[Closed] Sexual harrassment - a different perspective

but it still damaged my career.

How did it damage your career?

pervert.

gobuchal - my boss no longer trusted me or my judgement. I was moved to a different position where I was effectively less senior and turned down for promotion ( but I had made other mistakes as well)

pervert.

You seem stressed, ton. Fancy a back rub?

Another thread on the same subject because it’s in the media and trending ?

How about a thread on the weather..

You seem stressed, ton. Fancy a back rub?

only if Jezza does it. 😀

This thread's making me horny.

Didn't we cover this in one of Geetee's recent threads?

The whole situation is a mess.

Of course innocent gestures are being made out to be more than they are/were. This is partly due to the current feeding frenzy. I can think of numerous times I've acted similarly to you.

OTOH people who feel they're under assault (and it's mostly women) are now more empowered to make their feelings known. Perhaps, in your case, your colleague would now find it more acceptable to tell you how she felt on the first occasion and that would have been an end to it.

TJ you did nothing wrong but if your actions were performed by a tory mp I'd want them pegged out at low tide.
They are down, let's enjoy every kick we can get in.

Indeed scotroute a " get your hands off me!" would have been enough

I would consider your actions inappropriate. I would never touch a female member of staff and certainly not offer to give one a massage, that just sounds creepy.

Indeed scotroute a " get your hands off me!" would have been enough

Depends. Were you in a [s]missionary[/s] senior position?

I would never touch a female member of staff and certainly not offer to give one a massage, that just sounds creepy.

Also agree. Not saying it's creepy, but I just wouldn't do it.

Now the male members I'd be smacking on the ass and calling treacle all day.

[quote=tjagain ]Indeed scotroute a " get your hands off me!" would have been enough

Yep - and it could be that she felt threatened either by your position in the organisations hierarchy - or your sheer physical presence 😉

FWIW - I don't see there's necessarily anything wrong with either of your actions. I'm not exactly the most touchy/feely person but there are genuinely times where a physical touch can have a calming and reassuring effect.

"My" ladies frequently ask me for a back rub.

Zippy - I did do something wrong - I touched someone without their consent and made them feel uncomfutable

Jonnyboi - I agree. Unwise and naive from me. I have/ had trained myself to see my colleagues as people not women ( to the extent that other colleagues have said to me things like - "you know so and so, the pretty one" and I have to actually call up a mental picture of them to see if we are talking about the same person) - and thus I completely missed that implication

Edit - scotroute - I am not particularly touchy feely but use of touch is an important part of my job even to the point of giving hugs when needed so touch is normalised to some extent in nursing

[quote=tjagain ]Zippy - I did do something wrong - I touched a someone without their consent.

So, take this to the next step. Should you have asked if it was OK to touch her? Wouldn't that also come under the heading of "unwanted sexual advance" (depending upon the mindset of the individuals involved and in judging it)?

Edit - scotroute - I am not particularly touchy feely but use of touch is an important part of my job even to the point of giving hugs when needed so touch is normalised to some extent in nursing

May she'd heard about your well documented views on using protection?

Ah well - its a sunny day so bike ride time. Have fun with this chaps.

I doubt this thread will have a happy ending...

So what if she felt uncomfortable, let her, no harm was intended nor done. I'm sure she never considered what you felt when she reported you. People are too worried now about offending others and others are looking too hard for offence. Get on with your life and if you offend the odd person here and there, meh, who cares. If it wasn't you it'd be someone else anyway.

tjagain - Member
Ah well - its a sunny day so bike ride time. Have fun with this chaps.

Annnnd the real reason for the thread.

1) pick a topic that could potentially polarise opinion
2) add some random narrative to outline the posters point
3) go out for the day
4) come back to see if the threads hit 3 pages
5) sit back in the glow of a job well done

Doffs cap.

"What is wrong with women these days ?
What men should do is completely ignore them and see how long it is before they start questioning themselves as to what is wrong / have I suddenly become unattractive"
A quote.

No - the real reason was I thought it an interesting point for discussion from me having been accused of sexual harassment.

gobuchal - my boss no longer trusted me or my judgement. I was moved to a different position where I was effectively less senior and turned down for promotion ( but I had made other mistakes as well)

If she really thought you had an issue, she would of done something. Don't you work in the NHS? Even 25 years ago, they had pretty robust procedures.

( but I had made other mistakes as well)

Sounds much more likely the real reason for the effect on your career.

I doubt this thread will have a happy ending...

For £500+VAT it could do.

Love you ling time.

Really you should have been spoken to at the time, whilst your colleague may have felt you were a bit off, I'm sure a quiet word so you knew she was uncomfortable would have been the best way to handle it.

Whilst it [i]could [/i] be deemed inappropriate I don't think a one off comment like that really constitutes harassment.

Unknowingly having the sword of damocles hanging over you is equally, if not more inappropriate.

Also, of you really were Mr tickle, and you did something further down the line when it was known there had been a previous complaint that wasn't brought up with you.. Well that would drop the company right in it for effectively ignoring a potential issue.

This whole debate is getting a bit ridiculous.
Merely touching someone is not unacceptable the has to be context and where on there body you touched them.

Reassuringly touching someone’s forearm is not sexual harresment.

We are heading for a very emotionally sterile world when all touching is considered sexual or inappropriate.

Chip...
At last someone talking a little bit of sense..

Reassuringly touching someone’s forearm is not sexual harresment.

I guess the blanket ban is there just to remove any grey areas. Some may be ok with touching, others not. In a work environment it probably just solves a lot of headaches by just saying no to all. Removes all ambiguity....obviously at the cost of nuance etc.

She didn't report you because you touched her arm though dude. It was because you touched her arm and offered to give her a shoulder massage. That second one alone is a bit weird, in conjunction with the first I can see why it was reported. You have to realise that your actions can be interpreted in a different way to how you intended. So however innocent the massage offer was, and sounded in your head, she may have heard a completely different tone to the one you intended.

I guess the blanket ban is there just to remove any grey areas

Maybe, but don’t call it sexual harrasment call it something else. Like showing humanity.

“Jeff I’ve called you in to my office today because it’s been reported to me that you touched Brenda’s arm in an unprovoked act of human kindness. It has been noted on your permanent record, don’t let it happen again”

You have to realise that your actions can be interpreted in a different way to how you intended. So however innocent the massage offer was, and sounded in your head, she may have heard a completely different tone to the one you intended.

Oh I do and I now see it clearly. The thing is I have offered and done so for male colleagues and in my mind I was treating her as I would anyone else

Reassuringly touching someone’s forearm is not sexual harresment.

It could be, you choose to believe the OPs motivation for touching another member of staff. How do you know that in a similar situation someone might do the same thing to see how far they can go?

When you offfered her this massage you did not hold your two hands in front of you at chest height before pumping your fingers asif honking two imaginary horns?

Did she fill in a [url= http://www.27bslash6.com/f26a.html ]F26-A form?[/url]

(Sorry, nothing helpful to add for OP, but I like chip’s commentary)

This whole debate is getting a bit ridiculous.
Merely touching someone is not unacceptable the has to be context and where on there body you touched them.

One of the points in The Guardian article we discussed on the #MeToo thread was:

[i]"Don’t touch women you don’t know, and honestly, ask yourself why you feel the need to touch women in general."[/i]

Some folk, including my wife, said that I was being an arse by taking that too literally and [i]obviously[/i] it depends on context. But it does seem that [i]some[/i] women do expect this extreme. Seems incredibly inhuman to me. 🙁

This whole debate is getting a bit ridiculous.
Merely touching someone is not unacceptable the has to be context and where on there body you touched them.

Reassuringly touching someone’s forearm is not sexual harresment.

We are heading for a very emotionally sterile world when all touching is considered sexual or inappropriate.

This and calling it unprovoked human kindness is where I’m at. It’s a sad world where showing compassion and trying to be nice is considered deviant behaviour

At work I have found it best to just not engage in anything other than a super lofty and professional manner. Several years ago I went for a post work drink with a younger female member of staff who got very drunk downing three large reds in short order as she unloaded all of her issues onto me. I listened to her drunken ranting and then called her boyfriend to come and get her as it was evident she was too pissed to drive. I then went home. Several weeks later I heard the rumour she was spreading was I'd drugged her because, she doesn't "get pissed that quickly" no reason given as to why I'd do so or indeed any motive or accusations of inappropriate advances on my part. So there it is, try to offer a shoulder and that's what you get.

It's a simple fact that you have to protect yourself from any hint of anything remotely sexual these days, best to have witnesses at all times IMHO but even that doesn't help if someone's flattering themselves.

tjagain - Member
25 years ago I was accused of sexual harassment by a junior colleague. NO official complaint was made but it was reported to my boss. She didn't tell me for over a year.

The simple rule. Do Not touch other people. Regardless of gender, age etc. Stay at arm distance. Not even shaking hands if possible unless they offer.

First was I apologised for something ( I can't remember what) to this colleague and whilst doing so placed my hand on her forearm - intended to be a reassuring gesture / show sincerity.

In my part of the world you would be in serious trouble especially if she is not your partner. We don't even shake hands with other people coz that's not in our culture.

Some parts of the world they lock up electricians for touching strange men on the hip in crowded bars.

I never 'touch' a female colleague - very easy way to end up in trouble. I do know one or two 'touchy' females that quite openly touch your arm, but I certainly don't reciprocate. I've had a young female colleague come for a hug in the office on the day she was leaving - I felt 'uncomfortable' as I'm old enough to be her dad, but it was a 'thanks' type thing and we do keep in touch - not so sure it would work the other way round.

You do have to be very careful, as some folk see the complete opposite in your intentions.

We have one young 'married' girl in the office who get's very 'tactile' after a few beers (nothing is intended, just she get's very touchy) - one of the other girls said 'watch out' in a 'nice' way. Again, if it's a bloke getting like that, things would certainly be different.

Do Not touch other people. Regardless of gender, age etc. Stay at arm distance. Not even shaking hands if possible unless they offer.

I don't think that is a healthy way to live at all.

never 'touch' a female colleague - very easy way to end up in trouble. I do know one or two 'touchy' females that quite openly touch your arm, but I certainly don't reciprocate. I've had a young female colleague come for a hug in the office on the day she was leaving - I felt 'uncomfortable' as I'm old enough to be her dad, but it was a 'thanks' type thing and we do keep in touch - not so sure it would work the other way round.

You do have to be very careful, as some folk see the complete opposite in your intentions.

It’s just work, you should be able to have a healthy relationship with work colleagues without feeling you have to touch them. I haven’t touched any of my female staff and I’m fairly sure none of us are the poorer for it.

I'm reading some complete shite on here as advice ..dont shake hands ffs..how the hell can that be derived as sexual harassment ..are you also frightened of your own shadow ?

It’s just work, you should be able to have a healthy relationship with work colleagues without [s]feeling you have to touch them[/s] them feeling that physical contact is some sort of sexual advnace.

I motorboated my colleague yesterday but only after she spanked my arse, so that makes it ok.

tjagain - Member
25 years ago I was accused of sexual harassment by a junior colleague. NO official complaint was made but it was reported to my boss. She didn't tell me for over a year.

Completely unprofessional behaviour on the part of your boss.

Some people are very touchy feely, some aren't.

Just talk to your colleagues, we do and and just clears the air.

Be honest with people.
I've a colleague who regularly slaps backsides, insists on plaiting my hair and has the filthiest sense of humour.
It's fine because we talk about it and all know there is absolutely no intent to offend.
She knows who enjoys it and who doesn't and behaves appropriately.

If anyone does act in an unprofessional manner, it's dealt with properly, safeguarding applies equally to staff.

Very lucky to have excellent colleagues and manager.

My kind of woman.. 😆
Edit ..and it would be taken in the manner in which it was intended ..as a bit of harmless fun

you should be able to have a healthy relationship with work colleagues without feeling you have to touch them

Ever worked behind a busy bar?

You constantly touch each other on the hip, arm or shoulder to avoid crashing into each other whilst serving. It's just natural communication.

Okay it's different in an office environment, but we're not talking about walking up to Amanda from accounts and stroking her thighs here. We're talking about shaking hands FFS.

Personally if someone walked into a meeting and only shook hands with the men then I'd think he was a right arse.

GrahamS - Member

Do Not touch other people. Regardless of gender, age etc. Stay at arm distance. Not even shaking hands if possible unless they offer

I don't think that is a healthy way to live at all.

I think I probably did not get the job because I shook the hands (offer my hand) of my country women (of other strict religious denomination) and I remember both the interviewers (women) pulled their hands away immediately when the hands touched ... for one second. i.e. grab and let go kind of hand shake. I only realised my mistake later on. (forgot where I was ... ) If that was in front of their male counterpart I/we(interviewers) would all be in trouble.

😆

[quote=GrahamS ]Personally if someone walked into a meeting and only shook hands with the men then I'd think he was a right arse.Surely the new world order would mean avoiding shaking hands at all.

sexual harrassment? try wearing a kilt on a night out in newcastle.

If you remove all the perks from positions of power then who is going to want the jobs?

try wearing a kilt on a night out in newcastle.

That is definitely "asking for it" territory! No jury would convict. 🙂

gobuchul - Member

try wearing a kilt on a night out in newcastle.

That is definitely "asking for it" territory! No jury would convict.

How do these avoid all physical contact "stay at arm distance" cultures cope with things like taking public transport, standing in a crowd, going to a busy bar, getting in a crowded lift etc?

I agree with what chip and funkmasterp said.
Some people don't like any touchy-feely contact but calling this sexual harassment is a bit far fetched.

Some people don't like any touchy-feely contact but calling this sexual harassment is a bit far fetched.

It's a gateway grope.

[quote=ChubbyBlokeInLycra ]sexual harrassment? try wearing a kilt on a night out in newcastle.

Or anywhere actually . I once had a woman come up to me and simply place her camera underneath ,from behind, and take a pic

I asked what her reaction would be if i did the same

I asked what her reaction would be if i did the same

Steady now Junky! You sound just like GT! 😀

OUCH 😀

It's not complicated! When it comes to physical contact, if you'd not do it to a dude, then you don't do it with a woman. So pretty much, shaking hands is about it.

Women adopt the same approach but are more tactile by nature, so I don't scream "HELP" if I get my arm squeezed.

Then everyone can carry on flirting the day away, as that's just how life is.

[quote=bearnecessities ]Women adopt the same approach but are more tactile by nature, Dood. Sexist!

Blatant victim blaming

It's not complicated! When it comes to physical contact, if you'd not do it to a dude, then you don't do it with a woman.

😆

if you'd not do it to a dude, then you don't do it with a woman

A mop?

What about the flash?

What if they are gender fluid?

That's what happens if I touch someone.

scotroutes - Member
What about the flash?

Possibly acceptable for consenting adults but probably best saved for later.
🙂
I'm going minimalist.

a female colleague high fived me last week. I feel used. Don’t even get me started on the time we were really bored and we had a thumb war.

I feel vindicated.

I do love you guys. Sincerely I love this place. It can get pretty crappy at times but it always comes good in the end.

geetee1972 - Member
I feel vindicated

I do sometimes feel the latter lets you down.

You're very right. I score very low on 'politeness' even though I am very compassionate so I temd to favour 'raw truth' over sugar coated diplomacy.

It's a very common male trait more so with the engineering types (of which I am not one).

It's nothing to do with politeness, compassion or diplomacy. I think it's that you often over-state/exaggerate your opinion, which leads you into conflict when folk point out your inaccuracies. Interesting that you try to excuse it by suggesting it's common rather than to look more at your communication skills though. This forum is almost exclusively male yet you stand out (with a few others TBF).

Anyway, let's try not to make this another thread about you.

Anyway, let's try not to make this another thread about you.

No let's make it about you instead.

Your problem is that you're almost certainly an underachiever who feels intimidated by a superior intellect and anyone who is clearly more successful in life than you are. You're using this whole debate as a way to try and compensate for that; in some strange way, you're demeaning your own gender because you feel inadequate as a man.

Got it in one, though your use of the phrase "almost certainly" makes you look terribly indecisive.