep? Who are you anyway?

[img] [/img]

vaping - I don't want to smell or inhale that shite - so sod off to the same place as the smokers.

Really? My wife vapes (0% nicotine) - are you really saying that the barely distinguishable vapourising scent of water and vegetable-based toffee or melon drifting across the breeze* is equal to nicotine smoke, not to mention more alarming/offensive and injurious to you and yours than the stink and carcinogens from (variously):

the pub BBQ?
The frying oil and grease from the kitchens?
the road?
the pub car park?
the diesel particulates from the trucks that delivered your imported food?
your deodorant?

I call troll...

* I can't even smell it 90% of the time indoors, sitting right next, neither in the car. When I do I say 'oh...toffee'? The thought of even detecting it outdoors let alone finding it offensive takes a lot of work tbh. The vapour is gone by the time it travels a few feet.

...I would be nice and considerate to the people around me regardless.

That's where it differs for smokers - their consideration ship has sailed years ago - the utter lack of self-respect they display is a good indicator for how to expect them to behave towards anybody else.

amedias - Member
See that must be where we differ. It's not a decision I'd have to make, I would be nice and considerate to the people around me regardless.

Usually I agree, but if someones treating me with contempt, they get treated equally! Like i say it'd depend how you asked.

As Figure 8 shows, the UK’s smoking bans correlate more closely with the collapse in pub numbers than any other factor,

So this figure then?

[img] [/img]

It's not exactly conclusive is it? Amazing to think that the smoking ban caused such a huge drop in pub numbers 25 years before it was introduced.

I'm talking about a certain type of preachy, whiney, sanctimonious type - the professional moaner - who thinks its appalling that the should have their enjoyment of the pub ruined by smokers, yet they never actually go to the pub anyway. probably because they've got no friends.

Oi. I'm a preachy, whiney, sanctimonious, moaner and I go to the pub every Thursday. And if the weather holds I'll be sat in the beer garden tonight.

Does DD know you're using his login while he's asleep? Who are you anyway?

😀

You should see him asleep in his buggy the little thing. Butter wouldn't melt...

deadlydarcy - Member
...I would be nice and considerate to the people around me regardless.
That's where it differs for smokers - their consideration ship has sailed years ago - the utter lack of self-respect they display is a good indicator for how to expect them to behave towards anybody else.

their consideration ship has sailed years ago - the utter lack of self-respect they display is a good indicator for how to expect them to behave towards anybody else.

For a practical demonstration of the consideration for others exhibited by many smokers, just glance at the floor of a given public space and count the cigarette butts.

They're not fictional, I'm one

Although now I'm wondering why you didnt say that in the first place.

"I know some people who don't go to pubs anymore because of the smoke.... Hang on a minute... Who are they? ..... Oh yes of course, it's [b]me[/b]. How silly of me to forget"

🙂

It's health and safety gone mad. There's way too many sensitive souls around these days. What's gonna happen on big nights out? Surely everyone smokes on a big night out, even if you're not a smoker!

Hurrah graphs at last,about bloody time.

Although now I'm wondering why you didnt say that in the first place.

"I know some people who don't go to pubs anymore because of the smoke.... Hang on a minute... Who are they? ..... Oh yes of course, it's me. How silly of me to forget"

E? I wasn't the one that first made the comment, I was responding/supporting to the person who did when you suggested it was fiction

[b]robdob[/b] - Member

Hope they do ban it everywhere round pubs. I used to smoke but can't stand the smell now, while I am eating it is especially nasty thing. [b]I know quite a few people who don't go to pubs nowadays[/b] in the summer as you can't sit outside without having cigarette smoke around you all the time

[b]nealglover [/b]- Member
Presumably these (fictional) people had never been in a pub before the smoking ban ?

[b]amedias [/b]- Member

They're not fictional, I'm one

*Disclaimer - It just occurred to me that only tend to frequent either quiet polite rural pubs with big beer gardens or else uproarious piratical seaside outposts where everyone smokes all manner of stuff in a breeze - so a lot of my experiences might not echo those who frequent congested pubs in and around cities.

ymmv, but I think cities themselves are stinky, congested, dangerous and poisonous places - and we should defintely think about banning cities before picking on outdoor smokers around rural pubs. Fairdoos? 😉

You should see him asleep in his buggy the little thing. Butter wouldn't melt...

So you get over excited about people daring to smoke in areas that they are allowed to smoke in yet take your child to these areas and consume alcohol while you're at it? I imagine you must hate yourself.

Hurrah graphs at last,about bloody time.

😆

Actually [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/smoking-is-a-pretty-disgusting-habit-but/page/3#post-7105084 ]irc cited that graph on Page 3[/url]. I just thought I'd pull it out for those who couldn't be bothered reading the PDF.

*Disclaimer - It just occurred to me that only tend to frequent either quiet polite rural pubs with big beer garden

This is the "beer garden" at one of my locals (a quiet polite rural pub):

[img] [/img]

It's very nice - but not exactly huge.

Nonsense tbh. When I smoke i'm usually quite aware of others around me and try to minimize their impact. Example it's not usuaul for me to get up and walk away from the table if i'm sitting in a beer garden. You're generalising too much.

He's not the only one, you're generalising and assuming most smokers are as considerate as you, some are, but there's a heck of a lot who aren't.

To be honest, as a smoker, even a considerate one, you're not best placed to judge the impact it has on non-smokers.

If there's one generalisation I'm happy to be caught making it's that smokers are often blind to the extent it affects the people around them.

Anyway, I'll look forward to catching up on this thread when I get home later, I expect more graphs, and generalisations, lots of generalisations! toodle pip!

ymmv, but I think cities themselves are stinky, congested, dangerous and poisonous places - and we should defintely think about banning cities before picking on outdoor smokers around rural pubs. Fairdoos?

The problem with cities is rural dwellers commuting in their big stinky cars. I'd prefer it if you all did a reverse Dick Whittington and eff-off back to your amenity-free dormitories.

This is the "beer garden" at one of my locals (a quiet polite rural pub):

If you're describing The Ship as quiet and polite then you must not be able to hear the Karaoke from your street!

I haven't read through the six pages of discussion but surely the answer here is to allow pub/bars to choose if they want smoking in their beer gardens.
Therefore you would have smoking pubs and health club pubs (David Hockney reference there) who maybe also could have running machines in the beer gardens.
You could also have bouncy castle pubs were children are only allowed in the beer garden.

It's very nice - but not exactly huge.

Those ashtray are bloody huge! Point taken. If smokers can't police themselves effectively around non-smokers in a fairly confined space then they deserve at least not to be encouraged.

So you get over excited about people daring to smoke in areas that they are allowed to smoke in yet take your child to these areas and consume alcohol while you're at it? I imagine you must hate yourself.

😆

I think you need to get rid of that erection first. When you're less excited at having something to post about and are feeling a little more aware, let me know. 😉

The problem with cities is rural dwellers commuting in their big stinky cars.

If that were even true then all the more reason to localise and diversify with smaller businesses, smaller self-sustaining communities. But mass pollution isn't the problem here is it...it's an increasingly generalising, conservative/parochial attitude which prefers a catch-all ban-hammer in preference to sorting it out between each other like adults.

If that were even true then all the more reason to localise and diversify with smaller businesses, smaller self-sustaining communities. But mass pollution isn't the problem here is it...?

No, whataboutery is the problem.

Smoking areas are fine, but why do smokers find it acceptable to litter the ground with fag ends. My work has a total smoking ban so the other side boundary fence is fine to smoke in. It is almost ankle deep in fag butts, shame it's also a country park! What I find unacceptable is the disregard smokers have for other users of the places they get their fix in

^ I habitually bury or bin my rollies when smoked, even when walking the dog in the woods. So why do duvet/car/oil/mattress/garden-rubbish/takeaway food users feel that the countryside is the place to dump their fix once they move on to the next?

Maybe when Comrade Jezza gets to power he can ban cigarattes but legalise cannabis instead, then anyone who wants to carry on smoking can at least die with a smile on their face.

wasn't the one that first made the comment

Fair enough, hadn't spotted the names.

But I still have a question, these pubs you no longer visit due to the smoke

Was there ever a time you were a regular?

Because surely, due to smoking bans, and the fact there are an ever decreasing number of smokers in the UK, there has never been a time when a trip to the pub involved LESS smoke than right now.

binners - Member
...We pay shedloads of it on our 20 Bensons a day, we tend to go quickly after a short, horrific illness,..

You're forgetting the decade or so of shortness of breath, inability to walk far, or ride your bike.

And then there's the pain as the rest of your body deteriorates from lack of use - I never want to watch anyone go through that again.

Not all are "fortunate" enough to have a quick death.

But it's all horrific - and unnecessary.

And all the time the smoking addict stinks worse than a horse's arse even when they are not smoking.

What I find unacceptable is the disregard [s]smokers[/s] [i]some people [/i]have for other users of the places they [i]go[/i] [s]get their fix in[/s]

Firstly, it's by no means all smokers.

Secondly, there are many more (and worse) things than cigarette ends dumped all over the place (possibly even by non smokers!)

I'm surprised that on a forum dedicated to a healthy pastime such as cycling, there are so many who like to puff away on a noxious old bit of Indian rubber clobbering the heck out of their alveoli & pumping their blood full of carcinogenic shite???

On the upside it means the trails will be quieter....

...so many

Not many if this thread is anything to go by?

Secondly, there are many more (and worse) things than cigarette ends dumped all over the place (possibly even by non smokers!)

No, in the area I carefullly described it's exclusively butts, the litter goes in the bin, which some how makes it worse. They respect the environment enough to put their paper, including fag packets in the bin but butts Just get dropped + ground into the floor

I thoroughly enjoy tobacco. Very clean. Smoke it all the time

KFC is a disgusting habit.

As you were

Why should non smokers have to eat inside or drink inside because of a few smokers?

On the dying bit- great having a tab but you deny your children their parent too young. Great now but fast forward to your early 50's the news wont be swallowed easily by anyone. Harsh but smoking is selfish in every way imaginable.

No, in the area I carefullly described it's exclusively butts, the litter goes in the bin, which some how makes it worse. They respect the environment enough to put their paper, including fag packets in the bin but butts Just get dropped + ground into the flo

At the entrance to my local hospital (with big - 'this is a no smoking area' signs on the walls) they have made the unusual cost saving measure of replacing the need for bark chippings on the flowerbeds by just sweeping all the dropped butts off the pavement into the bushes. It's a good look.

I've given up feeling annoyed by all the ill looking knobbers dragging their drips out form the wards for a smoke there and just feel sorry for the poor sods now. Kind of the way I feel about homeless people - it's not their fault - just a character flaw, a sign of a weak personality or someone who has been through a rough time.

Smoking is in it's death throws in blighty, we need to start giving alcohol consumption a similar kicking.

I have no problem with people smoking outside as long as they don't let their smoke invade my airspace and force me to breath it.

Twinw4ll, alcohol consumption is fine if its in moderation. Its use in moderation far benefits the population interms of a release than breathing in someones poison.

What do you propose next gambling?

Yes... let's stop everyone smoking and drinking altogether. I'll take it drugs are a real no no

You sound like fun. My.., how the long winter evenings must just fly by!

Council depot just round the corner of my house. They make the filthy stinkies smoke outside the gate and don't even give them a receptacle for their butts. So the road and footpath are covered in them. Like I say, with that little self-respect, one can't expect them to respect somebody else's neighbourhood. I am however, happy to accept that all these are the minority and the rest of them everywhere else are perfectly clean and put their butts in the litter. Just unlucky to have all the minority working round the corner. 😡

twinw4ll - Member
Smoking is in it's death throws in blighty, we need to start giving alcohol consumption a similar kicking.

Yes... let's stop everyone smoking and drinking altogether. I'll take it drugs are a real no no.

No one wants to stop you drinking binners. And you can smoke if you want, just do it in your own house while you're watching Corrie, Emmerdsle and Hollyoaks on catch-up.

deadlydarcy - Member
Yes... let's stop everyone smoking and drinking altogether. I'll take it drugs are a real no no.
No one wants to stop you drinking binners. And you can smoke if you want, just do it in your own house while you're watching Corrie, Emmerdsle and Hollyoaks on catch-up.

Smokers not smoking while drinking, aye that'll catch on.

Plenty of smokers manage it. Maybe the rest just don't have the willpower.

Yes... let's stop everyone smoking and drinking altogether. I'll take it drugs are a real no no

You sound like fun. My.., how the long winter evenings must just fly by!

To be honest you sound like a typical smoker - flinging around a few amusing insults to deflect a bit from (what you know deep down) are your own inadequacies at not being able to stop it. So everyone else must be uncool partypooers because they don't 'get it'. 😉