[Closed] Shooting in Paris; casualties reported. Hope this isn't what it sounds like.

Things will kick off soon by the look of things ...

If Hollande does not act then he will be viewed as a donkey in the French eyes.

Do we expect local church groups to mobilise when a christian nutjob kicks off somewhere? The W.I.? The local boys choir?

Was saddened last night when all this unfolded, saddened even more now as the realisation settled in.

Do we expect local church groups to mobilise when a christian nutjob kicks off somewhere?

There are plenty of Christian nut jobs doing crazy stuff.

But when was the last time a terrorist act was committed in the "name" of a Christian Church, particularly with the final amibtion of the destruction of a non-Christian religion?

As per other comments, Saudi is the home of extremism we accept it because of the trading links.

I'm not sure why they go for harder guarded targets like London and Paris - they could go to somewhere like Derby in a few weeks during Xmas shopping, walk into the shopping centre unhindered and cause as many or more casualties.

A person can enter any town in any country as we dont have police checkpoints/body searches enroute.

As for Muslims condemning them its on their website , its on facebook so perhaps its because you dont read these places

We are profoundly saddened by the loss of innocent lives in Paris, and our deepest condolences are with the family and friends of the victims, and the French nation.

Britons of all backgrounds, of every faith, every denomination, and none, are horrified by what we have learned, and are determined that those who seek to divide our diverse and peaceful communities in Europe will not succeed.

There is no justification for murder, and all British faith communities agree that those who commit acts of violence cannot do so in the name of any faith. Any such claim is illegitimate.

British Muslim communities are equally appalled by the violence, and angered by those who commit abhorrent acts in the name of religion. The perpetrators do not represent us; their views are perverse and self-serving.

We urge all communities in Britain and France to stand firm with compassion and solidarity. We must not let these terrorists divide us, otherwise the terrorists will win. Let us not play into their divisive narrative, and instead show them that people of all faiths and none can live peacefully, together.

Like the terrorists who want to divide communities, there will be some in the days ahead who will try to use this atrocity to attack innocent people. We equally reject their intentions.

It is evil people who do evil things; such acts will only increase our resolve to remain united.

+Lots of folk signing it

But when was the last time a terrorist act was committed in the "name" of a Christian Church, particularly with the final amibtion of the destruction of a non-Christian religion?

Well there are white supremacist attacks fairly often and I dont feel any social pressure to point out that I am white but have nothing to do with folk like this and despise everything they say

Why do Muslims need to condemn this its a given that "any right thinking person" condemns it.
I dont need to ask them ,the RNLI, the British Legion or the AA what they think of it as i know.

wilburt - Member

As per other comments, Saudi is the home of extremism we accept it because of the trading links.

That place will return to the rightful owner the desert sand in future once all these troubles are over - It's not a matter of if but when (I am referring to their objective of world domination and when the world takes action against them in future - not a single event like in Paris but multiple events over the world).

Junkyard - lazarus

It is evil people who do evil things; such acts will only increase our resolve to remain united.

+Lots of folk signing it

If evil people do evil things - take them out!

What's the point of pussy footing singing about it? This is not a musical competition you know.

I don't need to ask them what they think of it as I know

Precisely
But as I pointed out, Islamophobes are a sickeningly ignorant bunch 🙁

Why do Muslims need to condemn this its a given that "any right thinking person" condemns it.

A man with a pedal-towed piano turned up at the concert hall and played Imagine.

There's no enough condemnations in the world to satisfy people that have already decided to blame Muslims.

Why weren't rando Americans asked to condemn the deliberate bombing of civilian hospitals?

But when was the last time a terrorist act was committed in the "name" of a Christian Church, particularly with the final amibtion of the destruction of a non-Christian religion?

I don't remember being asked to condemn it because I'm a Christian

konabunny - Member
I don't remember being asked to condemn it because I'm a Christian

Are you Christian? Do you go to Church? Are you a believer as in God creation?

If not then there is nothing to do with you (assuming STW rationality of science) however having sympathy and trying to help another being is a good thing ...

Posted on the other thread too

One terrorist confirmed as Syrian who passed through Greece as a registered refugee - AFP/Reuters/Sky

Anyone going to a vigil tonight?

Nah I've changed my profile on Facebook to me covered in a French flag, that's enough

One terrorist confirmed as Syrian who passed through Greece as a registered refugee - AFP/Reuters/Sky

To be precise, one passport found at the scene on the body of one of the attackers. Not confirmed it was his passport.

Because "I'm going on a suicide mission, better take my real passport" isn't the first thing you'd expect a professional terrorist to think.

Well, there was that time Orthodox fanatics killed 8,000 Muslims in the middle of Europe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre br />
I don't remember being asked to condemn it because I'm a Christian

You didn't need to as your Government did it for you and the UN.

If you remember there was heavy criticism of the Dutch peace keepers who pulled out and basically left them to it.

So the fact that every Muslim government including Iran, plus Hamas and Islamic Jihad have condemned the attacks means we can stop going on about wanting ordinary Muslims to as well.

...heavy criticism of the Dutch peace keepers who pulled out and basically left them to it...

Tbf, while the situation wasn't black and white, I don't remember anyone criticising the "Dutch Christians" who left them to it.

jambalaya - Member

Posted on the other thread too

One terrorist confirmed as Syrian who passed through Greece as a registered refugee - AFP/Reuters/Sky

[b]NO WAY?![/b] You're telling me that in the biggest migration seen since the second world war, amid the utter chaos of a war zone best by various factions of armed-to-the-teeth psychotic lunatics, as millions flea an entire region thats dissolved into anarchy, into another region without borders, completely unprepared to deal with it, that somehow, though god only knows how, ISIS has managed to smuggle a terrorist in

Well **** me! They're cleverer than I thought! How the hell did they manage that? The devious bastards!

You didn't need to as your Government did it for you and the UN.

What reaction has there been from the uk Muslim community?

(It's stupid to talk about a UK Muslim community anyway, as there isn't one single community.

Because "I'm going on a suicide mission, better take my real passport" isn't the first thing you'd expect a professional terrorist to think.

All family and friends safe but have heard a very sad story. There will be many to come out I'm sure. A lot of teenagers where at the concert.

The terrorists want their real identities to be known, as far as they and sympathisers are concerned they are doing something worthy of a very great honour

better take my real passport

Hmm, there's two questions there though aren't there?

I) did the Syrian passport actually belong to the perpetrator (ie. was the person identified in the passport the person who blew himself up)

Ii) even if it [b]wasn't[/b] actually *his*, was the perpetrator a foreign national who used that passport to enter the EU on the basis of being a Syrian refugee.

Both the above leave open the vital question of border security, and the possibility/probability/inevetability that terrorists are entering the EU claiming refugee status.

Both, arguably, also support the argument that was being made by the 'right wing nutters' some time ago that people seeking to enter the EU as refugees ought to be quarantined and processed carefully rather than just allowed to enter.

Righteo - just seen this point of view posted elsewhere - said that nuclear weapons obviously don't deter our current gretest threat, so wh are we spending an absolute fortune on replacing them?

Nuclear weapons - because who knows what threats will arise in the future? Because who knows how other nuclear powers - Russia, China, would react if we ditched ours?

About 15 years ago sections of military intelligence were saying that conflicts would be more guerrilla action than toe to toe big guns.

Sometimes I despair of humanity. Able to make you weep with pride and anger.

There's an iman on TF1, his condemnation is in stronger terms than François Hollande last night. "Il faut sanctionner les lieux de prière qui sont les lieux de haine".

Edit: "We must punish places of worship that are places of hate".

Punishing the hate sites - good plan.

said that nuclear weapons obviously don't deter our current gretest threat, so wh are we spending an absolute fortune on replacing them?

[u]Current[/u]

Doesn't mean that it's our [u]only[/u] threat, doesn't mean nuclear weapons are our [u]only[/u] response, doesn't mean that they are our [u]only[/u] deterrence.

The concept of deterrence is focused around a variety of different potential threats and responses, to dismiss it as 'we have nuclear weapons and they haven't deterred terrorist attacks' given that they represent about 6-7% of the (bit under) 2% of GDP that we spend on defence (plus a bit under 1% of GDP on foreign aid) is to state that 'we also have planes, bombs, guns, soldiers, submarines, foreign aid, immigration, emigration, education, medical aid programmes and debt relief, but none of them deterred it either'

We had nuclear weapons in the Cold War, I don't think we ever suggested that they were a deterrence against IRA terrorism, nor would I suggest that we would have ever seen them as a proportionate response to IRA terrorism however terrorism was not the only threat that we faced during the Cold War (even though we recognise that the arming and funding of the IRA was, in part, an aspect of the Cold War, given KGB funding etc.) nor is it the only threat we face today, or may face in the future.

Nuclear weapons are a means to 'mutual assured destruction'and nothing else.

I for one am willing to point every WMD at every Marmite factory in the world, if it wasn't for the risk of super heated Marmite raining down from the skies and smothering me to death (and beyond)

What's the motivation, other than spreading terror via fear?.

Do ISIS/ISIL have an interest in stopping the mass migration for the Middle East into Europe?. This event will give a few governments who are looking for an excuse to shut their borders to do exactly that.

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

What's the motivation, other than spreading terror via fear?.

Do ISIS/ISIL have an interest in stopping the mass migration for the Middle East into Europe?. This event will give a few governments who are looking for an excuse to shut their borders to do exactly that.

Even in fundamentalist terms, they are an extreme group. People use the term death cult, there's a good PDF on them, link please. They want to incite a holy war. This attack rightly or wrongly alienate Muslims, increase police and military pressure on those communities and obviously embolden racists, white supremacists....

I would imagine attacks like this will make it more difficult for refugees to easily integrate into western European societies and increase the chances that some of them will be marginalised/radicalised.

It may also lead to further western military in Syria/Iraq leading to further protracted fighting and total war in the middle east. Who knows.

I think you're right and that that's exactly what these headbangers want. They're actively seeking the final confrontation (unlike btw the Taleban).

Headbangers is about right- this is from earlier this year, and should probably be essential reading; [url= http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ ]Atlantic article[/url]

Also, the best response I've seen, from Charlie Hebdo's cartoonist, Joann Starr:[img] https://flic.kr/p/B68nQF [/img]

This made a really shit situation even worse..

[IMG] [/IMG]

Complete and utter twunt.

If you want terrorism* to end you need terrorists to stop and reverse their previously held positions. Its surely proof that peace and reconciliation can happen,.

* I know that debate and I am just using that word here to reply.

Don't follow the herd and add the tricolour to your facebook page it means nothing ,neither will prayers

this is from earlier this year, and should probably be essential reading; Atlantic article

As a map person the map in that was interesting and led me to this, might be of interest to some,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27838034

None of this would be happening if Blair and Bush and their chums hadn't invaded Iraq after the old black gold. Some mainstream reading for anyone interested, rather than bickering

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/25/tony-blair-is-right-without-the-iraq-war-there-would-be-no-isis
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/did-george-w-bush-create-isis

Both, arguably, also support the argument that was being made by the 'right wing nutters' some time ago that people seeking to enter the EU as refugees ought to be quarantined and processed carefully rather than just allowed to enter.

The first properly identified terrorist is French, it is going to be a logistical nightmare interning the whole of France and processing them to make sure they are not terrorists.

There you go Johnny
[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/673/23030508611_761e8bf90c.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/673/23030508611_761e8bf90c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/B68nQF ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/woodwings75/ ]John Woodings[/url], on Flickr

Don't follow the herd and add the tricolour to your facebook page it means nothing ,neither will prayers

Just about everyone on FB has gone Tricolour, I don't get it or see what it achieves either. I did however share this from a person I have never met or known

you never think it will happen to you. It was just a friday night at a rock show. the atmosphere was so happy and everyone was dancing and smiling. and then when the men came through the front entrance and began the shooting, we naiively believed it was all part of the show. It wasn't just a terrorist attack, it was a massacre. Dozens of people were shot right infront of me. Pools of blood filled the floor. Cries of grown men who held their girlfriends dead bodies pierced the small music venue. Futures demolished, families heartbroken. in an instant. Shocked and alone, I pretended to be dead for over an hour, lying among people who could see their loved ones motionless.. Holding my breath, trying to not move, not cry - not giving those men the fear they longed to see. I was incredibly lucky to survive. But so many didn't. The people who had been there for the exact same reasons as I - to have a fun friday night were innocent. This world is cruel. And acts like this are suppose to highlight the depravity of humans and the images of those men circuling us like vultures will haunt me for the rest of my life. The way they meticoulsy aimed at shot people around the standing area i was in the centre of without any consideration for human life. It didn't feel real. i expected any moment for someone to say it was just a nightmare. But being a survivor of this horror lets me able to shed light on the heroes. To the man who reassured me and put his life on line to try and cover my brain whilst i whimpered, to the couple whose last words of love kept me believing the good in the world, to the police who succeded in rescuing hundreds of people, to the complete strangers who picked me up from the road and consoled me during the 45 minutes I truly believed the boy i loved was dead, to the injured man who i had mistaken for him and then on my recognition that he was not Amaury, held me and told me everything was going to be fine despite being all alone and scared himself, to the woman who opened her doors to the survivors, to the friend who offered me shelter and went out to buy new clothes so i wouldnt have to wear this blood stained top, to all of you who have sent caring messages of support - you make me believe this world has the potential to be better. to never let this happen again. but most of this is to the 80 people who were murdered inside that venue, who weren't as lucky, who didnt get to wake up today and to all the pain that their friends and families are going through. I am so sorry. There's nothing that will fix the pain. I feel priviledged to be there for their last breaths. And truly beliving that I would join them, I promise that their last thoughts were not on the animals who caused all this. It was thinking of the people they loved. As i lay down in the blood of strangers and waiting for my bullet to end my mere 22 years, I envisioned every face that I have ever loved and whispered I love you. over and over again. reflecting on the highlights of my life. Wishing that those i love knew just how much, wishing that they knew that no matter what happened to me, to keep belieivng in the good in people. to not let those men win. Last night, the lives of many were forever changed and it is up to us to be better people. to live lives that the innocent victims of this tragedy dreamt about but sadly will now never be able to fulfil. RIP angels. You will never be forgotten.

RIP

The West walked into a trap after 9/11 by invading Iraq and getting more involved in the middle-east. These actions have destabalised the region and radicalised more of the middle-eastern and domestic muslim population.
And in response to this attack, we will get yet more military intervention from our leaders.
But the state does win from this - it gains greater powers of control and surveillance and can use fear politically.

Properly got the BBC this terrible situation.

They've even sent Louise Minchin there to stand next to a barrier and a set of traffic lights 😐

I spoke to my friends last night who live on the outskirts of the 9th/10th Arr (we stayed with them last weekend) both are saying there's a quiet unease about the place, more intense than when the CharileH atrocity happened 😕 I do feel for them, normal French city life revolves around eating and drinking in outside cafes

Very very saddened by this.

Just about everyone on FB has gone Tricolour, I don't get it or see what it achieves either. I did however share this from a person I have never met or known

It's a mark of respect and solidarity, it's not about achieving anything or following the herd. Really no different to sharing a story with a pic of a vest on it apart from it's more tasteful.

Don't follow the herd and add the tricolour to your facebook page it means nothing ,neither will prayers

Thanks for the "advice" and excuse me if I chose to ignore. Each to theirnown including praying if you so wish for the victims in Paris and in Beiruit on Thursday especially as the latter faield to generate column inches.

Never understood the need to have news reporters in loco. Adds nothing to the story having Huw Edwards standing outside in Paris desperately trying to fill time with bland statements.

Jon Snow reporting that the two Syrian passports are fakes.

This made a really shit situation even worse..

What?

A democratically elected politician comments on a World event and expresses sympathy for the victims. This has made things worse? How exactly?

Thank you for posting that FunkyDunc. Very moving

One worrying trend I've noticed over the past day is the increase in extreme postings on Facebook. Friends liking and sharing vile drivel from the likes of Britain First etc. I'd never really heard of this lot before. Had a look on their Facebook page...Blimey. I've never seen such vile racism spouted. The worst part is the sometimes hidden underlying racism and general nastiness that they spout. Makes Farage look like Corbyn! All coming from friends who have always seemd like normal, intelegent, well balanced people.

I've even had people sharing Putin speeches...apparently his idea of running a country is the way forward. Sad, sad times.

I'd just assumed lots of people were acting like Alf Garnett in memory of Warren Mitchell. Maybe not...

Thanks FunkyDunc.

Whatever else might shake my view of humanity, my belief in the decency of ordinary human beings will only ever deepen.

Haha! DD.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/107516

FFS 🙄

[img] [/img]

Looking at the geographic breakdown of that petition, it seems people on the isle of Arran have very strong views on immigration... Weird.

Funcy Dunc that piece was very very moving, might I be bold enough to ask where you came across it and who was the author?

As to the atrocities I fear we have only our own governance to blame, if you must wage war in a cowardly fashion video game style via drones and covert methods, you can hardly expect your enemy not to act in a similarly cowardly manner. I really fear for the future, it will not be long before it occurs here again.

I have also 'gone with the herd' on facebook it's just a way of showing empathy, not a bad thing at a time like this some might also judge it as defiance, but I'll go with empathy.

Funcy Dunc that piece was very very moving, might I be bold enough to ask where you came across it and who was the author?

It pops up on Facebook.

Twitter suggesting something akin to retaliation in Raqqa tonight!?

@piemonster, French TV reporting massive French military bombardment of Raqqa. We are watching BFMTV

@monkey France's declaration of a state of emergency means they can shut the border whenever they wish. Talk of border controls being introduced for minimum 3 months. Car stopped in Germany 10 days ago full of AK47's and ammunition with SatNav set to Paris. Some confusion about who the Germans told about this.

[url= http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_round_up/2986289/israel_to_annex_golan_heights_after_billion_barrel_oil_find.html ]http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_round_up/2986289/israel_to_annex_golan_heights_after_billion_barrel_oil_find.html[/url]

The plot thickens

Looking at the geographic breakdown of that petition, it seems people on the isle of Arran have very strong views on immigration... Weird.

It is a bit odd - more gratifyingly, where I live is second-lightest colour. But still depressing there are that many stupid people walking among us.

One worrying trend I've noticed over the past day is the increase in extreme postings on Facebook.

I had one come up on my facebook today that I actually reported. It was a guy saying "I'm going to Blackburn with my shotgun see how they like it", "Have it Muslim bastards" and "I can make my own bombs", however Facebook didn't find these statements as offensive as the female nipple and wouldn't take action. Amazing.

Indeed a worrying time for moderate Muslims. Various commentators suggesting the community should move beyond #NotInMyName postings and arrange a large scale anti terrorist / pro UK/France demonstration in yeh same way we see 10'000's on the streets to protest military intervention. Some very worried German ploticians concerned about further attacks on refugee facilities (there have been a steady stream already prior to the Paris attacks)

@yunki, let's face it the Golan where not going back to Syria anytime in our lifetimes anyway, if ever. Alongside Iran, Syria had been the number one supporter of the Palestinians, that was until they joined the FSA fight against Assad. My understanding of Netanyahu's visit was to finalise details of the compensation / additional support the US has agreed for Israel post the Iranian nuclear deal, I believe this takes the form of an additional $1bn a year for 10 years of military equipment & support. There has been a huge offshore gas find so the Israels are in pretty good shape in terms of fossil fuels at the present time.

let's face it the Golan where not going back to Syria anytime in our lifetimes anyway, if ever.

I am sure you can be even handed here and see both sides like your admirable appeal eh...go on give us some balance..go on lets here it.

So this weekend France bombed some seemingly good-ish quality military targets.

Good ISIS targets seem thin on the ground.

So are bits of ISIS military capacity left untouched in case a western country needs to retaliate for something, or did France bomb nothing of any military value this weekend?

Or was there just less (or no) consideration taken of civilian "collateral damage"? There's 400,000 civilians still trapped in Raqqa.

Good ISIS targets seem thin on the ground.

Am I the only one who sees videos of convoys of ISIS vehicles (Hi-Lux, for some reason) and wishes for the intervention of an A-10 Warthog ?

*thinks*

No.

I wonder if the strenuous efforts that a lot of western Govt. have had recently of stopping people travelling to Syria (the US especially has put massive pressure on Turkey to stop the movement west of the Euphrates) has had the perverse outcome of having young men with extremist views "trapped" in their home countries.

These guys must be ripe for suggestion from IS leaders to stage attacks on civilians, after all they don't need much in the way of training, just give them weaponry, and watch them go...

Despite the outpouring of expressions of community, the Charlie Hebdo murders have provoked and helped some less tolerant elements in France to gain some ground, a recent poll suggested that 30% of the population would support a totalitarian regime if it guaranteed safety, and stopped immigration according to a report I read in Figaro, and that was before the events of this weekend. I think Holland has his work cut out for him, and the revenge bombing is only the start of a French backlash I reckon.

"Why they hate us"

Interesting article well worth a read.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-hate-us-cass-sunstein

I find it really weird that grown men know the actual make and model (or whatever you call it)of vehicles of war,unless its their job to know.

I find it really weird that grown men know the actual make and model (or whatever you call it)of vehicles of war,unless its their job to know.

Possibly, but I saw an item on TV about ISIS predilection for Hi-Lux trucks. Apparently Toyota are not happy with the publicity.

Or was there just less (or no) consideration taken of civilian "collateral damage"? There's 400,000 civilians still trapped in Raqqa.

This was the purpose of the Paris attack. It has been the purpose of all attacks on the West since 9/11.

By provoking "military intervention" in the Middle East, Islamists guarantee themselves a never-ending supply chain of muslims who have been radicalised through having innocent family and friends killed. It's a classic tactic of escalation.

France has responded exactly how ISIS and other radical groups wanted them to respond. It's depressing no Western leaders see this is a trap. More cynically, I'd suggest they use the fear which terrorism breeds to build their own political popularity by sending in the planes.

On Wednesday, we remembered. Dignitaries gathered at the cenotaph, and in homes and shops and offices across the country we sat and quietly remembered those we had lost. We pledged to never forget the lives that had been destroyed - the millions of them in the trenches and gas chambers, the hundreds of thousands of them in endless wars in the desert - and to never repeat the mistakes which had led to such abhorrent tragedy.

"Never forget", we said.

How long is never?

Three days, apparently.

Hollande: "We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless."
Cameron: "We will do whatever we can to help."

Or was there just less (or no) consideration taken of civilian "collateral damage"? There's 400,000 civilians still trapped in Raqqa.

I saw a report somewhere quoting sources in Raqqa hospitals which said no civilians had been brought in injured. That said, ISIS said nobody of theirs was hurt either so take what you will from all that.

France has responded exactly how ISIS and other radical groups wanted them to respond. It's depressing no Western leaders see this is a trap.

Problem is you can't really turn the other cheek. Not only does it show weakness which again will be used as a rallying cry for the extremists, but it is unpalatable to the majority of people who elected you.

Hollande: "We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless."

It really annoys me how a bunch of half-wit criminals can dictate the Foreign Policy of large democracies time and time again and the Western leaders never catch on.

By provoking "military intervention" in the Middle East, Islamists guarantee themselves a never-ending supply chain of muslims who have been radicalised through having innocent family and friends killed. It's a classic tactic of escalation.

And the resulting propaganda radicalises young disenfranchised muslims, feeding a narrative of alienation and persecution, in Bradford, and the suburbs of Paris, Hamburg, and Madrid.

We really do have to be a bit smarter about this