[Closed] Shooting in Paris; casualties reported. Hope this isn't what it sounds like.

Problem is you can't really turn the other cheek.

We did against the IRA. Just called them criminals and carried on as much as possible though they weren't there.

When someone commits an atrocity to provoke you into changing policy the only sane response is to not change your policy.

I saw an item on TV about ISIS predilection for Hi-Lux trucks

well known fact that the lefty broadcasters made their sales pitch through Top Gear. #notarealhamster

I'd guess there are a lot in the Republican community who would say that the British government didn't turn the other cheek until quite late in the day

We did against the IRA. Just called them criminals and carried on as much as possible though they weren't there.

True, although we did ultimately give them what they wanted.

If we were to use the same approach with radical Islam, we would have to forego support of Israel. If the west stopped supporting Israel, the attacks would stop. I think that is the only credible route we can take. Israel is a nuclear power and can defend itself.

Sarkozy has chipped in with saying it should be a crime to view radical Islam sites in the same way as viewing child porn sites. Hollande has indulged in some bombing that one wonders why it was still left to be done if it was so important and Marine... .

It would be nice if my glorious leaders could be "assignés à résidence", fitted with a "bracelet électronique" and gagged for the time it takes for them to realise that making new enemies isn't helpful when you haven't got the means to deal with those you've already made.

I'm not sure this is about Isreal. As I understand it ISIS need 'Rome' to attack them at Dabiq to fulfill the Prophesy they're spouting.

The US and it's allies are "Rome" so beheading innocent people on Camera and committing this last atrocity are aimed at getting the West to go to war with them.

That's what they want. A physical Caliphate and their apocalyptic war.

The nearest thing to a victory we can achieve is to support their many opponents in the background and leave them isolated.

In a few years Sunnis in the region will realize they are just another failed government who show no sign of making people prosperous.

If we attack them we make them look like defenders of Arabs against the West. Which is the narrative they want.

I agree the core of the Jihadist movement is motivated by an apocalyptic vision of a showdown with the West.

But the wider support which Islamists have been able to garner from the Arab world including countries like Saudi Arabia rests entirely on the West's support for Israel. The West has imported the Arab-Israeli conflict and it is taking place by extension in the cities of Europe.

France has responded exactly how ISIS and other radical groups wanted them to respond. It's depressing no Western leaders see this is a trap. More cynically, I'd suggest they use the fear which terrorism breeds to build their own political popularity by sending in the planes.

I think you're right and that both sides are willing to play the same game - for different reasons. For US and UK, it's a policy of perpetual warfare.

Ticks lots of boxes. Shows leaders to be strong. Maintains investment in military industry. Provides dead and injured soldiers to idolise. Fosters patriotism. Justifies removal of freedoms. Generally keeps society fearful and more manageable.

France has responded exactly how ISIS and other radical groups wanted them to respond. It's depressing no Western leaders see this is a trap. More cynically, I'd suggest they use the fear which terrorism breeds to build their own political popularity by sending in the planes.

Damn if they do, damn if they don't. The leader must be seen to do something.

Or they can apply cold war style making people disappear ... without publicity.

interesting article mudmuncher, thanks for posting the link

Quite right Copa.

The political atmosphere is all too reminiscent of the aftermath of 9/11.

An article written by Peter Hitchens (I recognise he isn't too popular on here) called for calm and consideration rather than reprisals. It's received hundreds of downvotes.

As Yogi Berra put it, it's deja vu all over again.

We did against the IRA. Just called them criminals and carried on as much as possible though they weren't there.
True, although we did ultimately give them what they wanted.

If we were to use the same approach with radical Islam, we would have to forego support of Israel. If the west stopped supporting Israel, the attacks would stop. I think that is the only credible route we can take. Israel is a nuclear power and can defend itself.

The thing is that you could negotiate with the IRA as they had a clearly stated set of goals. The only goal, if you could call it that, you see with this lot, is the complete subjugation of everyone and everything to their philosophy. So what negotiating position do you take when thats your starting point?

You can't negotiate with fascists, because the whole point of fascism is the absolute refusal to recognise any other philosophy than your own as legitimate.

Do they look like they want to sit down and discuss compromise any time soon?

Do they look like they want to sit down and discuss compromise any time soon?

The core of the Islamist movement doesn't, as you say they are hellbent on destruction for its own sake.

But the powers which are funding these guys, not least Saudi Arabia, would pull the plug if the West took a different line on Israel. Europe has effectively imported the Arab-Israeli conflict into its own cities.

atlaz

Problem is you can't really turn the other cheek. Not only does it show weakness which again will be used as a rallying cry for the extremists, but it is unpalatable to the majority of people who elected you.

How can anyone say that with a straight face when you've bombed the shit out of the middleast for generations?

atlaz

I'd guess there are a lot in the Republican community who would say that the British government didn't turn the other cheek until quite late in the day

And every volunteer killed in shoot to kill policies by the security forces created 10 more in their place. Every innocent catholic illegally interned, illegally detained, assaulted, insulted, murdered...all contributed to the ranks of the IRA.

But the powers which are funding these guys, not least Saudi Arabia, would pull the plug if the West took a different line on Israel.

you talk shit my friend and anyone that believes what you say or has your pathetic thoughts talk shit.

What happened in Paris happens in Israel on a daily basis with stabbing etc but you Islam loving idiots wont/don't see it...

Its the same war whether its in Israel Africa Europe Australia they want anyone that doesn't share their view wiped off the planet and you lot with your loving views I'm sure will be spared...

But the powers which are funding these guys, not least Saudi Arabia, would pull the plug if the West took a different line on Israel.

Sorry fella, but that really is hopelessly naive. While I'm no fan of our unquestioning support for Israel (in fact I think its ridiculous), that would be seen as the first victory in an ongoing war, and they'd just march towards the next one. These people are idealogical zealots, who's only goal is the complete subjugation of everyone to their ideology. One of the stated aims of that is the destruction of Israel. So if we all stop supporting Israel, what do you think would happen next?

binners

So if we all stop supporting Israel, what do you think would happen next?

Nuclear military super power Israel would suddenly be defenseless? Would their tanks and helicopters and fighter jets suddenly rust and decay? Would they run out of missiles to drop on innocent civilians?

Nice to see solidarity in participation of the 1min silence...

Remember Islam is a religion of peace...

stupid comment is stupid, etc etc...

Nuclear military super power Israel would suddenly be defenseless? Would their tanks and helicopters and fighter jets suddenly rust and decay? Would they run out of missiles to drop on innocent civilians?

Look at the whole track record of western interference in the middle east over the last few decades. If it teaches us anything,its that we have absolutely no ****ing idea what will happen when we try to achieve something by any particular action.

The only constants are

a) It never ever works out remotely as we thought it would
b) Its always about ten times worse than our initial assessment of what the worst case scenario would look like

So I haven't the remotest idea what would happen if the west withdrew its support for Israel, but ones things for sure, neither do I want to find out what that might look like. Because I think we can say with some degree of certainty is that it wouldn't end well

One of the stated aims of that is the destruction of Israel. So if we all stop supporting Israel, what do you think would happen next?

Israel is a nuclear power with the most sophisticated defense system around. It can protect itself.

The grievance which ISIS and other radical groups exploit is Israel. If you attempt to address that grievance, then you take away the main recruiting tool of use to radical Islamists. You can also put a wedge in between it and the wider Arab world.

As I said, radical Islamism has a core of fanatics, but like any revolutionary group, it is dependent on outside sources of support and funding. I'm not saying radical Islamism will stop being a force any time soon, but it's a far wiser policy than continuing to bomb and invade the Middle East.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/syria-same-20151116103884

Nails it.

binners

So I haven't the remotest idea what would happen if the west withdrew its support for Israel, but ones things for sure, neither do I want to find out what that might look like, because I think we can say with some degree of certainty is that it wouldn't end well

Condemning Israel's actions isn't the same as standing idly by and watching another holocaust unfold. Western indifference to Israels genocidal approach to self defense just emboldens Israel and enrages their neighbours and makes western powers look even more transparently hypocritical, just one more thing to help radicalise young muslims.

you talk shit my friend and anyone that believes what you say or has your pathetic thoughts talk shit.

In this case unfitgeezer, I think it's fairly obvious you are the one talking shit (twice, in one sentence!).

Suggesting the West tries to find a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict does not make one an "Islam loving idiot".

As it happens, I'm often in Israel, and support it's existence. But many Israelis recognise the situation can't go on like this. I've also travelled in the Arab world and it doesn't take long to pick up on the fact that Israel is a major grievance (it does not follow that most Muslims want it destroyed, they just want a different approach).

Suggesting the West tries to find a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict does not make one an "Islam loving idiot".

i was talking about some of the posters on here.

Does anyone outside of IS really understand what their end game is? I've seen lots over the past couple of years but it somehow doesn't ring true or contradicts itself at times.

Read an article at the weekend (linked to elsewhere on this forum now) that made me sit back & think a lot more than the usual stuff metered out by the press & western gov'ts: [url= http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ ]What ISIS Really Want[/url]

Not sure what I believe (or don't) anymore but doubt that any 'concession' made to them will change their intensions nor actions.

Possibly, but I saw an item on TV about ISIS predilection for Hi-Lux trucks. Apparently Toyota are not happy with the publicity.

They UK Army used to refer to them as the 'Toyota Taliban' in Afganistan - "The go where you like, do what you like, take what you like truck"

But the powers which are funding these guys, not least Saudi Arabia, would pull the plug if the West took a different line on Israel.

Hard to know what IS wants and, let us not forget in the heat of the current crisis, they are merely the latest enemy of the West.

There is no doubt US (and Allies including UK and France) foreign policy, especially in Iraq in 2003 created the perfect conditions for radicalisation, but the picture is very complex.

Good article here: http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

Trying Blair as a war criminal might be a suitable act of contrition.

What is also clear, but not widely discussed, despite being at the heart of the diaspora, is the opposition of Western laws, values and freedoms by even 'non extreme' sectors of Islam. Principally:
- Women, their equality
- Homosexuals, tolerance of
- Plus other stuff including Alcohol, Pork etc.

What is 'radical' any way?

ISIS is just one of many Islamist movements that have emerged from the politicisation of Islam by writers like Sayyid Qutb earlier in the twentieth century.
Qutb's writing essentially imported ideas of permanent world revolution from Lenin and applied it to Islam. One of my lecturers at university once called Qutb's writings "ecuminically unhelpful" - but he was always prone to understatement.
The point being, radical Islam is an ideology, meaning it crops up again and again until the conditions which allow it to flourish are addressed.
So the West could go in and decimate ISIS, but another radical Islamist group would quickly emerge (like a bacterial, they seem to get more lethal with each new strain).

Indeed a worrying time for moderate Muslims.

I agree, mainly because you saw it necessary to include the word 'moderate' in that sentence, the implication being that there are many non-moderate muslims when there is very little evidence of that. IS/Al Qaida nutters are very good at exploiting the racial and cultural schisms between the west and Islam, sadly we are even better at reinforcing them with lazy bigotry.

Hard to know what IS wants

I'm not sure it is. Seems pretty obvious to me that the IS strategy is not too far off what the nazis strategy was in the 20s/30s. They want to stir up hatred and persecution of muslims across the west, so that those 'moderate' muslims support their cause. And from the lazy use of the term 'moderate muslim', the sensationalism of the media, to the outright idiocy of the likes of Britain First et al, you'd have to conclude that their strategy is working like a dream. It won't be long before we're embroiled in another war which will make previous middle east conflicts look like a minor skirmish. Scary times ahead I fear. Thank god I'm too old to be conscripted.

Do they look like they want to sit down and discuss compromise any time soon?

If you really want to know what the likes of ISIS want and where 5hey actually stand within the realms 9f Islam just google the word ,"khawarij" or "takfeeri". Google for Sayid Qutb the godfather of the modern day extremist. You'll get a picture of who and what these people are.

I used the term "moderate Christians" on page 2 of this thread. It's not lazy use of a term it's accurate use of a qualifier used to indicate that those being referred to are law abiding citizens who play a positive role in society, don't to impose their faith or convictions on others and don't let their faith dominate theri every word or action. I'll add "fundamentalist Christians", "devout Christians", "practicing Christians" and you can no doubt think of a few more to designate those who have higher levels of Christian commitment.

If the West stopped supporting Israel (which will never happen) there would be a regional apocalypse which would make the 1m people who have died in regional conflicts in the last 50 years pale into insignificance.

I for one don't think the West's support for Israel is the key factor in the rise of extremism. It's part of the rhetoric but not the cause. Osama B-L and Al-Q felt the West had not done enough to protect Muslims in The Balkans, IS is part of the Sunni-Shia sectarian war which has been going on for a very long time. If you are a Muslim dissatisfied with the West's support of Israel your responce wouldn't be to kill 100,000's of your fellow Muslims. Syria is in the midst of a civil war which hasn't the slightest to do with people's views on Israel

I think we can have a fair stab at what ISIS want:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

They even have a ISIS publication which spells out what they want.

I agree, mainly because you saw it necessary to include the word 'moderate' in that sentence, the implication being that there are many non-moderate muslims when there is very little evidence of that. IS/Al Qaida nutters are very good at exploiting the racial and cultural schisms between the west and Islam, sadly we are even better at reinforcing them wi

EDIT: also I out "moderate" and non-moderate are not afraid, this is what they wanted. I don't really care if they are afraid, I care more that they are neutralised either by imprisonment if possible or ultimately by their deaths

As I posted I seen numerous comments in the media and heard directly that the Muslim community particularly in Europe must do much more than it has been that it fully supports the open, free, democratic life we enjoy here and fully buy in to the value system which we have. Gonzy has always been clear about his views but some of the statements from representative groups have frankly been a bit weak. How about orgbaizing their own anti-radicalisation programme and demonstrating how information they are sharing with the police is helping to eradicate extremists in the UK and beyond ?

How does it sell the oil? Much off it gets sold to it's enemy Assad.

Apparently the Kurds buy oil from ISIS as well. Quite incredible, financing your enemy.

How about orgbaizing their own anti-radicalisation programme and demonstrating how information they are sharing with the police is helping to eradicate extremists in the UK and beyond ?

More casual bigotry. Why is it the responsibility of the many muslim friends I have to demonstrate what they are doing against extremism? You are making the extremely lazy assumption that they are somehow associated with extremism because they are muslims. Have you any idea what you sound like? Like I said above, think back to the 20s/30s and what the nazis did. This sort of rubbish is no different to what the average German used to say about Jewish people.

dazh - Member

More casual bigotry. Why is it the responsibility of the many muslim friends I have to demonstrate what they are doing against extremism? You are making the extremely lazy assumption that they are somehow associated with extremism because they are muslims. Have you any idea what you sound like? Like I said above, think back to the 20s/30s and what the nazis did. This sort of rubbish is no different to what the average German used to say about Jewish people.

if you want to use the Nazism analogy,it would be better applied to the thought that moderate Muslims are comparable with non-Nazi Germans.

Who or what is moderate though? Where is the line in regard to democracy, gender and sexual equality?

This does not paint a very attractive picture:

Time to hold my hands up. As someone from an Irish Catholic Family, we did very little to publicly denounce the IRA. I suppose that means that tacitly we were all broadly supportive of what they were up to

Sorry

binners - Member

Time to hold my hands up. As someone from an Irish Catholic Family, we did very little to publicly denounce the IRA. I suppose that means that tacitly we were all broadly supportive of what they were up to

Sorry

However, as others have said, the IRA and extremist Muslim groups have very different aims and agenda. The IRA never sought to change the laws, customs and the very democracy the whole of the UK and the rest of the world live in, they merely wanted certain things for Northern Ireland/Eire.

The IRA never sought to change the laws, customs and the very democracy the whole of the UK and the rest of the world live in,

we were all broadly supportive of what they were up to

just to be clear binners, the objectives or the execution?

No real point to make, but found this interesting in terms of how easily anyone can potentially be radicalised (to any viewpoint) and how easy it is to twist and shape opinion on such events.

Was discussing Paris with my Year 7 form this morning in a school with a VERY low number of non-white english students. All but one of them denounced the actions of the nutters but one lad (white, working class) was adamant that they were right to believe in something enough to die for it even if that meant killing others too. Only one in 30, but extrapolated lazily that's 50 students in this school already open to the ideas of extremism...

Conversely (and more positively), only one student answered "because they're Muslim" to the question "why do you think they did it?" - he was soon put in his place (by his classmates, not by me).

Soobalias - you must have accidentally turned your sarcasmometer off. Just flick it back on mate, and it'll all make sense 😉

I've read and watched quite a few things today that gave me pause for thought.

The first is a BBC interview which I think was recorded some time back - it reflects a balance of views from young british muslims but two of the participants are quite comfortable articulating views that to me at least are fairly abhorrent and not compatible with the secular democracy that most people in Britain value. My concern isn't whether their views are representative - surveys have already told us they are, more what kind of future is in hold for our society if we continue to allow these views to propagate:

The second thing I wanted to share is an audio blog from atheist journalist Sam Harris who appears to be well respected and writes for many of the world's best news publication. His analysis IS not of the last week's outrages in Paris, Kenya or Lebanon but again poses some very difficult questions that I'm not sure we as a society are necessarily ready / willing to answer:

https://soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/still-sleepwalking-01

The audio blog is quite long but well worth a listen and I'm genuinely interested in any reading any reactions from STW, either for or against the argument he's making

I'm trying to work out if the islamophobic types on this thread that repeatedly ignore facts in order to support their bigotry are actually closet white supremacists

The government (understandably) cannot get their heads around the fact/deal with the fact, that they are up against an ideology.. It doesn't have a central point to go and kill (like a Hollywood villain lair)..its an ideology that is internalised anywhere on the globe...and then secular groups perform their own acts....it's pretty scary really...

closet white supremacists

Bit late to this point from yesterday

Toyota 4x4's. Pretty much the number 1 vehicle of choice in the Middle East/desert. Widely recognised as the best by some margin.

All but one of them denounced the actions of the nutters but one lad (white, working class) was adamant that they were right to believe in something enough to die for it even if that meant killing others too. Only one in 30, but extrapolated lazily that's 50 students in this school already open to the ideas of extremism...

That's exactly why the armed forces puts so much effort into visiting schools. But obviously killing people for a belief in Queen and country isn't extremism...it's noble, brave and honorable.

@Colournoise - you might want to see what they teach the children in Syria. "Jihad. Jihd. We are going kill the Jews". It's ironic that what they are actually going to do is mainly to kill other Muslims

But obviously killing people for a belief in Queen and country isn't extremism...it's noble, brave and honorable.

Careful now. That sort of logical leap will just confuse people. Funnily enough I remember the army coming in to school. All I remember is some Dad's Army type with a massive moustache banging on about how we were being invaded by the IRA, and how if you joined the army you got to do all sorts of cool things like skiing and mountain climbing. Getting your legs blown off to protect the profits of a few oil and arms companies wasn't mentioned for some reason.

The most anti Islamic people I have ever encountered where not white

The most anti Islamic people I have ever encountered where not white

Wait, you don't have to be white to be anti-islamic? Who'd have thought.

As expected, there's a tremendous quantity of bollox spouted on this thread. In the interests of trying to find some constructive way forward, I though this was interesting ...

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/ <

“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.

“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.

Yes, of course there was war in fhe Saddam era - the US-supported war with Iran.

al-anfal?

Another interesting article:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/no-piers-morgan-how-destroy-islamic-state-1630388804

Hollande hasmade some bold pledges;

5,000 extra police posts in the next two years and no new cuts in the defence budget
Making it easier to strip dual nationals of their French citizenship if they are convicted of a terrorist offence, as long as this did not render them stateless
Speeding up the deportation of foreigners who pose "a particularly grave threat to the security of the nation"
Pushing for greater European action against arms trafficking and greater penalties for it in France

As I posted I seen numerous comments in the media and heard directly that the Muslim community particularly in Europe must do much more than it has been that it fully supports the open, free, democratic life we enjoy here and fully buy in to the value system which we have.

Wow, Hollande sure stepped up!

..like lifting UK residents who keep going on "holiday" to Syria, how dare they suggest such an abuse of our rights!

Hard to know what IS wants

As has been pointed out they're very clear what they want, and it's totally bonkers. They even have a five year plan including rather bonkers map of what countries they aim to have control of in five years.

All the background to them is there in the links already posted in this thread. I wish everyone would read it so they understand who they are, rather than picking up soundbites from facebook or the press that feed the ignorance.

nostoc - Member - Block User
“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.

A lot of them believe it, and they were the ones who lived through it:

This whole experience has been very familiar indeed to Doug Stone, the American general on the receiving end of this diatribe. “He fits the absolutely typical profile,” Stone said afterward. “The average age of all the prisoners in Iraq when I was here was 27; they were married; they had two children; had got to sixth to eighth grade. He has exactly the same profile as 80 percent of the prisoners then…and his number-one complaint about the security and against all American forces was the exact same complaint from every single detainee.”

JY No India. I was going to put that in the original post but I was interested to see who would jump to conclusions. Decades of violent conflict before and after the partion of India has lead to very entrenched attitudes on both sides. The slaughter of many Indians at the Kenya Mall siege and the Mumbai attacks is symptomatic.

DrJ Of course, I was responding to @yunki

Another interesting article:

This is part of the problem. In this thread there are two seemingly coherent, well researched articles which hold opposing views. The one DrJ posted says (interestingly, like the French muslims I work with) that ISIS are thugs/criminals interested in power who have co-opted their religion and convinced undereducated and easily influenced people that it's about religion. The other, I CBA to search through the thread until i find it, tells us it's a real religious movement and needs to be addressed as such.

Whilst it's not uncommon to find opposing views of the same thing, when neither of these are particularly supportive of ISIS (although the latter comes closer), it's concerning that nobody can decide whether it's fish or fowl. We can't really dismantle ISIS (beyond killing them all and letting the god of your/their choice sort em out) without understanding what it is we're dismantling otherwise elements of it will develop into something worse or at least different as it's hard to imagine what worse would look like.

“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.

Correct. Iran Iraq war. Around 1.25 - 1.5 million casualties for starters. Short memories. Or was that war caused by western imperialists as well?

Yes.

interference by the "west" and suppression of democratic movements (propping up Shah and then supporting Hussein) was certainly one of the causes of the Iran-Iraq war, but not the only one.

Reading for anyone who still thinks Blair and Bush started this....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game

irc - Member - Block User
“I didn’t like Saddam, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Bullshit. Maybe sincerely believed, bur bullshit.
Correct. Iran Iraq war. Around 1.25 - 1.5 million casualties for starters. Short memories.

Or someone too young to remember that war, as opposed to Gulf 2

@atlaz IS is just a more virulent form of an Islamist fundamental movement. In reality there are many, Al-Q, Al-Shabib, Taliban, Hamas, Al-N etc. Have a look at the last Vicenews video I posted. It's my contention such behaviour exists throughout the world, perhaps not as publically but the attitudes and education certainly do.

JY No India. I was going to put that in the original post but I was interested to see who would jump to conclusions.

I just watched the whole vice news report posted by jambalaya above.

It's one of the most sickening and depressing things I've ever watched - how can anyone corrupt the minds of children like that?

JY No India. I was going to put that in the original post but I was interested to see who would jump to conclusions.

No one jumped to any conclusions as only I replied and that was to take the piss.

Moar.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-terror-alert-ambulance-packed-6849876

Sorry for The Mirror link...ahem...

monkeyfudger - Member
Moar.

Crikey ...

Moar.

I suspect thats going to be Merkel out of a job!