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As in the USA. Why not?
I'd prefer tiger feet
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I've nothing against vests or t-shirts so I'd say yes. It'd be a no to short-sleeved shirts though. Or guns, obviously.
As in the USA. Why not?
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate ]Firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population per year[/url]:
USA: 10.5
UK: 0.26
That's why.
My arms are pretty hairy already. I don't want bear arms.
I wear shorts almost all year round but a wife beater would be taking the piss. It's cold today mind you, so I might have to buy some trousers.
I came in here to make the vest / t-shirt joke but I've been beaten to it.....
I'll get my gilet. š
I was thinking of those defenseless people in the Bataclan; perhaps there may have been fewer fatalities if they'd been able to fight back. Compare and contrast that attack and the one which was stopped in its tracks earlier this year in Texas thanks to the actions of armed 'good guys'.
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A bear-armed society is a polite society.
[i]Compare and contrast that attack and the one which was stopped in its tracks earlier this year in Texas thanks to the actions of armed 'good guys'[/i]
which one in Texas?
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I was thinking of those defenseless people in the Bataclan; perhaps there may have been fewer fatalities if they'd been able to fight back.
Not sure how it works in America, but I suspect most places that allow guns are still a bit wary of allowing a bunch of drunk people to carry them into a death metal concert.
Also French police are armed but that didn't seem to help that much.
We do, it may not be part of any fundamental rule of law but in Britain you can legally own any use a huge range of weapons simply by applying for the required license. For shotguns you simply have to apply for a license and unless the Police have justifiable reason to deny it, you can have one. You do have to show justification for having a rifle in the broadest sense - I.E. have access to somewhere sensible to use them, you can even have a semi-automatic if you keep to .22.
So for hunting, pest control and range shooting you're pretty well able to get whatever you want - what you can't own are full autos, semi autos over .22 or handguns - being that mostly they're designed for killing humans.
Because they were minutes away when seconds mattered.
I was thinking of those defenseless people in the Bataclan; perhaps there may have been fewer fatalities if they'd been able to fight back
Tell me, given the level on confusion that there woul undoubtedly have been how exactly would these people have known who were the terrorist and who were just "fighting back"? Quite frankly that suggestion is probably the only way to make an already horrific situation even worse!
Edit;
umm from your link
"Two gunman shot dead [b]by police[/b] after opening fire on 'anti-Islam' art exhibition organised by American Freedom Defence Initiative "
emphasis mine.
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I'll pass on the grounds that by potentially stopping the odd shooting (but more likely escalating the issue by involving untrained amateurs with likely problems with 'friendly fire') , we'd be legally arming those people who would use for bad.
[i]This one.[/i]
Two gunman shot dead by police
Do the police count as 'the public' now?
With everyone else fleeing or diving for cover the people standing firing automatic weapons while dressed for combat would be obvious targets.
but who would sell them to us?
We already have the right to have rifles and shotguns (as long as the police do not have a particular reason not to grant you a shotgun/firearm certificate).
Definitely don't think that taking a handgun with you on a night out would be a good plan. Incidents which currently involve an exchange of swear words or possibly some punches thrown would quickly escalate to lots of dead people if one or both parties were armed.
The number of people killed in very rare but atrocious incidents such as Paris would pale into insignificance compared to the daily killings that happen in the USA as Graham S' stat above demonstrates.
With everyone else fleeing or diving for cover the people standing firing automatic weapons while dressed for combat would be obvious targets.
Group A starts shooting
Person B thinks "shit I'm going to shoot back at them"
Person C thinks "holy shit there's another one I'm going to shoot at both groups"
Person D thinks "Dear mother of god another group" starts firing.
etc, etc.
Because we'd have more people killed overall, that's why.
Even if there were armed partygoers at the Bataclan, it would probably have made the situation worse - the attackers would have shot eveyone and kept firing, instead of killing something like 80 of several hundred attendees.
ohnohesback - MemberThis one.
Ah yes the shooting at the "inciting racial hatred event" or "freedom of speech" as the yanks call it.
Firstly, if the US had the same gun control laws as the UK, it would have been far, far harder for the shooters to be armed in the first place, secondly they were shot by the Police - the Police here have guns too.
We should at the very least arm anyone wanting to become a...
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[i]the people standing firing automatic weapons while dressed for combat[/i]
So terrorists start dressing like clowns and the survivalists with the guns (who all dress like they're ready for combat 24/7 already) shoot each other.
[quote=ohnohesback spake unto the masses, saying][u]As in the USA[/u]. Why not?
There's your answer, right there.
We do, it may not be part of any fundamental rule of law but in Britain you can legally own any use a huge range of weapons simply by applying for the required license. For shotguns you simply have to apply for a license and unless the Police have justifiable reason to deny it,
Yes and I often take my 12-bore to death metal gigs....
Because they were minutes away when seconds mattered.
The Bataclan attack started at 9:40pm.
The police/special forces stormed at 12:20am.
With everyone else fleeing or diving for cover the people standing firing automatic weapons while dressed for combat would be obvious targets.
What about the police who come in, dressed for combat, firing automatic weapons?
What about the metal fan, wearing doc martens and combats, firing his weapon?
How is an untrained civilian going to tell the difference in a dark concert hall filled with smoke and screaming?
It works so well in the US...
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence ]US Mass Shootings Index[/url]
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Well best of luck to you if/when such attacks happen again and you have nothing to hand to defend yourselves with.
How does one dress for combat these days? formal or smart casual? What if the doormen had a no jeans policy and you had a nice pair of levis on ?.... Its important to know..
I think someone's seen to many movies
Onhesback is this how you see yourself?
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[i]Well best of luck to you if/when such attacks happen again and you have nothing to hand to defend yourselves with. [/i]
Do you know what, I'd rather live in a society where carrying guns is not allowed and accept the risks of terrorist attacks. Statistics would seem to support me being safer too.
How does one dress for combat these days? formal or smart casual? What if the doormen had a no jeans policy and you had a nice pair of levis on ?.... Its important to know..
Anything but Crocs. No-one should have the right to bear Crocs.
Do you know what, I'd rather live in a society where carrying guns is not allowed and accept the risks of terrorist attacks. Statistics would seem to support me being safer too.
What he said.
I've personally never seen a terrorist. But I have seen plenty of blokes getting a fighty after three or four too many Stellas on a Saturday night and I'm quite glad that none of them had guns.
How does one dress for combat these days? formal or smart casual?
N+1, N=pockets, you can never have enough pockets when you're protecting your freedumbĀ®
See also:
The original post requires no comment, so I'm just going to point out that the Eagles of Death Metal aren't a death metal band.
daft idea...
but i do think that all police officers should be armed..
Well that's confusing. Are they at least eagles?
Nope they are neither Eagles, nor a Death Metal band, they're also very good in a 'don't take it too seriously way'.
I've personally never seen a terrorist. But I have seen plenty of blokes getting a fighty after three or four too many Stellas on a Saturday night and I'm quite glad that none of them had guns.
This +1
Even though I'm part of your first line of defence against Teh Terrorists (I'm PREVENT level one trained!) I'm yet to see one. We are changing the keypad codes on some of our doors though, so we're safe.
I've got a shotgun certificate, and also regularly shoot with a rifle, and will shortly be applying for my FAC.
I often go clay shooting after work and when I do I actually have my 12b in my office, and in my car on the way to and from work. So, I guess, I'm the closest to carrying a gun you'll reasonably get in the UK.
What do I think of the idea? I think it's bloody terrible. Have you seen the utter ****nuts on almost every street? Do you really want them to trade a bit of a shooing for killing each other and everyone else around? Even if I were carrying my shotgun over my shoulder, if someone wanted to nick my wallet, i'd rather them have that than I end up waving the shooty end at them or even worse, properly ****ing up and a mentally unhinged arsehole getting hold of a gun.
Look at the firearm deaths caused in America, I'm pretty damn certain they outweigh the 1 or 2 people saved by them. Anyone who thinks differently is Donald Trump.
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/p>
Note the bare arms.
<edit- FFS, someone already did my jokes.>
<another edit- double FFS, it's the dude that stole my name! AND my jokes. He's probably out the back nicking my bikes>
Even if carrying guns was legal, most venues would refuse you entry, if you were daft enough to take a gun to a gig in the first place. I don't even take my bloody phone after losing one too many.
thenorthwind - MemberThe original post requires no comment, so I'm just going to point out that the Eagles of Death Metal aren't a death metal band.
It's a minor gripe, but I was going to post the same thing.
How does one dress for combat these days? formal or smart casual?
I sort of go casual with a hint of camo on top. This was just before I nipped down to Costco for a pack or rice.
[url= https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2655/3972924986_86b4e12cae_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2655/3972924986_86b4e12cae_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/745hbE ]Trying to fit in ;-)[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
No, next question.
However, for a gloriously British take on the matter.
OP, I sort of agree with you in terms of that particular instance, yeah if I was subject to it I'd love to have a gun, and appropriate training to use it effectively.
Would I carry a gun to a concert though? One with the accuracy and range to take on terrorists with AK-47s? I doubt it, purely from a practical point of view. Would I support people (myself included) carrying guns everywhere? **** no, we'd use them on each other. Far more people would die than would be saved.
So instead, I would suggest we talk to people and try and understand and where possible reconcile our differences. It is the only way to combat violence. If we attack IS then innocent civilians will undoubtedly be killed by both sides - this isn't to say we shouldn't attack IS, just one of the inevitable consequences. If we discuss even with evil bastards like them, we may reach a solution with some or all of them, and reduce their numbers or the amount of fighting necessary to defeat them.
Absolutely terrible idea. Ridiculous question too: "Do you think everyone should be allowed to carry guns, because they're allowed to in America and they have an appalling record on firearms deaths?"
Er, no.
it's the dude that stole my name
Sorry, not intentional. Also, your bikes just fell into my car.
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Well best of luck to you if/when such attacks happen again and you have nothing to hand to defend yourselves with.
Even those that are specifically armed and charged with shooting terrorists undergo extensive training and conduct rigorous planning before acting. Joe Public would end up either shooting themselves, the wrong person or getting killed and gifting the terrorist another weapon. I don't believe a single mass shooting in the US has been stopped by any armed member of the public.
Best defence - hide or run like f##k.
I was thinking of those defenseless people in the Bataclan; perhaps there may have been fewer fatalities if they'd been able to fight back.
There might have been. Or not. No way to say.
But as has already been pointed out in this thread the Yanks seem to be doing a good job of killing more of each other than any terrorist will ever manage, so all in all that's a daft suggestion, as is the original question.
Don't be so bloody stupid. Of course we don't need guns.
Most of us already do
1689 bill of rights, go and check it!
I wouldn't trust most of the public with s driving licence let alone a gun licence.
How about a bike licence - now that's a good debate!
Why people keep showing the number of death in Merica by comparison? Are you going to go Diddy here too?
FFS! There are 200 million plus people over there not counting the illegals.
Those death are meaningless apart from human evolution.
We human need to cull ourselves. Fact!
As for carry arms in the UK unless zombie maggots are roaming the street I think our evolution is to over populate.
Why people keep showing the number of death in Merica by comparison?
Because the OP specifically asked:
[i]"Should the UK public have the right to bear arms? As in the USA"[/i]
FFS! There are 200 million plus people over there not counting the illegals.
The death by firearms figures that I and others gave are per 100,000 of population - so it doesn't matter how big their total population is.
On the subject of armed bystanders intervening to stop mass shootings: I read a book by Malcolm Gladwell a couple of years ago in which he describes a shooting of an unarmed guy in New York by 2 plain clothes (I think) policemen- trained professionals, anyway. He describes the sequence of events and the confusion of the policemen, and then says the whole thing was over in about literally about 3 seconds.
Now, I realise that gunmen stalking around for a long time in a sustained attack is a different scenario, but for me that story makes the idea that bystanders would be in any state to do anything to stop an attack sound pretty unlikely.
EDIT book is called Blink.
[url= http://thelibertarianalliance.com/2014/12/22/the-british-constitution-and-the-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms-for-defence/ ]Nothing preventing the UK public bearing arms (allegedly)[/url]
From what johnhe posted, worth noting that Switzerland, Canada and Israel all have much higher gun ownership and availability than the other countries. So while gun availability certainly allows the Yanks to shoot each other more easily, it doesnt really seem to be the reason they murder each other at such rates...
I carry a handgun, because I live in a country where one day I feel I might need it, and because I can. I also train a lot (few hundred rounds a month minimum), partly because I feel its part of the resposibility of having a gun and I also enjoy the sporting aspect of course. However I am very glad that even here where concealed carry is legal, its prohibitively expensive and extremely difficult to get the permission... Its definitely not something for everyone, or even most people.
How come brazil in never in these graphs/pictures?
TBH Bataclan is probably exactly the sort of situation where it could have made a difference- people scattered through the building, a sustained attack with a limited number of attackers, it's not the more common rapid frank exchange of views where shock and unreadiness kills your likelihood of responding no matter what. And it wasn't a situation that could really be escalated, which is another major concern. Or, possibly not- maybe someone'd have managed to shoot a suicide vest, or whatever. I think it's maybe worth acknowledging.
But this misses the wider point, which is just the cold maths of it and the near certainty that you'd have more accidental killings, more crimes of passion, more school shootings, that would massively outweigh the number of terrorist killings. They wouldn't have the same shock and awe so the response is naturally skewed, in the same way that a bin truck in glasgow gets more public attention than the other 2169 road deaths.
It has to be said, the American tradition of carrying guns all over the shop hasn't seemed to have done a huge amount with regard to protecting them from mass shootings, they seem to end mostly with a suicide rather than a plucky bystander popping a cap in their ass.
I am sure I heard a stat on the Radio the other week that more Americans are killed in America each year by Americans, than ISIS have killed since they have been going..... šÆ
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If only East Germany was a little more open about reporting statistics like this.
they seem to end mostly with a suicide rather than a plucky bystander popping a cap in their ass.
Or a plucky bystander missing the shooter and hitting an innocent bystander.
[i]but i do think that all police officers should be armed.. [/i]
Hmm, so more killed by the Police almost every month in the USA than the UK has had in a decade... Think I'll still go for "fundamentally unarmed", and probably our police would too, based on the number of police killed in the USA vs UK.
UK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom
USA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States
Northwind - MemberTBH Bataclan is probably exactly the sort of situation where it could have made a difference- people scattered through the building, a sustained attack with a limited number of attackers
and a busy, pitch black room with lots of muzzle flashes. The terrorists could probably have walked in, fired a few rounds then went to the pub for a while as the crowd did most of the work for them
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Arming the public is the most simplistic and ill thought out knee jerk proposal ever. The really obvious points have already been made but it is worth considering that if we give the right to have hold and carry guns to the public then that portion of the public who are religious nutters of any persuasion will be wandering around with ready access to lethal distance effect weapons.
Things like Paris take time and logistics to prepare much of which is acquiring the firepower creating a large pool of less effective but easily available guns and ammunition would make terrorism easier not harder.
legend - Memberand a busy, pitch black room with lots of muzzle flashes. The terrorists could probably have walked in, fired a few rounds then went to the pub for a while as the crowd did most of the work for them
Oh, don't misunderstand, I'm not saying it's a good idea! I just think, "It would have made no difference" is too simple, it's maybe better to accept, maybe it could, better or worse, but then just get past that point entirely and say it doesn't really matter. Put the argument on a less shaky peg. Because otherwise you get people going away thinking "but it COULD have made a difference" and undermining the real point.
(Likewise- house lights went up fast. So people can see that post and go "but it wasn't dark" and niggle at some irrelevant detail and miss the more important stuff, and it all goes a bit chewbacca defence)
Well best of luck to you if/when such attacks happen again and you have nothing to hand to defend yourselves with.
There were 4(?) gunmen. Following the Stalin mantra that "numbers have a quality of their own". Once the magazine is empty they are un-armed and at that point the numbers game changes and they are very vulnerable. See also flight 93 in Pennsylvania.
Note there have been few if any recorded hijackings since then as the dynamics have changed.
What. The. ****?
Take a look at yourselves, some of you.
You might need to narrow that down a bit chakaping, one way or the other.