[Closed] Sign Article 50 ASAP Petition

Sure find me something the UK has a powerful position on?

I disagree, we have quite a large card to play.

no, we have one card... and it ain't a high card, and those holding the aces know we dont have a high card.

It's the 6th biggest economy in the world!

Until we "sign" article 50, we're still part of the EU, still pay our money, still receive funding in return, and still part of making the rules, decisions and vote on issues. The only thing that has changed on the EU side is attitudes of other countries in that they may be less likely to side with us on things.

The referendum only did one thing regarding the EU and that was indicate an attitude of the British public.

nedrapier - Member
It's the 6th biggest economy in the world!

The only thing that has changed on the EU side is attitudes of other countries in that they may be less likely to side with us on things.

Why has there not been similar from Leave?

The SNP is a political party with a position of pwoer and the ability to form a government. As such they could prepare a manifesto.

What the Leave campaign was based upon was control. For the ability of whatever government we elect to run our country as we see fit. As I said its the Government in 2020 who will have the reigns to determine our future outside the EU

Except our government had control. A cursory look at the European and UK legislative process would show you that...

mikewsmith >> Sure find me something the UK has a powerful position on?

The speed of the exit.

At this point we should play poker...

jambalaya >> The SNP is a political party with a position of pwoer and the ability to form a government. As such they could prepare a manifesto.

It was a white paper and not a manifesto. There is no reason why Leave or Remain (to be fair) could have not done similar

Where has all this 'it takes 5-10 yrs to negotiate a trade agreement' come from?

Looking at what exists now around the world, agreements between the EU and South Korea took 2 years (negotiations started in 2007 and it were signed in 2009!)

The euro process was started in 1999 and actually introduced in 2002 (a massive project and only 3 yrs).

The original 6 member states of Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Italy and Luxemburg only took 6 years (1951-58) to establish the forerunner to the EU and that was starting from scratch with no template to work from.

There really are some 'glass half empty' types in here who could even be accused of scaremongering in the way they have accused the Leavers and the supposed ramifications of the decision.

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Can't be so hard on them not as if any of them had met before

deviant - Member
Where has all this 'it takes 5-10 yrs to negotiate a trade agreement' come from?

I'm guessing Danny who has been posting may have some direct experience on them

Anyone see this comment doing the rounds on social media?

https://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/77205935

I'm an idiot, so don't know if it's applicable/true/horseshit, but seemed interesting for you political big hitters to comment on.

This follow up is a nice counterpoint, tho 🙂

https://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/77299261

One issue that was raised yesterday was the UK's lack of experienced negotiators amongst the civil service, the figure was put at fewer than 30 I believe.
Also the legislative time to sort this all out will take years, well beyond the two years from when Article 50 is invoked. Hence the need to enact a law to transfer [b]all[/b] of the current EU regulations and directives onto the UK statute books and then slowly pick out the ones to keep.
There may well be an outcry when this is made clear- as the first thing the new look government who are going " Take control" is to enshrine all of EU law onto the books!

mikewsmith >> At this point we should play poker...

I don't gamble, sorry.

Think we did it before but yes BoJo has screwed up. He needs to step up, if he doesn't he is a fraud/weak/opportunist but if he does knows even if he delivers the magic "CONTROL" he has lost as the rest was all BS

@jimw The 'unpicking' of all of the laws from the EU may not be needed. A free trade deal with EU may require us to adopt EU laws anyway, a la Norway

What the Leave campaign was based upon was control.

early days admittedly, but this control thing looks pretty far fetched so far

Adopting the Euro did not start in 1999, there would have been years of negotiation and backroom work before this. Something we the UK have not probably done, looking at how trade deals would work outside the EU.

As for the ECSC, this was not political integration but economic, so far more simplistic in setting up, a completely different kettle of fish to where we are now. So to compare time frames is not realistic.

dmorts, hence why I said in the future it would actually mean less control. As it is far easier just to say, we will still retain those laws in these areas etc.

[quote=nedrapier ]It's the 6th biggest economy in the world!

Unfortunately that fact alone disguises the fact that the bulk of our GDP comes form finance and services, both of which can up sticks to Paris or Frankfurt in the blink of an eye if they think it makes their lives easier. They just need to change offices effectively.

OK, say it takes 3 years but that will require fewer of them to be done concurrently (throw more resources each one but do fewer of them).

120 to get through 3 at a time. 40 x 3 years=120 years.

I don't have direct experience but have researched the knowledge of that do.

Of course they may have just been scaremongering but simple maths dictates a long time to get them all. Of course some will be a priority but they will in general be the complicated ones so will take the longest.

US, Germany, China, India, France, Japan, S Korea will be crucial but nothing will happen on any of them until A50 is sorted so two years minimum until we get going and then say 3 years absolute best case two at a time so 11 or so years then get on with the other 110+.

Simples eh? Remember we only have 12 people to do the negotiating.

The UK has nothing to negotiate with

To the contrary, we are in a very strong place as a major purchaser from the EU, a rich country which buys many high value items like cars. We've already seen Merkel come out to disagree with Junker and Tusk. Note some European stock markets are down more than the UK as a Brexit is particularly bad for them. Also if the UK is seen to be getting a bad deal it would harden the already significant eurosceptic feelings within Europe.

Or if we get a good deal, others would also think they could get a good deal out of the EU?

They just need to change offices effectively.

Its a bit too early to say but look at Apple which books all its European business (and 60%) of its global profits through Ireland with a tapken brass-plate presence. It may be a case of just a handful of jobs, it may be none.

To the contrary, we are in a very strong place as a major purchaser from the EU, a rich country which buys many high value items like cars.

Also if the UK is seen to be getting a bad deal it would harden the already significant eurosceptic feelings within Europe.

Read the winners and losers of the Aus/China deal

still receive funding in return

Yeah, right. Do you honestly think that will continue for long? Already committed projects, maybe, but if you think an organisation would give money to a member so hell-bent on leaving and causing as much damage as possible in the process, you need your head seeing to.

@jamba-at the moment we have the best possible trade deal such Germany. Complete and unfettered access to their market.

We cannot get better. We may get the same but not better.

The important thing time remember is that a trade deal is much more than tariffs-its about compliance with safety regs for example. At the moment anything made in any European country is deemed compliant.

Move away from that and bring in customs controls, compliance testing in country of destination etc and bring in costs over and above tariffs and over and above anything we have now.

Anything we trade with Europe will have to meet EU regs but proof will be required.

So to trade with Europe we'll be (and by VL's admission in the campaign) worse off.

The assumption is we'll get better trade deals with other countries to offset this. However the trade deals already in place are pretty good so we're likely to maintain the status quo in many cases.

At what point will I stop feeling that half of the people of my country self-harmed and tried to hurt everybody else in the country and the EU in the process due to arse-about-face non-logic?
Many of the intelligent and considered people of the country are traumatised by it.

The idiots will be jubilant and the people who just "took a punt on" leaving may now possibly starting to think about what they did.

The other petition is doing well

We cannot get better. We may get the same but not better.

They sell much more to us yet we pay into the EU budget and have to accept free movement of people and ECJ rulings. The other non EU members with trade deals sell more than they buy so it makes sense for them to contribute. IMO it makes no sense for us to contribute, none at all.

All the testing etc you speak of China, India, Australia and the US etc seem to mange ok

and have to [s]accept[/s][b]benefit from[/b] free movement of people and have ECJ rulings[b] to keep us decent like the good moral human beings we are[/b].

All the testing etc you speak of China, India, Australia and the US etc seem to mange ok

The testing of course is manageable but costs money, money UK manufacturing doesn't have to pay at the moment.

Whether we have to contribute or not depends on the deal. Every other country in the single market has to pay and has to accept the free movement of people regardless of whether they have a seat at the table.

Daniel Hannan has said the free movement will continue in any event...

i don't think anyone on the Brexit side has ever suggested that they want us outside the common market.

What is essentially in play in the forthcoming negotiations is how much we have to give up to retain it. Of course - the EU will be keen to make sure free movement is sacrosanct, we will want the opposite.

Such is the nature of negotiation.

What we could potentially see is deals on what constitutes freedom of movement of *labour* which could see reigning in of who was entitled to support or assistance from the state, housing benefit, tax credits etc. or the qualifying times for such. There are several other EU countries that would likely be on board with that.

we will want the opposite.

Ninfan - Carswell has said no to the single market - so there's one.

Seems to me leave don't actually know what they want

Seems to me leave don't actually know what they want

I think one thing's fairly clear, they don't actually want to leave any more than a petulant teenager wants to leave their parents' cooking, heating, washing, ironing, chauffeuring, etc, etc, etc...

I think one thing's fairly clear, they don't actually want to leave any more than a petulant teenager wants to leave their parents' cooking, heating, washing, ironing, chauffeuring, etc, etc, etc...

Massive generalisation.

I voted to leave and I'm more than happy with the decision.

I got fed up with British legal decisions being overturned by a European court, I got fed up with how a common trading area (a good idea by the way) had become a European state with a parliament of all things!, I got jittery about the talk of a European army, I got fed up with poor countries like Greece fudging their books to join simply to go on the take....their economy failing (surprise surprise) and then watched in disbelief as a spiteful EU dictated terms to them and effectively blackmailed them into staying.....the corruption on all sides has become staggering.

But yeah, the referendum must be wrong, only those wanting to stay can be right etc etc blah blah boring cry some more.....

I got fed up with British legal decisions being overturned by a European court,

had become a European state with a parliament of all things!,

I got jittery about the talk of a European army,

Deviant

I voted to leave and I'm more than happy with the decision.
I got fed up with British legal decisions being overturned by a European court, I got fed up with how a common trading area (a good idea by the way) had become a European state with a parliament of all things!, I got jittery about the talk of a European army, I got fed up with poor countries like Greece fudging their books to join simply to go on the take....their economy failing (surprise surprise) and then watched in disbelief as a spiteful EU dictated terms to them and effectively blackmailed them into staying.....the corruption on all sides has become staggering.

I suspect that you are going to
Be very disappponted.

What we could potentially see is deals on what constitutes freedom of movement of *labour* which could see reigning in of who was entitled to support or assistance from the state, housing benefit, tax credits etc. or the qualifying times for such. There are several other EU countries that would likely be on board with that.

That's the stupidity of the whole situation. You can pitch up in Luxembourg or Germany with no job, be entitled to live here/there and NOT be entitled to any benefits/healthcare unless you're working. The UK could have implemented this but for whatever reason CHOSE not to. Last time I checked, neither Germany nor Luxembourg have left the EU.