You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Compared to something like a VW Caddy van?
I prefer the idea of something like a Freelander for bike transport, winter daily driving and the odd bit of stealth camping pre/post a days riding. But is the reality just that it'll be a lot more faff?
Ideally want something that I can either lift a bike straight into the back of (with rear seats down/removed), or take the front wheel off at most and fire it in upright with a fork mount on the floor. Occasionally I might want to kip alongside the bike for one night but I'm only short so that's possibly in most things!
Main criteria is that it's as car-like as possible to drive in terms of size/convenience. I'm used to daily driving some fairly uncomfortable cars so I'm not fussed about luxury & mod-cons, more keen to have something that drives as much like a car as possible. Feel free to bombard me with pictures or good/bad experiences of doing the same.
As a curve ball, I did think about a cheap small 4x4 with a roof tent also. But I'm not sure the reality of that lives up to the Insta #vanlife lifestyle propaganda.
Smallish 4x4s are generally terrible for interior space, get a small MPV instead.
It'll have more length, more head room and will drive more like a car.
And cost less to keep on the road (fuel, insurance and servicing).
If you're only sleeping for night at a time (and it's just you), I'd just sleep on the passenger seat with it fully reclined and get something like an Octavia estate and chuck the bike (I used to the take the front wheel off) + gear in the back with the rear seats down
I doubt that you'll find a 'small' 4x4 that'll meet your brief. I've a current model Forester, will (just) hold my Aeris or Rise, wheels on but the bars want to interfere with the roof and there's bugger all space for any other kit.- don't forget that the boot level is raised in 4x4's, the headroom is about the same as normal cars. No way are you gouing to be able to stand a bike up inside anything small.
On the other hand, I've also got an old Bongo 4x4 which I somehow manage to get mot'ed each year, and is ideal for what you're describing, other than the 'drive like a car' bit, or the fuel consumption.
Your best bet really though is to get a car/van that meets all your other requirements, then stick some off-roadish tyres on it for getting in and out of muddy fields and avoiding too many punctures from sharp edged stones. Far more sensible.
i have an old Peugeot Partner Escapade (Berlingo) that does what you ask. It has +30mm suspension compared to a normal Berlingo and an engine bash plate so can do light off-road.
You can get 'boot jump' - bed/storage/cooking pull out system, IIRC Campal do a split / one person version so you can store a bike as well.
Iirc the later XTR Berlingo has a locking front diff so with Cross Climate tyres would be good for light off road/grass fields.
I also have a Volvo XC90 which is massive when the rear seats are dropped.
Edited to add - I've had a roof tent and they are a faff, look great on Insta but the reality of unbending the rods, folding/tucking, shoving the cover on, tightening straps. When not in use it's 60kg bolted to the roof. Until a scroat unbolts it....
4×4 with a roof tent...but I’m only short
from the previous roof tent thread, you may struggle to install and remove by yourself; if that will be an issue.
Skoda Octavia Scout?
I’ve got a Vitara 4x4 - there’s no way I could get a bike standing up in the back. I’d echo comments about needing a 4x4 unless you’re driving off-road - a decent set of tyres like Cross Climates will handle virtually all tarmac driving conditions. Ford Tourneo Connect and VW Caddy comes with AWD options though.
Why a 4x4 particularly?
If you're only short I assume your bike is also small. Mrs brains' goes in her panda 4x4 with the front wheel off. Mine less so but I recon I could manage it - previously had an xl 5 29er in it with a week's gear. Slept in a pop up tent with a camp bed like this one Which I'd much rather than in the car to be honest.
Assuming you do want to sleep in the car but the 4x4 doesn't have any real basis to it (because it often doesn't) then my old c3 Picasso would take an xl mtb, front wheel off and upright behind the drivers seat, passenger seat would then fold forward to give a level load about 2.3m long right up to the dash so you'd just want a board or something to cover the gaps.
RAV4 (4th gen) will take a bike upright with the front wheel off, well did when the bike was 150mm travel, no longer possible now it's upped to 170mm. And it's not exactly small. But not stupidly big either.
i have an old Peugeot Partner Escapade (Berlingo) that does what you ask. It has +30mm suspension compared to a normal Berlingo and an engine bash plate so can do light off-road.
Has it? - I've got the exact same model as you and never even noticed it had either of those things - although it does have a bit of off-roady-styling going on. I thought all that was cosmetic though- never realised there was a difference in spec otherwise
great off road though, I've had it scrabbling up and down frosty rocky stalkers tracks above Gruinard bay without any complaints. The French seem to really know how to do off-road capable cars and know that it doesnt require all wheel drive.
You will struggle to find one in the UK but Renault made a 4x4 Kangoo which might suit. Like this
VW also do a 4motion version of the Caddy which sometimes come up for sale. eg.
Has it? – I’ve got the exact same model as you and never even noticed it had either of those things – although it does have a bit of off-roady-styling going on. I thought all that was cosmetic though- never realised there was a difference in spec otherwise
Yep - the shocks and springs are different part numbers to a normal Partner/Blingno. +30mm on the front, +3mm on the rear compared to a Berlingo. Also steel sump guard, the fuel lines are protected and light guards.
A Nissan Pathfinder would be a good bike lugger/stealth camper but they're not very fuel efficient or car-like to drive.
Outback ticks most of those boxes.
29r goes in the back, wheels on
Folds totally flat in the back, so comfy to sleep in.
Not at the same time obvs.
I had a Subaru outback and loved it, literally would go anywhere in snow when on winter tyres whilst being very very comfy to drive and also spacious. The back seats fold perfectly flat for a long load area, albeit limited height.
However, my other half's Toyota Yaris on winters will do 99% of what the Subaru will do in snow.
We've now got a Skoda yeti 2wd diesel (4wd available if you really insist). The load area is really tall and most of the bodywork is like a box so no low narrow boot aperture - a 29er will go in vertical with back wheel on and front wheel off with only 2 of the three rear seats folded. The rear seats are removable individually for a large load area. I've not tried sleeping in it but there are bed conversions readily available for the back. Good so far but not as nice to drive as the outback - not just handling, comfort and driver ergonomics are so good on the outback.
Mitsubishi Delica gets my vote, spotted a lovely 5th gen one at the weekend that had me browsing the classifieds since! 4 motion Caddy Maxi will be capable but most are low specced ex workhorses.
However, my other half’s Toyota Yaris on winters will do 99% of what the Subaru will do in snow.
I concur.
Ours used to do 8 miles of Highland twisty single-track - on winter or all seasons would go and (more importantly) stop way better than behemoth 4x4's.
There’s always the Jimni, with decent mud/snow tyres, or chunky treads, they’re like mountain goats, they can go pretty much anywhere. Take the rear seats out, and I believe the front seats can lay flat as well. Not the most well-mannered road car, but fine for steady driving, they’re just a bit ‘choppy’ is all.
The latest iteration of the Jimni is now being sold in the U.K. without rear seats, as a commercial, to get around the CO2 limits that Suzuki were forced to comply with. Although why they didn’t just use an engine that is compliant I don’t know, they sell plenty of other cars here, like the Ignis.
I was going to advise the Suzi Jimni, some farmers round here use them, as they are cheapish and they work.
It's just the posh boys that go for the landrovers. The kind that buy barn conversions.
Freelander (2007+ model) boot is tiny. We had one as a work pool car and I couldn't believe it the first time I opened the tailgate. The boot floor was at my waist height and I'm 6'2". Massive vehicle and less boot space than a Golf.
As others have said, get an MPV or Berlingo style. I have a 2010 Peugeot 5008. Rear seats fold flat, fits an XL 29er in upright with front wheel off and dropper down. With the front seat right forward there's about 6' length to lay down in. A bit short for me but you say you're short so should fair better.
Thanks for all the ideas and pointers! I was sort of expecting that a freelander size 4x4 would be fairly useless (or no more useful than an estate) in the grand scheme of things, I'm just not sure I can bring myself to drive a people carrier or van around by myself when I'm not on biking trips. This is entirely vanity/self-awareness being a single man in his mid-30's not an actual logical issue!
Currently I have an Impreza Sti Hatchback, which is pretty practical once you're used to 24mpg (which I am, as it's more economical than anything I've had previously!) but while I'm happy with the bike on the roof for shorter/single day trips it would be nice to have a bike inside without wrecking the interior or having to move everything around all the time. Particularly if stopping somewhere overnight or even for fuel/food etc. as I don't like leaving the bike on the car unattended. Being able to kip in the back would be a bonus, but not necessary.
I absolutely love the new Jimny, I really regret not getting one when they first came out as they're now quite difficult/expensive to find now they're only available as commercials.
Maybe a cheaper Forester/Legacy/Outback might be the answer as I'll be a lot less precious about it, and they're cheap enough that I could leave it at work/on the road when I'm not using it. 4x4 isn't entirely necessary but I have got quite used to it as a daily, and do seem to spend a lot of time in muddy fields when doing trail runs/XC races etc. and it's nice being the one that isn't stuck at the end of the day.
Dunno about a bike inside but I saw this thread and it's a vaguely relevant link for here - https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/the-little-jimny-project-camper.50447/
A jimny is way too small to comfortably sleep in. 4wd estate should do you well if you want space and grip. Plenty of high performance ones (golf r, v70r, RS4/rs6 etc) if you want something to prove your youth. Both wheels off to sleep alongside a bike but flat floor makes it comfy
Jimny is tiny. You’ll never get a bike in there without pretty much dismantling it let alone sleep in it. At 6’2” I can almost reach the rear window from the front seats!
Ours has no rear seats but it’s still a very small space.
I have a (old style) Defender 110 Station Wagon and with rear seats folded forward there's only just enough room for my 29er to fit in at an angle. Two bikes needs front wheels to come off.
In terms of car like/ULEZ compliance, not so much, but I've done 500 mile days in it without feeling particularly tired at the end (mine is a later one and has*gasps* carpets to help sound proofing/stop heat soak).
Given how things are progressing with roof tents I'd probably go for one of those but it's not as under the radar as sleeping in a van in a layby and they're not cheap.
You'll pay a price in terms of fuel economy for a 4x4 even if it's a part time system but if you don't do much annual mileage it may not be an issue.
@benp1 that Jimny camper is fantastic!
Economy isn't a great concern, I only do 60 miles a week to work & back and often cycle in anyway in the summer.
I might have to divert my attention onto larger estate cars, or just buy a cheapish Caddy van. Or perhaps persuade my parents they need one for their antiques business and it would be best if I keep it in regular use (and full of mud). Plenty of options to think about between now and the winter.
2nd the Yeti option.
freaking ace little car.
You’ll pay a price in terms of fuel economy for a 4×4 even if it’s a part time system but if you don’t do much annual mileage it may not be an issue.
my outback diesel claims ~45-47mpg but in reality its about 40. low mileage I'd get a petrol one and suck up the difference.
I was sort of expecting that a freelander size 4×4 would be fairly useless (or no more useful than an estate)
4x4s are generally smaller in load area than estates unless you get a massive one.
If you’re only short I assume your bike is also small. Mrs brains’ goes in her panda 4×4 with the front wheel off. Mine less so but I recon I could manage it
Ok I am genuinely interested how this feat is achieved. I cannot figure a way to tetris a bike with any wheel on in my panda 4x4s!
a single man in his mid-30’s not an actual logical issue!
Not a Berlingo then - great little car/van things but not for anyone remotely image conscious!
Berlingo - "The car everyone needs - the car nobody wants" (I don't work in advertising).
their antiques business
Volvo estate {closes thread}.
Pick your compromise. Do you want 4wd or 4x4, do you want space or go anywhere ability, do you want it to drive like a car? Do you want 30mpg?
All these tend to be mutually exclusive for reasons unless you drop some serious cash on the problem.
4wd estates will do most of what you ask but I get the feeling you 'want a 4x4'...
Highly recommend a Hilux Surf for chucking bikes in and sleeping in the back of but they're getting on a bit now.
Like one of the previous posts the Delica D5 is one of the few cars that's piqued my interest for a while..
Agree with the above, there’s going to have to be some compromises somewhere. I’ve got a current shape 4WD 5 tourer which is a big car and with the seats down is an ideal companion for MTB/camping trips (just back from my 1st and it was great). However, I wouldn’t dream of getting the bike in alongside me for a nights kip. Interestingly, my SiL has an XC90 which is a big old motor and the two cars are nearly identical in length at a smidge under 5m. Obviously the Volvo has a bit more height but not a ton more useable space in the rear IMO.
has anyone said Bongo or Delica?
A6 Quattro?
Not exactly small, but if you don't need more than 2 seats - Discovery Commercial
Big enough to sleep in, with a bike and won't find a more capable 4x4
Volvo estate {closes thread}.
A 9xx series estate.
I got overtaken by someone with a small rowing boat in the boot/backseats once.
Big enough to sleep in, with a bike and won’t find an engine more capable of snapping it's crank
Fixed it for you!
Just get a 1.9tdi / 2.OTD Caddy Maxi, some steelies and chunky tyres, save a ton - o - cash.
lift a bike straight into the back of (with rear seats down/removed) - YES,
take the front wheel off at most and fire it in upright with a fork mount on the floor. - YES
Occasionally I might want to kip alongside the bike for one night - YES
as car-like as possible to drive in terms of size/convenience - YES
fairly uncomfortable - NO
not fussed about luxury & mod-cons, more keen to have something that drives as much like a car as possible - YES + car speed limits.
Fixed it for you!
For all the horror stories you hear - had is since 30k, now on 123k and barely had any more issues than any other vehicle. The crank could go tomorrow, or it could go to 200k and no issues with regular maintenance. Keeping on top of the oil changes is supposed to be the big one tp look after the crank. I have a reasonable source for a rebuild in any case.
For all the horror stories you hear – had is since 30k, now on 123k and barely had any more issues than any other vehicle. The crank could go tomorrow, or it could go to 200k and no issues with regular maintenance. Keeping on top of the oil changes is supposed to be the big one tp look after the crank. I have a reasonable source for a rebuild in any case.
LrTime on Youtube is worth watching for Disco3&4's. Humourous German husband and wife repair their own TDV6 and end up fixing other people's as well. Lots of focus on the oil pump revisions and oil pressure.
Roof tents have their drawbacks, but compared to a lot of camper conversions make a lot more sense.
I had a Berlingo and I think if it hadn't been scrapped for stupid French mechanical design reasons I'd have put a roof tent on it (that and it had a full length sunroof which limited options a bit).
Delica D5
They did make a diesel, you might need to import one from Japan as most were v6 petrol.
Mitsubishi Outlander underneath, and far cooler.
Remove the rear LH seats, bike in fully assembled, sleep on the right.
We had a 1994 Delica, bought off my BiL who'd done a simple camper bed frame inside. But not space for much else. Bikes on a rack on the tow bar. For a half-width bed there would be plenty of space for the bike inside. Moderately popular in NZ as they are seriously capable off road, which is great for shuttling dodgy roads for epic mtb shenanigans and ski fields.
4 gears, and thirsty, no idea what newer ones are like.
@rickmeister I think you've nailed it. I do just need to buy a Caddy. Although those Delica's are a strong contender!
In terms of others comments on picking a compromise you're absolutely right. In order of priority for me it's:
Conveniently chuck a bike in the back without wrecking it/the vehicle, ideally with both wheels on.
Drive as much like a car as possible. (As in sit comfortably at 70mph on a motorway, and not be massive for parking/navigating small country lanes. I don't mind lack of mod-cons).
Be slightly more comfortable than sleeping in a ditch occasionally.
4wd/AWD (in the not getting stuck in a field sense, not the going greenlaning at the weekend sense).
As mentioned I'm really not fussed on economy, as I only do 60 miles/week normally and any bike trips it's just part of the cost of a weekend away/holiday for me.
Why pay the vw tax? A long combo/rifter/Berlingo would be great too
My mate had an old RWD Mercedes saloon with winter tyres we’d be over taking 4x4’s in the snow. He used to work for Pro-drive and do a bit of rallying, but still, you get the picture.