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Away and don't talk pish.Your problem is that you're almost certainly an underachiever who feels intimidated by a superior intellect and anyone who is clearly more successful in life than you are. You're using this whole debate as a way to try and compensate for that; in some strange way, you're demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.
There are now going to be huge claims for compo, loss of career prospects, failed relationships etc going to come out of this alledged abuse, to make a caseand some sympathy from those around them, just no touching.
Thing is once any sort of abuse is mention it sticks to the one whos seen as the perpetrator, even though they where totally innocent.
I don't think this applies to the rich and powerfull.Thing is once any sort of abuse is mention it sticks to the one whos seen as the perpetrator, even though they where totally innocent.
You're very right. I score very low on 'politeness' even though I am very compassionate so I temd to favour 'raw truth' over sugar coated diplomacy.
Tinder Profile: "I tell it straight!"
I guess the blanket ban is there just to remove any grey areas
Reminiscent of when there was the hysteria about child abuse and it got to such an extent that teachers and school staff wouldn't give kids a hug when they fell over in the playground or were crying and upset.
It's strange and somewhat at odds with the prevalance of hugs all round that seemed to permeate every social interaction awhile back (something that I always felt uncomfotable with and did my best to avoid participating in ).
In the past as a line manager in interviews with staff I have on occasion put my hand on their forearm,both male and female to reassure them when they were clearly distressed supplemented with me asking if they wanted me to get someone to come and give them some support.Also having been on the scene when helping people who have had falls or incidents in the street holding their hand or forearm for reassurance until the emergency services arrive feels like a natural thing to do.
I never send suggestive texts to anyone afterwards though!
I blame Adam Sandler.
Checkout girl in sainsburies just touched my hand! Fortunately she was hot, does my casual sexism cancel out her touching me?
Goddamn Adam Sandler, he’s so kneedy 😉
I'm far from being politically correct but I would / have never touched a female colleague other than shaking hands etc. Why would you? Its asking for trouble and risking causing offence. But then I'm not a very touchy feelie person.
As for bumping into people on crowded public transport / pubs etc well that is clearly different although best not to rub yourself against anyone too suggestively.
And I have never allowed myself to go to the pub / cafe with a female colleague on a one to one basis. I was told about that 20 years ago and thought it a bit OTT but nonetheless took the advice.
This is all very well but how does anyone ever get to sleep with their colleagues?
a superior intellect
It's been explained to you so many times now that you [i]really aren't[/i] the misunderstood genius that you see yourself as.
On the contrary, your facile opinions and breathtaking lack of self-awareness mark you out as a bit of a buffoon.
you're demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.
The irony.
PS. kudos for sharing this TJ, and for keeping a level head about it
All us folks that were there in the early days of raving best be shitting ourselves over being sued over showing some love to eveyone else at the party. 🙄
Sadly there seems to be a lot less love going on these days.
Even sadder there seems to be a lot more not love going on. 😥
And I have never allowed myself to go to the pub / cafe with a female colleague on a one to one basis.
Why on earth not?
GrahamS - Member
How do these avoid all physical contact "stay at arm distance" cultures cope with things like taking public transport, standing in a crowd, going to a busy bar, getting in a crowded lift etc?
In the remote village you get lynch ...
In the city you get reported and the religious police would arrest you to keep you from harm.
😮
Odd chewkw, I've been to Malaysia a few times and was never arrested for going in a crowded lift, standing next to someone on the bus, or even shaking hands. Never got the slightest hint from them that I was in any way offensive.
I have never allowed myself to go to the pub / cafe with a female colleague on a one to one basis.
Yay equality! 🙄
Women in my workplace are rare, but I've got no problem going to the pub/cafe with them alone. Why would I? That's just odd.
And I have never allowed myself to go to the pub / cafe with a female colleague on a one to one basis.
+1 no matter how innocent this is asking for trouble your word against theirs. See previous evidence in this thread.
Apart from shaking hands or reciprocating hugging or something I don't touch women in the office. I was a line manager for a few a couple of years back and I wouldn't have dreamt of touching them (even in a reassuring manner) in the workplace.
There are plenty of women out there who are very tactile and it does make me feel uncomfortable (as I have wife + kids) even though it's always innocent I'm sure.
Your problem is that you're almost certainly an underachiever who....
...demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.
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GrahamS - Member
Odd chewkw, I've been to Malaysia a few times and was never arrested for going in a crowded lift, standing next to someone on the bus, or even shaking hands. Never got the slightest hint from them that I was in any way offensive.
You were either with a tolerant crowd or they let you be or like you (perhaps you don't look local) ... 😛
The trouble starts when they take offense. 😛
A story related by my wife when discussing Workplace Touching in the NHS:
She, as a Senior SHO at the time, had some treatment questions for a senior Consultant.
She met him in the corridor and started the conversation. He was rushing somewhere else, so said [i]"walk with me"[/i] and stuck out his hand. Without really thinking she took it and they walked hand in hand through the hospital discussing the case!
She said with anyone else it would have been very weird and awkward, but it's just the lovely guy he is.
you're almost certainly an underachiever who feels intimidated by a superior intellect and anyone who is clearly more successful in life than you are
I guess the retiring early to the life he choose is what makes you think he underachieved - its so wide of the mark one would be forgiven for mistaking this as a wild stab in the dark from someone dumb. Yo
As for superior intellect as I keep saying bright folk [ or humble folk or ace riders or super compassionate or whatever] dont feel the need to constantly tell folk how bright they are- have you seen how many time Trump does this for example - its merely serves to highlight their insecurity.
I recently had a shoulder x-ray and the chap that did it was (in the adjoining room) staring and pointing at the screen and a nurse joined him to take a look. They carried on discussing something and called another nurse over. They showed her something on the screen. She then turns around and walks over to me and strokes my nipple, laughs and says "oh, you're pierced.."
I probably could of had her fired.
Interesting thread.
I think the lesson has to be no touching of a female colleague, no matter how well intentioned.
TJ - by your own admission, you were a more senior colleague and as such may have been regarded in a position of perceived power. You touched a colleague and then followed up with an offer of a massage. You thought you were being helpful. However, it doesn't matter how noble your intentions were, if your colleague felt uncomfortable with your behaviour that she reported it then you clearly crossed the line.
Look at it from your colleagues perspective.
"So this guy at work touched me on the arm. I thought nothing of it but later he went on to offer me a massage. He made me feel really uncomfortable. He is more senior than me. What a creep! I think I should complain to HR."
Herein lies the problem. While men may think that they are behaving appropriately, they need to consider how their actions could be perceived. Abuse and bullying legislation is based on how the victim is made to feel.
It's not rocket science. If you think it isn't appropriate, it probably isn't!
Sanny (Head of HR in a previous life)
Your problem is that you're almost certainly an underachiever who feels intimidated by a superior intellect and anyone who is clearly more successful in life than you are. You're using this whole debate as a way to try and compensate for that; in some strange way, you're demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.
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The touching her are thing on it’s own as many other have said is not too much of an issue in the right context, I know a good few people male and female who when talking often reach out and touch people on arm or leg. I also fully understand where you are coming from with the care environment of a reassuring holing of a hand or pat on the arm, it’s does make people relax and feel safe. It can of course have the complete opposite. The massage part was the risky one, maybe the staff member was Ok with it but when discussing with her boss her boss didn’t see the context, the boss should have dealt with it better though.
Anyway not sure if it’s been posted elsewhere but Jo Brand summed up the whole thing the other night perfectly.
Or this nugget that just popped up on another forum discussing a similar thing
How long do women have to put up with:
(Senior) males behaving inappropriately - see HR explanation ^
Blame victims - see ^
Still miss basic point on why behaviour is wrong - see HR explanation ^
No wonder this problem carries on.... 😯
The 'politician who touched my knee' story in the press at the mo does seem to undermine the modern emancipated woman to some degree. Grow a set, or whatever the Spice Girls said.
FTFY.She then turns around and walks over to me and strokes my nipple, laughs and says "oh, you're pierced.."
I probably could of had her [s]fired[/s].
She then turns around and walks over to me and strokes my nipple, laughs and says "oh, you're pierced.."
I probably could of had her [s]fired[/s].FTFY.
This post is an excellent example of the other problem with sexual harassment that we face.
When it's done by a man to a women, the overwhelming response will be to punish the man and protect the woman.
When it's done by a woman to a man, the overwhelming response is to make a joke out of it.
In and of itself, this is indicative of the underlying gender biases in society.
Women are fragile and need protecting.
Men are strong and do not.
The 'politician who touched my knee' story in the press at the mo does seem to undermine the modern emancipated woman to some degree. Grow a set, or whatever the Spice Girls said.
JHB handled that entirely properly; she said do it again and I'll wallop you. People need putting in their place in some instances and prosecuting in others.
The line between where those two things diverge is what we should be discussing.
or whatever the Spice Girls said.
Girl Power!
Meaning women no longer being dominated by men and standing against it, such as sexual harassment.
Talking further to the missus about this, she has accepted very welcome offers of shoulder massages from other NHS staff, and seen others do likewise. Pretty natural de-stressing in a caregiving environment. So I can fully understand TJ's issue and boundary confusion.
Indeed early years pupils at my daughters' school are taught to give shoulder massages to each other in class.
The idea of a world where everyone is kept at arms length and innocent acts like touching someone's arm as reassurance, being alone with a woman in public, or shaking hands are regarded as inappropriate, is a very sad one.
Seems to me that in addition to the direct palpable harm to their victims, the perpetrators of sexual assault and power abuse have also caused a secondary harm to society itself.
No comment on your abuse of scotroutes that was spectacularly wide of the mark? Would a woman have apologised - is that another gender bias you wish to discus?
Weirdly you turn every thread into you and then when it is about you make no comment.
Man up and stop your crying.This post is an excellent example of the other problem with sexual harassment that we face.When it's done by a man to a women, the overwhelming response will be to punish the man and protect the woman.
When it's done by a woman to a man, the overwhelming response is to make a joke out of it.
In and of itself, this is indicative of the underlying gender biases in society.
Women are fragile and need protecting.
Men are strong and do not.
Meaning women no longer being dominated by men and standing against it, such as sexual harassment.
Quite except that the Spice Girls didn't invent that idea. I'm not sure who did but you could argue Elizabeth I kicked things off. It was admitedly a slow start and it wasn't until Emmeline Pankhurst got involved and Emily Davison threw herself under the King's horse that the idea started to gather momentum.
But I guess female emancipation really crystalised into a movement in the 60s and 70. 'The Female Eunuch' is an excellent and inspiring text. If you've not read it I can highly recommend it.
If the Spice Girls prove anything though it's the ability to turn an important idea already gestated, born and raised into full adulthood into an infatilised idea that you can repackage and give birth to all over again knowing full well that you'll be able to sell records off the back of it.
Seriously, a whole generation of emancipated, self actualised and high achieving women hung their heads in shame when the Spice Girls sold the idea to the world that female emancipation was a new thing.
TBH I was applying Onions 1st Law. Hence my banter response.Junkyard - lazarus
No comment on your abuse of scotroutes that was spectacularly wide of the mark?
GrahamS - you've pretty much nailed it. I think calmer heads are required. The current climate makes monsters of us all. There has to be a compromise where physical contact can be seen/accepted as non-sexual and where folk aren't afraid to treat workmates of all genders and sexualities equally.
No comment on your abuse of scotroutes that was spectacularly wide of the mark?
Junky do you have children?
Spice Girls sold the idea to the world that female emancipation was a new thing.
WOW! You went well off track there.
I was present when my friend was given his lung cancer diagnosis. There was him, me the doctor and a young nurse present. The moment he got the news he shed a tear, at which point the nurse jumped in and gave him a wonderful long comforting hug, I guessed that was why she was there.
I would not want that to change.
Seriously, a whole generation of emancipated, self actualised and high achieving women hung their heads in shame when the Spice Girls sold the idea to the world that female emancipation was a new thing.
Apologies for the non-pc language but you're mental mate.
Without becoming too embroiled in something which quite clearly I no longer understand ( I have worked from home for the last 10 years ) ..things have certainly become more "fragile" since I was involved in an office environment..I ran two businesses employing female support staff in a fairly high pressure sales environment where big egos in terms of sales personnel were very much to the fore ..
Not a hint of a complaint was heard from either side with the women giving as good as they got ..
Maybe they werent as fragile back then .
In terms of what I have read on this thread ..the article which Hammyuk posted a little earlier was interesting as it was written by a woman ..and the person who is articulating my own take on this ..way way better than I ever could is GrahamS.
Well Done sir ..
Drac - Moderator
[b]or whatever the Spice Girls said[/b].
Girl Power!Meaning women no longer being dominated by men and standing against it, such as sexual harassment.
Thanks for mansplaining 'Girl Power' for me, I wasn't so aware of its deeper meaning. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for mansplaining 'Girl Power' for me, I wasn't so aware of its deeper meaning. Keep up the good work.
Well when you seem to think it was the same as growing a set I felt the need to clarify it for you so you’re very welcome.
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Apologies for the non-pc language but you're mental mate.
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Just popped into work for half an hour.
A male Kashmiri is currently giving a female Nigerian a head massage.
Who should I call, the Daily Mail or the United Nations?
Edited as probably too much info for a Sunday morning.
🙂
The relevance of this answer to your behaviour should be fascinating to hear - I lack the superior intelligence to see the relevance and it looks like a smokescreen sidestep to this dullard.Junky do you have children?
Its worth applying[ and I do it much much more now] especially when its ambiguous but i think the benefit of the doubt left the building some while ago with this charmer.I was applying Onions 1st Law.
IMHO he appears to have issues- it might just be a shit sense of humour 😉
Decent discussion - I am surprised 😉
A couple of points - I am not confused about my role in this. I did the wrong thing mainly by misreading the signals. IE after the arm touching incident I should have taken more note of the scornful expression and had the emotional intelligence to then not make the shoulder massage offer. Clearly me in the wrong.
Compare this to an incident that happened to me a few years earlier when I was the subject of comments on my appearance that made me very uncomfortable ( I was made to walk past a group of women who all were discussing the shape of my bum) I had the personal power to stand up to them and I really gave them a telling off for it despite them being senior to me. End of incident because they realised that they were wrong and acknowledged it. In the case in the OP the woman involved did not have feel she had the personal power / confidence to do the same to me.
Another incident recently with a male student nurse. Big powerful bloke in his late 20s. 3 different young nurses came to me and told me he had been too touchy feely. At his interim placement meeting he was officially told to be careful of peoples personal space. Unofficially I took him aside and discussed it with him. He vehemently denied it. I think he had been being friendly in intent and not even realising what he was doing. However if 3 people all tell me the same story I believe them. He started off saying this needs to be an official investigation. I pointed out that he really didn't need an official investigation and my conversation with him was "man to man" to give him some advice. He changed his behaviour
Edit - and hopefully he learnt from this and learned to keep his hands to himself. I believe he did. Part of the chat I described the events in the OP to show how what we intend may not be how its seen and how careful men in nursing have to be
Quiet morning at Waitrose today Rusty? 😆
Which Waitrose? And do I just ask for rusty?
🙂
Direct payment chaps, form a queue.
What size does sir require?
Be honest now or it'll get messy.
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Can I interest you in a matching bag?
They always leak, just get a catheter in.
Interested to know from some of the no touching people do you openly encourage your young children to refrain from being touchy feely with the piers at school. Or does the no touching rule come in at puberty or just restrict it to the work place.
No - the real reason was I thought it an interesting point for discussion from me having been accused of sexual harassment.
Bah.... I was accused of rape. Was shunned by my family and had a cloud hanging over my head for 5 months until the girl fessed up to my cousin that she had consented.
We were caught doing the horizontal tango behind a bouncy castle.
Interested to know from some of the no touching people do you openly encourage your young children to refrain from being touchy feely with the piers at school.
We are the touching type (and we're non-coastal 😉 ) so our approach has been to encourage understanding of consent and have the [url= https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/underwear-rule/ ]PANTS talk[/url].
Our kids are very free with hugs and caring strokes for peers and others. I like that.
IMHO he appears to have issues- it might just be a shit sense of humour
Everyone has issues Junky. I’ve been very open about mine to the point of ridicule.
As I’ve got older I’ve come to the realisation that the main point in life, the pathway through which the most meaning and value is derived, is having children and and being a good parent.
All this other stuff we bicker about and debate (and which leads to a lot of mudslingjng and back biting) is just stuff we make up for our entertainment. Ultimately being a good parent is all that really matters. When I’m tucking my boys up and reading them a story and they put their arms around me and tell me they love me, that’s when the whole point of life and all it’s injustices and fubars cease to relevant and the pain goes away.
If you have kids Junky you’ll understand that. If you don’t then You won’t. That’s why I asked.
chip - Member
They always leak, just get a catheter in.
It won't leak if you stop fiddling with it.
chip - MemberThey always leak, just get a catheter in.
They don't leak if you measure 'em properly and once fitted give it a really good squeeze 😉
alpin: Jesus that's rough. Was she being malicious or just embarrassed/defensive?
It's something that gives me a moments ponder when people talk about "always believing the victims".
What they really mean (I hope) is "always take allegations seriously" - though in the age of trial by (social) media, the burden of proof does seem to be slipping.
Related: http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/does-an-allegation-equate-to-guilt
True TJ, true.
Nice air gap and don't get kinky with your hose.
😀
😉
I must have a magic penis, it changes in stature like the wind, it can go from respectable to pitiful and back again. 😀
Interested to know from some of the no touching people do you openly encourage your young children to refrain from being touchy feely with the piers at school. Or does the no touching rule come in at puberty or just restrict it to the work place.
Just in work. Outside of work I’m quite a huggy, tactile person.
needs my delicate touch chips 😉
Responding to the OP's original post, I don't think I have ever put my hand on anybody at work. Personally, I find people who put their hand on the back or arms of subordinates in particular are doing so as a way of reinforcing their superiority. We had a CEO who would do it whilst partly congratulating you on good work but more obviously asking for a lot more work to silly deadlines. He was a ****.
As for offering a massage, I would never 'go there' - it really isn't worth the aggravation even if you are a qualified masseur in your spare time and know it would help.
In a work context I'd much rather be rewarded for going over and above with some more pay or some time off in lieu rather than a patronising touch on the forearm, thank you very much.
It's a strange world were are in at the moment, where the most powerful man in the world was elected despite the fact he can boast of grabbing woman inappropriately, but the average man has to seriously think about putting an arm round a work colleague even he has know her years if she was upset.
On the flip side though, as a glass collector in a bar as a youth i was fondled and man-handled more times than i can remember, when i wore an army uniform for some reason many ladies felt that was a sign to say i'd like to just be grabbed however they wanted and even on my bike i've had a lady of more mature years lean out of her car window to stroke my thigh and make a few comments, as a man you are expected to laugh these things off (and i did), but it does make you think why is that OK?
"What is wrong with women these days ?
What men should do is completely ignore them and see how long it is before they start questioning themselves as to what is wrong / have I suddenly become unattractive"
Oh that already happens, on Friday night I found myself in our buildings bar, where two women, one a red head who looked liked Laura Prepon when she had red hair - and a brunette, got pretty drunk....and then yanked my arm and had me dance with them. Didn't ask for it and didn't want it.
Because:
A) Married (morals, loyalty etc) and rumour travels fast in our building even if your intentions are innocent.
B) They were drunk and I am not going down on charges of being a pervert.
So now I'm gay apparently, and now I'm having to fend off the questions of the resident dandys. I jest, but I'm pretty irritated by the whole thing, if I'd yanked a woman on to the dance floor like that I'd have been dragged back to my room by the concierge.
Also, welcome back to the 1920s - the hairstyles back, the taste in booze is back, the clothes are back and soon the chaperones will be as well!
Tom while I wrote the comment you quoted above ..you missed off the bit of my original post right at the end ..which said .." A quote "
There was a very good reason for that as the " quote " was not from myself but the person I was discussing this thread with at the time ...my wife.
@gt
Yes I have kids yes they are the most important thing but I am not sure what the point is in stating that ,its a given for everyone , and absolutely irrelevant to this debate or my views on this subject
Like you I decided to not pass on the harm that was done to me and it stopped with me. I carried* the burden of my childhood and I dont repeat it with my kids. Still not relevant to this discussion.
* glad I put the past tense there[ not through effort] but it will never be entirely true
I wasn't taking issue with your quote.
I was talking to a very old friend of mine from 6th form, she's 30 now - attractive but single. She managed to spend the conversation complaining about men like Weinstein, but then complained about the man she was seeing because he's too soft, sensitive and not direct enough. I tried to get her to reconcile her opinions of Weinstein and the current man she was seeing, but her retort was "Where have all the decent men gone, the ones that aren't soft but aren't Weinsteins".
I gave up at that point. I'd add that she is a fan of 50 Shades of Grey as well.
Whatever the positive outcomes from ‘Girl Power’, I will need a lot of convincing that this was not just a cynical marketing approach to get young girls to buy pop CD’s.
Tom_W1987 - Member
I wasn't taking issue with your quote.I was talking to a very old friend of mine from 6th form, she's 30 now - attractive but single. She managed to spend the conversation complaining about men like Weinstein, but then complained about the man she was seeing because he's too soft, sensitive and not direct enough. I tried to get her to reconcile her opinions of Weinstein and the current man she was seeing, but her retort was "Where have all the decent men gone, the ones that aren't soft but aren't Weinsteins".
I gave up at that point. I'd add that she is a fan of 50 Shades of Grey as well.
POSTED 6 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
That's not really about sex, though. That's more to do with control. She sounds like a high maintenance nightmare who will end up being single, having brief but unsatisfactory/bad relationships and spending the gaps in between wondering why..... 🙄
Tom ..I got that you weren't taking issue with the quote .
Stating that my missus said that was to align my thinking to yours and also to show that not all women are so delicate as to cry wolf at the slightest physical interaction ..her way of saying from a woman's point of view that they need to grow a pair
slightest physical interaction ..her way of saying from a woman's point of view that they need to grow a pair
That's what I said, got told off for it.
Yes I have kids yes they are the most important thing but I am not sure what the point is in stating that ,its a given for everyone , and absolutely irrelevant to this debate or my views on this subject
It's something we can both agree on. It's something that we can observe in each other and conclude that that person is a good person. It's something that can cut through the whole gender political BS that defines quite a bit (but definitely not all or even the majority) of the issue we are discussing.
This and the other related threads have been, at times, truly vile places with lots of things said that are personal attacks (and mine to Scotroutes was done in direct response to just such an attack).
So what's the relevance? It's the thing that stops the nastiness and brings us back to our senses.
Love you buddy. Whatever else gets said, I know you must be a good person.
It's the new rules - you have to be wearing a skirt to get away with that sort of comment.giantalkali
That's what I said, got told off for it.
It's the new rules - you have to be wearing a skirt to get away with that sort of comment
True the Scots get away with all kinds of anti-English comments but any hint of the other way round and down comes the hammer inappropriately
says the man who used to say sweaty scots all the time
You have become a parodoy account these days
I tried to get her to reconcile her opinions of Weinstein and the current man she was seeing
What is there to reconcile?
Weinstein is not "direct". He's accused of being a rapist.