Sleeping problems and patterns

I've always had trouble sleeping. Now I put an ear bud in and listen to podcasts to drown out my thoughts and try not to stress about being awake as that just guarantees more wakeness.

Alcohol destroys my sleep quality so I almost never drink anymore.

Have you tried some breathing exercises? I've found them really helpful. Loads of guides on the internet. We have a resident GP with a special interest in sleep.... Calling @Kramer 🙂

There is a Michael Mosely " Just one long thing" on Sounds that discusses improving sleep.

He interviews a prof of sleep studies and recomends 5 things you can do to help your quality of sleep.

One of the things as breaking patterns of sleep that you become "trained" into, which sounds a bit like what you are talking about.

The professor said something that ressonated with me..... People rarely have sleeping problems, its almost always problems with anxiety.

Maybe give it a listen?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001trnj

IANAD but it sounds like your adenosine hormone which gets you to sleep is running out too early in the cycle.  Caffeine can have a big impact on adenosine and stays in the system for a long time.

I read Matt Walker's book "Why we sleep" which is a very good explainer about how sleep works. He also has a load of short podcasts on various sleep topics. I think there's one on your situation.

Anyone else suffer with anything similar?

Yep. Mostly getting 4 hours per night for the last couple of years. Struggling.

I had to get quite strict with my pre-bed routine to get back to better sleeping patterns,

Have a set time for bed, try to be consistent across weekends too
No caffeine after 2pm
Limit alcohol - I maybe have a pint a week now.
No phone/tablet for at least 30 minutes before bed.
Have some routine before sleep - I find reading for 10-15 minutes helps

Sufferer here too.

A quick fix that works for me is popping a Nytol or generic equivalent before bed.

I’m always able to fall asleep but it’s the waking early that kills me. Anything after 3am and that’s it, no more sleep.

Sleep aid / Nytol seems to enable me to go back to sleep quickly and easily.

I've also got some melatonin from the States after a two week business trip in Oz/NZ earlier this month.
The combination has reduced my jet lag to basically two days!!

Clearly I’m not addressing the root cause but it helps me out of a rut.

Have you tried sleeping naked? I've heard that it gets wonderful results.

Yup.

Timely as I just did a home sleep clinic thing last night, went to sleep at 10pm as usual, but wide awake at 4am and struggled through until giving in and getting up at 6am.  Granted chest strap, belly strap, spo2 wired monitor and nasal cannula didn't help 🤣

Of those 6 hours i was asleep 4 were spent snoring, mainly at epic levels (SnoreLab app). Be interesting to see what the official results come back like from the sleep clinic. ..

Though I've already done a full sleep clinic thing back around 2007 which diagnosed me with periodic limb movement disorder,  some stopping of breathing, but not OSA back then.

I'm on decaf everything, no food after  tea, blacked out room, no devices or TV in it and bed at more or less 10pm every night. Still have horrendous sleep and feel hungover until dinner time every day.

Look at what and when you eat.  Lower your carb intake and try and finish your last feed at least 4 hours before beddy byes.

I listen to this guy for weight training stuff, Dr Milo Wolf

In this video he talks about research into caffeine, it surprised me how long it has an effect.

Talk to your GP.

Are there other factors at play? Are you stressed? Mainlining coffee?

I had similar last year. I could initially get to sleep but couldn't stay asleep. I was getting like 2 hours a night total and that was in contiguous stretches of like 20-30 minutes. The doctor prescribed a low dosage of Mirtazapine (antidepressant) the be taken an hour before bed; the first night I took it, I slept for 14 hours straight. It's mostly levelled out now.

When I wake in the night I give it 30 mins and if I'm still 'wide awake' I get up, go downstairs, make a cup of tea (yeah I know) and read a book.

Within 30 mins I'm yawning and I go back to bed and sleep.

For me the reading takes my mind off whatever was spinning around in my head.

Are you retired or in gainful employment ?

If retired it doesnt really matter, if employed then getting enough sleep before work will seriously impact your day. Though trying to take an hours sleep at lunchtime will help more than 2 sandwiches and a crossword puzzle.

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being retired and sleeping in stages should be ok. eg sleep for 4 or 5 hours at unusual times, like mid afternoon to late evening or late evening to mid morning(3/4am, then take a short snooze here or there should give you all the rest you need.

Are you sure there isnt some sound happening (heating coming on, neighbour going to work) that might trigger your waking?

If so, try Brown Noise to drown everything out. I really rate it.

a change to your normal sleep pattern leading to interrupted sleep is normally a symptom of something else - stress, worry, anxiety etc. have a think about what might of caused the change to your sleep and try and address the underlying issue

as above, lots of things you can do to increase the chances of getting a better nights sleep - cut out booze & caffeine, keep the room a little cooler, regular routine etc etc, however none of those help when you wake up at 2 in the morning unable to get back to sleep when your brain starts whirring and you start worrying about not getting back to sleep,

the biggest thing that helped me was giving my brain something else to do when i couldn't sleep, for me that was listening to soothing podcasts to go to sleep or stick the ear buds in when i wake up in the middle of the night. there's a really good pod cast called 'nothing much happens' which is designed for this very reason, short soothing uncomplicated stores to listen to - worth a try

I can only advise on getting to sleep, once asleep I usually don't wake until my alarm sounds.

Your issue sounds really frustrating. I'd definitely see your doctor, this sounds like it could something like sleep apnea which can be quite dangerous. My pal recently got diagnosed with this after a stay at a sleep clinic, basically they said he was overweight and drank too much booze, it gave him a good kick in the arse to get a bit healthier. Hope your issue is diagnosed and resolved soon 🤞

I went for years (decades) on about 5 hours sleep per night. I just went to bed when I was actually tired - usually around 1am - and would sleep right through until my alarm went off. It really didn't have any affect on me, it's just that I don't need as much sleep as many/most other folk. I didn't get anxious about it, just accepted it.

You could try simply not going to bed at 10pm and see if you actually sleep though for longer.

When I wake in the night I give it 30 mins and if I’m still ‘wide awake’ I get up, go downstairs, make a cup of tea (yeah I know) and read a book.

Within 30 mins I’m yawning and I go back to bed and sleep.

For me the reading takes my mind off whatever was spinning around in my head.

This double-sleep pattern is apparently quite natural.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieval-habit-of-biphasic-sleep

This is what works for my other half. It is a lot and has to be done consistently for him to get good sleep.

• No alcohol.
• No caffeine at all after lunch and only a moderate amount in the morning (he actually does no caffeine).
• No sugar in the evening close to bed.
• No screens before going to bed, transition to gentle activities in a low-light room and wear those orange glasses that block out the blue light.
• Get some sunlight on your eyes first thing in the morning.
• If you wake up, don't lie in bed stressing - get up and go downstairs for 20/30 mins to break the association of lying in bed not sleeping.
• Don't do anything else in your bedroom so you only associate it with sleep.
• Keep the bedroom on the cold side so you can have a heavyish duvet weighing you down.
• Slow release melatonin at a low dose. You need the slow release stuff to keep you asleep otherwise you'll drop off fine but wake up (as you are doing).

Personally I am generally a good sleeper, but if I wake up and can't get back off I whack an ear bud in and listen to a chill audiobook. Although as my other half tells me this is apparently bad sleep hygiene but it works for me as I'm then not stressing about not sleeping but am relaxing with my eyes closed.

Have a read of this from STW's actual sleep expert

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/sleep-ama/

Things that have helped me and I have seen from several sources (some have been mentioned already in this thread):

Get up at the same time each day

Get daylight into your eyes soon after getting up to help with cortisol levels - 10 minutes sun or 20mins cloudy

The bedroom is only for sleeping and sex. Or only sleeping.

Don't go to bed if your not tired. And if you wake up in the middle of the night get up and do something else for 15 -20 minutes.

I've only tried this recently and for a few times - count backwards from 1000 - the furthest I've made it is 400 and something.

I dont drink alcohol.

Caffeine is limited to the morning mostly, but I have done the whole thing of cutting it out, it made no difference at all.

I am often outside. I am working a physical job which is even harder with very little sleep.

I was walking a lot more now as I have had to stop cycling for a while, probably the rest of this year due to injury.

My phone is tuned off at 8.30pm, I do watch a little tv (no Tv in bedroom).

I watched the Dr Mosley, interesting.

Its getting worse, I'm getting less and less sleep and its really hit me both physically and mentally.  I'm very apprehensive about driving. I have had a few dizzy/unsettling turns probably down to exhaustion.  I am getting really bad headaches first thing in the morning, its like having the worst ever hang over.

My GP is a complete waste of time, they are just not interested at all and only offer sleeping pills, which I dont want! Or they are telling me I am depressed, which I  know I am not and even if I was its probably down to the fact that I am not ****ing sleeping!!

I have to say life is really shit at the moment...and I am struggling immensely!

I've found listening to podcasts / comedy shows help immensely, just make sure it's not to interesting. Stuff like R4's Just a minute, news quiz, unbelievable truth. I also found ocean sounds good as background sound.

A single earbud (ear up side) helps block out additional noise - trucks / kids coming in late / cats fighting with each other outside the bedroom door.

My sleeping has got worse recently, I'm putting that down to stress which I'm aware of

Your GP has offered two solutions but you're not interested in either of them - even temporarily? What makes you think you'll get better advice on a (mountain) biking forum?

Audiobooks or podcasts which I'm quite interested in but which aren't funny or exciting work a treat for me. I've had the same episode of In Our Time on for a few nights now, never seem to make it past about 5 minutes.

Some good tips from @eulach and @kittyr.

Read the book Sleep, by Nick Littlehales - sleep guru / advisor to Man City and United, Team Sky, Team GB etc. Very helpful top tips.

But the main take away for me was that everyone sleeps in 1.5hr cycles of deep and shallower sleep. How and when you go to bed and wake up from these cycles is key. If you search he's on various podcasts too.

The 1.5hr cycles knowledge, plus his sleep hygiene advice, plus some Headspace meditation before bed has transformed how I feel.

Got three hours last night.

I have the problem that when I wake up during the night, whatever time, I'm AWAKE.

I'm thinking about getting one of those eye masks with built in speakers that are so thin you can lie on your side quite comfortably and still listen to music/anything else that might get me back to sleep.

Your GP has offered two solutions but you’re not interested in either of them – even temporarily? What makes you think you’ll get better advice on a (mountain) biking forum?

I have tried sleeping pills, they only gave me 4 tablets due to the fact that they are addictive, I dont want to add to the problem!

I think I would know more about myself being depressed than a doctor, 4 minutes into the conversation offering me more pills then looking at her watch.  Everyone who knows me, know that its not depression, I'm simply exhausted!

Also, I have not asked for advice on this forum, I merely asked if anyone else suffered with anything similar to find out what other people are experiencing.

Some good tips from @eulach and @kittyr.

Read the book Sleep, by Nick Littlehales – sleep guru / advisor to Man City and United, Team Sky, Team GB etc. Very helpful top tips.

But the main take away for me was that everyone sleeps in 1.5hr cycles of deep and shallower sleep. How and when you go to bed and wake up from these cycles is key. If you search he’s on various podcasts too.

The 1.5hr cycles knowledge, plus his sleep hygiene advice, plus some Headspace meditation before bed has transformed how I feel.

I have just started watching a guy who talks about this very thing, interesting stuff.

OK, off the wall "solution" but if you are fishing around on a mountain bike solution you get what you deserve 🙂

You could try a weighted blanket.

I say this because I was in a pretty similar situation. Never had any problem getting off to sleep, but as I approach 60 I find myself waking earlier in the night and taking longer to get back to sleep. I also had a similar reaction to the advice from my GP. She doesn't like sleeping pills (as she says they cause dementia) but was keen to stick me on some ant-depressants. To be fair, as stated above, the conventional wisdom is that sleep problems are often a sign of anxiety and she wasn't prescribing them for the anti-depressant effect as much as for the known "side effect" on sleep quality . I dug out the research studies on this and it does make sense, but I'm very much a "pills as a last resort" kind of person so wanted to try everything else first.

I've used my watch (which records things like "sleep score" stress levels, hrv etc) to try to put some numbers on the effect of the weighted blanket  (as I like numbers) and was quite surprised to see that I could actually measure an effect (see weighted blanket thread for all the gory details).

Despite the significant effects on numbers recorded by the watch it's not a miracle cure or anything. I still wake up in the night, but not as often, not as "stressed" and I get back to sleep a bit quicker. All of which adds up to a noticeable improvement.  Not huge and could easily just be a placebo effect, but sleep issues are all in the mind anyway and the effect is consistent and makes enough difference to be worthwhile to me. YMMV of course.