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On a related note about electric / self driving vehicles, I can actually see a point where they're creating more problems than they're solving.
At the moment, there's at least some acknowledgement some of the time that driving is bad in terms of pollution and, just maybe, some people will occasionally walk / cycle / use public transport instead as their inner environmentalist kicks in. I can see the point where the mental attitude changes to "oh it's an EV, I can drive wherever I want cos it's non-polluting / carbon neutral" and we then end up back in absolute gridlock, trying to build more roads.
I've been a believer for a while that once you hit a certain age you should have to have a new driving test. Not as comprehensive as the first but something to gauge reaction times etc. This should then continue every say 5 years and when you hit borderline you start to be warned about future tests which will declare you unfit to drive and perhaps then the time gets shortened. Once you fail the test you are declared unfit to drive. I think it would prevent a lot of accidents and would save the awkward conversations with parents about the state of their driving. I personally dread having to tell my dad that I don't think he should drive any more but once the time comes I'll definitely voice my concerns. However, I know a lot of people don't have that conversation when they should for fear of repercussions but they already know they shouldnt be on the road.
I have this with my parents. I have told them they shouldn't be driving in their mid / late 80s. eyesight and reactions just not good enough Very angry reaction from them. I haven't got in a car with them for 5 years but they have not yet worked this out.
Should over 70’s be required to have a camera in their car?
For driving, yes; dogging, no.
It's got nothing to do with being old. The woman who pulled out in front of me and got my bumper in her door looked about 22 ish.
An acceptable manouver and speed on an empty dry road would be horrendously innapropriate in the rain outside a school.
As for black boxes - they don't automatically dob you in if you accelerate hard. They (the current ones) build a profile of the way you drive consistently, based AFAIK on acceleration and sudden braking and things like that. They aren't there to penalise specific incidents like cameras are.
Cameras – no
Black Boxes – no
More autonomous control – no
More Ruddy Touch Screen controls – no
More testing of over 70s – yes. Doesn’t need to be a full test, just a basic competency test.
Cos it's all the oldies' fault, of course it is!
If your mum needs a taxi to get to hospital, you should have thought of that sooner.
But then your perfectly innocent mother suffers from her son's idiocy. Hardly fair is it?
I plan to stop driving at 70, my Jetpack order should have arrived by then.
I think it would prevent a lot of accidents
Any statistics to back that up?
(I vaguely recall but can't be arsed googling that going from insurance data, 83 is the age when risk levels return to those of teenage drivers.)
Two years ago one of my grandparents friends was having a test drive of a new Mercedes of some sort. At best I would describe her as an appalling driver.....anyway during said test drive, she wanted to pop to her house to make sure that it would fit in her garage. Several minutes later a panic involving confusion over where reverse was ensued....she went straight through the garage and into her living room!!!
....and she ended up with an Audi instead 😂
true but congestion is a separate issue to pollution. There is a finite amount of space for roads yet ever more cars/drivers. At some point people will have to realise that they have to make fewer journeys by driving, it’s as simple as that. Probably when they reach the tipping point that driving is no longer the most convenient or cost-effective solution. Yet you get people sitting in traffic jams every day, raging about it, who never twig that THEY are the problem 🤣At the moment, there’s at least some acknowledgement some of the time that driving is bad in terms of pollution and, just maybe, some people will occasionally walk / cycle / use public transport instead as their inner environmentalist kicks in. I can see the point where the mental attitude changes to “oh it’s an EV, I can drive wherever I want cos it’s non-polluting / carbon neutral” and we then end up back in absolute gridlock, trying to build more roads.
Noted.
Thank you.
I strongly believe that everyone should have to retake their driving test every 10 years.
+1
I also think in-built camera's are on the way for all cars, and within 10-15 years it will be unusual/old car not to. Let's not limit it to over 70's.
I think last time we were discussing black boxes on here it was wrightyson (did he get banned?) complaining that he went out in his teenager daughter's car to improve her black box score and nearly ended up in an accident caused by his driving style eliciting some road rage in another driver which he then responded to...
I also think in-built camera’s are on the way for all cars, and within 10-15 years it will be unusual/old car not to.
I was looking the other day, and a lot of cars do have cameras as part of the parking sensors, or "collision avoidance" systems that apply the brakes before you hit something. Whether they record or not is a different matter I suppose.
I think last time we were discussing black boxes on here it was wrightyson (did he get banned?) complaining that he went out in his teenager daughter’s car to improve her black box score and nearly ended up in an accident caused by his driving style eliciting some road rage in another driver which he then responded to…
Anecdotally friends have the opposite problems. They 'borrow' the 2nd/3rd car that's insured in their kid name with a blackbox, and come back to angry offspring who've just been informed by the insurance that the renewal just went up by £100+ due to all the habitual speeding!
There's no way my 77 year old dad would be racing at near 80mph to get past a vehicle because the dual carriageway is ending just because he wants to get home five minutes earlier. I know which car I'd rather be in. Funny that there's always an excuse for law breakers when it comes to speeding. That's how people are killed. I'd rather be in the car doing 40mph where the driver is half a second behind on his/her reaction time that the car where the super-alert driver with zero reaction delay is doing 80mph...
(I vaguely recall but can’t be arsed googling that going from insurance data, 83 is the age when risk levels return to those of teenage drivers.)
Don't you come here with your new fangled data based approach. Only people over 70 are a danger because someone over 70 drove into me, simple as that.
There’s no way my 77 year old dad would be racing at near 80mph to get past a vehicle because the dual carriageway is ending
A dual carriageway's national speed limit is 70 and an indicated 80mph is probably about 72-74 in reality. It is still exceeding the limit of course but I'd respectfully suggest that "racing" is perhaps a bit hyperbolic.
I’d rather be in the car doing 40mph
On a dual carriageway with everyone around you doing 70? That's insanely dangerous.
Over 70's may not have as many high speed accidents but certainly have different and just as dangerous incidents. Not often you hear about younger drivers getting "pedal confusion" or crashing through walls and bollards from a standstill.
I agree with Perchy though, dashcams definitely make you consider your own driving a lot more carefully.
On a dual carriageway with everyone around you doing 70? That’s insanely dangerous.
Careful, everyone knows those people don't exist and are just a figment of the Driving God's imagination. (Except the one poster who tried to argue it was only a 20mph speed differential between them and the lorries).
How many of you are actively working towards not driving as you age?
I’m a strong believer that all these systems make people lazy and less aware of what they are doing.
My Co car has a tracker, speeding sends an alert to our logistics team, speeding is also considered as gross misconduct by my employer, certainly doesn't make me lazy or less aware of what I am doing 🤔
I'm all for cameras & black boxes being built into cars at the factory even if they are only used to provide evidence for prosecution in event of an rtc.
(I vaguely recall but can’t be arsed googling that going from insurance data, 83 is the age when risk levels return to those of teenage drivers.)
My Mum is 82 and lives next door.
Her insurance has been more than mine for a few years now, initially when she got her new car (her Toyota Aygo 1.0 vs my BMW 435d coupe). Both cars were new, with mine at over 4x the cost of hers.
I reckon by next year hers will cost more than my youngest (22 and Fiesta 2.0ST).
My Co car has a tracker, speeding sends an alert to our logistics team, speeding is also considered as gross misconduct by my employer, certainly doesn’t make me lazy or less aware of what I am doing 🤔
Reason #15 to lose the company car.
How many of you are actively working towards not driving as you age
That's a very good question and probably more relevant. How do you ensure you maintain mobility and independence as you get older without compromising the safety of yourself and others you come into contact with?
Sell the car and use a bus or a taxi
How many of you are actively working towards not driving as you age?
me
I hardly drive at all and don't own a car. Occasional car hires. Well over a year since I drove a car.
The only reason I might buy one is if it becomes necessary to visit my aging parents more often / at short notice
Sell the car and use a bus or a taxi
Brilliant, and if you live on the southwest coast of Scotland in a decent sized town where a bus takes about 40 minutes to get you 15 miles up or down the road to the nearest bank (because they've all shut), the trains get cancelled every time there is a high wind and a taxi costs about £20 each way what then?
I don't think you've really considered the question.
£20 taxi fare. You get about 200 of them for the cost of owning a car depending on the car.
Try telling your dad at 87 he’s no getting to drive again caused a big stooshie
I'm not sure what your point is? That we shouldn't stop old people driving because they won't like it?
Both of my parents were driving long after they were in any way safe through dementia but there is really no process for stopping people at present - we (their children) basically had to deal with the massive fallout from taking their keys away. Doctors unhelpful (because they don't want the fall out either)
There really does need to be regular reassessments of ability through a drivers life (and for that matter regular theory retests to give some incentive for people to keep up with any changes in the Highway Code). Currently loads of 'Low Traffic Neighbourhood' schemes in London with 'flying motorbike' No Motor Vehicles signs which, supposedly, 40% of drivers don't understand. What other signs or road rules are they unsure of?
I'd go with a regular 'mental attitude assessment' as well as there's a lot of people out there with anger issues who shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.
Makes perfect sense that at age 69 years and 364 days you are a perfectly safe driver, one day later you're a blind loonatic with no driving skills whatsoever.
In my experience wives are a bloody menace, how many years does it take to understand the concept of gears, it's more akin to stirring porridge tbh.
<bernard manning>
In my experience wives are a bloody menace, how many years does it take to understand the concept of gears, it’s more akin to stirring porridge tbh.
</manning mode>
worried this might be a trap
Not often you hear about younger drivers getting “pedal confusion” or crashing through walls and bollards from a standstill.
A problem thats only going to get worse when automatics (and electric vehicles, obvs) become the norm.
£20 taxi fare. You get about 200 of them for the cost of owning a car depending on the car.
Excellent, that's 100 return trips. What then?
A problem thats only going to get worse when automatics (and electric vehicles, obvs) become the norm.
Not sure why, the accelerator and brake pedals are still in the same places. Higher torque on the other hand...
"Reason #15 to lose the company car"
This is on the cards but for many other reasons.
Top priority for our next house move will be somewhere we won't need a car, so medium sized town where we can walk most places. Had my aged father live with us for the last 7yrs of his life and seeing my in laws dissappear into dementia with nothing within walking distance for them, has been a good life lesson I can tell you.
Edit - quote thingy gone funny
Yup - my folks moved to where they can walk to the shops and train station
squirrelking - twice weekly trips not enough?
Both of my parents were driving long after they were in any way safe through dementia but there is really no process for stopping people at present – we (their children) basically had to deal with the massive fallout from taking their keys away. Doctors unhelpful (because they don’t want the fall out either)
I've mentioned it before on similar threads but my grandfather was in a similar situation - eventually the thing that forced him to give up the car was the astronomical cost of insurance from the numerous prangs, dents and bumps he'd had. Walls, cars, trees, kerbs - you name it, he'd hit it, usually only very slowly.
His neighbour was constantly on it him to sell the car and use the money for taxis, he offered to drive him to the shops and so on but it all fell on (almost literally) deaf ears. He always was incredibly stubborn and he had that "didn't want to be a burden" attitude. The fact that he WAS a burden through constantly ending up dealing with insurance companies and garages didn't really seem to occur to him.
I recently had the 'conversation' with my dad about driving. He had already sold his car 3 years ago as they didn't need 2 cars but he was occasionally driving my mum's one. It wasn't until he admitted he didn't understand the stop-start system that other things came out too, like no night vision and pootling along at 30-40 on dead straight NSL roads. He used to be a very confident and safe driver, used to race classic cars, happily 'making progress' when he was in the mood and realising that he had lost this skill was really affecting him. Half the battle was getting him to admit his skills were getting worse but he now accepts that his driving days are gone. He now gets his kicks powersliding his mobility scooter!
I am surprised that cameras have not become more prevalent.
I bought one several years ago when I started driving for BCA, but I was continually being moaned at by my team leader/driver for spending time setting it up, so I stopped using it. In my own car, an Octavia, it was a nuisance, because the 12v socket was behind the handbrake between the front seats, so the cable not only wouldn’t reach, it would have interfered with changing gear and driving in general.
With my Ecosport, the 12v aux socket is in front of the shift, and it’s a semi-auto, so I’ve got the camera set up behind the mirror out of the way, although the cable is unsightly, it’s not an issue.
I was looking the other day, and a lot of cars do have cameras as part of the parking sensors, or “collision avoidance” systems that apply the brakes before you hit something. Whether they record or not is a different matter I suppose.
No, they don’t. The cameras are part of a sensor array usually in the black box-like structure behind the rear-view mirror - if you look from the outside you can see the lenses, from one up to four. If your screen needs replacing, then it takes at least a couple of hours due to the system needing recalibration. If I need to take a car to Autoglass in Bristol, that’s nearly five hours away from work. 😁
How many of you are actively working towards not driving as you age
Well, at 66 I’m not, my job involves well over fifty vehicle movements a day, including brand new, unregistered cars, my driving has to be of a high standard, a dim view would be taken if I put a big scrape down the side of a new Ford Puma due to be picked up for a driving school instructor the following day!
squirrelking – twice weekly trips not enough?
I dunno, do you plan on leaving your house and accessing amenities more than twice a week?
Flipside is moving away from your friends and family.
I'm not arguing FOR the car rather that public transport, generally anywhere other than Edinburgh, is an utter disaster. You are forcing people to make hard choices when surely the answer is better mobility (which is in turn better for everyone). See also the mass closure of banks and other essential services that makes the life of anyone who doesn't drive extremely difficult. I thought you of all people would understand that.
With my Ecosport, the 12v aux socket is in front of the shift, and it’s a semi-auto, so I’ve got the camera set up behind the mirror out of the way, although the cable is unsightly, it’s not an issue.
Hard wiring into the fuse box usually doesn't take more than a forum check for the right fuse to piggy back (otherwise it's fuse bingo if you want passive operation) and the A pillar trim piece removing.
First thing,
For driving, yes; dogging, no.
Got unfortunately skipped over without the due recognition.
Secondly, not impressed with to comments about the driving standards of white van man. Over 15 years since I had my one set of speeding points TJ!
Yours, white van man.
If your mum needs a taxi to get to hospital, you should have thought of that sooner.
But then your perfectly innocent mother suffers from her son’s idiocy. Hardly fair is it?
Shall we not lock him up for murder either? I genuinely don't care what inconvenience it may cause his mother. The only person who should care about that is the idiot son.
Excellent, that’s 100 return trips. What then?
If youre making twice weekly trips to the bank then I suggest a financial adviser and possibly chauffeur?
Im young(ish) and skint and havent been in a bank in months, and doubt Ive ever driven to it as the parking is a PITA 🤣
an indicated 80mph is probably about 72-74 in reality
What does this mean?
Yeah, cool story bro.
Meanwhile anyone who didn't grow up with computers and Internet banking is finding this a real issue.
And I wasn't talking about twiceweekly to the bank, I just mean anywhere offering services other than the town you inhabit. Fine in Edinburgh, less so in Ayrshire where a hospital appointment could easily be over an hour and several buses away.
I don't understand why cars don't have built in dashcams in the UK. Most modern cars with a decent level of tech already have a camera for lane assist and/or identifying speed limit signs. Only thing I can think is that other countries don't allow dashcams.
Anyway my 14 plate Octavia already knows what the speed limit is from GPS and the aforementioned camera. I can set a speed limit and to go above that I need to floor the accelerator. So it would seem a piece of piss to link the two and avoid accidental speeding.
It has sensors to set the airbags off in the event of an accident or turn on the hazard lights if I brake sharply, plus I think it applies the brakes automatically if I'm involved in an accident. So again link these up and automatically archive the preceding 5 minutes of footage if there's an incident.
I'm also sure it would be easy to record various parameters in a black box e.g. speed, accelerator input, braking input and steering angle. I'm sure it knows these already so just need to add some storage.
All of that is eminently achievable now, no need to wait for self driving cars.
Edit: Also well up for mandatory retest every 5 years. Where else would you be able to pass a test to control a 2 tonne death machine and not have regular reassessment?
Makes perfect sense that at age 69 years and 364 days you are a perfectly safe driver, one day later you’re a blind loonatic with no driving skills whatsoever.
You could apply that logic to anything though. At 16 years 364 days you're unsafe to start driving, at 17 you're magically golden. Sex at 15 years 364 days? Drinking, age-limited media, smoking... or yknow, doing 61mph on a single carriageway.
One size fits all solutions aren't ideal but we don't yet have anything better.
an indicated 80mph is probably about 72-74 in reality
What does this mean?
It's illegal for a speedometer to under-read but acceptable to overread by up to 10% + 10kph. It is (historically at least) impossible to make them 100% accurate not least because of external variations like tyre pressures so speedos typically overread by several percent. If your speedo says 70 you're likely doing closer to 65mph.
This is becoming less true with more modern technology and GPS, but there's every chance you're driving slower than you think you are. Or turning that around, if you get caught for breaking the speed limit your car was telling you that you were going even faster than the speed you actually got pinged at.
in Ayrshire where a hospital appointment could easily be over an hour and several buses away.
Which is what hospital transport is for!
You really are one of those people who refuse to see any alternative to driving cars. Are you really suggesting the people who are unfit to drive because of declining facilities in old age should be allowed to because they live in a rural location?
This is becoming less true with more modern technology and GPS
So your 80mph could be 80mph?
Or turning that around, if you get caught for breaking the speed limit your car was telling you that you were going even faster than the speed you actually got pinged at.
I attended a speeding course once, about 30 folk in the room (most middle-age BTW).
First session was to explain why you were speeding, he went to each/every one of us. The 30 folk before me all had an excuse of why they didn't realise they were speeding.
He got to me. My answer, "of course I knew I was speeding, I'd set my cruise control to 80".
If you don't know you're speeding, you've a serious driving problem and probably shouldn't be on the road in the first place.
IMO speed limits have predominately been set too high on highly-urban roads and too low elsewhere. They've just introduced 20 limits right across the Borders towns where I live, no problem by me. But can we get the limit reduced for the singletrack road that goes through our 'hamlet', nope. It's a 60/NSL.
I'll get flamed here, but don't care.
In my eyes the NSL isn't the National Speed Limit but the No Speed Limit - drive to the road, traffic and conditions. One day it could be 80, the next day 40 and quite frankly for some folk in certain conditions they just shouldn't be out at all (snow for example).
You really are one of those people who refuse to see any alternative to driving cars. Are you really suggesting the people who are unfit to drive because of declining facilities in old age should be allowed to because they live in a rural location?
FFS TJ read what I actually wrote and not what you imagined I wrote. I'll quote it to make it easy:
I’m not arguing FOR the car rather that public transport, generally anywhere other than Edinburgh, is an utter disaster. You are forcing people to make hard choices when surely the answer is better mobility (which is in turn better for everyone). See also the mass closure of banks and other essential services that makes the life of anyone who doesn’t drive extremely difficult.
You seem to be the one suggesting everyone should move to a city where they can easily access ALL amenities rather than fixing the completely broken public transport system outside of the Lothian Council area. To make it clear, again, I am not arguing that people (of any age) should be driving everywhere, rather they shouldn't feel forced to!
And FWIW I am not talking about anywhere rural, this is an easy example of Largs to Kilmarnock (the college, Crosshouse hospital or wherever) that people who don't drive are just expected to get to through a combination of one bus or train an hour to Kilwinning and then either another bus or two trains to Kilmarnock. And that's the bus that goes round every scheme. Local banks are shutting but it's okay because the nearest one is only 20 minutes away in Saltcoats or Greenock. If you drive. And the road or line is open in winter. This is the reality for anyone outside of your extremely lucky/privileged bubble so get your head out your arse and try to see things from another perspective.
That's ageist!
If anything there should be a reactions test, eyesight test for all drivers every 5 years.
I'd ban all driving under the age of 25 based on my vehicle history and that of my mates.
Oh, and don't let mothers drive their little darlings to school. I see some terrifying driving near our local school in the mornings - or maybe they're just hoping for some extempore postnatal family planning.
Even better, just lower speed limits which reduces the consequences.
Not sure if it's been mentioned or not (edit - jeffi suggests it) but I recall reading that among the next draft of international "enhancements" to cars will be black box style recorders that log the last ten minutes of speed, acceleration, etc. In the event of an accident or at the user's discretion that last ten minutes is saved for future analysis. So no more "I was driving along at a steady 30mph" when the recorder shows you were doing 50.
I'd also like to see tailgating alarms in vehicles - the number of drivers who think 2 seconds is a car's length at 70mph is astonishing.
You really are one of those people who refuse to see any alternative to driving cars. Are you really suggesting the people who are unfit to drive because of declining facilities in old age should be allowed to because they live in a rural location?
Maybe they are 75 and getting pressure to stop driving from their kids 🙂
The question was who is planning to be able to live without a car and my (correct) answer is to use buses and taxis. Yes there will edge cases where someone lives in the middle of nowhere but part of the plan towards old age may be to not end up living in the middle of nowhere miles away from the services (i.e. hospitals and doctors) that you are more likely to need.
The question was who is planning to be able to live without a car and my (correct) answer is to use buses and taxis. Yes there will edge cases where someone lives in the middle of nowhere but part of the plan towards old age may be to not end up living in the middle of nowhere miles away from the services (i.e. hospitals and doctors) that you are more likely to need.
I'm 37 thanks.
And as I explained this is not an "edge case", this is the reality for a significant amount of the population who live outside of cities or suburban lines with good public transport links. The Clyde coast is very much not the "middle of nowhere", there are trains and buses but the service provision is dire. Public transport absolutely IS the answer but not in its current state.
Its also extremely presumptuous that you think everyone approaching retirement has the financial resources and social connections to just move from somewhere they may be perfectly happy with. I know I enjoy shitting on boomers but I'm also not so stupid as to think they are all sleeping on mattresses stuffed with cash. My father in law is coming up on 70, still working because he has to and living in a flat worth £25k on a good day in the middle of Cumbernauld. His car is literally the only thing keeping him going as without it he can't work or easily get to where he needs to be.
@kerley - there was a documentary series many years ago about a rural doctor's practice and they had to sign off that an elderly farmer who lived alone was fit to drive. The doctor stated that he probably *wasn't* but that there was no public transport within miles of his house so if he couldn't drive he'd be housebound.
We live rurally, not far from the nearest village and as it happens only 8km from the area's general hospital. Our neighbours moved last year as they were in their 70s and felt they needed to be closer to services, they weren't/aren't decrepit but age definitely figured in their decision.
astronomical cost of insurance from the numerous prangs, dents and bumps he’d had. Walls, cars, trees, kerbs
Ah. That assumes they needed to be repaired - by the time we managed to prevent my mother from driving her car had all for corners dented and scrapes on nearly every panel. That doesn't really matter but you can be sure that most of those were likely to have been scrapes and dents on other peoples cars in supermarket car parks.