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I'm after installing a smart thermostat. I have an oil boiler, vented hot water tank and radiators. There is no split in the heating system, just between the HW and CH. I'm looking for something reasonably simple to set up and change programme. I'm retired so I'm in and out but routine changes all the time. Are smart radiator valves worth it or am I best keeping it simple? Any suggestions gratefully received.
I've got access to three systems and would recommend the tado in our house.
Easy self install, good app, great control.
It's easy to program, and manually override. You can add TRVs if required and these are good not just to isolate rooms but to call for heat in others if required.
We had payback in under 2 years based on the added control and manual intervention.
You'd need to check it works with your boiler and if adding TRVs make sure you have range from the hub.
If being in wifi range of the hub is an issue, the Drayton Wiser system has repeater plugs. Not very intuitive to set up, but it works well.
We have a Drayton wiser system.
Works well and integrates with IFTTT quite easily so I can set up sequences.
We have 6 thermostats. Room stat and a plug. I want more plugs but they are 40 quid a pop .....waiting for a special. I bought my whole set up for about 100 at the time so 40 quid each grates
Tado then.
Look for deals. My stat was £99 and the TRVs were £120. I quickly agreed 3 more.
Drayton Wiser. Very straightforward to set up and the room thermostats are cheap enough if you buy a few starter kits from Screwfix and lob the hub on eBay. Room thermostats are £100 on their own, or £99 complete with a full kit…
Reliable heating control, but I did have problems with one of the radiator thermostats having a dodgy battery connection and the technical support was awful (basically “send it back to Amazon” and completely ignoring the fact that it was one of a three-pack that has since doubled in price).
So after that I’m a bit more ambivalent.
I have the wiser. It's OK but not great.
App seems quite counter-intuitive, and a bit clunky. Hardware seems fine. The batteries last about a year in the TRVs, which is a bit saddening.
Smart radiator valves? Nah. Just get regular TRVs.
These 2 ‘heat geek’ videos might be of interest OP
https://www.heatgeek.com/must-watch-before-choosing-a-smart-thermostat/
https://www.heatgeek.com/why-not-to-zone-heat-pumps-or-boilers/
We have Hive. Installed with a new Viessmann boiler 2 or 3 years ago. Simple to use. Easy to program. App control is easy. Installer said ‘consider it a basic stopgap. If you get something more sophisticated you can sell it on eBay’.
I’m tempted by the Heatmiser stuff as we have a mix of UFH and radiators as well as HW and currently have 2 control systems. Anyone got Heatmiser experience? https://heatmisershop.co.uk/
There was a looooong and boring thread last year where people were posting those Heatgeek vids which prompted much debate. I’m not convinced they really know what they’re talking about tbh 😂 At the end of the day if peoples’ bills are showing savings you can’t really argue with that 🤷♂️
At the end of the day if peoples’ bills are showing savings you can’t really argue with that 🤷♂️
Well you can...
No two years are the same temp wise for a start.
Secondly, a sudden interest in smart thermostats suggests an interest in saving money, which probably means being more aware of how much CH you use, which probably means you will use less regardless just by turning the thermostat down etc...
Smart radiator valves? Nah. Just get regular TRVs.
Normal TRVs can't call for heat in a cold room.
We have Hive.
So you're advising against fitting devices which save energy and increase comfort, while at the same time running a modern condensing boiler on an on/off protocol instead of OpenTherm? 🤔
During recent refit our electrician recommended Hive so we went with that. Works great, got some connected TRVs and they work great too, will be adding more over time.
Got a lot of lights on Hive too now, all good. The app is quite good, works for wife and I across multiple devices (inc. Apple Watch), and any inputs or change you request happen immediately (e.g. boiler turns on when you ask it, which apparently is not true of other systems).
note, this is our first foray into smart home stuff, I have no experience with any other smart hearing stuff, but it all works great.
I fitted a Tado wireless thermostat kit to the combi boiler in our holiday static caravan a few weeks ago. Slightly different situation as it has a combi boiler and didn't have a thermostat fitted previously. Just got the basic kit - no TRVs - but I'm really pleased with it. Nice clear, easy instructions to fit which I did myself and I'm certainly not any kind of heating engineer. Instantly made a difference to the place having a wireless thermostat - of course the very best feature for a static caravan is being able to turn the heating on from your phone so it's warm and toasty before you get there. Which might be handy for you if your schedule changes on the fly too.
Decent phone app, easy to program, neat wireless thermostat, easy installation, has worked perfectly for us so far. And the starter kit (boiler control unit, wireless bridge to plug into your router and wireless thermostat) was only £99 from Screwfix.
Hive is the only one I wouldn’t recommend tbh - It’s entirely internet based, no public API, so you’re completely at the whim of whatever they decide to do, which ultimately will be to funnel people towards their app/monthly subscription and poor/no integration with other smart home systems.
Other systems are much of a muchness and all have their pros/cons - I went DW as this is one of the few which will still work if your internet goes down! (the reason Tado didn’t get a look in for me)
Tado fan here.
When I was looking many years ago it seemed to be the only system that concentrated properly on the simple geolocation aspect for its smarts rather than trying to learn your routine (whole point from moving away from a traditional timer thermostat was that I didn't have a set routine). I started off with just a thermostat and now have every room fully TRV'ed up (11x TRVs) plus wireless temp sensors in each room. Integrates nicely with Apple Homekit if that's your bag and if IFTTT compatible as well. I've never had an ounce of connectivity issues in a strangely shaped house with thick Victorian walls that WiFi does struggle with, so personally feel connection issues to the hub are overplayed. If you talk to Tado they can tinker remotely to boost the power if needed to benefit the mesh between units. You now need a subscription I believe to access all features which is a bummer, but it the way of the world. Luckily early adopters were not forced onto the subscription.
The geolocation aspect definitely saves me money, but I'm a lot less convinced the per room control does. What it does do though is allow me to direct heat where I want and when I want - the rooms actually in use heat up a lot faster rather than trying to heat the whole house, so it feels like my system is a lot more powerful and reactive than it actually is.
There never used to be offers on hardware but now they seem quite common, Amazon and Screwfix are worth keeping an eye on. Offers are either a good thing or the end of the world, depending on if think it means the company is in trouble and you're going to be left with a non-functioning system if they go under.
There’s about 30% off most of the Drayton Wiser kit on Amazon black friday at the moment.
Anyone using Wiser and Home Assistant? I like the non cloud based aspect of HA.
lol, that was Tados entire USP surely? And now you (not [i]you[/i] obvs 🤪) have to pay monthly for it?You now need a subscription I believe to access all features which is a bummer, but it the way of the world.
of course, that’s the main reason I went down the DW route! 😎Anyone using Wiser and Home Assistant?
lol, that was Tados entire USP surely? And now you (not you obvs 🤪) have you pay monthly for it?
Yeah it's lame - I think without the sub it pops up on your phone "looks like you are not at home, do you want to turn your heating off" rather than doing it for you. I believe you can easily automate it without a sub using IFTTT though. Sub is £25 a year which isn't exactely a deal breaker I would say.
Sure but a) it’s the principle of the thing and b) slippery slope
also, some companies seem to be terminating IFTTT integration, Alexa have done it/are doing it and I believe Hive have just announced they’re doing it - so just because you have the option [i]now[/i] doesn’t mean it’ll always be there! (Also, IFTTT itself demands a subscription now to do anything useful with it)
basically the take-home is, with any devices which require internet server access to operate - this is not done for the benefit of the user, so choose your smart-home devices carefully!
Reminder for all Worcester Bosch users that they do not use Opentherm so only their controllers (and possibly a variant of Tado) will properly modulate.
Thanks Zilog, looks like a project for the spring. What hardware are you running HA on?
Fairly recent/powerful Lenovo ThinkCentre (their equivalent of NUC) bought refurbished off eBay for ~£300. Complete overkill for "just" HA, but I use it as a home server too so it's running lots of other stuff also e.g. camera NVR & Plex server, etc. I don't rate Pis for HA - you [I]will[/I] kill the SD card - unless you upgrade to SSD, but then you might as well go down the Mini PC route in the first place 🤷♂️
Thanks, was thinking about a mini pc as well.
Yeah Bosch's protocol is naff, but the OP has a oil boiler which won't modulate anyway, so you just need to swap the normal stat connectors out for the smart one and set the timer to be "on" permanently. They do an opentherm to boschObfuscatedCrap converter (and the other direction as well), but reliability is poor.
Netatmo fan here, purely for the way it works entirely offline if needed. Cloud based back end is optional and free. Nice interface on the phone app or I can use the native homekit integration and control it all through there. I like the way it auto adapts depending on the inertia of the individual room, the outside temperature (which it can source from weather forecasts or our weather station) or even as I change things in the house like leave a door open or add insulation. List price is expensive, but ebay and amazon have turned up some bargains over the last 8 months it's been running.
They do an opentherm to boschObfuscatedCrap converter (and the other direction as well), but reliability is poor.
Yeah I know, shame really. Was just mentioning for those getting inspired who may be unaware. It's a pain in my arse for sure.
does it 🤔 AFAIK it will carry on using the schedule, but you cannot adjust the schedule or even manually adjust the heating (except by literally using the manual controls on the valves themselves!) without internet access?Netatmo fan here, purely for the way it works entirely offline if needed.
also, HomeKit for central heating is a bit of a red herring as I don’t think the implementation as it stands allows for anything except very basic on/off/set temp etc I.e. nothing fancy or even scheduling?
Smart radiator valves? Nah. Just get regular TRVs.
These 2 ‘heat geek’ videos might be of interest OP
Their sums appear to be based on unrealistic assumptions. In the last scenario they have room temps maintained at 18c despite the rads being off. A 3c fall off between rooms with rads on and those with them off? Maybe with a fan blowing through an open door, but not in any house I've ever been in.
Utilising this means the calculated property heat loss is much higher in those rooms than reality and as such the calcs are out.
I t's definitely more complicated than I imagined, but I don't think the articles calculate using realistic scenarios so it's hard to trust the conclusions.
That said, why are regular TRVs better in these scenarios than smart ones? If anything wouldn't they be worse as with smart ones that can call for heat & temp offset appropriately, demand is kept more consistent?
You can amend automation and instant temperature offline purely through homekit, but yes you'd lose the ability to change the netatmo scheduling side of things. But how often do you meddle with the schedule?
No one seems to have mentioned it, but have a look at what the manufacturer of your boiler offers. They can often work better with the boiler than third party offerings, particularly if your boiler is capable of modulating down.
sure. The point though is that the entire Netatmo ecosystem seems to be cloud-based, with some control locally via HomeKit. But if you don't run Apple, you can't even get that, obviously. 🤷♂️You can amend automation and instant temperature offline purely through homekit, but yes you’d lose the ability to change the netatmo scheduling side of things. But how often do you meddle with the schedule?
I have enjoyed all the advice and ignored almost all of it by getting a bunch of Tado stuff second hand off ebay. 9am this morning I was planning to buy new stuff with pro instalation... But thank you for pushing me out of my indecision!
I don't think you can go too far wrong with that. Of course the question then is why is there so much 2nd hand Tado stuff on eBay 🤔😂
Black Friday deals on Wiser kit https://shop.se.com/uk/en/black-friday.html
Have I misunderstood what Smart TRV's can do? I assumed a Smart TRV on each rad on each room would mean instead of heating the whole house AM and PM, I could heat upstairs in the AM when waking up and getting ready only, then in the evening heat downstairs before heating upstairs not long before bedtime? I'd assume this could be overridden in each room on the TRV with a boost style button.
But reading this thread and googling some options has confused me!
Thats correct with the Hive system as long as you have Hive TRVs on each rad and set them to call for heat on demand. Then you can use the app to set individual rads to come on at certain times.
Personally though I'm dubious how much actual money this saves you unless you have a massive house with thick walls and loads of rads
I do have the Hive system and have had it for 2 years but recently its been a bit glitchy going offline several times - this becomes a pain if you are not at home as you can't reset it remotely.
Not sure any of these systems are that robust tbh
I do like being able to monitor temps in seperate rooms and stop my kids from bunging on the heating to max all the time when i'm at work
On oikeith your right well at least with wiser
also, HomeKit for central heating is a bit of a red herring as I don’t think the implementation as it stands allows for anything except very basic on/off/set temp etc I.e. nothing fancy or even scheduling?
I might be missing your point but for my own amusement I just tried setting up a Homekit automation and I am able to select a Tado device (or other temp sensor such a Homepod) to use as the temp sensor, then add parameters of falling above/below X temp (or humidity), add any time scheduling I want and also define the rule based on who is or isn't at home - then tell it to alter temp as required on a nominated Tado thermostat or radiator. So I think you can do scheduling with Homekit (and would also not be reliant on IFTTT for automating stuff).
Really interesting programme on BBC Sounds - Sliced Bread did an episode on ‘Smart’ thermostats. Worth a listen. To get the best return on investment I am going to wait until I replace the boiler, current system is 14 years old.
Have I misunderstood what Smart TRV’s can do? I assumed a Smart TRV on each rad on each room would mean instead of heating the whole house AM and PM, I could heat upstairs in the AM when waking up and getting ready only, then in the evening heat downstairs before heating upstairs not long before bedtime? I’d assume this could be overridden in each room on the TRV with a boost style button.
That's exactly what they do and how they saved us money, but also made our whole house more comfortable.
We used to have a timer thermostat in the hall and dumb TRVs.
I work from home so during the day the office is heated, which also meant the kitchen/hall and bathroom were. The living room, dining room and bedrooms were set to comfort level. To save energy I had to turn them all down and up manually during the day.
Plus if the hall got up to temperature the system turned off, often leaving the living room or study too cold.
With smart TRVs each room is the correct temperature through the day. Living room and dining room are low until 5pm. Bedrooms low until 8pm. Quick burst just in the kitchen at tea time. Etc.
If the hall is hot but the living room cold it can now call for heat and we have a comfortable living room.
On top of that the temperature logging in the app allowed me to see how long rooms take to heat up so I cut the timer down in the mornings in the bedroom.
A really random side effect - a TRV sprung a leak at the pin. The Tado was reporting really high humidity and I investigated and found the leak. There was quite a puddle. It would have taken more damage to appear if I hadn't had that flag!
I have a spreadsheet of kWh and £ per month on the bills and plot trendlines so while weather variants do impact energy needs I can see the trend and there's a clear drop when we fitted Tado.
if a simple power-cycle would sort this then the easy solution is to put it on a smart plug.recently its been a bit glitchy going offline several times – this becomes a pain if you are not at home as you can’t reset it remotely.
yeah, you could do that, very clunky though, and time consuming if you want to do it for every day and room! There's no mechanism within HomeKit (yet) to do that easily/intuitive from a specific interface. Just like (for some reason) HomeKit has no idea what a vacuum is, even though robo-vacs are pretty common now!I might be missing your point but for my own amusement I just tried setting up a Homekit automation and I am able to select a Tado device (or other temp sensor such a Homepod) to use as the temp sensor, then add parameters of falling above/below X temp (or humidity), add any time scheduling I want
Check with your energy company as well, ovo had an offer on the tado system and when I contacted them they said I should fill the form out to see if I qualified for a free one.
I wasn't expecting anything but I did qualify, I may possibly be registered somewhere odd as an unpaid carer but I haven't actively requested that.
One free tado later, it's been really good so far.
I have a schedule set up and pretty much just turn it on or off in the app. Geolocation could be good, but the radius means I'm at home before the house warms up.
We have a bosch system thoughout, it works very well. Each room has its own programme, tailored to its use pattern. Today I had heat in the office and off everywhere else.
@zilog6128 That would work if it was simply the hub but quite often you need to switch off the boiler node thingy which is rubbish. The stat is battery so that has to be a manual take out and replace. Same for the valves. Quite honestly I think the system is a bit shaky and I wouldn't bother again. When it breaks I'll probably chuck the TRVs away and go back to a hard wired system with dumb TRVs and a remote wireless stat - quite frankly I think 'smart' home stuff is basically shite. I've got better things to do than spend time trouble shooting my heating or even worse, my lights etc
Yeah a mate has Hive, overall he's happy with it but has woken up to a cold house a few times and had to hard-reset it or whatever!!
You're not wrong, a lot (the majority?) of smart-home gear [I]is[/I] crap, especially the more "consumer friendly" stuff that gets advertised/pushed heavily or you can just grab off the shelf in Currys etc. There are decent options available for everything (including lights!), but unless you're really into it and/or do a huge amount of research before buying anything it's probably difficult to tell what's what tho.
’m tempted by the Heatmiser stuff as we have a mix of UFH and radiators as well as HW and currently have 2 control systems. Anyone got Heatmiser experience? https://heatmisershop.co.uk/
just fitted a neohub last week, not done much with it yet as its just connecting to 2 neostats contolling upstairs rads and HW(oil combi), hopefully in the next couple of weeks the downstairs UFH will get connected up.
bloke i was working for last week hasjust had it setup and reckons its better than the hive setup in his other house.
Thought I posted this earlier. But
With wiser I'm convinced the majority of my savings come from not heating an empty house thanks to geofencing.
We do use markedly less oil year on year when comparing before and after.
Not had any issues with wiser locking me out. I find I get 18 ISH months out of the batteries on the downstairs. The upstairs are much further from my hub and get through them in a year. Just bought another 2 plug extenders for security sequencing purposes but also to reduce the distance the signals traveling to he upstairs trvs.
We've had Honeywell Evohome for almost 5 years - I'd recommend. Been 100% reliable for us. 9 zones setup in our mid/late 1800s house, connected to a basic but new combi boiler. No connectivity issues despite ridiculously thick walls. No issues with the app - also have the central control panel although we rarely touch that and don't use the thermostat built into that - we rely on each zone's own TRV to assess the temp and call for heat based on each zone's programme.
Unsure on cost-saving/paying for itself as we fitted it within 2 months of moving in, so no baseline. However, we're using significantly less gas than previous occupants. Also approx 2/3 the gas usage of our previous house which was a slightly larger 2006 new-build (admittedly in a more exposed location), so on that basis I'd say it's worth it for us.
We have a Tado system , smart thermostat & 6 smart rad valves. We have found it to be excellent, an easy to use app. There were comprehensive instructions to install the smart thermostat & disable the wired one. We can heat rooms exactly how we like, the house is more comfortable & gas use is down.