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Data is king in all areas of life now (including this website) - if Tesco want to send me a voucher for 30% off something I’d buy anyway I’m fine with that.
Also helps them be more efficient in stocking stores with the right stuff at the right time.
You did read the T&Cs, didn’t you?
Of course not. And now that you’re now effectively charged for opting out (club card prices) many people have no choice but to accept the use and sale of their data. It’s not really a choice for many.
I very rarely have cash, been the case for well before covid. Much easier to use a card, phone or watch.
And yes it does cost to pay cash into a bank for businesses, not only for paying it in but for the time taken to pay it in. There’s a big risk of staff adding a little to their pockets.
The bar I sometimes help out at installed a reader during covid, the takings since have been far higher as people have their card or phone with them but not always cash or much of it. The machine was paid outright around £100 iirc and the fees are small .
Last time I helped we took over £1k in a few hours, less than £150 of that wash cash. The fees for the remaining amount were less than £20. The cash is still in the safe as someone has to take it to the bank and pay it in.
No, we shouldn’t go totally cashless but it certainly doesn’t have to everywhere.
Interesting likewise around here it’s the Chinese restaurants who are cash only, lots of cafes are card only and are no dearer than those who accept both.
Gobuchul I pay into a personal TSB account and then transfer it to Chase.
Bet your bookkeeper loves you.
I’m not seeing much empathy with those struggling with their budget due to poor mental health, poverty or a lack education here.
Cash is vitally important for this group and for that reason I’d make it illegal not to take cash.
I think the word you were looking for was sympathy.
Why is cash any easier to manage than digital? Accounts offer pots already, it's not hard to have an account for money to get paid into and bills to come out and a separate one for spending money to go into.
Hell of a lot easier to spaff cash on the bookies/off licence than with a technical block in place.
And now that you’re now effectively charged for opting out (club card prices)
Hmm, so Tesco are essentially paying you for your data. In a capitalist society you sell what commodities you have to sell, don't you? It's a bit like say, renting out a room in your house - you lose some privacy but gain some money.
The real problem isn't Tesco, or card payments, it's the fact that society lets people get poor enough to need to do this against their will.
That said - what actually happens to this data? We recently signed up to the Asda one which simply gives us a lot of cash back rather than the voucher dance you get with Tesco. I haven't seen a single Asda advert on any channel since we signed up, so they do not appear to be using it for targetted ads. They may not be using it for anything personal to me - it's possible that they would use it to optimise their own business.
Those with loyalty cards. You didn’t give them your real details, did you?
It is if you don’t have a fixed address I think.
That's an issue for sure but not one that's insurmountable.
Of course not. And now that you’re now effectively charged for opting out (club card prices) many people have no choice but to accept the use and sale of their data. It’s not really a choice for many.
How many big supermarkets exist in isolation? Precious few I'd imagine.
That aside, clubcard prices are good old fashioned kidology, they're always for premium goods and can always be found cheaper elsewhere if there's not already a decent alternative. It's straight out the DFS playbook.
Club card and Nectar card prices are now on staples.
Cashless transactions are a perfect tool to harvest data and behavioural information about individuals by banks, corporations and the government. So in the absence of cash, best hope that you agree with whichever government gets into power, and that your data is kept secure and is not used for nefarious reasons.
With a side order of what Mols said,
Such as?
I bought a vegan sausage roll from Greggs last week. For what nefarious reasons would you suggest that a hostile government might use that data, should I be fearing a visit from Big Pork?
To my mind it is a way of stopping anyone knowing what I am buying and using that data for all sorts of purposes including targeted advertising.
You're going to be advertised at. Fact. Would you rather see adverts for things you're interested in, or things you aren't?
Tother thing is that cash is safer to lose. If I lose it all I lose is the few quid I carry. If I lose my card what a pain including dealing with the banks t claim back everything nicked with contact less buying.
No, it's the opposite. If you lose cash, it's 100% gone before it's hit the ground. If you lose your card then the bank will refund fraudulent transactions.
now that you’re now effectively charged for opting out (club card prices) many people have no choice but to accept the use and sale of their data. It’s not really a choice for many.
Well, yes and no.
I've seen this specifically with Clubcard for a long time though I don't doubt that other large retailers are pulling the same trick. I've always refused a Nectar card because the rewards were crap but Sainsburys has recently gone the same route. The Clubcard/Nectar card price is the normal price, the non-card price is hugely inflated.
But here we are. This is absolutely the choice. You pay a premium for corner-shop convenience or you go to the big chains. If you go to the hugely-discounted-over-the-high-street chains then the cost instead of Idleness Tax is the store card which they can later use to send you vouchers for things you might actually buy.
Your perceived lack of choice is that you don't want to pay full price for things but also don't want to countenance any alternative. It's the STW subscribe / adverts / ad blocker argument in different pants, isn't it. Bottom line is, you can't have it both ways and then cry when suppliers go pop.
I always carry cash and am indifferent about whether I pay cash or card.
As for any 'loyalty' cards/schemes - not for me; massive data collection programmes dressed up as a customer benefit.
Only for mugs.
As for any ‘loyalty’ cards/schemes – not for me; massive data collection programmes dressed up as a customer benefit.
Only for mugs.
You're already balls deep in metadata unless you're amish or a hermit. Drop in the ocean at this point.
This is absolutely the choice.
Our local "corner-shop convenience" is also owned by Sainsburys.
"Choice" isn't really a choice when you can't afford to pay more to avoid being tracked. So most people are tracked. They don't want to be, they're not really "opting in", they are just having to accept the situation. It's not really choice. Well, it might be for the well off.
This may well be true, but it's still a choice even if it's Hobson's. The alternative scenario if we removed Clubcard et al is not "yay, no more tracking," it's that everyone now pays more. Good news for local business perhaps, a bad day for those very consumers you say can't afford to pay two quid for a can of baked beans.
This place is afloat because of some people subscribing and others being served adverts. Say Mark turns off advertising tomorrow, what do you suppose would happen? I'd guess either a) subs prices would have to double, or b) the site would go pop.
I don't want to be tracked. I also don't want to pay £25 for an £18 slab of beer. Which do I not want the most?
As for any ‘loyalty’ cards/schemes – not for me; massive data collection programmes dressed up as a customer benefit.
Only for mugs.
Dressed up? What do you mean? We get a £50 off our shopping at Asda every few months for letting them know what we buy at the shop. I think this is a fair trade, personally. Or put it the other way round, I don't fancy paying £50 every few months just to keep the contents of my basket private. There are things to be concerned about in the modern world, but I don't think this is one of them, for me. I don't think I'm being a mug here?
If you're paying with a card they pretty much have the data on you anyway. You're a mug if you don't sign up
The alternative scenario if we removed Clubcard et al is not “yay, no more tracking,” it’s that everyone now pays more.
Nah, the non-club/nectar card prices on staple food items are now totally artificial, it's a charge to stop people opting out. People don't buy at those prices. Everyone just accepts the tracking to avoid the charge.
If you’re paying with a card they pretty much have the data on you anyway
No, they don't. They can't use the card id to link together your visits and profile you. It's not legal. They won't even store any card id themselves.
Nah, the non-club/nectar card prices on staple food items are now totally artificial, it’s a charge to stop people opting out. People don’t buy at those prices. Everyone just accepts the tracking to avoid the charge
I don't think Asda do special club-card pricing like this. You just get a voucher every so often if you scan your card - a bit like the Co-Op.
Even the Co-op now do “member prices” on standard food items.
Another lockdown in a cashless UK? Can you imagine the restrictions then? The last lot of restrictions were way OTT and unjustified at the expense of peoples health jobs and livelihoods etc etc.
What happens when a rogue government gets into power like we have now? Do you trust that lot or any politician? If your answer to that is yes then you need sectioning.
Sez the obvious QNut is obvious. *rollseyes*
Go and play in the road, why don’t you.
It must be terrible for people on the streets for instance, they’ve been hearing “sorry mate, I don’t have any change” forever but these days there’s a high chance that it’s likely true.
In my case, the only time I’ve had loose change in the last few months has been in the last week or so, when I mugged the ATM for some notes to stick in my brother’s Christmas card, as he’d rather have cash than a present, and I bought a kebab on my way home, and they only take cash. After I chucked the small stuff left from a tenner in the tip bucket I’ve got a £2 coin. That’ll go in the plastic chewing gum pot I keep in the car for whatever shrapnel I collect just in case I need some for parking purposes.
And yes, I know most car parks have contactless, but many don’t, and street parking now has meters that either require some random app, or a QR code that takes you to the parking company. Allegedly.
Around Bristol and a few other places, there are bogus QR code stickers being put on the machines which take you to a bogus payment site, which then has your payment information…
That’s not a conspiracy theory, warnings have been put out on BBC Points West news, and I wondered how long that would take.
Maybe they’ll do the sensible thing and put proper contactless pads on the machines, instead of something that’s so very easy to be messed around with.
Local Waitrose got stung last year with £50 notes. I’m probably more diligent than a Saturday girl on minimum wage.<br /><br />
When Joey worked in B&M along the road, the till staff were specifically instructed not to accept £50 notes. There was a spate of scruffy kids coming into the store wanting to buy a tenners worth of stuff and offering a £50 note, sometimes they might have a scruffy looking adult, usually a woman with them, also with a basket with a few odds and ends in, and also offering a £50 note.
I think I’ve only ever had a single £50 note in my entire life, yet these people seemed to be rolling in them…
Not sure who they were, but there’s a traveller site about a mile outside of town…
Apart from the kebab guys, the chippy just along the road only accepts cash, but if I go a bit further away, the other chippies take cards and are cheaper. 🤷🏼
Oh, and my tattooist only accepts cash, but all the artists rent a space, so it’s just easier for them.
No, they don’t. They can’t use the card id to link together your visits and profile you. It’s not legal. They won’t even store any card id themselves.
Whilst they won't store card details they can create a token that will track your card. They can't tie it back to you and use it to identify you and it does rely on you using the same card every time you shop, but it does fill in some of the picture.
Whilst they won’t store card details they can create a token that will track your card. They can’t tie it back to you and use it to identify you and it does rely on you using the same card every time you shop, but it does fill in some of the picture.
No, the worst case in that scenario is that they link transactions to a card (and even doing that is questionable under the principle of data minimisation - how does a retailer justify the need to keep this information?). Getting from a card to you as an individual would need your bank to be sharing your personal details with the retailer.
even doing that is questionable under the principle of data minimisation – how does a retailer justify the need to keep this information?).
There is no need for data minimisation. No personal data has been stored if the card number has been tokenised, so the shop can store whatever they like.
Getting from a card to you as an individual would need your bank to be sharing your personal details with the retailer.
The shop doesn't need your personal information, they don't don't anything useful with the pii in a loyalty scheme if you turn off spam. All they use the data for is to allow them to build pictures of customers shopping behaviours, which is completely legal.
Google even track your offline credit card purchases against online ads
Getting from a card to you as an individual would need your bank to be sharing your personal details with the retailer.
That's what I said. They can't tie it back to you and use it to identify you. Pretty much every large retailer is doing this to build a picture of customer spending habits. What they can't do is identify you, that's what the loyalty ID is for, that's the bit that enables them (with your agreement) to tie the txns back to you, whichever card/payment type you're using and as long as you identify yourself on every txn.
Cash is being used increasingly as people find it easier to budget
I'm happy to use, and keep using, both.
A £5 note will always be worth £5.
Each time a cashless transfer is made, someone somewhere is paying for that service. So, the value of the transferred money is slightly less once the transfer is complete.
We also have to accept that the banks and government will have a greater level of control over who and when and how transfers are made.
Should UK go cashless?
Will there be a choice ?
Google even track your offline credit card purchases against online ads
How?
Each time a cashless transfer is made, someone somewhere is paying for that service. So, the value of the transferred money is slightly less once the transfer is complete.
There are transaction costs, retailer margins, and more importantly taxes, however you pay.
No personal data has been stored if the card number has been tokenised, so the shop can store whatever they like
If the card token was being used to identify an individual then it would fall under the same category as a user ID or customer number.
All this "being tracked" tinfoil stuff, cashless and only using cash occasionally are not the same are they?
Don't like cash, like the convenience of my watch and phone being available with me almost all the time.
But ASDA won't take my watch/phone payments and I have to use my card. I have only been to ASDA twice last year and failed at checkout both times. Cash would have saved the embarrassment at the till.
And my son checks my pockets for money, but now he asks for all his money to be paid into his Go Henry. I have two bags of coins (over £100) from his dodgy bubblegum mobile school shop.
If the card token was being used to identify an individual then it would fall under the same category as a user ID or customer number.
It's not though, there's nothing personally identifiable in the token that would enable me to tie it back to an individual without a loyalty or customer ID. The token's being used to identify the card without the need to store sensitive card information.
I don’t want to be tracked. I also don’t want to pay £25 for an £18 slab of beer. Which do I not want the most?
I buy the beer elsewhere. Clubcard pricing should be treated as what it is. A fine on not registering with Tesco - not a discount.
So far nearly everything I need is possible without dual pricing. Dual priced goods stay on the shelf.
I think certain shops should have to accept cash. Big supermarkets, pharmacies, fuel stations etc
Far too many people are not ready for cashless.
I also don't believe that there is not the potential for our whole electronic banking system to just go pop. I am not the only person I know who extracted a good chunk of cash when covid hit. Just in case.. Lost nothing by it .
I think certain shops should have to accept cash. Big supermarkets, pharmacies, fuel stations etc
I often wonder how the law would see this.
If I went into a shop that was 'card only' - went to the checkout with £50s worth of stuff, and plonked £50 in notes on the counter - could they legally refuse the cash? And if I walked out with the goods would they count that as shoplifting? Even though payment with legal tender had been made.
If I went into a shop that was ‘card only’ – went to the checkout with £50s worth of stuff, and plonked £50 in notes on the counter – could they legally refuse the cash? And if I walked out with the goods would they count that as shoplifting? Even though payment with legal tender had been made.
Legal tender doesn't mean what you think it does.
When a shop displays goods with a price it is "an invitation to treat", the shop can refuse to sell you the goods when you take them to the till, without giving you a reason. They can also offer to sell them to you but at an increased price.
And yes that would be shoplifting.
I think fuel on the forecourt might be a grey area for cash as it's creating a debt or something so legal tender has to be accepted
do the cashless voters not have multiple bank accounts and credit cards, why anyone would risk just one debit and or one credit card is beyond me. its like carrying your total cash in one pocket, rather than splitting it up and keeping some at home..
do the cashless voters not have multiple bank accounts and credit cards, why anyone would risk just one debit and or one credit card is beyond me. its like carrying your total cash in one pocket, rather than splitting it up and keeping some at home..
Yes.
Debit card - like carrying the entire shoebox of money stored under the mattress, but practical, secure and insured.
Joint account debit card - another shoebox of cash.
Savings account card - the stuff stuffed in the mattress.
Credit card - cash that doesn't even really exist until next month.
All taking up less space in my pocket than a folded £20 note.
Isn't cash the bigger risk? Your only fallback is any insurance you have.
With digital banking, there's a chance you get the money back after fraud, you can cancel a card or payment method if it's stolen etc.
If I lose my debit card that's not the same as losing cash. I can block the card immediately with the app on my phone so my cash is secure. Even if someone found my card they would only be able to spend £80 I think at a time, and I'd get notified if they did so my exposure is limited. If I carried around all my cash in a bag and dropped it, it'd be gone.
Even if someone found my card they would only be able to spend £80 I think at a time, and I’d get notified if they did so my exposure is limited
I'm pretty sure that if you notified the bank in a reasonable timeframe you'd get all of that back (so long as they weren't pin transactions which would indicate you'd been complicit)
I think the points made about vulnerable people being excluded from many banking services are very good ones. Because forcing everyone to use such services discriminates against such vulnerable and excluded people. so good reason to keep cash for a good while yet. Of course; if we treated everyone properly, and considered all their individual needs, we wouldn't have such concerns, but we don't live in such a nice world. Instead, we live in one where control of all transactions is desired by an elite few, who of course profit massively from this. The argument about such control of transactions preventing crime is pretty weak when put in context of the true effects of greater global capitalism; we are seeing horrific wars being prolonged by those with a vested interest in profiting from them, and irreparable environmental destruction occurring on a daily basis in the name of consumerism, so on a moral level, global drugs trade networks are a drop in the ocean in comparison.
My mum couldn't cope with any form of modern technology, so things like debit cards and online payments etc were utterly terrifying to her. She'd toddle off to the local bank branch to withdraw hundreds of pounds in cash at a time. She'd then use this for all her shopping, paying bills at the post office, paying her carer, cabs etc. Yes of course all this would have been easier had she used electronic services more, but it gave her peace of mind to be able to physically control a transaction. Removing this option would have impacted very negatively on her mental health. So when some people talk about removing cash altogether being more convenient for them, I'd like to remind you that it's very important to consider all people in society, and not just yourself.
To counter the above, my elderly dad with dementia is much happier using a contactless debit card than managing cash himself. Also much easier to monitor by me.
whilst that may be so, no-one cried about cheques being removed as a method of payment in nearly all scenarios. I worked on a checkout at a supermarket 20 years ago and we'd get about 1-in-20 people paying with cheque. I suspect a decade before that it was much higher.
To counter the above, my elderly dad with dementia is much happier using a contactless debit card than managing cash himself. Also much easier to monitor by me
That's great, but:
I’d like to remind you that it’s very important to consider all people in society, and not just yourself.
I think it's very important to enable all people to have agency for themselves as much as possible. Having cash helped my mum in this way, and does so for many others. Having the actual money to count out, so see how much she'd spend, how much change she had, gave her a peace of mind she would not have had from 'invisible' online/electronic transactions. This helped massively with her anxiety and mental health. It was a pain in the bum for me at times but then; it wasn't about me.
I was thinking of the people caring for the vulnerable people. But agreed, there will be many situations where people use cash.
I can't see it going. Which removes one of the benefits of digital currency, so can't see that happening either.
surely the point being that a combo of both is a good thing & for that reason UK shouldn’t go cashless.
This pretty much sums it up, anyone that wants to stop using cash now is free to do so as it stands, seems some people want to ban other's from using cash because they personally don't want to. Businesses should ( and do) have the option of whether they accept cash or not and we are all free to choose where and how to spend our money. Choice is the answer, not getting rid of cash altogether
I worked on a checkout at a supermarket 20 years ago and we’d get about 1-in-20 people paying with cheque.
That feels remarkably high. Are you sure?
I don't remember the last time I saw a cheque in the wild at all, let alone an incidence of one in 20. It's surely a lot longer than 20 years ago, 30 or 40 perhaps. Debit cards were introduced in 1987, the concept of a Cheque Guarantee Card was abolished in 2011.
No-one complained about cheques going away because they never went away, they just became obsolete for regular transactions.
seems some people want to ban other’s from using cash because they personally don’t want to
I understand, although don't necessarily agree with the edge cases that have been made, but using cash costs us as tax payers money which may be better spent elsewhere. So I do want to see cash phased out if alternatives for those folk where there are perceived benefits can be provided.
This pretty much sums it up, anyone that wants to stop using cash now is free to do so as it stands, seems some people want to ban other’s from using cash because they personally don’t want to
Choice is the answer, not getting rid of cash altogether
You get it with wheel size, gearing, media platforms, games consoles, anything! Trying to cancel other peoples choice to bolster superiority complexes and vested interests, pathetic isn't it.
Something else just occurred to me.
Is not having a register full of cash going to have a positive impact on crime rates?
People are just walking in and taking stuff off the shelves now – far easier than robbing a till.
That’s not a new concept.
Yeah, I guess I've watched too many fly-on-the-wall cop shows on TV.
I agree with the Pothead. I don't use cash. I don't understand why people aren't perfectly happy for others to keep doing so. Just don't make me pay cash, and I'm sorted... let everyone else manage their money however they see fit.
Hang on... if I still smoked (stopped completely as we entered the year 2000) then I'd have a use for cash myself... hmm...
Cash isn't going anywhere. There's still 8m people in the UK dependent on it and it accounts for a higher proportion of payment volumes than credit cards (not just retail POS but paying your plumber, your window cleaner, Kevin's cigarette dealer...)
There's a huge concern that as digital services are more widely adopted (physical cards will disappear eventually), those that struggle with access to those digital services become increasingly shut out. The govt will legislate to protect the use of cash.
physical cards will disappear eventually
I hope they don't
Choice is the answer, not getting rid of cash altogether
Well there is a significant cost associated with making and handling all that cash, so to get a benefit you'd have to remove cash altogether but this is not likely to be possible as above.
My concern would be if cash was removed the service providers would increase the costs for handling the card/electronic transactions. I don't think there has been any reduction in transaction charges, even though there must now be a huge per transaction reduction with technology. It seems to be a bit of a unofficial cartel without any real competition between providers, cash is currently the competition that prevents the charges from increasing.
I barely use cash, I keep a small amount in my wallet just in case, but if the annual card charges and transaction charges started to increase, I would prefer the option to use cash instead.
I barely use cash, I keep a small amount in my wallet just in case, but if the annual card charges and transaction charges started to increase, I would prefer the option to use cash instead.
Good point - cash goes and enshitification will soon come knocking.
As pointed out before cash won't officially disappear but in any real sense it will if retailers and service providers stop accepting it. There are a very small percentage of people who rely on it, they are not significant enough for most retailers to keep cash going in the long run. The fewer people use cash the more expensive it becomes per transaction it is to handle, it's not just the cost of the cash handling either, it's also the infrastructure around it. A self service (or manned) till that handles cash is significantly more complex and expensive to buy and maintain (lots of moving parts, especially in self service) versus a card only till. As it becomes more difficult to use cash (have to queue to use the manned till for example) more of the cashless deniers will move over leaving an ever dwindling core of people who are totally reliant on cash.
I would say Covid tipped us over into the inevitable slide into real world cashless, with only 15% of transactions being cash, its on it's way out. There might be a slight pause due to the cost of living but that's all it is, a temporary slow down.
Cashless won't be forced on people directly by the people on here who are happy to go completely cashless but the trend is there. Using cash is going to become increasingly more difficult and expensive for the user anyway, free cash points and bank branches are disappearing fast, maybe small retailers like some on here will continue to actively take cash but then the consumer pays the corner shop tax.
I don’t remember the last time I saw a cheque in the wild at all, let alone an incidence
They are still out there, I’ve had about a dozen since I bought a launderette. Mostly old folks but a local care home still pays by cheque and sends everything by post.
Cash to me is a pain to handle because my machines take coins and they are hassle to bag plus banks want to charge me to deposit them. I installed a contactless payment system and that has made my life much easier. I think the 3% transaction fees plus £12pm per terminal (that I had to purchase) is higher than necessary but worth paying for the reduced hassle. Take away cash and I fear the fees would increase.
Also, there are all sorts of people out there who struggle with any type of technology and certainly aren’t going to be juggling multiple bank accounts to control their finances. Stepping out of an office and dealing with the public in general has been something of an eye opener for me.
There are some economically active people who operate on a cash only basis, don't use banks or have cards; no records, no traceability, no/limited tax payments.
It would certainly stuff their operating model - and I would be very much in favour of that outcome.
I'm sure that payment networks are highly secure but an economy which was hugely reliant on such networks/systems would likely be seen as a real target for large scale and focussed cyber attacks by hostile states.
That's undoubtedly been happening to an extent but...
Won't somebody think of the children?
Big drop in child surgery for objects swallowed or stuck up nose - BBC News
I wonder how it would affect the supply and distribution of Illegal Drug ? Seems to me that all transactions are cash, take that away and how else would they fund / pay for it ?
In gibsons neuromancer trilogy there are old banknotes going round and round the black market.
I suspect also that going cashless would not be too tricky in the black market
The fewer people use cash the more expensive it becomes per transaction it is to handle
Big problem in Australia at the moment - the govt just had to shepherd through a kind of bailout for the last serious cash in transit company there.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-24/banks-offer-lifeline-to-cash-transporter-armaguard/104014250
What would the 'turkish' barbers do?
4 in my High Street.
Never seen any punters in them.
HMRC. Listening?
Drug supply has moved on from cash.
the only people i know who want cash to remain are tradesmen or tradies
There's another important sector of the economy that insists on cash. Or so I've heard.
What would the 'turkish' barbers do?
4 in my High Street.
Never seen any punters in them.
HMRC. Listening?
I can neither confirm nor deny.
Though my English barber is also cash only. And was very busy this afternoon.