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If you see a badly behaved child,ignore them and smack the parent.
It is after all ,completely their fault < smiley and wink emoticons removed >
I'd love to live in Loddrik's perfect world (which I doubt exists beyond his grey matter). I agree with 'some' of his views but delivering them in such a sanctimonious fashion is laughable.
Parents have legal and moral responsibilities to do their best for their kids - trying to argue that one way to raise a child is better than another is pompous and arrogant. Common sense dictates what is right and wrong and will differ in each case. No one here is advocating 'assault'!!
I've taken a slightly different approach...
I pretty much constantly smack my son, day in day out, only slowing down the frequency and velocity when he's well behaved.....
DrP
I'd love to live in Loddrik's perfect world (which I doubt exists beyond his grey matter). I agree with 'some' of his views but delivering them in such a sanctimonious fashion is laughable
We don't want you here, its fine just as it is.
The kind of force you'd use when smacking (open hand) a child would be laughable to an adult
It would still be assault as you dont actually have to harm them to assault them- perhaps I should demonstrate by slapping you across the face 😉
trying to argue that one way to raise a child is better than another is pompous and arrogant.
Tell that to the wests
No one here is advocating 'assault'!!
yet that is what it would be if you did it to an adult
[i]Keep trying to do it better.[/i]
For how long? Can you give me a timeframe?
Sorry Loddrik but my parenting skills not being as awesome as yours meant that at 18 months id failed in my education of my daughter about the rights and wrongs of biting objects including me. mind you i blame her too for not paying attention... MY reaction was instinctive as the sudden pain in my chest from the bite was unexpected and i would like it to have stopped... still shes five now and never bites anyone1 who knew??. I'm not a bad parent by the way and spend as much time with my kids as i possibly can (much nore than most dads i know) and i very rarely loose my temper, but being human i cant say never.
Good for you...
Disappointed. I thought this was about [b]smoking[/b] children.
Like kippers or in a rizla?
No I wouldn't and don't. Its simply inflicting physical pain on young children which makes any reasoning or justification irrelevant IMHO.
Like kippers or in a rizla?
Kippers, smoke them till they cry.
Our inability to differentiate successfully between a "smack" and "assault" (in both directions) is one area where we have let down children IMO.
Can't see the big deal myself with a smack in certain circumstance.
But equally I'm not sure I'd believe the parents that they've brought up great kids, hardly subjective are they. I bet loddriks kids are currently beating others up for their dinner money as we speak.
But equally I'm not sure I'd believe the parents that they've brought up great kids, hardly subjective are they.
That's a very good point, my two are right little g*ts!
It's illegal in pretty much all other European countries, and it is hard to argue that their kids are far worse behaved than UK kids. So there is clearly a way to bring up kids without smacking that (over a population) doesn't have a detrimental effect on behaviour.
The fact of it being legal here, means that people who do hit their children very regularly (ie. child abusers) may be able to get away with it as long as they don't bruise or scratch them.
http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/family/children/parental_advice/500558.html
loddrik what will you do if in 3-5yrs one of your children starts getting into trouble/goes off the rails?
Pour them a cup of Chamomile tea and suggest Yoga?
Most ridiculous statement you've [u]ever[/u] made and there is quite a canon to choose from.
I agree that loddrik is coming across a little sanctimonious and maybe smug but I agree with his sentiments 100%. My two are 9 and 14 and have never been smacked by me. I find communication, consistency and clear boundaries do the trick.
I think Loddrik's being spot on - I don't fully agree with what he's saying (as I'm on the other side of the smacking fence, so to speak), but I'm finding his posts far more urbanely-put than some of the sarcastic responses he's received on this topic.
One 'undred!
I wonder how many of your wives resort to the occasional smack?
Deprivation of internet is the new smacking.
I read that "if you aim to never smack your children, you'll probably smack them the right amount".
Thare have been occasions where I have smacked my children when they were younger. Reason now works, and internet deprivation.
And who would need to smack other people's kids. As any experienced parent knows, all kids are MUCH better behaved for other parents. Isn't that right Mrs Patterson?
As a not-entriely-unrelated aside, my bro just posted this on FB -
"Another one of those moments that makes me proud of my home town - tracksuited reprobate teaching his 2/3 year old son to lob two fingers at his (tracksuited) mate as he approaches. Now the kid is doing it to all passers by. Super. To be fair to mum though, she did threaten to 'break his f****n neck' if he did it again. So at least one of them is practising responsible parenting."
You can make as much or as little of that as you please.
Nobody needs to smack there child is a very week form of punishment and exposes any parents lack of parenting skills. I have never smacked any if my two boys never wanted to or had the need. They know how to behave and know the consequences if they don't ie lack of privileges etc. If you don't bring your children up to be caring and compassionate and know the boundaries then your making a rod for your own back. Plus it's far easier to have two wonderful respectful well mannered children.
Nope. Violence is not the answer.
How do you support this, given that evidence from behavioural psychology says that if delivered immediately, it is.
How do you support this, given that evidence from behavioural psychology says that if delivered immediately, it is.
Can you elaborate on that?
If you mean that violence will stop people doing something, then maybe.
However I don't believe that violence or the threat of it the best way to teach a child right from wrong.
I wonder how many of your wives resort to the occasional smack?
After a couple of days 'solo' I assumed she smoked it to get through the day 🙂
That said, neither of us have ever felt the need to smack them. Always seems to be through anger which can't be right. I do shop in Asda though 😉
Coyote I'm confused. Every child/situation is different. Congratulations that you don't have a lively/feisty/over-active child. At Uni I knew a couple of lads probably like yours and nicknamed them the 'personality twins'.
Now go and eat your lentils.
(Sorry you trolled me so vice versa).
How do you support this, given that evidence from behavioural psychology says that if delivered immediately, it is.
I believe you are confusing punishment and violence here
FWIW the results of punishment are pretty mixed at best though you are right to say it must be done immediately
See also aversion therapy
You are also confusing something that works and something that is just - killing everyone who ever commits a crime stops all reoffending for example but it may not be the right thing to do.
Junkyard. I knew a world of violence. Why don't I have a criminal conviction to my name or a problem with threatening behaviour?
I could have gone the other way and become introverted and a 'victim' too.
However I'm feisty, GSOH and well-balanced. I don't believe chastising a child (or violence to a child) automatically leads to violent behaviour.
I don't believe chastising a child (or violence to a child) automatically leads to violent behaviour.
Most people don't, but it's about likelihood isn't it?
Junkyard. I knew a world of violence. Why don't I have a criminal conviction to my name or a problem with threatening behaviour?I could have gone the other way and become introverted and a 'victim' too.
However I'm feisty, GSOH and well-balanced. I don't believe chastising a child (or violence to a child) automatically leads to violent behaviour.
So is the counter to that argument that using violence will prevent your child from becoming violent as they become older or simply that despite you being brought up in a violent atmosphere you still managed to grow up to become a well balanced pleasant adult?
Hora. Both children were* very lively, active and perfectly normal thank you very much.
Both have clear boundaries, good diet, plenty love and no violence. Son is very sporty and does the usual stuff a 9 y/o does.
*daughter is now a teenager...
I believe you are confusing punishment and violence here
No i 'm not. It doesn't matter how it is framed, punishment or violence immediately after a behaviour results in animals, children, adults stopping that behaviour.
You are also confusing something that works and something that is just - killing everyone who ever commits a crime stops all reoffending for example but it may not be the right thing to do.
No i'm not.
My mother used to give me a good hiding every Thursday behind woolies after I took tantrums.
I think i was a horror. 🙂
Me & the missus talk about this loads. I don't want to smack my boy ,but if he became out of control and endangered himself or another child for instance,I wouldn't rule out a good rattle.
I have the best intentions of not smacking tho'.
No i 'm not. It doesn't matter how it is framed, punishment or violence immediately after a behaviour results in animals, children, adults stopping that behaviour.
Alright, so it stops the behaviour - but it is overall the most productive solution?
CM whilst there is some merits in what you are saying you are grossly over simplifying to the point it is just not true or aversion therapy would have a 100 % success rate
If what you said was true I could beat someone to stop them being gay or Malala Yousufzai would no longer want to be educated.
Its more complicated than you suggest
I smacked my partners niece. Her brother has 3 kids all appallingly behaved. The niece came up to me and started kicking me in the shins. I asked her to stop, she didn't, advised her I'd smack her if she continued and she carried on so turned her round and smacked her on the are not very hard. She looked very confused then went and sat down. Only time she has behaved for at least 30 minutes that I've seen. This was in front of both parents who said nothing. I would dearly love to smack both of them very hard.
CM whilst there is some merits in what you are saying you are grossly over simplifying to the point it is just not true or aversion therapy would have a 100 % success rate
Behaviourist approaches do, have very high predictive validity. Of course it's being simplified! Surely no one expected that 100years of behaviourism was represented in one or two lines. Oversimplified the point that it is not true? No, that's not the case.
If what you said was true I could beat someone to stop them being gay or Malala Yousufzai would no longer want to be educated
These are behaviours, so no, behaviourism would not work here..
Its more complicated than you suggest
Well duh!
CM is playing Devil's advocate...
Behaviourism does not work with behaviours 😀
if you had done it better i would be citing by now
You find that funny? So you mean behaviourism [i]does[/i] work with behaviours?
Well, seeing as it is illegal to smack in Scotland, we have refrained. 😉
Just love angst and anger wrapped up in liberalism from stw
Illegal in Scotland? Really?
Yes its the only thing in Scotland you cannot batter
IGMC
behaviourism does work with behaviours?
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I think the main thing to remember when disciplining kids, be it raising your voice, smacking, or imposing some kind of penalty, is to be in control when you do it. If you are in danger of losing your temper, you have to stop and calm down.
Discipline needs to be proportionate and consistent, you can't guarantee that if you're always losing your rag.
So JY, we can agree that that behaviourism works with behaviours?
is Malala's desire for education a behaviour?
Is homosexuality a behaviour?
Behavior or behaviour is the range of actions and mannerisms made by organisms, systems, or artificial entities in conjunction with their environment, which includes the other systems or organisms around as well as the physical environment. It is the response of the system or organism to various stimuli or inputs, whether internal or external, conscious or subconscious, overt or covert, and voluntary or involuntary.
Behaviorism, also known as behavioral psychology, is a theory of learning based upon the idea that all behaviors are acquired through conditioning. Conditioning occurs through interaction with the environment. Behaviorists believe that our responses to environmental stimuli shapes our behaviors.According to this school of thought, behavior can be studied in a systematic and observable manner with no consideration of internal mental states. It suggests that only observable behaviors should be studied, since internal states such as cognitions, emotions, and moods are too subjective.
I do this to educate and leave you to ponder on whether you can see me doing it and observe it 😛
I wont be replying as i doubt this is real discourse but if it was you have your answer and the power to google and educate yourself
I think you may have confused copy and pasting with education.
I asked some simple questions, you set out saying that i had oversimplified to the extent of being wrong. You've yet to show that.
😆
I was smacked frequently as a child and teenager (including being slapped across the face), I think it did do me harm and I have never smacked either of my boys (aged 16 and 8). I'd hope that my children are motivated to behave because they want to do the right thing, not because they live in fear of a smack.
[quote=dannyh ]I think the main thing to remember when disciplining kids, be it raising your voice, smacking, or imposing some kind of penalty, is to be in control when you do it. If you are in danger of losing your temper, you have to stop and calm down.
Discipline needs to be proportionate and consistent, you can't guarantee that if you're always losing your rag.
+1
Too many folk on this thread seem to be equating smacking with anger.
[quote=CharlieMungus ]Illegal in Scotland? Really?
No
I'd hope that my children are motivated to behave because they want to do the right thing, not because they live in fear of a smack
Exactly Vicky.
I find the idea of somebody "being in control" as he or she administers a smack (or whatever we want to call it) to a child slightly sinister. I could forgive somebody doing it because he or she lost his or her temper and thus self-control, but doing it in a calm and controlled manner? Hmmm...no likey the sound of that.
I find the idea of somebody "being in control" as he or she administers a smack (or whatever we want to call it) to a child slightly sinister. I could forgive somebody doing it because he or she lost his or her temper and thus self-control, but doing it in a calm and controlled manner? Hmmm...no likey the sound of that.
I agree entirely. I remember seeing a mum grab her 6 year old who had run into the road and smack him on the back of his legs. She did it in absolute fear, panic, anger and a momentary loss of self control. As I've previously said, I'd never condone the hitting of a child but I do, in some circumstances, understand why it happens. This being one of those moments. Smacking a child methodically and in a cool, controlled manner is far more disturbing.
Both of my children have been through a 'hitting stage' and during that, both of my children have each received a single smack from me, followed by a discussion of how it made them feel and why they shouldn't hit people, because it makes other people feel like that too.
Beyond that, I see no value to it. All it teaches them is fear of consequence, not what they should or shouldn't do.
Parenting by the 'be-good-or-I-will-hurt-you' book doesn't seem very useful to me. Although like many on here, I took a few smacks as a lad, it taught me little about my original offence other than to be more careful not to get caught next time.
"Fear of consequence" - that adds an interesting side dish to the debate. If you could measure the comparative values, would you rather your child never ran into the road because he/she got a slap on the legs as a youngster when they once looked likely to, or rather they never ran into the road because they once did and got knocked down by a (hopefully) slow moving and attentive driver?
So again. Its LEGAL, recognised by law as allowed within certain parameters.
The laws an ass?
When I was at infant school in the 1970s, the head teacher (appropriately named Mrs Batterson!) would call out in assembly anyone who had misbehaved and smack them hard in front of the whole school. I also remember my class teacher repeatedly shouting and shaking a girl (aged 4) who was crying on her first day. I was terrified of the head and other teachers, and and I went through a phase of refusing to speak to the teachers. Consequently I was described by the head as a "difficult child"!
At secondary school there was a cane, and it was always the same few kids who got it, so it didn't convince me that it was a deterrent.
Vickypea I put through a window, set off a fire alarm and set off a fire extinguisher.
The Head welcomed me in (nicely), showed me his extensive collection of canes. I remember the cabinet on the wall was beautifully made. He asked me to chose.
I chose the thinnest.
I was never naughty again.
The kids that were repeat offenders at our school were abit thick (parent alcoholism?) And in the C band classes.
Hora - I do see your point, but there may have been alternative forms of discipline that would have been just as effective for you that didn't involve the cane.
did we get any further with the discussion about smoking children..?
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Tazer?
I do my best to ignore my son if he's playing up. He can't abide being ignored!
Hora, lots of people were caned, didn't seem to stop misbehsviour though did it?
Hora, I was beaten as a child - corporal punishment with a wooden spatula..
I think it left me as a quite cowardly adolescent and adult, with a sometimes overwhelming amount to prove to myself..
I guess a positive was that this led to some incredibly interesting lifestyle choices and caused me to explore avenues in life that most folk would find very intimidating.. but this was always so very nearly on the edge of going catastrophically wrong, and often did!
Like you, I also found it hard to comprehend that there were other paths and answers in the world outside of my own experience.. 😉
It's also left me with a bit of a short temper though, which has regrettably led to a few isolated incidences of smacking my own kids, when it was clear that more constructive methods would have been preferable..
It has it's place when all other avenues have been exhausted.
or in such instances as when a very small child decides to put their fingers in plug sockets.
Explaining to them that if they do that, the electric will kill them, doesn't work at that age, so a small smack on the hands soon gets the point across.