[Closed] Sleeping badly(?) - pain in both hands

you need new forks

you need carbon handle bars 😉

would suggest circulation issues, but try your docs maybe?

father in law suffers from rheumatoid arthritis - similar symptoms to you. Go to see the quack.

Change your number of pillows. Look up deep neck flexor exercises - do them. Come back in a couple of days and post "that glupton1976 is a miracle worker." 😉

My pillows are very very flat/old now. Maybe time for new ones.

rheumatoid arthritis

Before I do that I need to kick hora jnr out of my bed. He takes up most of the bed and I'm often left on the edge/laying on a wooden board (border) at times. I can understand pain in arms from this but not just hands. Thats why I ask the question.

Stop holding yourself so tight. 😉

Carpal tunnel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome

teamhurtmore

Possible bingo- due to limited space I've been curled up/hands curled when on my side with my arm(s) often under my side too.

Before I do that I need to kick hora jnr out of my bed

Ah ,fair enough, the co sleep thing. I had to get rid of Li'l J from our bed at 8 months 'cos he buggered up my sleep pattern/took the whole bed. 🙂
Shitehawk.

Given that it's both hands and sounds like it's almost a glove like distribution - it'll probably be your neck.

My neck is crazy stiff!

Are any of your fingers numb or is it your whole hand? Could be carpal, you do spend all day on a computer so could be due to repetitive movements.

Go to docs, get nerve conduction test and go from there. If it is carpal, go for the op and don't bother with the injections. They just delay the op. My op took 4mins start to finish and then about 8-10 weeks off the bike.

I'd suggest neck/shoulders being the issue too.

On the bike do you lean on your wrists a lot? or roadie in a bad position?
Your Kids not doing you any favours either, fix that and your pillows and you should be fine.

Massage before Bed?

I'm not offering that by the way... 😆

My neck is crazy stiff!

You probably jut your chin forwards too.

Stop riding in old bangers round Europe. :lol:Try Yoga.

Skippy whole hand(s).

SHEESH my neck crunches 😯

Massage before bed? Reminds me of the Live in the Apollo set that I watched last night 😆

Does sound a bit like carpal tunnel.

Your Gp should bend and bang on your hands, shrug their shoulders a bit, and say "it's most likely carpal tunnel, try some wrist splints..."

DrP

Does this defo mean an operation?

Skiprat, how the frig did you pleasure yourself for THAT long?

Try that. - if it makes it worse it's probably carpal tunnel. If not it's your neck (Did I say that I think it's your neck?)

Glupton +1

My sister had identical symptoms which were diagnosed as carpal tunnel syndrome. 2 painful ops later & absolutely no change she was referred to a third consultant who scanned her neck/upper back rather than the hands & spotted a problem with her alignment.

Some simple therapy and a few changes to sleeping/sitting/working habits & she's seen a substantial improvement.

If I apply pressure when doing the above- yes painful in the same ways. When I do it normally, no. I'm going to go with neck. Its really stiff and crunches alarmingly. Will sort a pillow, do the exercises and try that avenue first. It may be denial but I'd prefer this first! Cheers

For the exercises try to build up to holding 10 reps for 10 seconds.

Have you thought about stopping lying on your hands for half an hour at a time before you rough up the prime suspect? It'd probably be ok if you just did it once.....

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Sleep with 1 flat pillow, lift some weights to strengthen and realign your neck and shoulders to free up the nerves and blood flow. I had this for years until I lifted weights and ate a primal diet. Prior to that I had to do windmill impressions every morning. Good excuse to give my hubby a quick slap in the morning though 😉

Funnily enough I bought two massive pillows yesterday and theres no numbness in my hands but just pain in my two index fingers mid-night 😐

Hands tight but better this morning- feels like the inside of my index fingers are very tight though.

I also started doing the neck exercises yesterday pm- cheers 🙂

BTW- I had a rotor cuff a couple of years ago (still have trouble with it- cant hold a shopping basket in my right hand) and I had a face plant off the bike about a month ago.

Thanks guys- work in progress and going the right way

The Medi profession is absolutely clueless re "Carpal Tunnel" they continue to do unnecessary surgeries that don't make a difference.

That's because the cause of the problem is elsewhere.

I usually fix this in minutes with my clients.

Here is a clue to any docs or surgeons reading this... Follow the nerve complex up HIGHER. Check their posture and rattle your tiny brains to see if you can figure out where the nerves might be impinged higher up. Doh!

Answer is usually brachial plexus bundle under Pec Minor [it being one of the biggest compensators in the body] and Scalenes [nerves pass between Anterior and Medial Scalenes]

Neck restriction is almost certainly a given. Intertransversarii can lock the facets restricting movement and setting up a chain of compensation. Easy to release. But again you need to figure out why they are doing it [often a core imbalance - by core I mean muscles that attach to the spine, not the muscles your gym instructor or personal trainer thinks is the core!]

Very simple to improve things for clients.

Not so simple figuring out WHY you have ended up like this....that's what I specialise in. Drop me a line if you want to book in an appointment. Worth travelling for.

P

P where are you based?

When its happened previously (woke up with numb prob due to sleeping awkwardly on it) I've found massaging hard around the 'funny' bone (oi binners) seems to send relief to the numbness straight away too.

Didn't work this time/different.

I'm down south.

Repeat for dramatic effect - worth travelling for.

A moderately clued up physio may give you neck stretches. Problem with this approach is that the scalenes don't like being stretched so usually rebound to protect themselves.

I wouldn't recommend a physio [based purely on the horror stories I hear from my clients and I don't think their level of training is high enough]

Some advanced massage therapists may have a clue, but again will stretch things without properly assessing things.

Who ever you say, ask them if they do assessments to figure out why things are as they are [in terms of structural compensation patterns]

Otherwise you are wasting your money.

Just my opinion 😉

"Does sound a bit like carpal tunnel.

Your Gp should bend and bang on your hands, shrug their shoulders a bit, and say "it's most likely carpal tunnel, try some wrist splints..."

DrP

As I said... the medical profession is clueless! All they do is chase symptoms.

I know of a concert cellist who was recommended bilateral surgery by two surgeons. This is big business in the States as the op only takes a few minutes. Success rate is rubbish. I wonder why that would be...

Anyway, thankfully the cellist sought a second opinion from a noted bodyworker who sussed that the probem was cervical nerve impingement [ie higher up] not CT.

Said cellist subsequently told the surgeons what she thought of them 🙄

A moderately clued up physio may give you neck stretches.

A fully clued up one would give you strengthening exercises like the ones I have given you above and remove the cause by getting you to change your sleeping position... Your issues are coming from the nerve roots being compressed as they are leaving your spine.

There is nothing complex whatsoever in your case and you do not need to travel anywhere to be treated by a complimentary/alternative therapist.

As for physiotherapists not being highly trained enough - I have a 4 year honours degree during which I completed well over 1000 hours supervised practice and many other training courses. What does a bodyworker have?

wtf is a bodyworker?

there's a book called 'treat your own neck' by Mackenzie that had loads of good stretches in it. he also does a back book - again great home therapy, which if used in consulatation/conjunction with a properly trained physio should have you sorted. George +1 😆

@Glupton

What specific muscles would you strengthen?
Why do they need strengthening.
If certain muscles present as inhibited, how did you test for that?
What other muscles are contributing to the the inhibition?
Is it an issue in the cerebellum?
If so how would you reprogram the brain to fix that?

As for the vid showing cervical retraction - ideally the client needs to assist to end range with maxilla pressure not mandible as that might contribute joint compression,to as that's where the goodness happens. Just retracting isn't enough.
What tests do you do for longs coli et al?
How might they be contributing to the possible forward head posture.

Would you release locked facets?

No offence dude but this is way beyond physio degree level.

You think I am a complimentary therapist! Ha!

Podium - what is your medical qualification ?

A moderately clued up physio might give you neck stretches was alluding to the fact that they would be wrong to do so. As hinted in my meanderings. As it's a typical one size fits all "solution"

The biggest mistake therapists make is in assuming a short tight muscle is a facilitated one. Epic failure.

Please don't tell me you have clients stretch their short tight psoas without doing a neural activation test first as Psoas is top candidate for the most inhibited muscle in the body. what happens when you stretch an inhibited muscle...

over and out.

Podium - what is your medical qualification ?

errr.....

over and out.

hmmmm 😆

I have no axe to grind, but you do seem to give a lot of specific medical advice, which is rare for a medical professional on the internet.

outstanding differentials the pair of you. if a fourth year medical student couldn't do better than that, even with the history given, i'd slap them in the head.

and just in case anyone's missing it, when i say outstanding i really, really don't mean it

Carpal Tunnel or Neck. Or other stuff too...

Nowhere near enough info here for anyone to make a dogmatically certain diagnosis, and then trash others opinions and treatments. It must be good to be as certain as some STW therapists...

[i]The biggest mistake therapists make is[/i]

willy waving on a bike forum?

Podium - what on earth are you talking about? What qualifications does a body worker have?

Stoatsbrother - fair point well made. Probably is as good as diagnoses get though.

I know it's wiki but this [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodywork_(alternative_medicine) ]description on "Bodywork"[/url] is probably all you need to know.

'energy medicine'

is this invisible snake oil?

The Medi profession is absolutely clueless re "Carpal Tunnel" they continue to do unnecessary surgeries that don't make a difference.

Well that's a load of bollocks.
I had my right CT done 15 years ago and it's fixed. Perfect ever since.
I'm just waiting for a date to have my left one done. I'll report back in another 15 years about that one....

Podium - what on earth are you talking about?

he went away after I asked him what his medical qualifications were 😛

Some of what podium says makes sense and what I think he is talking about (in a rather obnoxious and arrogant way unfortunately) is related to the works of Janda and postural syndromes (upper crossed in particular) and the law of reciprocal inhibition in muscles. In other words you can't simply stretch a muscle which is weak and inhibited by other neuromuscular imbalances and faulty movement patterns (such as postural issues). The issue will just return again. You need to address the other factors also.

How he can claim to fix this 'in minutes' and diagnose someone on a forum is highly questionable. To dismiss physios as not being highly qualified enough and unable to treat stuff like this is also laughable (and no I'm not a physio).

mulv1976 - I'm not a physio either and my medical knowledge is limited to my own body failings 😆 I do however rate the physio's I have seen over the years. Sure some are better at getting to the root of an issue and helping than others, but all have been professional

Wow a moshpit in my topic 8)

Sadly I cant rough-house as my hands are ****ed 😆

Did 2 years of a physio degree. That didn't remotely give me the answers I was looking for.
Changed to Sports Therapy. A bit better but I was still looking for a eureka moment [in terms of problem solving knowledge]
Was going to train as a surgeon but jumped into a different frying pan - that of Structural Osteopathy. Getting there..
You'll love this bit - taught soft tissue techniques on a Physio Degree! That was very stifling as I wasn't allowed to teach the students to think outside the box, which you need to do to solve complex musculoskeletal problems.
Went to America to train in various Bodywork modalities. Bodywork is something of a generic term and a universally acknowledged umbrella term over there. Most are trained in different stuff, wether from a Chiropractic background, Physical Trainer [similar to our Physios] Rolfers etc.
Last 10 years spent doing more obscure post grad quails.

All of that goes into the melting pot, I use very little of the original trainings in the trenches these days which I feel only teach you to a level of basic competence.

I Work on Bodies using various skills and knowledge.

Defacto i am a BodyWorker.

But you can call me a complimentary therapist 😉

You sound more like an insulting then a complimentary therapist. (sorry couldn't resist)

There are some great physios out there btw.
It's all STW banter hels.
I'm actually a dustman.

Went to America to train in various Bodywork modalities

Last 10 years spent doing more obscure post grad quails

Could you be more specific as to the training and the qualifications?

My missus, who is actually a physio [I kid you not - she was on the same phyzzybum degrees course] keeps hitting me...says stop annoying the SingleCrackers.

Obscure stuff not many have heard of. Much better than all the other stuff put together. Top secret sauce, if you will.

Sounds like a good dose of reflexology would sort you out.

Pinch the skin behind your big toe, the left one. Does your hand feel any better?

If that doesn't work, I can put you in touch with a vibrational therapist.

says stop annoying the SingleCrackers

Um, I don't think you're annoying anyone, I waiting for the information regarding your training and qualifications, so I can have a chuckle before bedtime.

There's good and bad practitioners in all types of health care (I'm a chiropractor btw) but I don't agree with the general medical approach to musculoskeletal conditions, which seems to be to react to pain by masking it with pain killers or by hacking bits off. Surely it is better to identify and deal with what may be causing it in the first place e.g. functional issues. Structural issues or pathology are a different matter.

It makes me laugh when medical doctors are held in such high regard just because they have a medical qualification. In my experience, most GPs wouldn't have a clue how to treat a musculoskeletal problem (and I've had one as a patient who admitted as much). The majority are just a gate-keeper for referral or basically to triage any red flag cases. Don't get me wrong, there are some great GPs out there and I respect medical doctors but I think the westernised medical system is all geared towards targets and £££ and not about the well-being of the patient at all.

Case in point - a recent patient with a 20 year history of disc prolapse and degeneration was fobbed off with pain killers and NSAIDS for all that time and is now left with massive structural changes, chronic pain and neurogenic claudication which (surprise, surprise) won't react to medication. Now, if this condition had been dealt with properly 20 years ago (ergonomic, lifestyle, postural, functional, stability advice, exercises etc), they would have had a decent chance of a fit and active, pain free life. To me that borders on negligence, but it is all too common nowadays. I see it time and time again.

People want a quick fix to be pain free i.e. pop a pill ('evidence shows it's just as effective' blah, blah). That's fine in some cases, but in others it won't prevent degenerative processes if the underlying functional causes aren't identified and addressed! Sorry, bit of a rant, but there you go...

'Medical' qualifications: Masters degree in Chiropractic (4 years full time undergraduate training, including 12 months in a clinic environment) for those who want a 'chuckle' 🙄

so not medical then...

as for your example - frankly fatuous. as i was working in hospitals 20 years ago and trying, with some lack of success, to get complementary therapies introduced the notion that any of these things would've been taken on board would've have been rare indeed.

as for gps, well there's good and bad but i note none of you have managed anything like a differential beyond 'something neckish' so really i don't think anyone should be throwing stones in that respect.

the 'i know best' model, amply demonstrated in the above, is one in which not only can clinical error thrive but also removes the person concerned from the centre of the picture in favour of the practitioner.

patient first, ego second seems to me to be a pretty decent way to work as well as assessing the type of person looking after you.

A simple search for "singletrack forum chiropractic" will turn up ample evidence of the previous threads on this subject.

Case in point

How much do you charge?

so not medical then...

What does that even mean? What do you see as a 'medical' person? NHS? No offence but that's opening a whole can of worms.

as for your example - frankly fatuous

Really? Try telling that to my patient and the many others I see in the same boat. My approach is biopsychosocial ie holistic, where the patient is at the centre. I will try to address all aspects of their life which may be affecting their health.

as for gps, well there's good and bad but i note none of you have managed anything like a differential beyond 'something neckish' so really i don't think anyone should be throwing stones in that respect.

Without examining the patient (which the majority of GPs don't do) it would be impossible to say anything else...

patient first, ego second seems to me to be a pretty decent way to work as well as assessing the type of person looking after you.

There's too many egos in the healthcare profession - that's why there's so many divisions. The patient should always come first but sometimes that seems to get lost in the arguments.

How much do you charge?

How much do you charge?

What's that got to do with anything?

I think the westernised medical system is all geared towards targets and £££

How much do you charge?

Western life is geared towards £££££'s

Medical practitioners aren't exempt from needing money. They have skills that are difficult to acquire so can charge accordingly.

There's very few people who work for less than the market will bear.

If you must know: £45 for an initial consultation and treatment and £30 for follow up treatments.

Patients typically respond well after 4-6 treatments.

Patients typically respond well after 4-6 treatments

Amazing. And if they don't?

Western life is geared towards £££££'s
Medical practitioners aren't exempt from needing money. They have skills that are difficult to acquire so can charge accordingly.

Very true. The medical staff earn their money. I was talking more specifically about the megabucks being made by the large pharmaceuticals and US health insurance companies. But that's capitalism for you.

Are you a straight chiropractor or a mixer?

Amazing. And if they don't?

Do I detect a touch of cynicism?

I will re-assess and discuss further options with the patient. If I feel the condition would be best referred to another specialist for imaging/further testing, I will do so. If I feel the condition needs further treatment to respond (which can often be the case which chronic issues), I will propose a further, perhaps modified treatment plan with the patients informed consent. Fortunately this doesn't happen too often. As I said most respond well after 4-6 treatments 😉

In my experience, most GPs wouldn't have a clue how to treat a musculoskeletal problem (and I've had one as a patient who admitted as much).

In my experience GPs get about 7 minutes to do a complete consultation and write any notes. I take 45 minutes to an hour. I couldn't get to the bottom of a complex musculoskeletal case in 7 minutes and my training in musculoskeletal issues is probably better than a GP would be expected to have.

That was very stifling as I wasn't allowed to teach the students to think outside the box, which you need to do to solve complex musculoskeletal problems.

Can you explain why you think it's necessary to think outside the box when solving complex msk problems? I am of the opinion that there are no complex msk problems, merely complex solutions looking for a problem. I go for a logical approach to diagnosis and treatment and keep things firmly in the box - works great for me and my patients.

In my experience GPs get about 7 minutes to do a complete consultation and write any notes. I take 45 minutes to an hour. I couldn't get to the bottom of a complex musculoskeletal case in 7 minutes and my training in musculoskeletal issues is probably better than a GP would be expected to have.

I appreciate the time constraints of the GPs, but surely this is more a failure of the 'system' rather than of their assessment skills. I've no doubt that most would be able to diagnose these problems if they actually assessed, I still doubt they'd be able to treat them 'hands on' effectively - they simply don't have the training.

I still doubt they'd be able to treat them 'hands on' effectively - they simply don't have the training.

i think that if they had time they might be able to diagnose the most common conditions.

Say you were the patient - would you rather pay a GP, or a specialist in msk injury rehab, keeping in mind the relative cost of each? Physio is cheaper than a GP.

Anyway Hora - how are your neck and hands today?

Say you were the patient - would you rather pay a GP, or a specialist in msk injury rehab, keeping in mind the relative cost of each? Physio is cheaper than a GP.

A good point raised.
But...would the MSK rehab specialist be able to arrange prompt in house nursing care because your wife, whom you care for and lift, hence the back injury, is now left without a carer? And would the MSK specialist be able to discuss the side effects of your 'water tablet' with you at the same time, because you've only got the time and strength to see one specialist, and although not related in the slightest to the back issue, is also on your mind. Plus, you've ran out of blood pressure pills too and thought that stopping them was what was causing your back issues, alongside the water tablets that may have been 'making your kidneys hurt'....

I'm not saying one profession can or can't manage simple health problems in isolation better than another, but whoever the patient sees needs to see past "hello, I'm dan with a sore back" and see the bigger picture (which I'm sure we all try to do)...

DrP

DrP - we're in agreement here. Physios are cheaper because they don't have the power or training to deal with those things. I do not envy GPs. GPs work far too hard and have too much stress for he money they are paid - I'm happy with the amount of responsibility that I have in my job and I don't want any more than that.

Still painful- especially in middle and index.

I've traced the median nerve up into the side of my bicep/armpit- manipulating that REALLY helps immediately.

Hmm - Interesting. I still think it's neck related, but your best route to go down would probably be to see your GP and see if they can sort it out or refer your to physio.

Release bicep fascial bag.
Assess pec minor for facilitation [a given] and compensatory patterns [try opposite psoas test]
Pec Minor likely impinging brachial plexus nerve bundle.
TOS between anterior and medial scalenes also very common.

If Pec Minor is causing impingement, you prob have anterior humeral glide, and resultant restrictions. Assess those. may have glenohumeral adhesions. Release if so.

May have inhibited Rohomboids. But not always.

Subscapularis often needs release and subclavius.

Assess cervical facets [often locked closed]
Release as required.

Just a few quick off the cuff things I usually check and treat.

Forearm glide along pec minor to bicep with client humeral rotation often works well.

If pec minor is the main issue [might be, might not be] you need to figure out how many muscles it is compensating for and address those issues if you want a long term solution.

Don't forget to ask your therapist to test the cervical intertransversarii if you have locked facets [and resultant neck restrictions]

Good luck

What Podium said

[i]cervical intertransversarii[/i]

Is that not lady parts related?