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So, despite my disciplined MFP calorie counting according to BMF and lost Cal's due to bike training, I cant lose the flab on my stomach . FWIW I end a week on 0 to -1500 cals depending on my training duration .
I don't really want to get a six pack but in the next few months I want to achieve a trim belly and remove the couple of pounds of lard lying underneath.
How?
I was once told, you can't select where it goes from first, but once it's gone from one spot, it has no choice but to move onto the next!
Grab a beer and a pretzel, a schnitzel and maybe another beer and let the machine do the work for you..
Just ignore it and live life
Corset?
I was once told, you can’t select where it goes from first, but once it’s gone from one spot, it has no choice but to move onto the next!
Sure, I'm aware it can't be targeted as such. But I can't work out that with negative cals, a predominantly healthy diet and a 6-12hr training week how I'm "flabby". In fact, my weight has gone up 6lbs in the last month, its affect my w/kg of course...
Its nearly 30 years since I studied biology at school, but do I remember correctly that there are two types of fat, and one is really hard to get rid of?
(Logs back in yet again)
One is Fat, the other is Fatty Fat.
You won’t shift it Krytz, as you get olde deposits gather and unless you are anorexic or become anorexic those fat deposits will remain (and possibly get bigger)
You are just growing up.
You are just growing up.
You mean growing old surely, I've never been accused of growing up before 😉
Oddly, my coach kind of agrees - "you only need to only worry about your effort and performance..." "...but but but w/kg..." I say
Id personally recommend some heavy lifting if that is your goal. Squats and deadlifts mainly
Yeah, soz. I meant to type growing old not up.
Apolz
I end a week on 0 to -1500 cals
my weight has gone up 6lbs in the last month
🤔
You won’t shift it Krytz, as you get olde deposits gather and unless you are anorexic or become anorexic those fat deposits will remain (and possibly get bigger)
You are just growing up.
Not exactly true as I was 49 a couple of weeks ago and have had a six pack (although it is fading slightly the last couple of years) for as long as I can remember. I eat three large meals a day, but not crap, I also drink beer 🙂 I've no idea how many calories a day and I've no idea how many hours exercise as I don't monitor any of it except putting a few rides on Strava.
But I can’t work out that with negative cals,
You're probably not negative or as negative as you think.
If you reduce your calorie intake from a neutral point, your body can reduce calorie expenditure it two ways:
1. Reduce basal metabolic rate - less twitching in your sleep etc
2. Increase efficiency during exercise, so the same workout burns less calories.*
We're all different as to how much these affect us, but for some it can be a real battle to loose flab as the body can be very good at conserving energy.
* I read a paper the other month measuring a set of power lifters in calories neutral and then calorie deficit doing the same workout. In the deficit state, the body burnt less calories lifting the same weights...
Genetics i.e get new parents.
I end a week on 0 to -1500 cals
my weight has gone up 6lbs in the last month
You need to stay out of the light, you're photosynthesising.
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I end a week on 0 to -1500 cals
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my weight has gone up 6lbs in the last month
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MINUS 1500
Yep; zero to minus 1500 yet an increase of 6lbs in weight in a month, the two are pretty much mutually exclusive. I'm sure there are outlier reasons how this could happen, from basic stuff like being severely dehydrated at T=0 weighing, to complex physiological adaptation but all things being equal there is no way you could be 0-6000 calories in deficit yet gain half a stone.
Either your scales are ****ed, or you've been raiding the fridge in your sleep 😉
[edit] or having read your OP more closely - your estimate of calories out due to exercise is off, and therefore you haven't really been in deficit at all. If you want to lose weight you do it through what you eat, and supplement that by exercise. Not use exercise as a reason to eat more. I know the pro's can do both (eg: the documented accounts of Froome losing weight during week 1 of the Giro so he'd hit target weight as the reached the mountains) but they have far closer control of both effort and portion, and are riding 5-6 hours every day.
Not that unusual, one of the women in my gym was training for a power lifting comp, she was cutting to get down to her weight class but gained weight even in what should have been a big deficit. In the end her coach told her to abandon the cut and compete in a heavier class.
Her body was just very efficient at resisting the deficit and cut back energy expenditure to compensate.
The problem is you may eat 2500/day and not gain weight and assume that's your daily burn rate, so you cut to 2000/day thinking you're now in deficit, only the body goes 'shit food is scarce, better conserve energy' and drops your energy consumption by 750/day...
there is no way you could be 0-6000 calories in deficit yet gain half a stone.
I think it depends. If you have lost fat but gained muscle mass this could be the case, muscle being denser than fat.
Also did you turn one out before weighing? That could account for a few lbs 😉
Stop weighing yourself is the best advice I’ve been given. Work out, push and pull weights, compound exercises, tyre flipping, farmers walks, prowler push and pull etc. Is your goal to be fit and strong or fit and strong, but also aesthetically pleasing?
When you say training what exactly do you mean? 6 to 12 hours per week is a lot. Are you training for an event? Don’t want to sound patronising, but rest is as (if not more) important than your actual workouts.
The nearest I ever came to a 6 pack was when I was doing 3 hrs of circuits a week, playing tennis on a Sunday, mtbing on a Saturday (+occasional night rides in the week), & commuting 20 miles per day (3 days a week).
Couldn't be arsed with all that now.
When you say training what exactly do you mean? 6 to 12 hours per week is a lot. Are you training for an event?
Im a coached mtb racer. My training is anything from 15s sprints, 1,3,5, 20 min intervals and long endurance rides in the fat burning zone.
To answer the other questions, i need to eat to support the training and racing - carbs in to support the workouts and race efforts, protiens and carbs post exercise. I do have nutritional advice via my coach. Worse case scenario is a calorie neutral day based on a shorter workout, best case 2000 cals in deficit after a 6hr ride.
I have been doing lot of muscular endurance work so yes, there may be some muscular weight gain. Im working on 2100 cals average per day based on my sedantry working practise plus sporting lifestyle, using 3 of the recognise BMR calculators to get to that number, power and HR to calculate my output
All of that should be relatively accurate Hence the question as to why its not happening
How often do you weigh yourself? I'm making a concerted effort to lose weight at the moment and have been weighing myself daily. I find it useful as rather than comparing one weigh-in to the next, I've got a clearer picture of the fluctuations that go on and the general trend. For example, if I just pick two days within the last month that are 17 days apart, I could see a loss of anywhere between 5 and 14 lbs. However, If I look at the general trend over the 7 weeks that I've been recording my weight daily then I can see that on average I've lost 2.8 lbs per week.
Also, how are you measuring calorie expenditure? If power-based then it's likely to be pretty accurate, heart-rate-based a bit less so (but better than the stab in the dark of duration/intensity calculations). Edit: you answered this while I was typing!
FWIW, I've been using MFP with a calorie target for losing 2lbs per week (gives me an allowance of 1500 kcal per day + whatever I expend through exercise). Religiously sticking to under this target and using power-based expenditure calculations has worked for me with what sounds like a similar amount of training to you (6-12 hours per week, generally around 9 hours, training stress score of ~400-600 per week). This is a bigger calorie deficit than you though. My FTP has dropped very slightly, although increased in terms of W/kg.
It's a pity hayfever season is over or you could get into the Triamcinolone.
Genetics - simples
If power-based then it’s likely to be pretty accurate
Yes and no...
You burn more calories resting than exercising, which you're not measuring.
The efficiency of your body exercising changes between calorie surpless, calorie neutral and calorie deficit, which you won't be able to account for without a proper method of measuring expenditure such as oxygen use or the gold standard, DLW, but at £1000 a bottle it's not a cheap option..
This podcast covered the fat types.
Can't remember the full discussion but your coach is probably right.
Eggs for breakfast. Thread closed.
Some people get that six-pack definition while others don't. But for the fat shifting - E for B and be your best.
"I was once told, you can’t select where it goes from first, but once it’s gone from one spot, it has no choice but to move onto the next!"
Actually, there is evidence to show that intense strength training focused on a particular area followed immediately by cardio can spot reduce fat - I read it somewhere on here: https://www.strongerbyscience.com
You burn more calories resting than exercising, which you’re not measuring.
Well I kind of am, I wear a Garmin device and its calorific expenditure is surprisingly close to my calculated BMR. But there are other outputs - I walk a lot for work between Train journeys and in Cities, none of that goes in so that would be extra "loss" right?
The efficiency of your body exercising changes between calorie surpless, calorie neutral and calorie deficit.
You may have hit on something here - did I read that constant calorie deficit cause your body to store fat? In which case do I need to go on the iBinners diet once in a while to tell it theres no need?
If you have lost fat but gained muscle mass this could be the case, muscle being denser than fat.
When I was a keen climber I was leaner and heavier that before and since, mainly down to weight training I think. So yes, muscle is heavier. I never managed a 6 pack even then - unless it was beers.
I would have thought if you want to encourage your abdominal muscles to show off you need to train them - i.e. weights.
it's overall bodyfat that counts, or lack of it more to the point. I haven't trained my abs with weights for over 20yrs, I do however do flow yoga which engages the core for much of the movements. I do a few core exercises now and again if I haven't been able to get to yoga but it's certainly not on regular basis.
Well I kind of am, I wear a Garmin device and its calorific expenditure is surprisingly close to my calculated BMR.
Doesn't mean they're both wrong. If your BMR has dropped below average then the average according to a calculation and according to the garmin which is based on a model that works for the same average person.
But there are other outputs – I walk a lot for work between Train journeys and in Cities, none of that goes in so that would be extra “loss” right?
Well that would be extra, so the first guess at BMR is even more wrong.
Assuming your calories on the bike is accurate, which I guess it should be. And you know how many calories you've eaten then assuming that
fat accumulated = (calories in - calories out) /7700 [this completely ignores other energy stores apart from fat]
Then you should be able to work back to a more accurate BMR.
The muscle thing is a slight red herring, it takes something like 6x more energy to build a lb of muscle than it does fat , then when going through katabolism it only releases 1/6th of the energy of fat as muscle is mostly water not energy. Which is why it's very difficult to gain power and lose weight at the same time. So getting down to a low body fat % takes a serious amount of protein otherwise the body will skip repairing the muscles as that's what's taking a lot of the energy.
IANANutritionist.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279077/ - an interesting read.
If you want to reduce your body fat then you need to increase your deficit. If you think you're doing enough, it's probably time to just accept your genetic destiny.
You may have hit on something here – did I read that constant calorie deficit cause your body to store fat?
The problem is that your body consists of loads of feedback loops you can't see, so you start reducing calories and your body will start adjusting how much you burn sleeping, sitting, standing, exercising, etc. The effect varies person to person, so some people have very aggressive feedback to calorie deficit and others not much.
I friend of the wife spends her whole time measuring all this using DLW for the MRC.
Once you are in a deficit you will lose weight, it's just that working out if you're in a deficit can be a bit tricky as cutting calories might not work initially as you're body just cuts back on energy expenditure.
Hence the question as to why its not happening
Maybe it's not as simple as calories in vs calories out? Who ever knew that?! 😉
Do you have refeed days? Read about leptin.
If you don't eat enough, your base metabolic rate and your maximum rate of work on the bike slow down to compensate.
Fat cells respond to a complicated set of hormones and systems. They don't just automatically take up or release whatever the energy debt or surplus is.
My BMR seems to go up or down quite a bit, based on how warm or cold I am in the evenings.
- Leptin level is increased by emotional stress.<sup id="cite_ref-pmid17062814_65-0" class="reference">[64]</sup>
- Leptin level is chronically reduced by physical exercise training.<sup id="cite_ref-pmid20432196_66-0" class="reference">[65]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-pmid8944684_67-0" class="reference">[66]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-pmid9142875_68-0" class="reference">[67]</sup>
- Leptin level is decreased by increases in testosterone levels and increased by increases in estrogen levels.<sup id="cite_ref-pmid10845097_69-0" class="reference">[68]</sup>
- Leptin level is increased by insulin.<sup id="cite_ref-pmid8621027_70-0" class="reference">[69]</sup>
Doesn't bode well for a stressed salesman and father of two pursuing amateur sporting success, does it!
And pursuing physical 'perfection' too! Why do you do it to yourself?!
I think you could be overthinking it all. I had a six pack when I did lots of weightlifting and ate healthily. Not had one since. Weights and core exercises and stop with the scales.
Fat is same the glycerol molecule with 3 fatty acid bonds no matter where its deposited. Old fat vs new fat is bullshit.
Weights and core exercises will only work to define your stomach if they put you into a calorie deficit (notwithstanding the other amazing overall benefits of this type of training).
Diet first, then exercise.
The hierarchy of fat loss, on a basic level: nutrition > strength training > sleep/rest > cardio.
For you, Kryton, the sleep & rest are particularly crucial, given what a delicate little flower you are.
Stress if really bloody bad for you. I'd focus on removing stress from my life before I worried about a couple of cm on my waist line.
given what a delicate little flower you are.
Oh do **** off. Your post might have been helpful before you went there.
Abs are made in the kitchen.
No, wait, that's cake.
Is the point of this weight loss to get faster? If so, I think (short term at least), you'd be best off focusing on other factors. While it's slightly different for me (age and the associated metabolic rate), my training (not to mention immune system and happiness) would be pretty compromised by regularly hitting a >1000kcal deficit.
I don't have a link to the actual study, nor have I read more than just the abstract, so don't absolutely rely on this, but: in three groups of untrained individuals, one training to increase threshold power, one trying to reduce body weight, and one trying to achieve both simultaneously; the only group to not increase threshold w/kg was the last (combined) one.
Of all the posts from racing you've put on here, I can never recall one in which you were generally strong, but getting dropped on the hills. It's all been that you were feeling weak, feeling sick, or some other ailment which suggests a problem more fundamental than carrying a little excess fat.
Maybe try eating with no deficit for a couple of weeks and see how it affects your training?
Dude, you’re getting old, embrace the flabdominals.
After several years of parenthood,being largely desk bound at work plus two hernias with complications ,I had become flabbier than I was happy with. The complications led me to an Orthopedic specialist & an mri revealed wear on L5 vertebrae.She advised core strength exercise so now I do "Cumbrian" Yoga 😉 while my bath runs - sit-ups , planks , leg raises & lots of stretching . Over time I am just about fitting in to my "slim" clothes - so must be working.
If only I didn't like pints,cake&pies, I'd be a whippet . 🙂
Is the point of this weight loss to get faster?
No not at all, it’s because I have an estimate 2lbs of prominent bulging gut which I feel uncomfortable about. If the resulting removal helped w/kg also that’d be great.
Of all the posts from racing you’ve put on here, I can never recall one in which you were generally strong, but getting dropped on the hills. It’s all been that you were feeling weak, feeling sick, or some other ailment which suggests a problem more fundamental than carrying a little excess fat
Its a fair point Padkinson but that’s because I come on here to moan and ask advice in the main, I don’t promote my success. I’ve actually had a good XCO season matching last years regional results whilst ultimately performing better (although having a bad final Marathon as you know, and a bad race on Sunday due to illness), and there being a stronger top 5 present (notably Roger Foulkes and Matt Webber) at the top. I was also flying in the Wantage Marathon, and finished with a bundle of excess energy. All my numbers are up, my Z2 has moved up by 50w at each end and my muscular endurance / climbing ability has improved at a rate of which even I’m surprised at, not previously being strong there. My HR is lower at all efforts and my recovery faster - I’m fitter. So, all round this year I am stronger and faster as a Racer, just not in your league. 🙂 Now that me and much coach have been through year 1 of discovery I’m confident the efforts of the upcoming winter training will be even more focused and beneficial.
Just add to that I’ve raced heavier this year at 76kg, last year I was 75, the year before 74.5.
What’s for breakfast Krytz??
Go on..
Lol. It’s off season now bikebouy, so that’s coming Saturday morning after Friday is day 1 of a weekend away on a stag do. 65g of healthy muesli and 2 slices of wholemeal organic toast fwiw 😉
Just reading back after Padkinsons post, actually perhaps just “being middle aged”and accepting that is the way to go. I’m clearly eating healthy, exercising and getting stronger at my chosen sport. If I don’t look good at the pool, it doesn’t matter.
After the stag do you should take a leaf out of Marky Mark's book!
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-45497348
Oh do **** off. Your post might have been helpful before you went there.
Chill, dude - it’s a joke! You’re the first to admit you’re susceptible to the pressure you put yourself under, right?
#itsonlyyouwhothinkstheydontlookgoodatthepoolnooneelseGAS
Stress. Like wallop says.
Training stress, work stress, home stress, all the same when it comes to increasing Cortisol levels.
Higher Cortisol levels = higher insulin levels.
Lift weights and back off the bike training for a while now its off season
Just reading back after Padkinsons post, actually perhaps just “being middle aged”and accepting that is the way to go. I’m clearly eating healthy, exercising and getting stronger at my chosen sport. If I don’t look good at the pool, it doesn’t matter.
Noo! I’m 41 and the belly flab has been sneaking up on me since the kids came along. I’m gonna fight it for as long as possible. Lost a couple of inches on the waist and gained elsewhere. Middle aged spread can **** right off 😡
Middle aged spread can **** right off
It won't though.
Fwiw I'm no athlete but to back up what's been said above, using similar measures etc...
I don't account for exercise on MFP, for weight maintenance i aim for 1800-2000 kcal a day as "measured" by MFP, to lose weight i aim for 1500 with no adjustment. (All avg across the week, some days I'm hungry, some I'm not)
According to tomtom's calculations i use about half the calories MFP thinks for any given bike ride, they're about the same for a run (which i don't do do often so I'm inefficient)
Based on HR/TomTom's BMR calcs i burn about 1000 kcal a day on my commute 4 or 5 days a week, plus anything else on top.
That same commute was 1500 or so when i started recording it.
At 6'3" and better part of 14st i was losing about 2lb a week on 1500 total k cal per day. Now near 13st and the same 1500 k cal sees me lose about quarter of a lb a week.
Last few weeks I've not cycled to work much, have eaten like a pig and drunk a fair amount (my standards not Adrian chiles') MFP has my last 3 weeks at 3000kcal a day average (lots of eating out so that could be way off in either direction) I've put on 2lb in 3 weeks.
For me at least it isn't as simple as eat less means lose same kcals worth of fat. Fortunately it's also not as simple as eat more = gain loads so i don't worry* about having gluttonous days.
*i wouldn't worry either way for me, i like my food and beer, so long as I'm not especially porcine it's all good.
I took off my 32" waist jeans without unfastening my belt last night. I have to drink to make sure I get enough empty calories 😉
It is very simple calories out must exceed calories in, find out maintenance calories and then eat less than this.
The easiest way is to STOP EATING CRAP.
If you keep asking the same question in the hope someone will come up with an answer you like and also works, you'll be waiting a long time.
Sorry to be blunt but getting fit and in shape is a mind training exercise the body just comes along for the ride.
I took off my 32″ waist jeans without unfastening my belt last night.
Technically that just means that you're crap at doing belts up properly and that's not really something to boast about.
Joking aside, I think there's a bunch of genetics involved here. Some people are just an odd shape and can't use belts effectively.
I could take my 30" waist jeans off with the buttons done up and without even wearing a belt 😉
Still having pizza and beer tonight Kryton?
I took off my 32″ waist jeans without unfastening my belt last night.
I too have a waist that's wider than my hips.
I haven't waited until tonight Mr P...
Beer and pizza at lunchtime? You dirty dog 😉
I can take my 28" jeans off without using my hands.
I get someone else to take my jeans off me 💃
Your carer?
Ha.
I took off my 32″ waist jeans without unfastening my belt last night. I have to drink to make sure I get enough empty calories
Elasticated old man trousers don’t count.