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Our wee cockapoo is able to go outside now that he’s had his jags. Thickish snow has curtailed much so far but the thaw is on. He’s quite used to his collar and lead but have popped a harness on a few times and it doesn’t seem very comfy on him.
Google seems divided in which to use, pros and cons, any thoughts ?
Oh, and the gratuitous cute pic 🤪
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My dog trainer friend is very anti harness. Says it encourages pulling.
We have a pup of similar age. She won't walk confidently on a harness with us but is perfect on a collar. I'd imagine it will be down to the individual dog though and your own persistance
We used one of these with Fin from an early age, can also be looped over her nose to stop pulling.
She probably dosent need it now but we always have one with us just in case
A bag of treats in my left pocket also ensured she walked to heel most of the time and still does even without the treats
Told by vets not to use a collar until our puppy was 4 months. They also recommended using a harness as it reduces the risk for neck injuries.
You need to let their necks get stronger. Pulling can be dealt with later.
Anyway, we still use a harness for our dogs - ruffwear webmasters - as the carry handle is incredibly useful for getting a better hold on the dog if they need to be carried.
My dog trainer friend is very anti harness. Says it encourages pulling.
You seen many police dogs and guide dogs pulling recently?
Seeing as I’m sure you’re now going to spend months training him not to pull, I don’t see any reason why you’d need a harness. Ziva is 40kgs and has a collar and has only ever had a collar. It’s not like he’s going to be huge and risk doing injury to his neck either so collar all the way.
I can't help but feel that the current popularity of harnesses is simply a fad, or more cynically, a means of parting you from your hard-earned.
I used a Halti-style training setup to stop my lab pulling on the lead. As soon as she could walk without pulling we took it off. She hasn't worn a collar, harness or anything else since she was about 6 months old. I carry a slip lead to drop on her if we see a dog approaching that's on a lead, and to walk her along the road, or through fields with livestock. Admittedly, all of our exercise is on open ground where she can be safely allowed to be lead free, but heel and recall training is far more important than a trendy (and pointless) neoprene "Julius K9" .
Oh yes, there's a left wing academic conspiracy to encourage you to take your hard earned cash and spend it on harnesses.
The harnesses I use are incredibly useful for proper days out in the hills where you might be traversing terrain or climbing over walls/gates/stiles that might injure the dog.
Admittedly, all of our exercise is on open ground where she can be safely allowed to be lead free, but heel and recall training is far more important than a trendy (and pointless) neoprene “Julius K9” .
And not everyone might be walking on flat open terrain with no roads or livestock nearby.
She hasn’t worn a collar, harness or anything else since she was about 6 months old.
You do know that it's illegal for you to be out and about with your dog without any identification tags, yes?
I’d go harness for a young pup, if nothing else as said above they need to develop neck strength and pulling back on a collar on a puppy isn’t a great idea. Not sure if it was a scare tactic but the trainer we had said she’d had at least two owners break their pups neck with a sharp pull on a lead when the dog lurched towards something.
So you can correctly point out that your dogs and your circumstances justify a harness. And exactly how may bichons and french bulldogs need hoisting over barbed wire? That's what I'm on about, the absolutely pointless proliferation of a harness designed for a working dog being sold to the sort of folk that only pootle round the local park.
Proper days out, left wing conspiracies...... dear me!
Oh, and good stealth edit!
Good harnesses are worth it, you can use them to restrain your dog in the car (as you are legally required to do so) - so they don't go flying through your windscreen or knock you unconscious if you have a crash.
How many STWers do you think have Bichons? Cockapoos are proper outdoor dogs, with the same amount of energy as a working cocker.
You do know that it’s illegal for you to be out and about with your dog without any identification tags, yes?
I shall report myself to the relevant powers that be.......
Our vet had no issues with collars / didnt say to avoid them when the puppy was young.
The puppy training classes I went to said to get a half check collar as the first thing to do. Very quickly Molly got used to the collar and a little tug (not a huge yank) reminded her not to pull. After about 3-4 months I changed to a normal collar and broadly she doesn’t pull.
I’m not meaning to be stereotypical here but most dogs I see with harnesses on round here seem to be badly trained and constantly straining at the leash. Also the kind of dogs that lunge at you or bark when I walk past them with Molly (who broadly ignores them all / never barks on the lead at other dogs).
Edit - I didn’t think your dog had to have an id tag on their collar if they are microchipped?
Good harnesses are worth it, you can use them to restrain your dog in the car (as you are legally required to do so) – so they don’t go flying through your windscreen or knock you unconscious if you have a crash.
Or transport them in a Lintran in the back of the pickup.
I'm not arguing with you to be contrary, or criticising your choice of harness. I'm sure you're a perfectly responsible dog-owner that has made some informed choices, but I see dozens of dogs wearing them that simply don't need to .
Agreed but this is STW, most people here are quite outdoorsy and few people have pickup trucks.
Proper harnesses with enough chest/tummy support so that a handle can be used - are very useful, versatile bits of kit if you're an outdoorsy type with a car - not to mention that the evidence that collars can cause injury is increasing. It's not worth spending the money on a decent one like the webmaster whilst the puppies young, but it's definitely worth getting them used to one.
They were even useful when we lived in London, as you are meant to pick your dog if you use the escalators on the underground.
Good feedback, lots to think about.
evidence that collars can cause injury is increasing
.......which is why mine doesn't wear one.......
or anything else that can be caught in undergrowth, or wherever she goes whilst working or training.
We use a harness on our cockerpoo and works a treat. Doesn’t need to be expensive - we have found the Red Dingo range to be excellent. Note though leave the harness out of chewing range when not in use. A cockerpoo puppy will have no issues destroying it in seconds 🙂
or anything else that can be caught in undergrowth, or wherever she goes whilst working or training.
I went halfway and just keep the id tag attached to the harness. If they entered water to work, I'd consider doing the same as you though.
We have our cockapoo on a collar and lead. Then out in the proper hills he's got one of those rucksack things that are like dog panniers. Carries his own water and snacks, carriers his own shit out, and it also doubles as a harness that we can lift him over styles/up scrambles that he can't manage.
evidence that collars can cause injury is increasing
Yep, take a look at tracheal collapse and then work out for yourself whether a collar is a good idea.
Good general advice here: https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-advice/training/walking-nicely-training
The closer to the head the more control you have: most control head collar type (Halti or see Tracey's link for other example), least control rear attached harness (eg Julius K9 type). How much control you need depends on dog-owner combo.
For your dog to learn that tension on the lead equals no movement and a slack lead means you can move forward (ie the fun goes on) will make walking 100% more pleasurable. Provided you are consistent in stopping as soon as there is tension on the lead and not move forward until your dog has released the tension, your dog will learn this with little or no other input (no need to say anything). Voice or food rewards can speed up the process but are not necessary. It does mean you may not get very far and especially that it can take a very long time to get home again! If you can still find a copy of 'How to behave so my dog behaves' by Sophia Yin it will tell you in great detail how this works (classical and operant conditioning and shaping).
Enjoy the process, they grow up all too quickly!
Harness equals lack of control, can’t see the point unless the dog is too strong for the owner. Even then every time I’ve watched those dog whisperer programmes where the owner finds it impossible to walk their dog they instantly remove their harness and use a normal lead, sometimes that works almost instantly.
Which ever way you decide if you want to take him with you on the bike when he is old enough time spent now with a few basic commands will pay back 10 fold when your out on the bike.
You need to be confident with him on these before progressing to riding.
We spent a lot of time in the field with Fin and a washing line working on these.
I was suprized when I watched a programme on Friday about Country Auctions and that they had auctions for working Border Collies, one of the trainers had a puppy on a long length of thin rope tied to his leg. He said he spends up to an hour a day training each dog. It was great to see what they could do as a young dog.
The dog will enjoy it as much as you.
You seen many police dogs and guide dogs pulling recently?
Erm... at one time every day of my sodding life. It’s no longer my role but the harness went on for one thing & that was tracking; the whole process of putting his harness on was pretty much like flicking a switch in his head & telling him what the next game is. To put his harness on for anything other than that would just confuse him and undo the training.
For every day life it was broad collar and lead or a slip.
That said, a working animal is a very different thing to a pet. My pet lab was started on a broad collar. She was from a working line and totally nuts so a colleague suggested a half slip which transformed her on the lead. Lead on - perfect heel work. Lead off - totally insane. God I miss her ☹️
Harness equals lack of control, can’t see the point unless the dog is too strong for the owner.
I wouldn’t agree that harness is good to control a strong dog in the way that you seem to suggest, a harness by its nature actually allows the dog more traction and a strong dog could easily pull you over with a harness if not used properly
I think it does depend on the dog and how they are trained, but isn’t that the case with many aspects of dog behaviour?
Our previous retriever had cervical spine issues at about 8 years old which may or may not have been started by the use of a lead on the collar but were certainly exacerbated by it so we got a harness. She got used to it very quickly and she lived till she was three weeks shy of seventeen. When we got our next retriever we put him into a harness with two lead attachment points at about four months. After some hard work with lead training he is generally very good, and certainly doesn’t pull. We would not use a lead on the collar on his normal walks now.
Collar for us. Harness means we are going in the car, so when that goes on she doesn't want to walk anywhere and waits by the car door!
Also think about if you want to do something like Canicross Harness = Pulling, Collar = No Pulling
Make a choice and you train them accordingly. For using both allow an easy switch of behaviour for her.
You do know that it’s illegal for you to be out and about with your dog without any identification tags, yes?"
Is it?
Yes it is a legal requirement to have a collar in a public place, and it must have identification on it. I think the maximum fine for non compliance is £5000
From the RSPCA
● Collar and tag The law (Control of Dogs Order 1992) states that your dog must wear a collar and a tag when in public. The tag must have your name and address on; your telephone number can be helpful too. Without a collar it is possible that your dog may be seized and treated as a stray. You should always keep the contact details on the tag uptodate.
● Microchip From 2015 in Wales and 2016 in England the law will make is compulsory for owners to have their dogs microchipped (if they are over 8 weeks of age). At the RSPCA we microchip all our dogs before they are rehomed but under law the owner is responsible for keeping the contact details uptodate and failure to do so can result in a fine. That means if you move home or change your phone number you need to update the details.There are exemptions:
from the control of dogs order 1992Wearing of collars by dogs
2.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) below, every dog while in a highway or in a place of public resort shall wear a collar with the name and address of the owner inscribed on the collar or on a plate or badge attached to it.
(2) Paragraph (1) above shall not apply to—
(a)any pack of hounds,
(b)any dog while being used for sporting purposes,
(c)any dog while being used for the capture or destruction of vermin,
(d)any dog while being used for the driving or tending of cattle or sheep,
(e)any dog while being used on official duties by a member of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces or Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise or the police force for any area,
(f)any dog while being used in emergency rescue work, or
(g)any dog registered with the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association
I guess this means that you could remove a collar whilst training or working a dog, but it should be put on once the activity was complete?
Ive always used a harness on mine, they just seem better/safer to me.
nickjb
My dog trainer friend is very anti harness. Says it encourages pulling.
Then I'd be taking any further advise from them with a pinch of salt, harnesses are fantastic and stop pulling. That's not to say there a bad harness out there, my partner recommends these guys: https://www.dog-games-shop.co.uk/ as it's two piece harness, they can supply you different sized front/back piece, as not all dogs fit a small/medium/large.
Yes it is a legal requirement to have a collar in a public place, and it must have identification on it. I think the maximum fine for non compliance is £5000
From the RSPCA● Collar and tag The law (Control of Dogs Order 1992) states that your dog must wear a collar and a tag when in public. The tag must have your name and address on; your telephone number can be helpful too. Without a collar it is possible that your dog may be seized and treated as a stray. You should always keep the contact details on the tag uptodate.
● Microchip From 2015 in Wales and 2016 in England the law will make is compulsory for owners to have their dogs microchipped (if they are over 8 weeks of age). At the RSPCA we microchip all our dogs before they are rehomed but under law the owner is responsible for keeping the contact details uptodate and failure to do so can result in a fine. That means if you move home or change your phone number you need to update the details.There are exemptions:
from the control of dogs order 1992Wearing of collars by dogs
2.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) below, every dog while in a highway or in a place of public resort shall wear a collar with the name and address of the owner inscribed on the collar or on a plate or badge attached to it.
(2) Paragraph (1) above shall not apply to—
(a)any pack of hounds,
(b)any dog while being used for sporting purposes,
(c)any dog while being used for the capture or destruction of vermin,
(d)any dog while being used for the driving or tending of cattle or sheep,
(e)any dog while being used on official duties by a member of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces or Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise or the police force for any area,
(f)any dog while being used in emergency rescue work, or
(g)any dog registered with the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association
So not strictly illegal, then.
RSPA usual crap. It's not illegal to not have a collar.
Anyway, puppy chain choker works wonders.
Harness' are not a great aid to stopping pulling.
So not strictly illegal, then.
Only if training or working with a dog. Otherwise, yes illegal.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/901/article/2/made
And para 3 of the same order
Offences
3. The owner of a dog or the person in charge of a dog who, without lawful authority or excuse, proof of which shall lie on him, causes or permits the dog to be in a highway or in a place of public resort not wearing a collar as prescribed in article 2(1) above shall be guilty of an offence against the Animal Health Act 1981.
The important word is ‘shall’ wear a collar in a public place.
The chances of being caught and fined over this? very low I would imagine especially as it is for council officers to enforce rather than the police. However the reason is to protect the public and the dog.