[Closed] ShhhhhhSh.. I think the Remainers have finally cried themselves to sleep

not handcuffed to the corpse that is the EU

Jamba, I respect your position as an exiter and you're not an unreasonable person, but all I tend to hear from exiters is soundbites like this.

I'll try you because the OP won't/can't answer.

With recourse to facts and reasoned argument, not emotive soundbites or proven lies, what have the Brexiters won, and why is it better for the country?

And Dorothy Perkins. Do'h 45 seconds late

Un elected in Luxembourg? As opposed to the publicly elected PM we now have in number 10? Oh, wait……
Plan for us remains the same: moving into our new house by the end of the month, do the small amount of work that needs doing (with cash, not credit), then batten down the hatches and watch. I’m sure by then the ‘winners’ will have formulated a plan and be implementing it with panache 🙄

But Jamba; we've already established that your political knowledge is woefully blinkered at best, so you really, really aren't the person to be commentating on what might or might not happen in the future.

"I am very optimistic for the future facing the world"

Se please explain, how, in an increasingly right-wing society, with social divisions widening every day, Brexit is going to be a good thing?

what have the Brexiters won

Apparently

[img] [/img]

NZ my point wouod be no one ever voted for Masstricht and Lisbon Treaties, we should have had a binding Referendum then as we'd have never been in this mess. The Dutch people have called time on their government deciding on their behalf, all treaties now require Referendum support.

@spawn that's exactly how I see Remainers blind to the implosion which the EU is facing. As I posted on the otehr thread Remainers are looking at the short term and ignoring the medium and long term economic prospects of the EU

That's an amusing assumption as i've been thinking long term since way before the referendum result and i'm verhermentaly remain

There's a lot of short/medium term discusion at the moment because of the monumental f*cktardary of how this has all been handled. The long term benefits for leaving are now much longer in the future because of the short-term shit that's been pooped right on to us

FT 250 is a better reflection of the domestic economy than the FT 100.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that's the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

Ha, good try but no. If that were true, this area (North Glasgow, a poor area) would've voted Leave. It didn't, it voted strongly to remain in the EU.

What's useful is that Philip Hammond has now clarified that the only way that Scotland can stay in the EU is by being independent. Theresa May saying she "loves the Union" is, well, nice but pointless - Scots don't love her, so why should we listen?

There are people I know on bike trade forums who voted Leave - but ask them what they expect will be the benefits and it all gets very wishy-washy. "Take back control" but no idea what EU laws and regulations they really want to get rid of. Like much of the Leave vote in England, I think it's more an anti-establishment reaction than anything, kicking out in any way they can without really thinking through the consequences. Understandable, really.

Greed being prioritised over principles.

Or perhaps just facts being prioritised over emotions?

As Arron Banks, founder of Leave.EU explained: [i]"The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn't work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. [b]It's the Trump success.[/b]"[/i] 😯

Money doesn't enter into it. It's all about people working together and going forward.
Celebrating what we have in common. These people are 22 miles away not some baying horde the other side of the Urals.
I've met some foreigners ,they were quite nice.

Clodhopper, we're on the same side. If all the remainers do nothing (why would they) and the brexitards don't do something (and given they don't have a plan for anything yet) then we aren't leaving...

Hence why I'm doing nothing.

I'm tired of it all, I'll be honest, I'm resigned to tightening my belt, saving as much as I can, and in the most part trying to ignore the whole situation. It's bloody ridiculous.

The leave voters I've spoken to have done nothing to dispel my beliefs about them, one, a close, well educated surveyor friend just keeps saying "we're better off out, it'll all be alright, it'll be a rough couple of years, but it'll all sort itself out, we'll look back and wonder what all the fuss was about etc". Nothing quantitative, nothing factual, not even any real opinion, just some misheld beliefs that what Nige and Boris said was true, and we can somehow function better outside of 'the system'.

A friend's brother, a mountain biker unfortunately, of whose intellect I had no prior knowledge stated to me last week that "we need to stop all these polish and eastern European immigrants, they're all rapists, murderers and scroungers, they don't contribute anything." Right.......... I couldn't be arsed to tell him that of the 300 new houses/flats being built locally that I'm overseeing most of the private sales are going to Polish people, who clearly save well and are able to get mortgages. Scrounging bastards, buying houses, keeping people in work, how dare they.

Yesterday I had a conversation with some retired customers, asking if I was busy I told them we're very busy, almost too busy in fact, there's a lot of building going on, and lots in the pipeline, confidence seems to have come back and people are spending money, or at least were. The conversation shifted to the EU, the lady stated "we're better off out, we can't be any worse than it is, there's nothing happening, it'll be a chaotic year or two then it'll settle down and all be fine". No thought at all that all that building I'd just mentioned had arisen from a pre brexit (I bloody hate that term) economy, none at all, it was if she thought it was as a result of the leave vote. In any case, if we do leave the EU in the fashion it looks most likely, most of the drawbacks of EU membership without most of the benefits, I reckon she'll be dead by the time it all sorts itself out. Still, she'll live out her years on her pension in her fully paid for country cottage retirement house blissfully.

So there we are, my opinion of leavers is/was that they are made up of the ill-informed, elderly, mislead, racist/zenophobic, unintelligent, and plain ignorant members of society. So far I'm seeing little to counter that.

So many have said to me that they didn't think it would actually happen, and they'd now vote differently, they were on the fence/undecided, but voted leave as it seemed right in their gut. It's tragic that neither campaign actually educated or informed the populous, instead just spouting bullshit, they all should pay for that, whichever side they were on.

Edit: I forgot the builder/developer who said "We don't wanna be ruled by Nazi's, we didn't fight two ****ing world wards to have them tell us what to do, we're better off out, you should see the wounds my granddad had". When I suggested it might make it harder to sell the houses he's currently building it was shrugged off with no actual regard for how the economy work in the form of some grunts and swearing.

Also heard a guy on the radio this morning saying he thought it'd make house prices cheaper, helping your average Joe, but he hadn't really considered that it might also be harder to get a mortgage.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that's the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain.

At least you tried on that one. Massive swing and a miss though

You realise this is all about finance? every bit of it. Doesn't matter if you're middle class or not, this affects every single person in the UK financially

Greed being prioritised over principles.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that's the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

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You can shove those principles up your arse...

what have the Brexiters won, and why is it better for the country?

Ability to determine our own future, the primacy of our democracy. This cannot be understated, the EU is totally unwieldy with 28 members all wanting their say.
Removing ourselves from a project to create a superstate of Europe (including creating and funding an EU Army), one which is most certainly not in our interests
Ability to look towards the dynamic regions of growth in the world without being held back by EU vested interests
Unshackled from the EU budget which will only have made increasing demands on us (we do face a risk of material increases in next 2-3 years unfortunately)
Ability to control immigration in terms of the quality of people we take, we can use this as a very positive tool in our trade discussions with India and China in particular.

@tom - we are leaving our Government is responsible for taking action. Artcile 50 will be triggered well before the 2020 election. Johnson, Davies and Fox's appointments show May is serious about Brexit and she herself is extremely eurosceptic and imo only campaigned in a token fashion for Remain out of loyalty to Cameron.

Ability to determine our own future, the primacy of our democracy. This cannot be understated, the EU is totally unwieldy with 28 members all wanting their say.
Removing ourselves from a project to create a superstate of Europe (including creating and funding an EU Army), one which is most certainly not in our interests
Ability to look towards the dynamic regions of growth in the world without being held back by EU vested interests
Unshackled from the EU budget which will only have made increasing demands on us (we do face a risk of material increases in next 2-3 years unfortunately)
Ability to control immigration in terms of the quality of people we take, we can use this as a very positive tool in our trade discussions with India and China in particular.

Each of these claims would require examination. ie "our own future"? It would seem that our future is determined by a right-wing elite from the home counties, and that EU legislation afforded some protection to the workers, the poor and the vulnerable.

Anyway at least you had the decency to respond to my question with courtesy and reason. So thank you.

"Ability to determine our own future, the primacy of our democracy."

So, handing more power to unelected elites.

"Removing ourselves from a project to create a superstate of Europe (including creating and funding an EU Army), one which is most certainly not in our interests"

An idea which came from a desire to not have to ever suffer the horrors of Nazism in Europe again, by pooling military resources and imposing restrictions and controls on potentially belligerent states. Given how much you bang on about 'anti-Semitism (in the Labour party), and given the massive rise in far-right extremism across Europe, I'm really surprised at your views regarding this.

"Ability to look towards the dynamic regions of growth in the world without being held back by EU vested interests"

So leaving a powerful market with huge bargaining power, to fending for ourselves as an economicaly much weaker entity will help here?

"Unshackled from the EU budget which will only have made increasing demands on us "

A budget which actually benefitted many parts of the country, such as Cornwall and Wales, who will no longer receive such support.

"Ability to control immigration in terms of the quality of people we take"

'Quality' of people? WTF does that mean? And anyway; weren't we actually getting some bloody good 'quality' people in anyway?

So, now that all your claims have effectively been countered, what else have you got?

Some thoughts from the bloke who has just been given the job to sort it all out:
[url= http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/07/david-davis-trade-deals-tax-cuts-and-taking-time-before-triggering-article-50-a-brexit-economic-strategy-for-britain.html ]David Davis[/url]

Johnson, Davies and Fox's appointments show May is serious about Brexit and she herself is extremely eurosceptic

That's one way of looking at it!

*Johnson-esque guffaw*

If she was serious about Brexit, she would be triggering article 50 now, and taking the job on herself, not saying to the brexitii 'you want it, sort it' where if they fail, she can shift the blame, saying she did all she could by appointing he most dedicated to the cause (if you believe bojo was eurosceptic, rather than just the other side of the Bulingdon club debate team to Cameron...)

we are leaving our Government is responsible for taking action.

-Boris Johnson & Nigel Farage

(Except it didn't really pan out for Boris...)

I don't get the hoohaar about this mystical "EU army". Despite being mostly fictional, it actually sounds like an excellent idea to me; we only get involved in military actions in coalitions anyway (look what happened when we ignored everyone else, that went down well then didn't it!), we're always training together anyway and there is a huge benefit from consolidation in the armed forces - large projects such as ships and planes are almost always done multinationally anyway.

Sounds ideal to me.

**** off, no we don't. I will make sure that I'm ok, you need to come up with a feasible proposal as to how this might work.

unfortunately this

The people who voted for brexit will be the hardest hit. I'll be ok. In years gone by I would have felt sympathy for them. Now I no longer care if they have to sleep in the bed they shat in.

clodhopper - you did not 'effectively counter' jambalaya's claims. You merely strung together a few words after each of his valid points. Your powers of reasoning are weak.

clodhopper - you did not 'effectively counter' jambalaya's claims. You merely strung together a few words after each of his valid points. Your powers of reasoning are weak.

At least those two posters attempted a reasoned debate. All you seem to do is throw abuse around.

Where are your valid points thebees? Or are you just going to wait for someone else to do it for you (deva vue much?)

clodhopper - you did not 'effectively counter' jambalaya's claims

No I did, and they're not actually my own ideas tbh; mostly stuff worked out by people much cleverrer than me, so I can't take credit I'm afraid.

"Your powers of reasoning are weak."

You voted Leave, are gloating about Brexit, yet have so far offered absolutely nothing in the way of an idea of the next step, and you're criticising [i]my[/i] reasoning?

😆

At least clodhopper and jamba are prepared to debate it, thebees.

You seem to be here to ShhhhhhSh any Remainers just in case they turn out to be right.

Ability to determine our own future, the primacy of our democracy.

So TomW1967; you'd move from a country facing economic uncertainty but still with relative social stability, to one already mired in increasing economic failure, increasing inequality and social division, and increasing fear amongst it's population? I suppose you'd be relatively wealthy, so could afford health insurance etc, but can you 100% guarantee your economic future in a rapidly changing global market?

Yes, we're used to social uncertainty as my wife is foreign and Theresa May brought in the earning rules for marriage visas just as both of us finished university. As of yet, despite US citizens managing to kill each other on a fairly regular basis - they have yet to introduce financial requirements like ours - for spouses.

In the US, we can buy our way into being above the social divisions. For me, in science - and for my wife in finance, the US is simply a much better place to be. My career would pay almost three times more and if I go down the academic route - funding is better.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that's the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

The people who voted for brexit will be the hardest hit.

Apart from the old people who will sit there securely until they die.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that's the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

I thought leavers were the greedy ones tbh, as they didn't like all these foreigners taking their money.

Why should I give a **** about you and the working classes problems? You lot showed the world how greedy you are, why should we care about you?

"In the US, we can buy our way into being above the social divisions. For me, in science - and for my wife in finance, the US is simply a much better place to be. My career would pay almost three times more and if I go down the academic route - funding is better."

So you'd enjoy security yet others around you would face increasing insecurity?

Not sure why you'd want to live in such a society. Sounds like my idea of hell.

I stated earlier what my protectionist Stat Egypt was going to be- doing a quick count up of investment that I won't be making comes to over £400k this year that will not end up in other people's pockets (and associated tax take)- now I am hardly what you would class as well off but I am typical of the economy's "fuel" in as much as my net contribution is substantial - I am this country's problem right now - no confidence

Thinking of replying to the OP..?
[img] [/img]

Yup, leavers convinced me that people are tribalistic self centered cock bags who are only out for themselves. The funny thing is though, it's people like me and my wife who are best able to adapt to this new scenario.

Enjoy your brave new world.

I thought leavers were the greedy ones tbh, as they didn't like all these foreigners taking their money.

Yeah! Like, err, Wales! And South Yorkshire!! Theiving foreigners!!!

Just dishing out some of the insulting shit that remainers find such fun.
hebdenbridgecyclist - hang in there pal, your demands for a response are being given the respect they are due.

Insulting? Where?

BigButSlimmerBloke -'dance like no-ones watching' is my giftshop message straight back at ya !

Why are people bothering to reply to this troll?

The statements are designed to get a rise and nothing more. They contain nothing of value.

By not replying, nothing of value was lost.

[img] [/img]

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal). Maybe that's the big difference, you needed to have a middle class mindset to vote remain. Greed being prioritised over principles.

As opposed to what? some arbitrary concept of control, a freedom to have bendy bananas? In my area most good legislation came from Europe, the UK spent lots of time arguing for worse positions despite the UK industry broadly supporting the EU stance. I'm ok with mobility within the EU all of the people I met were working and productive, far more so than their UK compatriots who've had all the advantages of our education and health systems and speak English as their 1st language. I think our reluctance to accept more refugees stinks and the leave vote has empowered a nasty right wing racist element to the detriment of the whole country.

So don't confuse the responses where people responded to financial shit storm caused by a leave vote with financial reactions in their personal life.

Just dishing out some of the insulting shit that remainers find such fun.

The entire thread is a troll to increase divisions without adding anything to the discussion. Not really something to be proud of. 😕

In fact: Can the mods just delete this thread? There's nothing knew on here that isn't being discussed in the million and one other Brexit threads and the OP is just the fattest troll you have ever seen.

Remainers all seem to be a bit fixated on finance (national and personal).

No - I'm fixated on keeping my family in food and shelter. Working in the construction industry, after 8 years of being in the duldrums, things were starting to look up again.
Now? Who knows.....

I've got plenty of other irresistible thread titles to follow 😀

But really not enough of a brain to see you have shot yourself in the foot.. Sad really.

Now? Who knows.....

Indeed....that is the where we are, but hey lets not get too down and over dramatic, we may find in a few years the rest of the eu looking at us in envy.

Stranger things have happened!

This thread is like:

[img] [/img]

😆

' I'm fixated on keeping my family in food and shelter.'
You take the biscuit for melodramatic tosh. At least be honest with yourself and admit that day to day life goes on as before.

I've got plenty of other irresistible thread titles to follow

to take the op at face value rather than dismiss him as a simple troll i had not noticed that the remain campaign had gone quiet , on every forum and newspaper the remainers still appear to be protesting ,aside from a predictable couple on here it is the leavers who have gone quite as the paucity of their position is exposed and the prospect of an early or any article 50 was receding.

I still have to hear any plan for leave that goes beyond a vague statement of wishful thinking.

interesting to see expectations of the cost of hiring in the talent for the leave negotiations will be circa £250 million a week roughly the same as we pay to be in the club but with none of the benefits.

Just dishing out some of the insulting shit that remainers find such fun.
...
I've got plenty of other irresistible thread titles to follow 😀

[img] [/img]

Well I'm waiting to see what plan the new bunch come up with. The deckchair-shuffling won't go on for long, and someone is going to have to say something meaningful soon enough. So far it's just waffle and wishful thinking along the lines of Boris' infamous suicide note just after the vote.

@thebees

Hi Fred!

You take the biscuit for melodramatic tosh. At least be honest with yourself and admit that day to day life goes on as before.

Not really, with the pound tanking against he dollar imports are going to become more expensive, there is a loss of confidence in businesses which is likely to result in a drop in productivity leading to job losses, there won't be significant new job creation (outside a very niche market for EU law and trade negotiation experts). Even Jamba, who is positive long term, has said that there will be short term impacts.

to take the op at face value rather than dismiss him as a simple troll i had not noticed that the remain campaign had gone quiet , on every forum and newspaper the remainers still appear to be protesting ,aside from a predictable couple on here it is the leavers who have gone quite....

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jul/12/how-technology-disrupted-the-truth ]How technology disrupted the truth[/url]

The OP, sadly, remains a troll and should not be fed.

whilst i pretty much disagree with everything jamba has written about brexit, at least he's thought his opinions through and sticks to his arguements(1).
I'd be fine with the way the referendum ended up if everyone who voted leave had done that. But they didn't and now we're stuck with bellowing anuses and the "we won, shut up" claptrap

[i](1) You're wrong Jamba, but you're entitiled to that wrong opinion, even if it is wrong. Oh and you're wrong(2) 😉
(2) If in ten years(3) you're right i'll admit i was wrong.
(3) No way is this shit sorted in five years like some are banging on about(4).
(4)I may be wrong(5).
(5)I'm probably not[/i]

Hello thebees,

Clearly your not watching the news nor interested in Politics otherwise you'd know what's going on with the Remain resurgence.

Good troll attempt though.

But, really, try harder (as maybe you should have done at school)

pondo i know the theory/reality you refer to and it does in many ways explain lots of polarised strongly held views particularly with right wing religious views hard core socialist worker views and climate change ,
i hope my social media circle is slightly more diverse as it also includes things like my home towns social group , massive group of ukippers and racists, my ex school mates edited out the blatant racists but kept the ukippers (not all ukippers are out and out racist)
However i was also thinking of the press and comments sections.

you're not your. They taught me that at school, along with punctuation.

They taught me that at school, along with punctuation.

But not manners by the looks of it

Or punctuation.

I have a plan, apply for an Irish passport so i have easier options.
Then sit back and save my money so i have a safety net.

As for enacting Brexit, a ****ing stupid idea, which i will do nothing to help.

How many new hospitals have we got? What is the current immigration stats? What is the current level of racial abuse? What is your plan to deal with these Brexit promises?

' I'm fixated on keeping my family in food and shelter.'
You take the biscuit for melodramatic tosh. At least be honest with yourself and admit that day to day life goes on as before.

I already lost my job by in April thanks to Brexit - my wifes entire industry is at risk. If both of us lost our jobs - thanks to your anti-immigrant lot, we would literally be half a world away from each other, she would be sent home.

Screw you and your "it'll be okay" optimism. Toying with other peoples lives, and if you think America has social strife, you should see my wifes country. She and I are used to it, what is important for both of us is economic stability and earnings so that we can help her cousins escape poverty.

As the descendant of a Hungarian Jew who fled Hungary in the interwar years, because he married a gypsy (like marrying a black girl in the 19th century deep south), and Spanish, Icelandic and Roma individuals - who all fought for Britain during the war - I hold no loyalty to my country anymore - just individuals. The United Kingdom has repeatedly treated those who contribute to the greatness of their country like shit (eg the Poles).

Unlike some lazy Sunderland Brexiters who can't even be bothered to move out of their own county, we aren't going to complain that much - instead we are going to get up off our arses and move to a new country to gain the economic stability that we seek.

Yet you'd be happy to move to a country which treats it's indigenous people like...

Extremely hypocritical. You talk about how people have been treated, yet you're happy to adopt a 'we're alright jack' mentality yourself. 🙄

I am now 🙂 I voted labour the last two elections. Never again.

You lot hastened my slow inexorable descent into rabid libertarianism.

thanks to your anti-immigrant lot, we would literally be half a world away from each other, she would be sent home.

Or she could just go to France? Or are you saying that the whole of the EU has rules that would prevent your wife staying without a job? In which case why pick on the UK?

Shes not an EU citizen.

But yes, in France if you marry a foreigner you don't have to prove how much you are earning.

I have everything to lose and nothing to gain, so yes - we have an exit plan. It's common bloody sense.

I have worked and run business since 1979 I think in those 36 years I was on the end of a recession for at least 18 years, so the final 10 years of my working life (I am lucky as I have good pensions due to hard work and doing without) will also be in recession - so I in total I have spent 60% of my working life in the shit yet still managed to progress? Like many others in my position I am sick of it.

Yet you'd be happy to move to a country which treats it's indigenous people like...
Extremely hypocritical. You talk about how people have been treated, yet you're happy to adopt a 'we're alright jack' mentality yourself.

I know this was aimed at tom but, yes. Sadly the UK that I thought I knew has shown itself to be a shallower less caring place, the people have spoken and I don't like what they say. I see no real reason to support the ignorant 'majority' who have shot themselves in the foot as in doing so they have impacted on my families outlook too. Will I leave, probably not immediately, but my ties are significantly weakened. Matthew Paris summed it up in this quote.

Over the last few months a poison has been seeping through our national life. My faith in my fellow English, in democracy and in those who serve it in high places led me to wholly underestimate it's potency and its capacity to spread.

"You just don't get it do you?" Brexiteers have crowed to me "You're out of touch." They're right, I was. I did not know my own country, I do now. And I like it a little bit less.

But yes, in France if you marry a foreigner you don't have to prove how much you are earning.

So you can't go to France, and her stay in France with you, because you're not a French National?

Underestimating the SME community in the UK is a very dangerous thing, they are the ones that create jobs and pay the tax. On the whole they are not happy at the moment

Are you on drugs? She's not a French national, nor am I. Why would we move to France - to a country where we don't speak the language that has worse biotech prospects than either the United Kingdom or the US and is more likely to vote in Marine Le Pen (an actual fascist) than the Americans are Trump?

The US is a safe bet for both of our careers.

Underestimating the SME community in the UK is a very dangerous thing, they are the ones that create jobs and pay the tax. On the whole they are not happy at the moment

Oddly, according to the ACT more than 60% of LBS owners voted Leave. But I've always said that the bike industry is quite right-wing.

you're not your. They taught me that at school, along with punctuation.

They seem to have neglected to teach you that sentences should start with a capital letter.