[Closed] Smoking break vs Time in lieu

I read last year a company in Japan gives its non smokers extra holiday.

Yup. That’s what this firm has done.

Four days holiday though, assuming that smokers take three x 10minute ciggy breaks per day.

It’s been a source of some considerable irritation to me, when I’d be getting nagged for taking a couple of minutes too long over my mid-morning or afternoon break, and I’d see other staff, including supervisors, bunking off for ten minutes every hour or so for a fag, standing around in a little group outside.
If they can take maybe an hour every day for fag breaks, on top of their other tea/coffee and lunch breaks, why can’t I?

people should not be sneaking off for fags. Official breaks only. In quiet times ( occasional!) at my work if the smokers go out the non smokers stop for a cuppa.

i started standing outside with a tin of beer. It was deemed confrontational. I then started drinking alcohol free beer next to the vapers in the office. Again viewed as 'not helpful".

It used to drive me crazy, then the colleague that was doing it too often got his wrists slapped, and instead we all had to deal with his withdrawal symptoms.

We counted one of the worst offenders one day - 14 ciggy breaks of about 15 mins each in one day! (didn't last long after that once the managers realised).

I like the option that its rewarding non-smoking, rather than the other way around.

I don't understand this. I've never worked anywhere where you can go for a smoke break. If it's a day shift, you get a morning break, a lunch break and an afternoon break. You either smoke during these breaks or not. Simple really.

Wait until they give time in lieu for not visiting here.

I don’t understand this. I’ve never worked anywhere where you can go for a smoke break. If it’s a day shift, you get a morning break, a lunch break and an afternoon break.

Many jobs don't provide specified morning, lunch and afternoon breaks, so people tend to take lunch and just make a cuppa whenever. Smokers also tend to pop out whenever, sometimes for bloody ages at my place.

I'm possibly the only person who takes a full hour every day for lunch though.

As an ex-smoker, I can tell you my efficiency would plummet rapidly after an hour without smoking.

In fact, health and safety tells us office workers we should take 5 minutes every hour to rest our eyes - seems a perfect opportunity...

There is also the assumption that you stop working the moment you leave your desk (and that everyone else is working while sat at theirs...) Depends on your line of work of course, but more often than not I'd be stood outside working through something in my head, and walk back through the door with a solution to whatever I was working on.

All in all, I don't really get why it irritates people so much.

Just don’t think everyone is quite as diligent as you though Butcher.

Every time I read one of these regular threads I want to start smoking again.

I do still vape, but I think I may start doing 20 Bensons a day again, nipping out for one every hour

we should take 5 minutes every hour to rest our eyes

Break from the screen, not a break from working!

Must admit, one company I worked at we found out more what was going on elsewhere in the company from our department’s smoker and his contacts on cig breaks!

As a woman who has chosen not to have children, I am of the belief that after working for a company for a couple of years I should be given extra holidays to offset the fact I won't have maternity leave..... ever! Unlike a woman who I worked with before who had three children while working for the company.

Surely smokers deserve their breaks?

They pay a lot more tax and generally die a lot younger, saving the taxpayer any costs at Sleepy Meadows home for the terminally bewildered

You should stop persecuting them and show a bit of gratitude

In fact, health and safety tells us office workers we should take 5 minutes every hour to rest our eyes – seems a perfect opportunity…

No, it doesn’t.

No, it doesn’t.

"short, frequent breaks are more satisfactory than occasional, longer breaks: e.g., a 5-10 minute break after 50-60 minutes continuous screen and/or keyboard work is likely to be better than a 15 minute break every 2 hours;"

https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/vdubreaks.htm

Screen break not a break from work.

'Every employer shall so plan the activities of users at work in his undertaking that their daily work on display screen equipment is periodically interrupted by such breaks or changes of activity as reduce their workload at that equipment.'

informal breaks, that is time spent not viewing the screen (e.g. on other tasks), appear from study evidence to be more effective in relieving visual fatigue than formal rest breaks

people should not be sneaking off for fags. Official breaks only. In quiet times ( occasional!)

That's the kind of attitude that my work place cannot tolerate.

In fact, health and safety tells us office workers we should take 5 minutes every hour to rest our eyes – seems a perfect opportunity…

It does, so long as you afford non-smokers regular "not-smoking breaks" also. Totally with you on the 'thinking time,' I've done some of my best work whilst driving to / from work or having a poo. It's when smokers get extra breaks over non-smokers to feed their habit that it becomes problematic.

In an old workplace, me and the lady I sat next to went for a 5 min walk round the office every hour. Helped stretch legs and gave us a chance to talk over work away from the computers.
Boss was cool with it

Not a smoker but I don't think I like this.

I mean, I would take the extra holiday but I suppose they'd make me stop whining and crapping on for, oh, ten minutes three times a day or so about how positively awful smoking is

Next, feeling all superior'll become a taxable benefit and then I'll be ****ed

“short, frequent breaks are more satisfactory than occasional, longer breaks: e.g., a 5-10 minute break after 50-60 minutes continuous screen and/or keyboard work is likely to be better than a 15 minute break every 2 hours;”

https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/vdubreaks.htm/blockquote >

Guidance for VDU breaks. VDU = Visual display unit = computer screen.

'Every employer shall so plan the activities of users at work in his undertaking that their daily work on display screen equipment is periodically interrupted by such breaks or changes of activity as reduce their workload at that equipment.'

The guidance states:
In most tasks, natural breaks or pauses occur as a consequence of the inherent organisation of the work. Whenever possible, jobs at display screens should be designed to consist of a mix of screen-based and non screen-based work to prevent fatigue and to vary visual and mental demands. Where the job unavoidably contains spells of intensive display screen work (whether using the keyboard or input device, reading the screen, or a mixture of the two), these should be broken up by periods of non-intensive, non-display screen work. Where work cannot be so organised, e.g. in jobs requiring only data or text entry requiring sustained attention and concentration, deliberate breaks or pauses must be introduced.

Basically if you're in a normal office job, the nature of the work will involve going to the printer, going to see Dave in engineering, going a meeting etc etc. i.e. being away from your desk for some activities. However, if you work in a job like a call centre or IT servicedesk where you're required to be at your desk for long periods of time with no choice to get away from your desk, you should have pre-arranged breaks, normally a 15 min morning and 15 min afternoon break.

I applaude the extra holiday given, yeah there will be some people who 'work' during fag and vape breaks - be that networking, talking about work/projects etc but lets face it, the majority of smoke breaks are probably spent slagging off sarah in accounting. 😀

 

All depends where you work and how you work. I am lucky that I don't have to account for every minute of my time and can go for a break whenever I want, have an extended lunch, have no lunch, leave early, leave late etc,.
Others in the same company, say on the helpdesk, have strict breaks as described above.

The smoking part is irrelevant as long as everybody doing the same job has the same number of breaks. Maybe look at internet for 5 minutes, maybe read the paper, look at phone etc,.

All depends where you work and how you work.

True.

Facetime and Skype have broken the boundaries of fixed time meetings and out of hours no contact.

I too have a dislike of smokers taking a few mins off too, but I do think those that I know who do it are far more productive because of the breaks. Like most of us, we choose to apply ourselves when we feel comfortable in our place of work, less comfortable when there are restrictions and backward looking work time practices.

IMO

and out of hours no contact.

Anyone who allows work to contact them "out of hours" without being paid is letting their workplace make them work for free

work is work, home is home, never mix the two.

IMO

I wouldn't employ smokers to start with

SMOKERIST!!!!

I wouldn’t employ smokers to start with

Oooh! Get mr controversial.

Anyone he refuses to let work contact them out of hours just being awkward. IMO

Or is protective about his home life and does not want to work for free. Unless of course they are paying you on call. Get a phone call from work half way thru your rest period it resets the clock. 11 hours rest between shifts. so finish work at 5. Due in at 8am. Phone call at 11 pm means the 11 hour clock is reset and you cannot legally go to work until 10am

These laws are there to protect you.

I'd like to see them implement this at my workplace, especially as some of my colleagues take the piss; having a smoke break 5 minutes before morning break, doing the same before the lunchtime break and having a final fag 15 minutes before home time.

I get some of the time back by taking at least one porcelain cruise every day.

Screen break not a break from work.

As I say. Just because you're away from your desk, does not necessarily mean you're not working.

It does, so long as you afford non-smokers regular “not-smoking breaks” also. Totally with you on the ‘thinking time,’ I’ve done some of my best work whilst driving to / from work or having a poo. It’s when smokers get extra breaks over non-smokers to feed their habit that it becomes problematic.

Our office has games consoles, pool table, etc... You're encouraged to go and have a game at any time.

I do see the problem. Particularly with manual labour and jobs where output depends on the completion of repetitive tasks. Though in my experience, those are generally the jobs that enforce very strict timekeeping and set breaks anyway.

When your job consists of a lot of mental stimulation, regular breaks are essential in my opinion. Now as a non-smoker, on a busy day, I'll often zone out for a few minutes every hour, have something of a micro-rest, and bang, back to work. Otherwise I'm just exhausted.

I'd wager phone/internet use is a much bigger problem. How many people complaining about the smokers are typing this at work?

I should be given extra holidays to offset the fact I won’t have maternity leave….. ever!

Neither will I, being male.

When can I take my extra holidays?

Going back to the original point, what do we think is actually the thinking behind this?

- Attempt to reward non-smokers?
- Punishing smokers?
- Encouraging smokers to become non-smokers?
- Getting people to think about work breaks?
- Getting publicity for company?
- Several or all of the above?
- Something else?

Any thoughts?

Treating everyone equally regardless of whether they smoke or not?

– Attempt to reward non-smokers?
– Encouraging smokers to become non-smokers?

From reading what the boss man says it's those 2.

Only thing that bugs me about smoking policy at my place, is the outside smoking bench is in the nicest location. Only bugs me in the summer, when I like to have lunch outside, of course.
Oh and the ashtray stink that one bloke brings back in with him. Pongy bastard. Apart from that, I'm as unproductive as they are, if not worse 😆

What about those that sit on the crapper for 20 minutes at a time? That's 78 hours a year they are getting away with not working. If I can push one out in 3 minutes can I have an extra 4 days holiday?

work is work, home is home, never mix the two.

This x1 million. Work boss tried calling me a few times one evening. Got the hump when I didn't answer. Told him to f-off, I stop working at 5pm, if I'm at home I'm not at work.

As for the smoking thing. I am in the midst of giving up, not having that 5 mins break every couple of hours is killing me a little bit. I guess if I enjoyed my work that would be different but it just means I'm spending more time sat in an office with people I don't like doing a job I hate.

not having that 5 mins break every couple of hours is killing me a little bit.

Anything stopping you from just taking that break anyway? Replace your nicotine addiction with a caffeine addiction. (-:

I've been drinking more coffee than I though was humanly possible. Speaking of which, time to stand in the kitchen watching the kettle boil. I have cracked once on the smoking front, due to not having had one for over a week it was both fantastic and disgusting in equal measure.

Just need to work on the crap job thing.

Whenever I have started a new job, I'm ready for the "do you smoke" question. My answer has always been "no, but I'll take non-smoking breaks".

This policy would stop my non-smoking breaks, should my current work have had a similar attitude to smoking breaks.

I wouldn’t employ smokers to start with

That’s my company policy. I employ freelancers but not those that smoke.
If I worked in an office I would take my old tyre pressure gauge* with me and stand outside holding it for 15min upwind from the smokers/douche-flute wheezers.

*it looks a bit like a vape thingy.

As an ardent anti smoking type I'm still not convinced. For many work places the fag break has an element of 'crafty' about it. It is not sanctioned, it just happens. Giving extra leave will, given time, be perceived as denying leave to smokers - i.e. the standard leave is now 24 days but if you smoke we dock you 4 of those. That then legitimises the fag break - 'if they are going to knock 4 days off my leave I'm going to be blatant and take the piss'.

I would far rather see every employee get (and be encouraged to take) three ten min breaks a day regardless of if you are a smoker of not. Smokers who want to smoke go outside, everyone else chats in the kitchen or goes outside to the non carcinogenic areas. The condition I would put is that they must be taken on the hour (half hour, whatever - 'ten at ten past'. some might choose 1310, some 1510 - whatever suited their commitments) so that members of different departments mingled with more frequency. I might be miffed by colleagues getting extra time off for fag breaks but they often come back with intel about stuff going on around the business and have better relationships outside of their immediate colleague than us clean healthy types. That's positive for the business and could be seen as a model for the whole organisation.

I wouldn’t employ smokers to start with

That’s my company policy. I employ freelancers but not those that smoke.

To be fair, my first job as a grad there were a lot of smokers, and I thus took non smoking breaks (standing outside for a coffee having a chat). It was actually pretty useful for developing a network and exchanging ideas/chatting about technical details with people from different teams and at different levels within the company.

Whenever I have started a new job, I’m ready for the “do you smoke” question.

I'm genuinely surprised that this is a question anyone would ask. It's not specifically a 'protected characteristic' (like gender or race) as far as I'm aware, but prospective employers cannot ask questions which may prejudice their decision and that includes lifestyle choices. I'm pretty sure this would be illegal.

That’s my company policy. I employ freelancers but not those that smoke.

... as is that. It's unlawful discrimination and you could be hauled up for it. If that's an actual written company policy a tribunal would have you for breakfast.

’m genuinely surprised that this is a question anyone would ask.

I don't think anybody does these days. Back in the early to mid zeroties they did, though.

As a sometimes smoker I am dead set against fly flag breaks which disadvantages the non smokers

Smoke in your official break or if you are having a fly fag then the non smokers get to down tools for the same time

I think we need this here.

I also don’t smoke so I don’t think people should be allowed to have extended break time. It’s disgusting and FOUL. It makes them look ill and they STINK the office out.

As a man who has decided to not have any children I don’t think women or men should be entitled to a benefit that I shall not access and that’s MATERNITY leave. There are women POPPING them (kids) out left, right and centre where I work and are never at work whilst they're on their extended breaks ensuring their LEGACY is continued whilst the rest of us are propping up the company.

I also think it’s cheeky that staff get the jump on their breaks by eating their lunch at their DESKS during WORKING hours and then leave their desks for their FULL lunch break! I think they should have any time spent snacking at their desks DOCKED from their entitled break time.

Also, staff that get up from their desks to talk to other staff in the office about anything other than work should be docked break time as that’s LEISURE talk and so should be restricted to leisure time not work time.

I also plan ahead and extricate the bulk of my human WASTE at home, at my own expense. Why should my work colleagues benefit from THEIR poor planning and get to take extra toilet breaks whilst again I’m propping up the company.

Trying to decide if the smokers or the random CAPITALISERS should be first up against the wall in the office clear out 😉

… as is that. It’s unlawful discrimination and you could be hauled up for it. If that’s an actual written company policy a tribunal would have you for breakfast.

Never going to happen. I employ freelancers on an ad-hoc basis and the place of work is either a hire studio (no smoking) or private/public locations (usually non smoking) i’ll Hire whoever I like.

Only hired a smoker once, they were never there when I needed them at a critical time! Never again.

I suspect that smoking and the associated breaks, make very little difference to how productive someone is. I sit next to a guy who can be useless all day while at his desk, he doesn't smoke but if he did his absence would make very little difference 😀

I’m genuinely surprised that this is a question anyone would ask. It’s not specifically a ‘protected characteristic’ (like gender or race) as far as I’m aware, but prospective employers cannot ask questions which may prejudice their decision and that includes lifestyle choices. I’m pretty sure this would be illegal.

I take it as once they've started the job and are being shown around, so they can be shown where to smoke. Could be wrong though.

And they stink of old ashtrays when they come in, and their breath smells like they have been eating dog turd and pickled onion sarnies.
Why the need to exhale all the stink as they walk back in
Reckon you can get away with 2hrs free time if you plan your fag, toilet and lunch breaks accordingly
And they are always so busy, but have their coat on at 4.55....

Trying to decide if the smokers or the random CAPITALISERS should be first up against the wall in the office clear out 😉

TBH, I was trying to work out whether Poe's Law applied or not.

i’ll Hire whoever I like.

... illegally.

I’ll remember TJs advice next time I need to ring staff members after a bad job to see if they’re ok. I’ll just leave them sitting feeling hopeless and unsupported until they return to work as I can’t possible call them for a chat.

Again in English please

"The beatings will continue until moral improves"?

… as is that. It’s unlawful discrimination and you could be hauled up for it. If that’s an actual written company policy a tribunal would have you for breakfast.

From the personneltoday website:

Under current UK law, discrimination against employees or job applicants on grounds of sex, race, disability, sexual orientation or religious belief by employers is outlawed. However, there are no laws that directly prohibit discrimination against smokers.

The above is from 2004, however I've found other references from 2018 which still support this. I also remember reading an article a while ago where someone tried to sue their employer as they let her go when they found out she was a smoker when their job advert stated only non smokerts. She lost her case as the ruling was that the company could employ only non smokers.

Of course my info may be a little out of date so if the law has changed in the last couple of years then I'll be happy to be corrected.

I think you are right legally but on dubious grounds morally

Your issue with the employee was not that he smoked, it was that he was disappearing when supposed to be working.

As a man who has decided to not have any children I don’t think women or men should be entitled to a benefit that I shall not access and that’s MATERNITY leave.

Are you prepared to take the same hit to pay and pension as a woman taking maternity leave?

...illegally.

It’s not

Can Employees Refuse to Hire Smokers?
Although it does sound like discrimination it is not against the law for employers to refuse to hire smokers. Even if the employee claims they will not smoke during work hours the employer can still refuse to hire them. One employee in the UK was dismissed 15 minutes after being hired after employers found out that she smoked. This may seem like discrimination but employers are perfectly within their rights not to hire smokers

I dislike the stink of fags, I don’t want to work with/employ somebody who smokes.
Also I’m not employing anyone long term, these are other freelancers like me booked for the day, the only rights they have are that I should have employers/liability insurance and I pay them on time.
I’m actually a generous employer and buy them beer after a shoot, lend them gear and let one regular go early if he has a 5 a side game on.
No stinky smokers though.

The smokers are probably getting several days a year extra off sick, so it's a win-win for them.

Anyone who's replied on this  or any other thread during work time doesn't deserve to have an opinion on it.

If, as an employer, you are not allowed to exclude smokers from your candidate list. Could you refuse to employ a functioning alcoholic? I mean they are able to function so it doesn't impede their ability to do their job. How about recreational drug user? They could get boxed every weekend and other than being a miserable so and so come Wednesday it wouldn't interfere with work. Would it be unlawful to refuse employment on those grounds? Not just being a dick, I am actually interested where the line is drawn.

Anyone who’s replied on this  or any other thread during work time doesn’t deserve to have an opinion on it.

I’m smoking a faaaaag!

https://www.interview-skills.co.uk/free-information/interview-guide/illegal-interview-questions

8.1.7 here.

I’ll remember TJs advice next time I need to ring staff members after a bad job to see if they’re ok. I’ll just leave them sitting feeling hopeless and unsupported until they return to work as I can’t possible call them for a chat.

Well there are workers protections and there is moving with the times. TJ doesn't seem to have realised that for many the workplace is very different than it was 30 years ago.

I may deal with a problem outside of my work hours, likewise I may do an unpaid hour on a Saturday but then on the other hand I may go home early an hour today because I need to get something done before it is dark or I may decide to work from home tomorrow to allow me to get something else done more easily.
It is much more give and take and less rigid than it was when I first started working in the 80's and the times I work are much more down to me with the important bit being what I get achieved.

Kerley - what you do not realise is that is to your detriment and as above can often be illegal as it may well breach working time directive. Effectivly you are "on call" 24/7 for no extra money.

The rules are there to protect workers.

Yes if its an emergency its ok - but routinely? Not on at all

Stockholm syndrome?

Drac

I’m smoking a faaaaag!

Is he good looking?

Written while at work

Kerley
I'd better apologise for my post above - sounds rather harsher than I meant.

I just get frustrated at seeing worker protections being scaled back and with folk who see no issue with this.

apologies for sounding so harsh / getting personal

I’m typing this in the kitchen whilst waiting for my coffee to brew.

Should I be getting paid double time for this?

It’s pretty easy to figure out if someone smokes when you are assessing them for a job, and plenty of reasons to turn anyone down for a position if you don’t want them.

In this story the boss himself is a smoker and he brought it in. No one is losing any holiday, only gaining it if they don’t smoke. This includes people who want to give up, last X Weeks and you get a day off.

Inspired idea I think.

Kerley – what you do not realise is that is to your detriment and as above can often be illegal as it may well breach working time directive. Effectivly you are “on call” 24/7 for no extra money.

The rules are there to protect workers.

I'm with Kerley on this I'm afraid (and I'm sure he realises perfectly well, that's kinda condescending).

The Working Time Directive is there to stop employers taking advantage of its workforce, and it's something that as an individual you can opt out of. I did so as a) I trusted my employer not to take the piss and abuse the position and so didn't feel the need for its protection and b) it was in my best interests not to restrict the amount of overtime I could do if I wanted to. It's worked out just fine for me for the last decade or so.

I'm quite happy to trade emails with my boss at 2am on a Saturday night whilst I'm watching TV and halfway through a bottle of red, because I know full well that if I want an extra half hour in bed the following Tuesday morning no-one would care. The door swings both ways, y'see.

What you're overlooking perhaps is that this is my choice, ultimately it's to my net benefit. I'm not "on call" as there is absolutely no mandate for me to be looking at work stuff out of hours let alone be doing anything about it, and five minutes to fire off an email might save me a couple of hours the following day. If anyone were to ever say to me, "why didn't you answer the phone when I called last night?" then we would be having a Conversation.

I absolutely do not work for free and if I was doing prescribed out of hours work - as I'm likely to be doing tonight - then I'll claim overtime for it or I'm not doing it. As I've said many times, "I'll work to rule if you want, but you won't like it."

I think you are right legally but on dubious grounds morally

It's ok in my morality book 😀

Cougar - see my apology above

Some aspects of the WTD you cannot "opt out of" the 11 hour rest period being one of them. the only opt out is the 48 hr week

there are special circumstances where the 11 hour rest period can me missed - but compensatory rest must be given IIRC as it must be for overlong shifts

If your boss is phoning you at home then that is work and WTD applies. You are "on call" and should be remunerated for it.

Cougar – see my apology above

Yeah, you posted that as I was typing. As you were. (-:

Some aspects of the WTD you cannot “opt out of” the 11 hour rest period being one of them

That I didn't know. Interesting.

If your boss is phoning you at home then that is work and WTD applies. You are “on call” and should be remunerated for it.

Only if I'm expected to answer it. I've carried a work phone as well as a personal one for like 30 years for precisely this reason, colleagues at a previous employer thought it was perfectly fine to ring me at 8am on a Sunday morning with questions about a problem they were having with their personal home computer. A separate phone has an 'off' switch.

The reality of this for me today is that anyone other than my boss or teammates phoning me out of hours would be highly unusual, like "the building is on fire" level of a problem. If a colleague were to call - still unusual - it's as much likely to be to tell me about the new graphics card they'd bought or that the next series of Mr Robot had just dropped on Netflix rather than something work-related.