You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Hi
A trades guy that I was using did a reasonably large job for me. Was happy with the general standard of the work so started to agree a pipeline of additional (extra cost) jobs with him. As all seemed well, I paid in full for the original job (I know!!).
Six months later and I'm yet to see him again.
I have issued the Letter before Action giving him a set period to come back and complete the original works. He refuses and is aggressive if he ever answers the phone (I have to use different numbers for him to even pick up).
My planned action is to now employ another trades guy to finish the original job then claim against the first guy for the extra costs, my costs and a day's lost work (limited to 90 quid I believe).
Does all that seem reasonable. If anybody else has been down this route - what are the potential pitfalls?
Thanks
It can take 12mths and [b]lots[/b] of hours in completing the application, statement of case and personal witness statement for the simplest of cases. If you win my experience is that the other side can then further delay payment with relatively ridiculous assertions as to their inability to pay, which despite having blatantly lied to the court will go unchallenged, leading to the judge ordering payment by instalments over a year or more to put the case to bed.
I found the process satisfactory in terms of outcome but frustrating, slow, time consuming and payment terms utterly ridiculous considering the evidence presented.
Mediation is a quicker alternative and will be suggested but in my case the other side wouldn't engage. I'm a trained mediator so if you were both interested in trying I'd be happy to have preliminary discussions (email in profile, no charge at any point).
Have you got a written agreement as to the works that were to be undertaken and the price agreed signed by both parties? You will need to document that there was an agreement in place.
Issuing a Small claim is fairly straight forward on the Courts website, and it will often go one of two ways, as above where the court makes an damages award and orders payment following a hearing, or it may be that if he fails to file an acknowledgement of service or defence within 14 days of receipt of the proceedings you can simply apply to the Court for Judgment against him and enforce that.
If you need any assistance send me an email. pauljwhitlock at gmail. com
deepreddave - Member
It can take 12mths and lots of hours in completing the application, statement of case and personal witness statement for the simplest of cases. If you win my experience is that the other side can then further delay payment with relatively ridiculous assertions as to their inability to pay, which despite having blatantly lied to the court will go unchallenged, leading to the judge ordering payment by instalments over a year or more to put the case to bed.
If they 'can't' pay after a Small Claims Court judgement, then issue a winding up order...
[url= https://www.gov.uk/wind-up-a-company-that-owes-you-money/overview ]https://www.gov.uk/wind-up-a-company-that-owes-you-money/overview[/url]
You can apply to the court to close or ‘wind up’ a company if it can’t pay its debts. This is also known as compulsory liquidation.To wind up a company you must:
[list][*]be owed £750 or more[/*]
[*]be able to prove that the company can’t pay you[/*][/list]
bensales - Member
If they 'can't' pay after a Small Claims Court judgement, then issue a winding up order...
They can apply directly to have the original payment terms reviewed and the court has total discretion on that. If they don't comply then recourse is available via the usual avenues, bailiffs, distraint etc.
Thanks for the replies and offers of help.
I have a list of works but the that particular job was described purely as "kitchen fit". There were other jobs all listed as well and this guy was working with another tradesman (who is willing to be a witness as to what was and wasn't agreed verbally).
There is no chance of mediation - he won't even answer his phone! I suspect that he will ignore any chances offered by the system to defend his self.
In summary, looks like I'm weak on detail of the job (though have a witness) but he'd have to make an effort (unlikely) to counter my claims.
I'm willing to suffer the pain of the court system as it just grates that he can behave in this way...
What sort of figure are we talking here? Unless the figure is substantial I'd be inclined to write this down to experience.
I'm willing to suffer the pain of the court system as it just grates that he can behave in this way...
Good luck!
Its only a few hundred but its my few hundred, not his. If I go through with this my thinking is that he'll be less inclined to screw the next customer.
And if you lose?
Do not whatever you do forget to include your witness statement,
Without it the judge will not allow you to even enter in any testimony let alone any paperwork, facts, etc.
Seen it happen on too many occasions even when they other party is in real deep shit - the judge will dismiss the case due to no evidence.
I went to Citizens Advice who guided me through the procedure, which was a different case to yours. It may be worth booking to your local branch & going through it with them.
Sorry to hear this, if said trader gets a judgement against him how would a future customer like me know? I am looking for a fitter and been recommended someone but cannot find any history or reviews of their work.
Would a judgement show up via a Google search, thanks in advance.
Have you looked at MCOL (money claim online) I've used it successfully a couple of times, quick and easy (and cheap), nothing like whats being described above. As for being weak on detail, just be as concise as you can, the onus is then on him to respond properly.
If he's operating through a Ltd company, put both the name of the Ltd company, and his personal name on the claim form (look to seek the money from both). That way if you win the case and he decides to wind up the company then he'll still be personally liable should the judgement go against him.
Mcol is what I used. Lodging the claim is the easy part. There was more principle than money involved in my case too. It was interesting to see how the justice system resolved minor issues like this but it was frustrating and time consuming getting to the process end. The hourly rate I got wasn't worth it but I'd recommend it as an experience. I think.
Main pitfall is you probably won't get the money.
My story is that I worked for a month for a gardener on a large landscaping job. He didn't pay me - owed around £1100 so after chasing him for around 6 months I did the small claims court thing. He didn't contest it so I was awarded full judgement. At that stage apart from saying "Please pay me 'cos the court says you must", you don't have any further rights of enforcement.
So I claimed again in the high court. Again no contest and I was awarded the full amount. So now you can send in the bailiffs. Except the bailiffs can't take stuff needed for him to make his living, clothes, household appliances such as cooker/fridge etc and he said he had nothing else.
After several unsuccessful bailiff visits he just moved house and "disappeared" - he was renting the house he lived in. I then found him on Facebook under a different name and trading again under a different name. At that point I would have had to pretty much start the process again so I didn't bother.
If he doesn't want to pay, and it sounds like he doesn't, then he won't. Small claims court is great for claims against larger companies with a registered office and fixed base etc, but it's useless against a sole trader who is a bit slippery.
This guy has a house that he bought recently, with new neighbours, a new girlfriend etc. I doubt he'd want the baliffs knocking and taking the new flatscreen from the lovenest in full view of the street.
Is Money Claims Online the name for the small claims process or is it something entirely different?
Money Claims online is a streamlined process to allow people to file claims through in the Smalls Claims Court track as lawyers will no longer touch them
Its only a few hundred but its my few hundred, not his
I think you need to factor in the cost of your time in pursuing this...
cb - Member
This guy has a house that his Mum bought recently.
If he's slippery it might read as above or similar. Assets held by family members is a pretty common way of protecting against debt collection. Not many receivers etc are willing to pursue evidence as to the funds having been divested with that intention so it works.
If you have a friend with cheap access to Experian/Equifax then that's useful.
Yep, my guy had a new wife, kids, lived in a nice area etc. According to the bailiffs though everything in the house they could have taken belonged to his wife or kids or was an essential for living. Poor man had nothing in his own name. Despite a high court judgement I never received a penny.
If they 'can't' pay after a Small Claims Court judgement, then issue a winding up order...
Really not a good use of money in many cases and only for a company - bankruptcy for individuals is similar. Better to go for enforcement vs assets.
Winding up is expensive with some hefty court and government fees.
If you're considering it get proper legal and commercial advice.