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Some findings from the recent Independent Inquiry into Child Sex Abuse (IICSA)'s report:
* 390 clergy members and other church leaders were convicted of abuse between the 1940s and 2018.
* Yet in 2018 there remained 2,504 safeguarding concerns reported to dioceses about either children or vulnerable adults, and 449 allegations of recent child sexual abuse.
* The Church's failure to respond consistently to victims and survivors of abuse often added to their trauma.
* The alleged perpetrators were often given more support than victims.
* Within the Church in Wales, there were simply not enough safeguarding officers to carry out the volume of work required of them. Record-keeping was found to be almost non-existent and of little use in trying to understand past safeguarding issues.
If the C of E was recognised as a cult or child paedophile ring, it would be shut down. The extent of the harm it's responsible for is staggering. Surely it must be held accountable and action taken against its right to continue as a religious organisation? You'd think!
Child abuse being rife in the church?! It's been pretty common knowledge for years - I await a similar enquiry into the catholic church as well. I'd imagine that will be far worse.
Alas it’s not that much of a surprise. The church never seems to take any action when these scandals emerge so why would it stop
The shocking thing about the report is that precisely no one was surprised by its findings.
If the C of E was recognised as a cult or child paedophile ring
It is by plenty of people. At the very least it's a cult. Unfortunately it's a useful cult that helps keep the working classes in line so it gets given a lot of leeway by our overlords.
Perhaps queenie should get involved as the head of the c of e or do we take her inaction as a passive acceptance of the situation
At the very least it’s a cult. Unfortunately it’s a useful cult that helps keep the working classes in line so it gets given a lot of leeway by our overlords.
If you knew anything about any organised religion, you would know that comment is 100% bollocks.
Got any evidence - you know, facts - to support your ridiculous assertion?
Saddens me to say this would’ve only been shocking if nothing had happened.
At the very least it’s a cult. Unfortunately it’s a useful cult that helps keep the working classes in line so it gets given a lot of leeway by our overlords.
The 1670's called.
@chrismac That's a great idea. She's a bit old for the job now though, perhaps one of her sons could do it?
Charles is busy being heir to the throne, but I'm sure Prince Andrew would be keen to get involved in something so worthy...
Got any evidence – you know, facts – to support your ridiculous assertion?
Do you have any evidence - you know, facts - to show that his assertion is ridiculous?
I appear to have hit a nerve. I apologise for that, perhaps my post was overly brash. But since you retorted quite... aggressively... let's delve a bit deeper.
Got any evidence – you know, facts – to support your ridiculous assertion?
Assuming you are Christian, do you have any evidence - you know, facts - to support the contrary? Or perhaps the assertion that there is a god?
It's hardly a new idea:
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."
-Napoleon Bonapart.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Back to you.
Wow - from child abuse to Napoleon in 11 posts - pretty impressive!
All the Church go-ers I know are nice middle-class types with nice houses and nice cars.
The lower classes worship Westfield and Costa now.
As for child abuse in the Church - delete the word Church and insert ANY club/society/sport/school where children are involved.
390 clergy members and other church leaders were convicted of abuse between the 1940s and 2018.
I wonder what the figures would be if you looked at any similar sized organization over the same length of time?
All the Church go-ers I know are nice middle-class types with nice houses and nice cars.
Yeah, me too, although most of the people I know socially fit that mould. But all those people are also working class in the socialist sense that they are the means of production. One of the greatest tricks of our leaders is to make us believe that we're not working class. And then get us to blame our problems on people who in reality are much closer peers to us than we would like to believe. On a scale of dole --> billionaire, my wealth is far closer to the low end of the spectrum, and I'm one of the lucky ones.
Assuming you are Christian, do you have any evidence – you know, facts – to support the assertion that there is a god?
But you haven't provided any facts to back your original assertion.
You said the church is a cult and an instrument of repression.
What evidence do you base that assertion upon? It might be useful context to the broader and more frightening themes of this thread.
If the C of E was recognised as a cult or child paedophile ring
I guess that is can only help that 26 Anglian Bishops are given automatic seats in the House of Lords. Must smooth things over quite a bit with pesky irritations like the law.
Any religion is (or was) basically a cult. We’ve just decided to accept some of them over a long period of time and laugh at or deride new ones (and really old ones) for being a bit silly.
What evidence do you base that assertion upon? It might be useful context to the broader and more frightening themes of this thread.
Start with the crusades and go forward right up to Ireland at the end of the last century. For starters.
Oppressive regime used to provide a lavish lifestyle for it's top dogs.
Organised religion should be outlawed.
Over that time frame I would imagine that most other big organisations will have had similar levels of arrests, reports, and failings.
I'm not religious and not trying to make any excuses, but local authorities, education and social services, the BBC, sports organisations and, God help me, the Scout Association are all going to be at the wrong end of these kind of headlines. All of them with legal/moral codes that should have been stamping it out at the first sign of a problem but never did.
Trying to drag this back on topic, there is nothing shocking about those finds, it'd be more surprising if there wasn't any.
Imo, all modern religions exist to manipulate people, just looking at the way the Bible has been rewritten over the last 2k years to form new perspectives braised on the current beliefs. Unfortunately with religions, ultimately man is the creator (not 'god') and manipulator of them, and as such positions of power become available. With the power comes the corruption and misuse.
Now that the church of England is falling in numbers and subsequently in wealth and loosing its power, what's it (finally) going to do about the internal corruption, something or nothing?
Trying to drag this back on topic, there is nothing shocking about those finds, it’d be more surprising if there wasn’t any.
Much more succinct than I managed.
This thread will no doubt revert to being an anti-religious echo chamber due to the Crusades, Ireland and the Middle East, but if we shut down all religions, round here we'd lose pretty much all the foodbanks, including quite a few new ones that have only existed/been needed since Covid, plus a lot of valuable pre-school and family support facilities and youth groups.
Somewhere between mythical sainthood and past (and current) horrors lies a sensible middle ground that does a huge amount of good for local and national causes.
This thread will no doubt revert to being an anti-religious echo chamber due to the Crusades, Ireland and the Middle East, but if we shut down all religions, round here we’d lose pretty much all the foodbanks, including quite a few new ones that have only existed/been needed since Covid, plus a lot of valuable pre-school and family support facilities and youth groups.
Why ?
Do people need god to be nice people. If the food bank or youth group shut down because religion was banned then the folk running it aren't exactly Christian are they ?
Or are they holding people to ransom in order to promote god ?
I used to go out with a girl whose Dad was a vicar and she was pretty sure he was into boys. So that must mean they're all at it...
if we shut down all religions, round here we’d lose pretty much all the foodbanks, including quite a few new ones that have only existed/been needed since Covid, plus a lot of valuable pre-school and family support facilities and youth groups.
But those things are either job of the state, or exist purely because society is failing (or repressing) the people. The people who need food banks are in that position because of the insane wealth disparity we have - the fact that we even need food banks is the real story here (although FWIW the food banks I've seen around here are run by Labour).
I wasn't saying that religion is entirely bad, but when people think food banks and family support are the responsibility of religious groups, it's clear to me that religion is a being used as a tool to maintain the status quo. No wonder there are tax breaks and legal loopholes that allow religions to prosper.
See - no mention of wars in the name of religion (although they're good for business too).
and youth groups.
Less of them should be on the agenda!
The shocking thing about the report is that precisely no one was surprised by its findings.
Yep, exactly as expected.
if we shut down all religions, round here we’d lose pretty much all the foodbanks,
Largest foodbank network in the UK is the Trussel Trust....
This thread will no doubt revert to being an anti-religious echo chamber
To be fair, they don't need any help promoting anti-religious sentiment, their current behaviour does it for them....
Trying to drag this back on topic, there is nothing shocking about those finds, it’d be more surprising if there wasn’t any.
Saved me posting. Ah...
Largest foodbank network in the UK is the Trussel Trust….
You know they're founded on Christian principles, right?
For me, there's plenty of evidence worldwide that some despicable people have used the church to abuse people. And that in many, many cases, the church IS complicit in that abuse by choosing to ignore it or even cover it up. Obviously this kind of stuff does happen in other organisations but I think the church is more vulnerable to exploitation because of the extensive influence it has over people. And then more likely to cover it up because of the impact.
ON the wider discussion, I'm of the view that religion does plenty of good for people around the world. And there's plenty of bad as well. Religion seems to be to be fairly inevitable in society, thus the best we can do is acknowledge the positive aspects whilst controlling the negative ones.
T hus the best we can do is acknowledge the positive aspects whilst controlling the negative ones.
Inquisition? Crusades?
Should sequester a few billion from their investment funds to pay for Covid recovery.
You know they’re founded on Christian principles, right?
You mean supporting people who need help, being an active member of society, not expecting anything back for your efforts. I don't think they are exclusively Christian, I think there plenty of other religions who sign up to these basic human concepts, Islam for example, and lots of atheists. It's not the helping others bit that's the problem, its the attaching them to your profoundly held beliefs that defy logic where it all becomes a bit unstuck, not to mention the them and us mentality promoted by nearly all religions.
People can be altruistic without needing imaginary being a to tell them.
I'd also poimt that more than 50% of child abuse is commited within the extended family* - easy to jump on these shocking headlines, but pointing out the problems with the C of E, or Catholic church, or football clubs or Scouts distracts from the wider and endemic nature of the problem. It's as likely to be an uncle or grandad as it is a vicar, but we're not so comfortable pointing the finger there.
*Source - MrsMC who has spent 25 years working at the sharp pointy end of child protection.
The COE is only one aspect of this report and shouldn't really be singled out. Want to blame anyone blame the police for refusing to act on reports.
You mean supporting people who need help, being an active member of society, not expecting anything back for your efforts. I don’t think they are exclusively Christian, I think there plenty of other religions who sign up to these basic human concepts, Islam for example, and lots of atheists.
No, I mean that's literally a part of their mission statement, if you look on their website. But yep, they are a multi-faith (and no faith) organisation, which is great, we need more stuff like that. Personally I think it's OK to recognise these things as being assisted by religion, as opposed to proclaiming that they're impossible without religious input. As you say, they draw on basic human emotions and drives. I just think that the structure of religion can provide a conduit for that kind of activity.
Inquisition? Crusades?
I don't think dubya describing the waar on terr as a Crusade was particularly helpful. But wouldn't you say there has been progress in NI on sectarianism over the last few decades? Cultural progress on abortion, same sex marriage? Look at Poland FFS, that's what we should be pointing out as unacceptable.
but if we shut down all religions, round here we’d lose pretty much all the foodbanks,
Abuse children and repent by opening a food bank? Doesn't seem like a price worth paying...
You know they’re founded on Christian principles, right?
Yes, but they skipped the whole organised paedophilia bit...
Abuse children and repent by opening a food bank? Doesn’t seem like a price worth paying…
Not what my comment was meant to suggest. That was in response to the "all religions are evil and must be stopped" line that some were taking. As several of us have been trying to get across, not all aspects of religion are evil, and child abuse is an issue for many non religious groups as well.
In no way do I think that gets the CofE of the hook, but I don't remember a thread being started when this enquiry highlighted the systemic failures in Nottingham City and County Councils when the interim report into abuse in their children's homes was released.
Given the subject is the evil of religion I thought I was on topic, but I'm not getting into it further than that. I've only been on this forum a short time and have become a target for some already so crack on, I'll observe.
Given the subject is the evil of religion I thought I was on topic
Actually I think the topic is the evil of some people within the organisation.
In no way do I think that gets the CofE of the hook, but I don’t remember a thread being started when this enquiry highlighted the systemic failures in Nottingham City and County Councils when the interim report into abuse in their .children’s homes was released.
Start a thread about it then.
I’ve only been on this forum a short time and have become a target for some already so crack on, I’ll observe.
@brads it was a polite heads up from a moderator.
Religion isn’t bad. Some people are just absolute bastards. If it wasn’t religion they used as an excuse it would be something else. I agree that in some cases it can sadly help enable these people as they are in positions of absolute trust or power. Not at all dissimilar to the scouts and other clubs mentioned.
The crusades gets mentioned a lot. Even back then another excuse would’ve easily been drummed up for the whole thing. People don’t need religion to act like complete ****s. It’s just an easy peg to hang shit behaviour on.
I’ll caveat the above by mentioning I think all religions are completely daft.
somewhatslightlydazed
Free MemberI wonder what the figures would be if you looked at any similar sized organization over the same length of time?
Interesting question but it's the coverups and acceptance of abuse that's the real concern, rather than the incidence. As soon as you decide to allow an abuser to continue their abuse, you are an accomplice.
And of course, this is the church- an organisation not shy of moralising In fact, they have representatives in the house of lords to further said moralising. Chose not to get their own house in order for generations but were always keen on telling other people where not to put it. Same sex relationships are wrong, unless cough it's a priest and a child in which case, crack on. So to speak.
We had a chap found guilty of sexual offences a while back, we got a bit of flak over it but basically it led to a succesful prosecution because the uni went "**** that" and did everything we could to get the bastard. The it turned out that he'd left another university with a confidentiality deal after a similar complaint, and that he was kicked out of seminary for yet another similar complaint.
If any of the organisations that had previously caught this particular guy had acted appropriately, then less young people would have been harmed. That makes them complicit. Same with the church. You're not just "tolerating" it, you're enabling it and encouraging it.
If any of the organisations that had previously caught this particular guy had acted appropriately, then less young people would have been harmed. That makes them complicit
The exact same thing can be said of councils, youth groups, sports clubs etc. All of the failings in this report have been identified in these type of groups as well.
It’s about time some of the senior management of the CoE were prosecuted for negligence ...
However as the Catholic Church also seem to have managed to evade kiddie fiddling on a grand scale , I doubt it will ever happen.