Smart meters

not an expert but when I got a smart meter from Octopus in my previous house they were installing a mix of SMETS1 (older) and SMETS2 (newer) on the understanding that the smart meter network would be upgraded in the near future to work with SMETS1. I suspect that's what heppened with you.

Mine has been offline since June, which is very frustrating when I am trying to monitor my energy consumption.....

Sadly I'm with British Gas and their 'message us' in app feature is useless! I've requested an engineer to fix it, but I just get waffle.

I think it is a common issue. I refuse to give them my meter readings as they'll never fix it if I do...

Octopus keep pinging me to get one installed. Is there any good reason not to these days?

I don’t object to them, just never got around to it.

Question; what's in it for me if I get a smart meter?
I'm assuming they're not so smart as to be able to identify what is using the energy, only the amount of consumption during the day so I can see what comes on when the consumption goes up?
That and it saves me sending a reading in each month, I guess?

Question; what’s in it for me if I get a smart meter?
I’m assuming they’re not so smart as to be able to identify what is using the energy, only the amount of consumption during the day so I can see what comes on when the consumption goes up?
That and it saves me sending a reading in each month, I guess?

You'd see the hourly rate go up straight away when you turn things on, which might be enough to convince people to put the radio on rather than leave the TV news on while they work or something. And if enough people make small changes they all add up. Obviosuly big things like the oven or tumble dryer will have you going HOW MUCH!!!!! when they're on.

And gives you access to the various peak/off-peak tariffs if you want without needing a new meter.

And no need to extract myself from a teams call to clear a path through the garage for some random bloke to read the meter every 6 months.

@fadda - honestly, the main thing for most folk is not having to send a meter reading. We had one in our old place (and will get one in our new one) because it lets octopus give us a cheaper tarrif overnight for car charging. We also had Solar PV in our old place so I could look at the monitor and see if it was a good time to run the washing machine/dishwasher etc.

I think more broadly they allow the grid to be run more efficiently, which is probably a good thing for everyone (and the reason why nobody will charge you for one).

I think more broadly they allow the grid to be run more efficiently

Que?

I think more broadly they allow the grid to be run more efficiently

Que?

Allowing time of use tarrifs /intelligent tarrifs so that a large amount of base load can be time shifted to times when there is traditionally low demand ..

You can pay 1/3rd of the price for 3/4/5 hours in the middle of the night or get paid to reduce your use during peak times.....

get paid to reduce your use during peak times…..

Or just be cut off if the hospital needs the power more than they think you do

Ooh, food for thought there, thanks. Hadn't thought about the ability to run the grid more efficiently, and access to tariffs is a good personal benefit - I'm starting to see the point!
Thanks all

Had one installed a year ago when I called SSE to give a meter reading - they obviously had someone on the island with time to spare as it was done the next day. They then messaged me to say it wasn’t working properly and needed an ‘engineer’ to come and fix it. Cue about 6 appointments/no shows. When I complained they finally admitted they weren’t able to support customers on Mull…because we’re on an island. I still pay the lowest tariff though.

Or just be cut off if the hospital needs the power more than they think you do

I guarantee if that needs to happen
It'll happen smart meter or not.

You probably.want to get your self.off grid if that's your concern.

I refuse to give them my meter readings as they’ll never fix it if I do…

I know this was a few hours ago, but...

This is a high risk strategy. If the estimates are low, when they finally get an accurate meter reading you could be in the hole for many hundreds of pound, particularly with the way power prices are now.

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For ever and ever... and it will never, ever stop...

And no need to extract myself from a teams call to clear a path through the garage for some random bloke to read the meter every 6 months.

They still come round once a year..... I didn't realise this having not seen a meter man for the 12 years I've lived here......

He seemed upset I carded him at the door after saying ....yes but I have a smart meter.....

Once he had looked at the meter he then admitted he had been sent to our house specifically as our usage was miles under our normal pattern so they suspected meter bypassing ..... Yes no shit it's lower - did you see the roof of house ?

After several years with EDF they’ve informed me my smart meter is now talking to them.

As it’s a few years old I thought this wasn’t possible. Have I missed an OTA software update or something?

Same has happened to me, had one installed in 2020 with the intention of going on octopus agile, but had to throw in the towel as the signal was too weak to communicate regularly with my meter (my TV signal is also weak), so it just became a dumb meter. Got an email a month ago informing me that they were now able to communicate with my meter.

My assumption is that they have installed some new radio Comms kit somewhere nearby to boost the signal for collecting smart meter data, in my case (north) it's a radio frequency operated by arqiva (if you're south of approx Sheffield, I believe it's Telefonica using 2g mobile network).

After years of nagging from EDF, I had an EDF one installed in July. The electricity side works, but not the gas. I have reported it to EDF (which was a major challenge in itself) and it apparently requires an Engineer visit. It has been months, and I too am refusing to send meter readings. WHERE IS MY LAND OF MILK AND HONEY?

Every month I get n email from Octopus asking for readings. I click open the link. Walk 4 yards to the cupboard. Enter the readings. And done. No great hardship.

Since the great price increase we have reduced our daily usage from 10-12kWh per day to 6kWh per day. No Smart meter required. Common sense. What uses most power? Reduce tumble drier use. Last time we replaced the kettle we go a glass kettle. Easy to fill with only required water. Pond pump switched off for winter.

Gas usage down 40% this year. Nothing to do with the meter. New boiler. Better controls. Better loft insulation.

I have no need to know on a daily basis how much energy I am using. I use what I need to use and having a Smart meter won't mean I need to use less.

Just a pity the cost of Smart meters is shared on everyone's bills and not charged to those that want one.

Just a pity the cost of Smart meters is shared on everyone’s bills and not charged to those that want one.

I'm pretty sure that they save money for the providers by not having to pay people to read them.

Perhaps, though I can't remember the last time we had a meter guy here. If that was the case though the energy companies would be pushing them for themselves rather than pusbhing them because they get fined if they don't meet targets.

What can it cost to read a meter £5? Once a year? What does a smart meter cost including labour to install? £200? A 40 year break even. The eergy companies get the savings. We pay the costs of installation.

A win/win for the companies I suppose.

There is an industry wide project to migrate the SMETS1 meters to the same system that SMETS2 use which should make them interoperable between suppliers. It was supposed to be completed in September but as with everything it's dragging on.

Smart meters are great. Our electricity bill this month is £45. We're on Octopus Go as we have an EV and home battery. Without a smart meter we'd be stuck on the flat rate tariff. Which at the current 34p/kWh would mean a bill of £200 this month.

Yes smart meters cost more upfront than an dumb meter and maybe the operational cost isn't cheaper than sending people to read meters. However smart meters allow for better demand shifting; curtailing wind farms costs money, obtaining additional capacity during large peaks costs a lot of money. Without a smart meter there is no way to incentivise/reward home owners for shifting their usage (big business/industry have had half hourly metering for years).

The law (as it stands currently) doesn't allow your supplier to switch you off on a whim. You're no more at risk of being disconnected. A court order is still required. It is slightly easier for them to swap you to a prepay setup though.

Big bonus for me is that I normally charge the car at night on a rate that's something like 5% of the peak rate at the moment. Haven't submitted a meter reading in years

Smart meters are great. Our electricity bill this month is £45. We’re on Octopus Go as we have an EV and home battery. Without a smart meter we’d be stuck on the flat rate tariff. Which at the current 34p/kWh would mean a bill of £200 this month.

Similar here, I paid 17.72p/kWh in October rather than the 34p/kWh price cap, thanks to having a smart meter (octopus tracker v1). Not sure yet what the price will be for November, but at least 8 days in November have been under 20p/kwh.

You’re no more at risk of being disconnected. A court order is still required. It is slightly easier very easy for them to swap you to a prepay setup though.

FTFY

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63554879

As it’s a few years old I thought this wasn’t possible. Have I missed an OTA software update or something?

Improved mobile phone coverage.

A 40 year break even.

The older analogue meters are only good for 10 years IIRC, so they have to swap them out every 10 years regardless.

^^^

My meter was here when I moved in 15yrs ago and at a guess it’s been there for 15yrs prior to that at least.

Smart meter install booked for Thursday morning so we’ll see what they make of it.

Improved mobile phone coverage.

If they live north of Sheffield it's RF comms not mobile phone.

I should have said the regulatory process was slightly easier. As the article says, suppliers aren't supposed to change you to prepay without your knowledge. Hopefully ofgem will step in and fine ones that are going rogue, I won't hold my breath though.

@stevious It must be that - thanks!

@footflaps We’ve never had a particular issue with mobile signal here. I’m sure GRPS is more than adequate for these to text in a meter reading and meter number every so often (assuming that’s how they work?)

I had assumed they used GRPS, but could be wrong. Given their location - often in an understaff cupboard etc, they're not exactly in a great location for a signal.

The older analogue meters are only good for 10 years IIRC, so they have to swap them out every 10 years regardless.

Mines been in since '87

I should have said the regulatory process was slightly easier. As the article says, suppliers aren’t supposed to change you to prepay without your knowledge. Hopefully ofgem will step in and fine ones that are going rogue, I won’t hold my breath though.

Probably been listening in on Siri/Alexa etc to people saying how they plan not to pay the new massively inflated leccy bills and thought “hold my beer”

I’ll get me tin hat 😉

Mines been in since ’87

We're on our 2nd dumb meter in 22 years, so maybe it's a bit longer than 10 years.

Or maybe they swap them out more frequently down south....

Meters for industrial and commercial customers are either certified or the supplier reaches agreement with the customer for a meter with a similar level of accuracy to be installed. Certification periods are allocated by OPSS and are restricted to 10 years for newly approved induction meters and for periods of between 10 and 20 years for static meters. Certification periods greater than 10 years (for static meters) are subject to the submission and validation of a component reliability model based on the Siemens Norm SN29500.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electricity-meter-certification

You can pay 1/3rd of the price for 3/4/5 hours in the middle of the night or get paid to reduce your use during peak times…..

More a case that they can put up prices for peak and claim you're saving money in so called "off peak".

The whole project was driven by the savings to the industry of not having to send out someone to read a meter and the ability to charge different rates at different times (originally this was dismissed as would never happen).

I’m assuming they’re not so smart as to be able to identify what is using the energy, only the amount of consumption during the day so I can see what comes on when the consumption goes up?

A smart meter itself is just a meter in a cupboard. The only thing smart about it is it can in theory talk via a mobile signal to the network to send readings.

The In Home Display part is a gadget that can also talk to your smart meter and shows the meter reading and should show some kind of cost of use, if it's talking to the supplier to get current rates. Purely optional part of the smart meter install. Billed as the thing that will make people save money but many forget about it once they're over the novelty stage, or it never worked to begin with it, or they weren't given one.

A smart meter would never be able to identify the actual devices. That requires all your devices to be smart also and the technology to be open enough for every gadget to talk the same language (it isn't). Best you can do is switch something on/off and see what it shows before/after.

Though many smart bulbs and some smart switches report power usage, which may or may not be reported in their respective apps, or you can use stuff like Home Assistant if you have a home server (or a Pi) to run it on, and the gadgets are compatible.

A smart meter would never be able to identify the actual devices.

Not quite true. We have a 3rd party smart meter thing and one os it's USPs was it learned your power hungry devices based on their power profile eg Kettle vs Oven etc. It sort of worked, but obv it won't be able to tell two identical loads apart.

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Mines been in since ’87

Got a digital pre-smart meter, maybe about 2000. Was an old spinning wheel type before that and bet it would still be perfectly fine (seen a few businesses still running those kinds of meters).

Used to be on SSE and when smart meters were rolling out, they gave me all kinds of stories including must be replaced because it could be DANGEROUS! Threats of cutting off, getting a court order to replace it and all that. Ignored it all, switched to Bulb and they said nothing other than adverts saying, "would you like a smart meter".

Though getting "your meter is old and needs replacing" stuff since Bulb got government owned.

Gas meter is old mechanical dial type.

What can it cost to read a meter £5? Once a year?

Are you talking about someone being sent out to read it? If so then way more than that

Maybe if they're only doing your meter but I'd imagine they will be doing a load in the same area. Unless of course they have the same route planner as DPD.

I've been trying to get BG to put one in for us, Computer says no..... and the humans apparently on the other end of it also say no..

The theory of them for me is great, I’m on a gas tracker tariff which changes daily and it varies between about 3p & 6p.

The electric is an off peak tariff for charging the EV overnight.

For the first couple of years the gas meter never connected, but the electric worked fine. Then the gas meter died and cut off our gas, tbf the meter was replaced the same day and we were reconnected.

Then Smart meter nirvana for a couple of months, both meters were happily sending their readings in. Until the middle of October when the electric meter stopped. So now I just have the gas working properly.

I’m not quite sure how it will work once they manage to reconnect it and what peak vs off peak readings it will send 🤷🏻‍♂️

Maybe if they’re only doing your meter but I’d imagine they will be doing a load in the same area.

Pretty sure it's done by a 3rd party company who does the whole street in one go - pretty sure I've seen someone do all our gas meters (outside) in the last few years. All our leccy meters and inside (for our street) and I don't ever recall it being read by anyone knocking on the door etc...

The older analogue meters are only good for 10 years IIRC, so they have to swap them out every 10 years regardless.

Mine's been in since 1990. This year the gas pipes in the street and supply pipe to our meter were replaced. Kept the same meter though. I would assume if meters has a service life of 10 years that would have been the time to swap it.

And it is still accurate. My heating App has a function to measure boiler gas use. It matches the meter reading.

I would assume if meters has a service life of 10 years that would have been the time to swap it.

Gas meters are up to 25 years apparently.

10 is / was the standard for leccy.

I had BG install smart meters for us, our gas meter appears to have died. Not sending updates to BG, and neither of the buttons turn on the display. Contacted BG twice to try and get a rectification, but get told "they'll ring me".

Bit annoying as I'd like to keep an eye on gas usage...

Smart meters are pretty much essential if you:
Have an EV, so you can smart charge overnight
Have solar panels, so you can register export
Have a home battery, so you can charge or discharge overnight for energy price arbitrage.

The real time view of your consumption is nice, and so is the ability to get a daily reading, but their true function is enabling smarter home and smarter grids

If we weren't rolling them out, the complainers would be complaining in 10 years' time about how antiquated our infrastructure is.

Smart meters are an awful invasion of privacy that will lead to an awful system where the energy providers will use their knwoledge of your usage to do individual pricing.
IE whatever your peak time is they will make that really expensive. It will lead to misery. Only the rich will have the convenience of energy at their fingertips.
if you think that is paranoia or a conspiracy theory look at how poorer people with key meters are overcharged and how the energy companies have written and taken advantage of the pricing rules to do us all over.

Smart meters are an awful invasion of privacy that will lead to an awful system where the energy providers will use their knwoledge of your usage to do individual pricing.

Or allow people to vary their usage and smooth out the national grid.

We're getting a 10 kWh battery installed this week which can charge and discharge from the grid, so we can charge when it's cheaper and use the battery when the unit cost is higher....

Or allow people to vary their usage and smooth out the national grid.

We’re getting a 10 kWh battery installed this week which can charge and discharge from the grid, so we can charge when it’s cheaper and use the battery when the unit cost is higher….

I am sure that is wonderful for you and how nice of you to pay for energy infrastructure whilst the energy companies are busy optmising profits. I think you miss my point entirely. How is Mr 15k a year in a microflat going to afford any of that? Or any of the vast majority of british people who are on less than 20k a year?

molgrips
Full Member

If we weren’t rolling them out, the complainers would be complaining in 10 years’ time about how antiquated our infrastructure is.

Smart meters aren't infrastructure.

I think you miss my point entirely. How is Mr 15k a year in a microflat going to afford any of that? Or any of the vast majority of british people who are on less than 20k a year?

He can't, but he can choose to use the washing machine / tumble drier when the grid is under utilised and be rewarded for his efforts with cheaper electricity.....

They have already run trials of smart pricing inc paying users 68p per kWh to use electricity when the grid has too much generated capacity and not enough users.

He can’t, but he can choose to use the washing machine / tumble drier when the grid is under utilised and be rewarded for his efforts with cheaper electricity…..

Again you miss my point. we are talking about two different concepts. You are talking about smoothing out demand, but I am talking it will be individual pricing to screw individual users. Otherwise why would they need smart meters at all, they could just measure the local grid and offer a cheapepr price at the low use time. You don't need smart meters to do that in any way. Translation, he won't be able to afford to use his washing machine or heating or cooking when he needs it, as they will know his habits and screw him for them.

we are talking about two different concepts.

Yep, I'm talking about reality and you seem to be off on a paranoid delusion....

They've run trails of smart meters + smart tariffs and the result was people saved money and the grid was less stressed - it was a win win...

There's zero evidence of smart tariffs being used to 'screw everyone over'...

they could just measure the local grid and offer a cheapepr price at the low use time.

Houses would need a meter that records the time they use the energy so that they can be billed for the amount they used during that low use/cheap time.... Oh wait. That's a smart meter!

Smart meters really are an insight into the asylum.

Personally I'm more concerned about the fact my inverters made by the Chinese.

Infact so is the smart meter more than likely.

If any of what you are suggesting came to fruition.....you'd see folks bypassing the meter left right and center .....it's actually stupendously easy to do if you were so inclined.

How is Mr 15k a year in a microflat going to afford any of that? Or any of the vast majority of british people who are on less than 20k a year?

I can't help feeling you don't really care about Mr 15k's electricity bill and how he'll pay it, he's just a handy straw man...

Smart meters are an awful invasion of privacy that will lead to an awful system where the energy providers will use their knwoledge of your usage to do individual pricing

Perhaps I'm just incredibly naive but I can't see a scenario where number 21 is forced to pay a higher night rate overnight due to having an EV, and number 22 is forced to pay a higher day rate due to home working and being in all day, and number 46 is just hung out to dry as they don't have mains gas and therefore can will pay top dollar 24/7 for their electric heating.

Especially seeing as it's a regulated market and there is competition and turnover of customers between energy companies...

I expect the articles about prepayment meters are due to people getting sucked in by the viral 'don't pay your bill' trend and got caught out that going prepayment no longer required a warrant and physical meter change...I expect (if there aren't already) rules to come in about providing a statutory notice period before you end up on prepayment.

PS Considering applying for a smart meter, although I'm expecting a minor battle soon as I now have a company EV van charging on my drive and they will want to put my direct debit up despite my employer paying the EV charging direct to my electricity account each month...apparently top ups aren't taken in to account when calculating the direct debit...

I think I get what 5plusn8 is getting at, though not sure we are there yet.

Companies exist to make profit and that's it. See also: Cambridge analytica/Facebook. Some piece of work will always be willing to go too far for a few extra bucks.

Wasnt there an a thing that in the 50's, Ford realised that there was a deadly issue with a recently released car but they calculated that it would be cheaper to pay the estimated death lawsuits than recall and fix the problem?

The Edsel? Or was that the Pinto in the 70s?

Sorry squirrelking, I don't remember.

In other news, I still have a lump on my thigh from 2018 from that ride we had!

Otherwise why would they need smart meters at all, they could just measure the local grid and offer a cheapepr price at the low use time. You don’t need smart meters to do that in any way.

As stated above, how would they measure who and by how much I/we/they took advantage of the offer of a "cheapepr" price at low use times? Oh, a smart meter maybe? Smart meters give a read / price every 30mins (octopus Agile tariff) so for a number of years now have been able to do exactly that. Day / night rate is old hat, I can have even better rates at 3pm, 8pm or 1am if I just make minor changes to usage. There's even devices/software now that can cherry pick the very cheapest slots to charge your stuff or run your stuff, when the rates are even "cheapepr". Sometimes they even pay you (ie minus prices at certain times were not uncommon in the good old days). TBH I've no problem with the tinfoil hat brigade, the rest of us might continue to benefit from cheap price slots for longer.

pandhandj
Free Member

Wasnt there an a thing that in the 50’s, Ford realised that there was a deadly issue with a recently released car but they calculated that it would be cheaper to pay the estimated death lawsuits than recall and fix the problem?

Sort of- they not only didn't recall the pinto, they also chose not to fix the issue for future cars even though it'd have cost buttons. Not just because of lawsuits, they calculated the total cost including the $5.08 cost to retrofit every existing car and $2.35 per future car (they knew this exactly, because the canadian cars already had the fix). But they also spent more on lobbying to fight and then to delay safety standards than the recall would have cost. And because they delayed the fix, the recall was massively more expensive than it had to be.

But what it really came down to was that Henry Ford II was massively against safety regulations, and considered that it'd be a massive defeat to recall the car in the face of political and public pressure. He'd spoken about simply closing Ford down if the government interfered any more with how they built cars, and that it was an assault on customer freedom etc etc... and that auto safety was entirely the responsibility of the driver, especially post-crash safety. (he could be swayed on "cars shouldn't cause crashes" but he was just an absolute zealot on "cars should protect you in a crash", because what does it matter if a car explodes or not post crash, if the crash wasn't the car's fault? "if we have to close down some production because we don’t meet standards we’re in for real trouble in this country.” It's doubly bizarre because in a lot of ways Ford II was a pretty forward looking, reasonable person but on this one thing he was absolutely mental.

And it almost worked- they managed to delay the regulatory change that'd finally cause the recall almost for the whole life of the Pinto. The industry and government collusion was incredible... It's a pretty amazing story overall and way more interesting than the simplified version.

In other news, I still have a lump on my thigh from 2018 from that ride we had!

Holy crap was it that long ago?

Hope the new job worked out!

well, got gas/electric meters fitted this morning and I'm in the turning lights on/off phase to see the numbers change...

I had smart meters fitted about 6 months ago. They seems to send data to my provider OK but the in home display has never connected/worked. I've contacted them several times but just get "we are aware of the issue and working to get it resolved. Due to complexity we can't offer a timescale". Arseholes.

I've just logged a complaint and received a tracking number. Let's see if that provides any motivation to fix the thing!

The BG 'Contact us' chat facility is useless!