[Closed] Shooting in Paris... Spies and intelegence

I don't think the french intelligence agencies are quite as "informed" as ours is.

🙄

Roll away, rolly. Our anti terror laws and experience of dealing with terrorists far outweighs anything france have, but never mind that you just see it as a nationalistic slight and post emojis.

Maybe all those stories we get about planned attacks being thwarted are just pish designed to make us more fearful about the risk to us and wrongly confident in our security services.

Our anti terror laws and experience of dealing with terrorists far outweighs anything france have

Um, maybe look into the history of French North Africa before saying things like this.

I think if we truly knew the extent of intelligence the security services had to deal with we wouldn't be surprised that somethings slip through the net. Unfortunately, revelations by the likes of Wikileaks and Snowdon means that terrorists are increasingly able to avoid even our best methods of surveillance. The more we tie the hands of the security services on the basis of preventing a so called surveillance state means that we have to accept that sooner or later this sort of thing is going to happen. It's a sad world we live in...

Maybe all those stories we get about planned attacks being thwarted are just pish designed to make us more fearful about the risk to us and wrongly confident in our security services.

Um, maybe look into the history of French North Africa before saying things like this.

It's not a competition.

In recent cases in France it's simply that you can't imprison people because of what you suspect they might do or follow everyone you suspect 24/7. NI, H-block and the troubles show what happens when you start locking up and killing people without trial.

Moments before making a speech on the attacks, [url= https://twitter.com/markknoller/status/665281527526330369 ]President Obama was sitting next to[/url] probably the worlds #1 expert in spies, intelligence and terrorism, Henry Kissinger.

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Always a tragedy when innocent lives lost

jivehoneyjive - Member

Always a tragedy when innocent lives lost

Kissinger is certainly an expert in that.

unfitgeezer - Member
The other thread has gone in its usual fashion of bickering etc

it only took 1 reply b4 it descended into willy waving...

it only took 1 reply b4 it descended into willy waving...

kimbers - Member

unfitgeezer - Member
The other thread has gone in its usual fashion of bickering etc

it only took 1 reply b4 it descended into willy waving...

It is not me ...

There is no doubt we will experience another attack. We do however seem to be doing a good job so far of foiling them.

France has Europe's largest Muslim population which I suggest makes it more difficult for the French to track all suspects which are quite likely to be greater in number than we have to face and probably with a more sympathetic network. I think we in the UK also have a stronger relationship with the US and thus have better intelligence sharing and surveillance techniques. We also have first hand experience of fighting the IRA over many years.

jambalaya - Member
There is no doubt we will experience another attack. We do however seem to be doing a good job so far of foiling them.

It will happen.

The question is when and how to minimise the damage or how to stay one step ahead of them.

saying that he uk has better surveillence sounds like hubris, decades of experience with the IRA didnt stop the 7/7 bombings

kimbers - Member

saying that he uk has better surveillence sounds like hubris, decades of experience with the IRA didnt stop the 7/7 bombings

If they have the will they have the way.

@kimbers you cannot stop every plot, that's why I said we will have another attack. One will get through.

It's a sad world we live in...

Sums up my reaction to the rest of your post.

Either way, I can't help but feel immense sympathy with those in Paris at the moment. Truly horrific.

Edited.
Not sure realism is going to be wanted at the moment

Supposed to be going out in central London tonight with family.

I would assume Geography has a big part in it, the fact we are an island must make it easier to control who comes in and out.

We haven't had loads of 'refugees' entering the country either. I thought it was common knowledge that when Mainland Europe opened its doors to refugees that terrorist saw this as an opportunity to walk straight in.

Then there is the fact that France has been joining America in bombing Syria.

Whatever it's a very sad thing that has happened 🙁

wrecker - perhaps you need to spend a bit of time reading about the decades of terrorism on the French mainland in the 2nd half of last century. Almost 30 in the 80s alone with over 60 killed, far more than the ones in the UK in the same decade (approx 10 attacks and 30+ killed outside the sectarian violence in NI). Just because you haven't paid attention doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The French have as much experience in domestic terrorism as the UK.

We haven't had loads of 'refugees' entering the country either. I thought it was common knowledge that when Mainland Europe opened its doors to refugees that terrorist saw this as an opportunity to walk straight in.

The Charlie Hebdo attackers were born in France. The 7/7 London bombers were born in the UK. We have no idea where the Paris attackers were born, but there's no evidence at all that they came to France recently.

It's easy to think of the terrorist threat as stopping "them". It's much more difficult than that.

We haven't had loads of 'refugees' entering the country either. I thought it was common knowledge that when Mainland Europe opened its doors to refugees that terrorist saw this as an opportunity to walk straight in.

Randomly blaming refugees with no evidence is just displaying your own prejudices, the Charlie hebdo shooters grew up in France, 7/7 bombers in Bradford, France has plenty of disenfranchised youth of its own ripe for radicalisation.

Yes France started bombing Syria in september

This is the way to respond to both the refugee crisis and the Paris attacks:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/14/scotland-rothesay-bute-refugees-syria-welcome

Be more welcoming and caring, not less.

WHat Kimbers says

Bencooper how so?

It's just token gestures greatly after the event. A good decade+ after the event.

15 families on a small Scottish island isn't a token gesture for the people involved. What's needed is thousands more token gestures like this.

It's not an immediate solution. It's not hunting down and killing the terrorists. Because that's not a long-term plan.

Very sad and I despair at human civilisation most of the time these days. Lots of innocent lives lost for no reason.

Hora (and all)- Don't let this put you off your plans, routines, etc. There were 150(ish) killed in this attack, in a city with a population of over 2.25 million. What is the true probability that it would have been you if you were in Paris. Same goes for London (or any other large city). In reality the probability of you getting targeted or even being near the attack is miniscule.

The terrorist want you to be scared. That's the point. Just carry on as usual and don't play into their hands.

What has happened is truly awful and very difficult to comprehend. I hope France manages to get control.
Howver I have had concerns over the channel tunnel for months now, if refugees can just walk in what's to stop a terrorist with a bomb? Am I the only one to think that?

so called surveillance state

There is nothing "so called" about it. It is a surveillance state and becoming more so. Wether you are comfortable with that or not is a different thing.

Bencooper - unfortunately you could give every Syrian a palace in the UK and it wouldn't stop the terrorism. Re housing refugees isn't the answer either. Sorting out the problems in their country is the answer, not doing something that gives westerners a feel good factor

hora - Member
Bencooper how so?

It's just token gestures greatly after the event. A good decade+ after the event.

Don't let it be a token gesture.

Do the security services in the UK have a better rapport with "our" Muslims than the french?

wrecker - perhaps you need to spend a bit of time reading about the decades of terrorism on the French mainland in the 2nd half of last century. Almost 30 in the 80s alone with over 60 killed, far more than the ones in the UK in the same decade (approx 10 attacks and 30+ killed [b]outside the sectarian violence in NI[/b]). Just because you haven't paid attention doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Mainland GB attacks. Otherwise we can throw in the deaths in Algeria during the colonial times and it starts to get very complicated as to what counts as terrorism.

I don't think that we have better intelligence service than the French. Their problem if it is a problem is that they are one of the most open, inclusive and democratic societies in Europe. They have a very large population with a large population of Muslims that a small percentage of Radicals can hide behind.
We are an island state with policed borders where every aspect of our lives are micro managed by the government and security services, because of that we are possibly a harder target.
Time and time again the French amaze me with their attitude towards these atrocities.

Perhaps you could be a bit more selective?

FunkyDunc - Member
Bencooper - unfortunately you could give every Syrian a palace in the UK and it wouldn't stop the terrorism. Re housing refugees isn't the answer either. Sorting out the problems in their country is the answer, not doing something that gives westerners a feel good factor

I may be wrong here FD - but I think bencooper was giving an example of one type of action that shows we care and will take action to help others.

I think if we take action to be more fair on a global scale, economically and politically - we could cut out a large part of this tumour which causes the cancer of terrorism and war. Reduce inequality and remove a key driver for conflict. I know this will come over as naive and idealistic but I do think this is a large part of the answer.

Wrecker the point remain that France has experience of domestic terrorism comparable to what we experienced with the "troubles" you can prevaricate as much as you like but the facts dont support your initial assessment

Its not a big deal just accept it and move on

We can still debate whether our secret service/spies/troops/police are more awesome than theirs

Our anti terror laws and experience of dealing with terrorists far outweighs anything france have

There's lots we could do to make ourselves safer, but we have decades of aggressive foreign policy to contend with. Our mistakes in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria have made us less safe, not more.

But we still talk about 'intervention'. We still sell weapons to despotic regimes whose people aren't stupid, they know we're the enablers. We planted the seeds of this.

We planted the seeds of this.

Indeed.

We can still debate whether our secret service/spies/troops/police are more awesome than theirs

We planted the seeds of this.

When? After WW1?

After WW2?

The 1st Gulf War?

The 2nd Gulf War?

So the UK are to blame for the terrorist attacks on Paris?

Personally I think the right wing Islamist extremists are to blame for this.

gobuchul - Member - Block User

"We planted the seeds of this."

When? After WW1?

After WW2?

The 1st Gulf War?

The 2nd Gulf War?

Yes.

@ wrecker probably better to have clarified that earlier

Yes.

Well Lifer when was it?

I may be wrong here FD - but I think bencooper was giving an example of one type of action that shows we care and will take action to help others.

Exactly. ISIS base their whole ideology on a war between Islam and the West. The European response to the refugee crisis blew apart their worldview. Look who they attacked - cafes, a concert, a football match. Ordinary people of all religions and cultures. That's what they really, really hate - the idea that we can all get along together.

Want to hurt them? Want to get them right in their dark souls and stop them getting more recruits? Prove them wrong.

Back to the OP. The idea that intelligence services simply infiltrate a terrorist group and then pass on the details of a planned attack to thwart them just doesn't happen.
Terrorists work in small cells not normally more than 4 people and they will only have details of their attack. Their attacks may be timed to coincide with other cells actions but they will have no idea of these other cells members or plans so if they are compromised only their plan fails and the others continue unaffected. You will have someone who controls a small number of cells, these individuals will be unknown to each other so again if they are compromised the others remain protected. This carries on further up the hierarchy but from each step you can be crossing borders and the intelligence services targeting them. Each intelligence service will have its own ongoing investigations and must weigh up what they can divulge to others without compromising their own operations.
The logistics supplying them with funds and weapons are weak areas where intelligence services can get leads into something being planned but this will be something trivial and through lots of man power linked to other information until bigger picture appears. With all this work the majority of information comes from the community the terrorists operate amongst with informants and tip offs of suspicious behaviour from the general public. It is only when these communities turn against them that they are unable to operate.

Want to hurt them? Want to get them right in their dark souls and stop them getting more recruits? Prove them wrong.

Although I agree with the sentiment. It will not make any difference.

You are underestimating the power of this branch of extreme Islam.

A successful multi-cultural society will not "stop them getting more recruits".

The decadent, multi cultural society is what they hold up as the example of what is anti-Islamic.

Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.

I don't think the french intelligence agencies are quite as "informed" as ours is.

Didn't stop July 2005 attacks in London...

Extremists are getting smarter by the day and evolving so no matter how good any security service is anywhere this is gonna keep happening doesn't matter if it's Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jewish or Buddhist (yes Buddhism has murdering extremists too), while there are individuals who feel they are getting the raw end of anything extremism will happen. And while some individuals are bigoted this will help fuel the fires also.

And as to wrecker and the other chap arguing over who's the better history teacher trust me when I say neither of you know even close to the full story no one truly does and each incident is equally as bad as the last on all side where ever someone's life is lost in those horrific ways. SO please stop playing "TOP TRUMPS" terror attack edition it isn't nice to see from grown men who should know far better than that.

The only way this will ever end is if religion was to disappear and every individual to get the good end of the deal and everyone to see everyone else as a human being an individual with there own quirks/contributions as this won't happen anytime soon I truly am sad to say this will continue.

i dont think its fair to say an end of religion would end this as we would then just fight over resources.

We humans never seem to struggle to find a reason to kill each other/go to war with each other.

Religion is used as an excuse a hell of a lot by nasty people don't get me wrong religion does have a lot of good too it and good people behind it but it over the course of the centuries has been a large driving force for hate filled xenophobic behaviour and land grabbing or oppression in this enlightened age it should have left the ties to previous centuries behind and moved on from these behaviours but in a large proportion of cases it hasn't, from paedophiles given new names and moved to new areas by the Christian church's rather than handing them over to police of the country there in too the problems between the Jewish and Muslims in Gaza the hate there is unreal on both sides now if neither were aloud religion this wouldn't happen.

Way to many examples to list for pros and cons.

Also at least we would know the real reason for the argument and war rather than blanket answer of religious reasons be it food water land a less blurry line.

gobuchul - Member
You are underestimating the power of this branch of extreme Islam.

What makes these people "from an extreme branch of Islam" rather than extremists who state they are Muslims?

Were the IRA from an extreme branch of Catholicism or were the violent people who happened to be Catholic.

we can find examples of all of that in non religious - BBC and others in Saville for example.
Israel/Palestine is about land more than it is about religion IMHO - they are fighting over land primarily.

If 70% of the population are religious then of course lots of bad things happen in its name and its just not true to think most of this will disappear if we end religion
Lets not pretend the human condition is perfect but for the scourge of religion and world peace and mutual respect would break out if we somehow ended it tomorrow
We used to fight for Queen and country for example and plenty still will.

Were the IRA from an extreme branch of Catholicism or were the violent people who happened to be Catholic.

The IRA were not an extreme branch of Catholicism. In fact they weren't Catholic at all as they were all ex-communicated.

What they were fighting for was the province of NI to be included in the Irish Republic. The clue is in their name.

They didn't shout religious battle cry's when they attacked.

There are plenty of Imam's who openly preach what I would consider an "extreme branch" of Islam. In that they want the overthrow of democracy and that Sharia law is the only valid one as it's Gods law.

To try and pretend that this attack isn't driven by religious extremism is ridiculous and dangerous.

To try and pretend that this attack isn't driven by religious extremism is ridiculous and dangerous.

The troubles in Ireland had a stated political, social and religious foundation. No matter if they were excommunicated - the IRA were one side of a dispute where religion was used if not in battle then certainly in rhetoric from some leadership of the factions.

To pretend that death and war isn't about power, control and money is dangerous too. To be clear, I am not saying that is your view.

I don't know, but it looks from what I've read so far that most of this is shooting - there's no evidence of any serious grasp of explosives. There isn't a terrible shortage of guns knocking around Europe. Presumably people planning something that doesn't need that much more technical knowhow or supplies than you'd need for an armed robbery are much harder to spot than people trying to (for example) demolish a building or blow up planes.

😐

I don't know, but it looks from what I've read so far that most of this is shooting - there's no evidence of any serious grasp of explosives.

all were kitted up with suicide vests, weren't they? 7 used them.

And isn't it always Sunni Muslims that cause this trouble, whereas Shia are the more peaceful. The press never makes this distinction so everyone is tarred with the same brush.

[deleted, pointless]

On religion being a cause.

Bollocks.

Look what Hitler did in the name of Nationalism
Look what Stalin, Mao & Pol Pot did in the name of Communism
Look what we have done in the name of Democracy

Whenever atrocities are committed people like to place the blame on an ideology rather than the fact that the people committing the acts were evil and circumstances existed that allowed them to justify their actions against an inequality.

Turnerguy, Shia more peaceful? Hezbollah and the Houthies beg to differ.

assume not very sophisticated or using much/very good explosive.

The explosive used in the London bombings was home made and very basic.

It just goes to show how powerful this can be.

If they got their hands on some "proper" stuff like Semtex or PE4 then there could be some very devastating attacks. A scary thought.

There were 3 explosions outside the football stadium, although they were mistaken for fireworks by some, which would suggest that they weren't that powerful.

This is men with guns and basic explosives. It doesn't take much planning, and at no point did anyone have to get on a boat or a plane.

This is not years of planning, learning how to fly planes, complicated electronics, counterfeiting documents. This is men with guns and basic explosives.

I'm staggered it doesn't happen more.

Exactly. ISIS base their whole ideology on a war between Islam and the West. The European response to the refugee crisis blew apart their worldview. Look who they attacked - cafes, a concert, a football match. Ordinary people of all religions and cultures. That's what they really, really hate - the idea that we can all get along together.
Want to hurt them? Want to get them right in their dark souls and stop them getting more recruits? Prove them wrong.

This.

France is not a open and inclusive society. Who ever told you that is very wrong.

There will be a lot more deaths, the far right groups will get a lot more support and the rates of arson for none white buildings will increase.

No one feared the Irish accent much as they fear an Asian person or a person wearing a hijab.

Those classed as a easy target will be the first victims of revenge attacks (revenge attacks will happen)

So many more innocent people will lose there lives or suffer for the crimes of idiots.

You lot think too much.

I bet they will bring back cold war style assassination? Yes? I think they should.

I don't care how they deal with them just deal with them.

Cannot really be arsed to discuss about the entire history of mankind to be honest, after all these extremists are not here to be taught to change their mindset. They are here to change yours and to rule over you. Slowly slowly catchy western monkeys.

France is not a open and inclusive society. Who ever told you that is very wrong.

Really?

France is a very secular society. Since the revolution it does have any connection between the state and religion at all. That's not the same as closed and exclusive. However, it has led to some issues particularly with the wearing of traditional religious dress in public schools etc.

gobuchul - Member

France is not a open and inclusive society.

France is a very secular society

Ya, whatever coz both just don't work.

You have no more solution. All exhausted!

You are dealing with believers.

Just deal with the issue cold war style.

Terror attacks like this are designed to divide and conquer.

They are intended to create a hatred in the West for the Islamic world in general, and this needs to be recognised and ignored. IS want to gain popularity in the ME by creating hatred for regular citizens and driving them towards more extreme beliefs, ie them.

It's obvious, needs to be recognised, and needs to be what's reported.

As far as I usnderstand it the Koran says Islam will take over the world only after a huge war. The fundamentalists are trying to start that war. That's their belief system.

French TV reporting that a French citizen returning from Syria was detained by police 2 months ago after they intercepted messages to him from Belgium requesting he return in order to carry out attacks in Paris and specifically against large venues. Likewise a Spanish individual

Poland has said in light of the attacks in Paris they will ignore EU law and not take any refugees as they cannot be certain of their background. Likewise on German TV a member of Parliament says their civil service have no ability to determine the background on Syrians entering Germany as refugees. Merkel is likely to face a vote of no confidence. I've no doubt there are many genuine refugees but it's impossible to determine who is really who, false documents are rife and many are travelling without papers at all.

My 2 cents on France (wife is French and we spend a lot of time there, have lived there myself)

France is a totally secular country, it has the largest Muslim population in Europe. All laws and government organisations are totally secular. You cannot get married in a French church until you have first had a town hall secular wedding. France did band the burka which was indeed controversial. France is more left leaning than the uk and has generous benefits and welfare systems, Frnace grants citizenship to anyone born there. A very open society legally.

The reality is a bit different with significant segregation by choice of races and communities with many divided areas. All French police are armed and gun crime is quite prevalent. Shoot outs with automatic weapons are not uncommon between criminals and indeed the Police.

Belgium also has a very strong and radical Islamist undercurrent. The black Seat which the police are looking for had Belgian plates, it's a 2hr drive to the border.

hugo - Member
Terror attacks like this are designed to divide and conquer.

Ya, hence cold war style approach ....

jambalaya - Member
France is more left leaning than the uk and has generous benefits and welfare systems, Frnace grants citizenship to anyone born there.

Ya, their lefties did not really get into WWII (retaliating against the puppet govt etc) until something affected them then the lefties went on their "machine" like retaliation to their then invading master. Let's see if they will do so again ... cold war style.

jambalaya - Member
As far as I usnderstand it the Koran says Islam will take over the world only after a huge war.

Are they quoting Nostradamus?

Merkel is likely to face a vote of no confidence.

Stoopid woman is creating more trouble for everyone. Yes, if you want to take in refugee make sure you check them first. No, not all refugee are terrorists. If you want to get emotional then do it at your own private time you stoopid woman.

France is a beautiful country. In many many ways. It took me many years to realise that I'm a Francophile.

In 1991 I was warned not to enter a certain suburb as it was out of bounds. I ignored it and went (as it had a phonebox to phone home!). I saw the hostility etc first hand.

Doesn't alot of the perceived resement in modern Arab French stem from Algiers?

hora - Member
Doesn't alot of the perceived resement in modern Arab French stem from Algiers?

Most likely to be mixture IMO. The current tidal of extreme ideology just fuel up the situation even more.

All hail the killfile. It's a bit of freedom from radicals on STW.