[Closed] Should my recently graduated son expect to work 55 hpw for £17500 pa?

Some people here live in cloud cuckoo land.

There are loads of graduates these days who are even struggling to find employment, let alone a 'graduate' job. They are either too qualified, not experienced enough etc.

£17,500 is bad if you have 4 £25k jobs lined up, if you dont its good.

Its better to be in work and looking, than sat on the doll.

I do find it odd that people are saying £17.5k is crap for 55hours work. Junior doctors work much longer hours 80 + and come out on less than the minimum wage... but of course thats different isnt it?

IMO take the job unless others interviewed and offered.

You do what you need to do to get a job and career. In any case, 50 - 60 hours per week strikes me as pretty standard for an office-based job. He'll get paid much better after he's proven himself.

You always have to weigh up the long term opportunities. I graduated in '91 and my first job paid <£5K pa when I could have earned around £18K pa at a large corporate. Why did I chose the £5K job then? Because it led directly to the career path I wanted and the money came later. In short grad starting salaries are pretty meaningless when you look beyond the first couple of years.

My advice is to pick the job you really want, with the career prospects that you aspire to and don't worry about the starting salary at all. In many cases the most attractive grad jobs have the most competition and possibly lowest starting salaries. Supply and demand.

In any case, 50 - 60 hours per week strikes me as pretty standard for an office-based job

glad I don't live in your world...

Junior doctors work much longer hours 80 + and come out on less than the minimum wage... but of course thats different isnt it?

No, that's similarly appalling.

Jeez, if my boss get 25 out of me he's done well.

and for one I really do not want to be seen by a doctor on the end of an 80hr week.

No, that's similarly appalling.

I'm pretty sure - based on my OH and loads of my friends currently being junior doctors - that it's not even close to true. Doctors receive pay according to their banding for hours worked outside of their contracted 40hpw - they also don't work 80+ hour weeks on average.

edit: obviously this only reflects on her and her colleagues in the north east - it may be different in some deaneries/hospitals I guess.

I was at one of the big consultancies a couple of weeks ago discussing their grad programmes. They take on the brightest, and expect them to be an unpaid intern during the training programme (they cover travel expenses)

The developers have around £20k spent on training them during the 5 months they are an intern. On placement with the client they earn £24k with £1.5k 6 monthly increments. They might not get placed though. I spoke with the grads and they all thought it was a good deal, with the potential opportunities it could lead to.

5 months with no salary, and having to pass multiple tests and assignments to potentially get a £24k job sounds pretty harsh to me.

basically less than minimum wage, comes out at £6.12 ph over 52 weeks.

£6.62 if you factor in 4 weeks non paid holiday. so just meeting min wage. (£6.50 for 21yo+)

Unfortunately, although you will have the correct training, you won't have experience to put that training to good use for a year or so. even within each individual company,

If you have qualifications they want experience, if you have experience they want qualifications, and if you have both then you're overqualified. Can't bloody win.

5 months with no salary, and having to pass multiple tests and assignments to potentially get a £24k job sounds pretty harsh to me.

It does sound harsh, but what are they earning 5 or 10 years down the line? I don't know the answer in this case, but that's what really matters.

why would you factor in 4 weeks non paid holiday to a minimum wage calculation ?

pro rata - for 55hours i would have been earning more than 17.5k as a bike mechanic - id have been happier to continue doing that than work for enterprise.

trail_rat - Member
why would you factor in 4 weeks non paid holiday to a minimum wage calculation ?

As for the OP,

My first IT job after Uni was working in tech support hell for the princely salary of £7,500. Apparently, I was one of the highest paid new starters they'd ever had.

£17k for a graduate role sounds pretty good to me, but 55 hours a week is a bit rich. Questions I'd be asking are 'what else do you get for that' - eg, is there a guaranteed rise / promotion after a period of time, or other benefits? And, what's the commute like, is it five minutes away or a three hour round trip? Eleven hours a day in work, plus lunch, plus travel, means you might be away from home for fourteen hours each day; the novelty of that will wear off [i]really [/i]fast.

Still, as others have said, the best way to get a good job is to already have a poor one. Employers need to up their game to win you over, rather than assume you'll take any old rubbish as it's better than signing on.

If you have qualifications they want experience, if you have experience they want qualifications, and if you have both then you're overqualified. Can't bloody win.

Haha. This rings true.

However I've found it very hard to locate good graduates with real talent in my line of work, despite the supposed glut of them.

And it's even harder to hang onto them as freelancers because they naturally prefer a bit of job security and the possibility of career progression.

you would be making the assumption that what they are doing is legal, it's probably not and they are just assuming that most people won't question it and as there is no hourly rate not clock what a low rate they are on.

and for one I really do not want to be seen by a doctor on the end of an 80hr week.

Yeah best to go on a Monday.

Saying it's easier to find a job when you're in a job might be true, but if it's a completely unrelated, poor-quality job it can reflect badly on you to some employers. In my industry who or what companies you've got on your CV is pretty important to a lot of the decent employers - there's a degree of snobbishness involved which I hate but unfortunately it's how it is.

I still think he'd be better off doing some work experience or temping in a few different businesses to work out where his interest lies, then really targeting that sector.

On the one hand £17.5k is better than dole money and [b]it's easier to find a job when you've already got one.[/b]

It all depends on the prospects - I would pretty much expect that in the main accounting firms - but the potential is huge.

In the media world you could be expected to be a runner for less than that (or free) until you prove yourself.

its a dog eat dog world and a degree helps a lot but doesn't mean £40k out the door.

there's a degree of snobbishness involved which I hate but unfortunately it's how it is.

Doesn't sound like he's going to be looking for jobs in any elitist places anytime soon though.

a degree helps a lot but doesn't mean £40k out the door.

It never did really, but you can earn a lot more than £40K down the line. Also best not to forget that job satisfaction and pay are not related as closely as some people think.

But I have to say that working for a car leasing company doesn't sound all that compelling to me!

Hey, I started out mopping the floor just like you guys. But now... now I'm washing lettuce. Soon I'll be on fries; then the grill. And pretty soon, I'll make assistant manager, and that's when the big bucks start rolling in.

Sorry, couldn't help thinking of this gem.

f it's a completely unrelated, poor-quality job it can reflect badly on you to some employers.

That's still a win-win situation though, because you almost certainly want to avoid working for judgemental arseholes.

What looks better, that a candidate went and got a stop-gap job whilst searching for a career, or that they sat at home all day watching porn and eating Wotsits?

What looks better, that a candidate went and got a stop-gap job whilst searching for a career, or that they sat at home all day watching porn and eating Wotsits?

Perfect training for a career in IT surely?

Saying it's easier to find a job when you're in a job might be true, but if it's a completely unrelated, poor-quality job it can reflect badly on you to some employers. In my industry who or what companies you've got on your CV is pretty important to a lot of the decent employers - there's a degree of snobbishness involved which I hate but unfortunately it's how it is.

But the OPs son doesn't even know what career he wants. So he has to make a start somewhere.

I'd agree there's little point taking a horticulture job if you want to be an engineer.

Yeah, not arguing with that.
Stop-gap job > sitting at home.
But also:
Relevant work experience > soul-destroying stop-gap job.

And there's nothing to say he won't be aiming at higher-end companies at some point - his degree and uni wouldn't hold him back.

For those saying that it's easier to find a job when you've got one, there is another side to this. I had pretty much decided I didn't want to do what I do. However when trying to switch career path no one was interested in me. I had a job, but it hadn't trained me in what they did and so they only had my degree to go on. So I had no experience. In this day and age where people of my age are specialising at degree level employers want precisely what they're after and don't seem flexible.

He would be better off not taking anything and finding what he actually wants to do at a wage he's willing to take.

If he's got a 2:1 from a mediocre university, then Kantaar would be a much better company to apply for. 22k a year, a lot of the jobs are in London though and most days you will be working a normal 9-5.

My wife did a one year internship with them as she panicked when interviewing for the big high paying city companies, however, she got sent on a 6 week international secondment to train employees in an overseas office. The company has put her in good shape to find a high paying job when you combine the level of responsibility they gave her, with her first, her thesis which is probably got to get published and her awards for academic performance.

Time to consult an expert!...

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Has anyone actually said what the job is yet?

My thoughts:

- Could well be £17.5k + commission if it's some kind of sales led role, so may well pay very well if he performs

- Likely to be client/customer facing - this is great experience. Too many grads/young employees now have very poor social/client facing skills. Great experience for the future if nothing else

- It's buyer's market at the moment. Employers can afford to be picky, less so employees. As has been said, it's better to be in work than not.

However when trying to switch career path no one was interested in me. I had a job, but it hadn't trained me in what they did and so they only had my degree to go on. So I had no experience. In this day and age where people of my age are specialising at degree level employers want precisely what they're after and don't seem flexible

No, but neither does sitting in a job that is not relevant to what you want to do and pays peanuts for mad hours.

Also as a graduate job choose time make a choice, how many other things has he got in the pipeline?

Peanuts can be spent.

Experience working is useful experience. Gaps on CVs have to be explained too.

when i graduated - life didnt really change....

i carried on working doing what i always did - gardening / bike mechanic and on weekends i was a barman.

i continued doing that while applying till a job that interested me offered me a position - then i moved to near that job..

there was absolutely no time to be sitting on a sofa.

If you have qualifications they want experience, if you have experience they want qualifications, and if you have both then you're overqualified. Can't bloody win.

This, a university that I worked out had a ridiculous amount of responsibility for someone on pay grade scale. I was doing research, if something went wrong I could have dicked up a 50-100k experiment, at the same I was doing all the basic technical/housekeeping duties for the senior technician who was too busy doing a part time PHd. All for 17k a year. They had four interviewees turn up for that job, I beat a Cambridge graduate to get it. Now they have upped the requirements for the job even further - yet they will probably be wondering why no one will turn up for the interview.

Human resources are the cause of it, they often want the moon on a stick.

But I have to say that working for a car leasing company doesn't sound all that compelling to me!

Multinational company so it could be anything though, marketing, finance, HR etc...

Stop gap jobs are ok, so long as you have enough time to actually job hunt.

In my experience, job hunting was full time. There was often 2, sometimes 3 separate interviews, preparation or interview questions (e.g. writing a program to solve the travelling salesman problem) that needed to be done in advance, and thats on top of the job seraching and cover letters and fielding never ending phone calls from over-friendly recruitment agents etc..

Even assuming you get stuff done outside of the 55 hours a week working, are they really going to let you have lots of days off for interviews?

It sounds like the company is using people for cheap labour. I suspect there's a high turnover.

trail_rat - Member

pro rata - for 55hours i would have been earning more than 17.5k as a bike mechanic - id have been happier to continue doing that than work for enterprise.

They could do with you back...

@ fionap. What line of work are you in if you don't mind me asking, just sounds like you have some relevant comments about internship which he is more than happy to do. My email is in profile if you wouldn't mind dropping me a line. Me and Mrs Lad have been in the same jobs for 20 years so we have a lack of awareness about this subject

If you have qualifications they want experience, if you have experience they want qualifications, and if you have both then you're overqualified. Can't bloody win.

This is because of recruitment agencies. I have the same issue, I have a lot of experience, and I'm very good at what I do. I can do the same job as a graduate easily, but would probably expect less pay. So a good investment for any company, and I've found companies doing their own recruitment have always given me a chance.

But the recruitment agents say no. No degree, no consideration for the position.

mudshark - Member

Gaps on CVs have to be explained too.

They do but for a fresh graduate, "I was looking for the right job, which this particular job is" should always be nonprejudicial and can be beneficial- you're showing a particular interest rather than just taking what's available. Employers that treats a short gap in a CV after uni as a problem, are almost certainly going to be dicks in the longer run too.

There's a school of thought- I don't have an informed opinion on this- that as a graduate your first job in a career path is the most important one. Various reasons- you get typecast, potential employers look at what you're doing now and may assume that's what you're fit for. So you might take a starter role but then the next person says "Hmm, I see your experience is as a lab assistant even though you're a qualified teacher, you're an underachiever" or something and the next thing you know you get offered more lab assistant roles. Perceived success breeds success. I know it happens, it happened to me- but whether it's widespread I don't know.

But personally, if I was a fresh grad right now I'd be looking for a job I really wanted, unless I had no real choice.

I'd take bets on it being Enterprise, American company expecting huge amounts of time for bugger all pay.

Hmm, I see your experience is as a [s]lab assistant[/s] qualifieed teacher even though you're a [s]qualified teacher[/s] qualified lab assistant, you're an underachiever

Sod off, you've got it all wrong.

Can't be arsed reading all that... No, he should expect to go in on £100k p/a with zero experience and 'just' his degree as new grads have so much to offer.... AFAIK, accepting an offer is not mandatory so he should keep looking if this one is too demeaning.

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but he can always hold out for whatever you/he considers more appropriate or maybe get zero from an internship instead...

I turned down three 'graduate' jobs out of Uni (all on more than the OP's son's been offered!), didn't start until February, after graduating in the summer, never been an issue and set me up right. Can't see a post-Uni CV gap would ever be a problem.

[url= https://dupontimpl.taleo.net/careersection/gbl2emea/jobdetail.ftl?lang=en&job=343843&src=JB-10421 ]The applicants for this job will be paid considerably less than the guys currently doing it(retiring)by approx £7-10k !!!! The job has not been represented accurately in this advert imo(and colleagues)[/url]
The trades apprentices are also being offered contracts which are way below the old trades remuneration. There would seem to be and this is being proven by Gov tax revenue figures to lower the UK wage bill.
To obtain the old rates of pay kids are being made to jump through hoops or maybe good old fashioned "work harder" rather than listening to their parents who tell them they "shouldn't be working those hours for that kind of money". I'm afraid those days have gone 💡

I know the hours my kids have and are working, much the same as I did when I was their age, both in good professional(Teaching/engineering)jobs.

...as a graduate your first job in a career path is the most important one. Various reasons- you get typecast, potential employers look at what you're doing now and may assume that's what you're fit for

Well I agree but I have assumed that the OP's son hasn't just applied for anything at random and that the job might be relevant to his career - just that the hours/pay ain't great.

Tell him not to bother with Enterprise, it's not a real grad scheme, more of a "trainee" scheme. I was offered a place many years ago but within 15 minutes of the start of the assessment centre I knew I didn't want to work there. Also know a couple of people who did work there and both left within 1-2 years.

Normally I'd be telling someone to take the job, and look for something else whilst doing it. Any job is better than no job... Right?

Well in the case of Enterprise, no... They are a comedy bunch of shysters that, to be honest, I'm surprised are still in business! Forget the hours and the pay situation for one moment... Take a moment to consider that in each of your current job roles, are you an asset or a resource? Anyone who has answered resource hates their job, simple as that. For any job to be worthwhile, no matter the pay or the hours, you need to be working for employers that consider you an asset.

Enterprise is not this company! Have known several friends end up on their "Grad scheme" and fortunately for them, just chalk it up to experience and move on. When I finished uni I joined a temping agency whilst I was looking for a full time role, and one evening I got the call "could you go and work for Enterprise tomorrow instead of the role you've been doing all week please, as they need some cover?". Having been told to turn up in my smartest suit (no, smart trousers and a jumper will not do, you HAVE to be in a full suit!) I turned up the next morning to be told that (surprise surprise) their graduate walked out yesterday hence they needed the cover. My job for the day would be (exactly as his had been) washing cars pretty much relentlessly from 8 til close, and lunch was to be eaten on the go. I was lucky though, one of the drivers called in sick that day so I actually had to make a couple of drop offs and pickups too!

Anyway... Suit almost ruined after one day cleaning cars, I politely told the agency to F off if they ever thought of asking me to work for those jokers again. I don't mind cleaning cars at all, would happily do it all day if paid, but to be told I had to wear my best suit to do so and the realisation that this was seen as a graduate role (even if I was only doing it for a day) was just too much of a pill to swallow.

Went back to driving delivery vans for the rest of that summer the following week, for better pay, less hours, and I got to wear what I liked! And I was fresh enough when I got home to spend a decent amount of time continuing my search for full time roles too...

The moral is that just about ANYTHING is better than working for Enterprise. Tell your lad to get a PT job stacking shelves in the local supermarket or similar until he finds his chosen career. He'd feel far more valued and part of a team!

Recent grad here: I work doing essentially what I call 'typing' in a cushty office for 35 hours a week for that.

There are better jobs, but they will all expect you to work for a pittance unless you get on a grad scheme with a big company.

I've gone through a temp agency, with the plan of being kept on, ask him to try that.

He doesn't have to take it.
maybe he has a few offers to weigh up right now?
I dont know
does he have to get a job to pay his rent food heating etc
or is he living with his parents and have the luxury to pick and choose what career to choose?

My stepson has a masters in business & economics (or something) & he's was recently on about the same as the OP's lad working for some company that dealt in company shares.
I say 'was' because he went to Crewe on Monday to start his train driver training with Freightliner.
45Kish when he's 'trained'
He always had asperations of working for Aston Martin or someone & making £££'s but as has been said, there's a lot of people with degrees out there.

As soon as I read your post, I clicked onto who the firm is. I believe they will pick you up if needed. They're mickey takers in my opinion - the wage is a good 2.5-12.5k below the going rate for a graduate scheme, and I suspect it isn't really a graduate job in the sense that going to one of the big 4 would be. I suspect it's more a way of them getting in keen young bods who will work their nuts off for a while. Everyone seems to expect north of 40 hours out of graduates, and my experience is that most employers expect you to do more hours than they say, so 55 hours being bandied about at interview stage would worry me.

Anyway, it really depends on where your son is. If he's at a Russell group uni with good A-Levels, then he's an ideal candidate for a FTSE 100 grad scheme. If he's got poorer A-Levels and he's going to find it a bit more difficult. He is applying about 10-6 months too late in the year for most of the bigger scheme.

If I were him, I'd go for it and decide if I wanted the job after. See it as interview and assessment centre experience. And if he isn't frightened of hard work, go for Aldi's grad scheme - when I was looking a few years ago it was famously hard work but £40k starting wage and quick career progression.

Cheers mboy, your post has just about put the last nail in a well and truly shut coffin, he won't be going to enterprise.
Ryder, one or two people have mentioned the temping approach (particularly a great email sent by fionap, very helpful), and I think he is going to look at that if the current round of grad applications are unsuccessful.
I find it a little sad really. 20 years ago if you got gcse 5a*,4a's and a b, AAB at A level and a good degree at a Russel group uni then the world was at your feet. Seems not so these days.

Tron, I was typing whilst you posted, he is Russell Group and decent a levels, but I think you are right that he has missed this years boat

I'd suggest he still goes to the interview, just for the practice at assessment centres.

There are quite a few firms that do a second round of intakes for the middle of the year, so there is a chance to get in for a March 15 or so start date.

To be honest, it's not the end of the world to not get straight into a grad job, and there are plenty of non-grad jobs which can quickly get you up to grad level if you're half decent.

http://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Enterprise-Rent-A-Car-Reviews-E2783.htm

Decathlon seem to recruiting like mad for these sorts of jobs at the moment.

Doesn't sound great if he has AAB and a decent (2:1) degree. My lot take grads on throughout the year for considerably more money (hours can be harsh tho). I'll drop you a mail.

I have worked as a chef for 24 years , most weeks i work between 65 and 75 hours ,some days are 8am till after midnight with out a sit down break and eating while working . I love it .i have travelled around the world for 3 years with a formula 1 team ,travelled round Europe 3 times with rock bands and cooked with chefs at the top of the game ,i have eaten in the world best and i have a life that my friends envy . They do not see the 75 hours or the driving home in the dark a broken man after a tough day .
Choose your carreer and work as much as you want ,if you love it attack it and shine , doors will open and your future will map itself out , if you watch the clock and moan about hours ???? well use your time more effectively and ride bikes if your good you might even get paid (but just watch you don't train and ride more than 40 hours ????? 😛

I would have thought your son would get information on available graduate jobs emailed to him by prospects.ac.uk. I get lots of updates from them and I don't think it's something I ever signed up for (whilst at uni).

I've only read the first few pages of replies but have to say, it's not just graduates that should be expecting more.

I'm currently on barely above minimum wage, zero hour contract, and so have no idea of what my hours are. They can give you 8 hours one week, or suddenly ask you to work extra days the next. Only ever when it suits them, of course.

The job market is tough for EVERYONE, not just graduates.

(I'm in the final year of a degree at the moment and have no illusions about walking in to a 40k a year job).

I've spoken to a couple of Enterprise Grad-scheme staff (when dropping me off etc). They aren't happy bunnies. Its sold as a management-scheme etc and it ends up as a glorified dogs-body. Its a con. Imagine trying to find presentable minimum wage people to work for you? Impossible.

Alot of the 'Grad scheme' title/roles as bollocks. Law firms (telesales staff positions), 'Marketing' roles (again telesales etc).

Grad-scheme retail where you do 1 yr in Store management can be hit and miss but then you do also get a year etc in head office so those are real.

NO ONE should be exploited like alot do now with fake title/promises.

(I'm in the final year of a degree at the moment and have no illusions about walking in to a 40k a year job).

Has anyone said that? There's a difference between a sub-minimum wage job with no prospects, and a good job which will open doors etc for a sensible salary.

(I'm in the final year of a degree at the moment and have no illusions about walking in to a 40k a year job).

Has anyone said that?

Yes, I did.

(I'm in the final year of a degree at the moment and have no illusions about walking in to a 40k a year job).

My first job was on min wage working at Levis head office. They didn't take the piss out of me.

My second was at Woolworths head office- same again.

Be wary of anything titled 'Graduate Schemes'. Someone somewhere is laughing in that company and what they've pulled off.

At my old partners company- they used to pay one year work placement Students a salary then someone said to the boss 'we are always over-subscribed, I bet we can get them to work for free for a year'. Nice one.

This is something of a first, a STW thread that has actually been some use where people have given good advice. Yes, really 😀
He has decided that he isn't going for the interview and is going to keep looking for other jobs that won't use and abuse.
Big thanks to fionap and ewan for your emails, if the jobs don't come round in the next month or two he will look at internship or temping to get a feel for what he likes/is good at.
Life was much simpler when I was a lad, you opened the yellow pages, wrote to some businesses, two weeks later you had a job.

Yes, I did.

Eh? I'm confused! You were inferring the OP's son is expecting to walk into a £40k job, and that's unrealistic and he needs to accept a sub-minimum wage role, I'm just saying there's something in the middle!

Be wary of anything titled 'Graduate Schemes'. Someone somewhere is laughing in that company and what they've pulled off.

Not necessarily, I work for a FTSE 100 and our graduate programme is very structured - you spend 2 years (IIRC) working in each of 4 different areas of the business, then get deployed appropriately after that. People generally progress extremely fast, but a lot of people dislike them as there's a huge aura of smugness around those on the scheme thinking they know everything, whilst the reality is that after 6 months they get a basic knowledge of lots and a detailed knowledge of nothing.

Great for the candidate though!

Personally I wouldn't, thats a terrible deal.

I joined the graduate scheme of a FTSE100 company just over 2 years ago. Started on 26k, I work 37 hours a week, get paid for my overtime and now earn £32k+ and know that my salary will continue to rise at a steady rate for the next 5/6 years. Admittedly I did an engineering degree where theres a lot more choice for graduates.

I would advise him to have a look around at other options. He may even be eliable for a place on our commercial / business / supply chain scheme.

EDIT: I would also advise him to go to the interview / assessment centre, it's all good practice and the feedback is useful for when he finds a scheme that he likes the look of.

As somebody else mentioned, going to the interview might still be a good idea purely for the experience.

As somebody else mentioned, going to the interview might still be a good idea purely for the experience

I agree. That's what I told my three to do when looking for job.

I have worked as a chef for 24 years , most weeks i work between 65 and 75 hours ,some days are 8am till after midnight with out a sit down break and eating while working . I love it .i have travelled around the world for 3 years with a formula 1 team ,travelled round Europe 3 times with rock bands and cooked with chefs at the top of the game ,i have eaten in the world best and i have a life that my friends envy . They do not see the 75 hours or the driving home in the dark a broken man after a tough day .
Choose your carreer and work as much as you want ,if you love it attack it and shine , doors will open and your future will map itself out , if you watch the clock and moan about hours ???? well use your time more effectively and ride bikes if your good you might even get paid (but just watch you don't train and ride more than 40 hours ?????

You are a chef so like my brother you are certifiably insane and shouldn't be giving advice to recent graduates. 😛 😆

Eh? I'm confused!

It would seem so. Joys of the web 'eh 😕