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The “good news” on that EU return is nonsense as a comparison, as they were at a much lower base than we will be, even if it’s all good news in the next two weeks.
If it showed a pattern of infection via schools in two weeks time other countries would be *very* foolish to dismiss it on the basis they're starting from different bases and therefore not 'comparable' to them.
I cycled past the village pond on Saturday and it was full of families mixing, with kids playing together –
If the local kids are all mixing together at the pond, what's the difference to mixing at the school?
There's risk and contact where-ever they are coming together
Bury Council have sent a letter saying not yet, ours are year 2 and 4 so not in the priority list anyway. It's school transmission that is the big unknown, my two want to go back but what if that's risking the health of the teachers? what school benefit do they get from a social distanced experience compared to online stuff with my halfarsed tuition style? no easy answers to that I know.
Although it's a bit of a pita jamming my work into half a morning and my wife and I exchanging childcare for work over lunch it's certainly a fortunate position compared to others so I'll continue to do what we are at the moment and take the lead from the school, when they tell us they're ready then we will support the head's choice. The school and LEA will make better choices that Bozo and his selfish gang.
Boomerlives
Opening schools is a much higher risk. All those parents and cars. Kids in enclosed spaces.
The more possible contacts the higher the risk and it multiplies rather than adds.
If the local kids are all mixing together at the pond, what’s the difference to mixing at the school?
That's the problem, isn't it - they're mixing now, and will be rife to give everyone a dose come schooltime if children can indeed transmit it.
I suppose it's as simple as this really.
If you trust that the government is sending your children back to school based purely on their education and is taking every precaution to keep them* safe then why not?
If you think the decision is probably based far more on political and economic grounds I'd be waiting till you see the government send "their own" back to school at Eton etc etc.
*Their teachers also.
Its clearly political, if they havent the balls to back their view and make it compulsory why should we trust them?
It may well be moot anyway. Only 5%of teachers think it safe
Unions ate opposed. bma agrees with the unions many councils are against
The government has a legal duty to ensure safety
Teachers can refuse and I suspect many will.
Sort of compulsory. You have the choice as a parent, but it is going down as unauthorised absence if the're not there, but you won't be fined. Yet.
Like we tell you what to do, but you're responsible, but we reserve the right to enforce.
Fudge speak
Tj
Sorry, what makes you think that they will refuse?
Imo, they're being put in a crap position, but I don't see signs that they will refuse.
Sort of compulsory. You have the choice as a parent, but it is going down as unauthorised absence if the’re not there, but you won’t be fined. Yet.
What are you on about- are you just trolling?
the government send “their own” back to school at Eton etc etc.
I can tell you now that 'Eton etc' won't be opening until September. Heads of the above have been discussing and it looks unanimous. The logistics of a boarding school and overseas students and the fact we have been in a position to offer a better facilitated online offering combined with the fact that the independent school year will be finished on Friday 3rd July means it is not going to be happening.
Read into that what you will.
When their unions advise them not open? Many employers will not want to open schools that is clear so all thats left are the acedemy schools and those with tory run councils. those teachers being pushed ito both being at risk and increasing risk across the population will look to their colleagues in neighbouring schools who are not being put in that position and think - why me?
5% think it safe. They will be conflicted yes but I think what will actually happen is the government backs down under the threat of revolt because they know it will be a fight and one they will lose.
What's puzzling you vinyeh?
where you're getting the 'going down as unauthorised absence' bit from. And the suggestion that fines will follow.
I'd love one of the actual teachers to confirm, but where we are we've be told that if a child doesn't go back (R,1,6) then the current department for education guidelines state that they will be marked as unauthorised absence but not fined, and the school has no discretion in that.
That's no fine, if it was unclear.
But I really don't like the unauthorised absence bit, cos to me that reads as "we reserve the right"
We have enjoyed the lockdown chez Saxon all things considered, and have managed to given the kids way more stuff than they would have ever got at school.
That said, I can't help but notice a double standard in the government's approach to state schools as opposed to the 'great' private schools.
In light of these and many factors, regardless of what the Welsh government decides when the time comes, we will probably keep the kids at home until the autumn.
I’d love one of the actual teachers to confirm, but where we are we’ve be told that if a child doesn’t go back (R,1,6) then the current department for education guidelines state that they will be marked as unauthorised absence but not fined, and the school has no discretion in that.
Aah, ok, thought you were troublemaking! Haven't seen anything in the news about this, thought I'd read the opposite in fact and none of our local schools (3 secondary, 8 or so primary have offered the slightest hint they might be looking at taking back more pupils.
But I really don’t like the unauthorised absence bit, cos to me that reads as “we reserve the right”
Unauthorised absence is more than just a fine for a one off holiday. It stays on a child's record for the length of time they are in education. A lot of it over a period of time can be a trigger for intervention. Not on its own maybe but alongside other issues. Clearly these are extreme circumstances but in the future if other 'issues' arise it might appear on a future 'charge sheet'.
PGDE - we are going ahead as normal but there will be more checks in our NQT year to balance the lack of placement experience this year. We only had a few lectures left for the year and we missed our last placement. The uni's have graded people on the previous placements and how we would have progressed on the last one.
I've passed two out of three modules and waiting to hear back on the third. Some students have been put on retrieval though so will have to do another placement in September.
I can tell you now that ‘Eton etc’ won’t be opening until September. Heads of the above have been discussing and it looks unanimous.
The day schools are keen to get back, I wouldn't be surprised to see some casualties in the boarding sector.
All those parents and cars. Kids in enclosed spaces
Parents have cars whether kids are at school or not. Not sure what point that tries to make; if you share a house, you share space anyway. Car, kitchen, bog - whatever
Kids will have a modicum of social distance forced upon them; and mandatory hand washing and sanitising. Not something that is likely feeding the ducks.
There will be more opportunity for infection to pass between people. Adults driving kids to school as well as the kids themselves and also transmission is much more likely in enclosed spaces.
The science says that it is not safe. The bma says it's not safe. The unions say it is not safe. 95%of teachers think it is not safe
Sort of compulsory. You have the choice as a parent, but it is going down as unauthorised absence if the’re not there, but you won’t be fined. Yet.
Many will rightly or wrongly not send kids. The gov have said they wont be fined. It stinks of them having a get clause if something goes wrong.
The vast majority of teachers will go work I would think.
This is what Teaching Unions and the BMA are trying to prevent.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/19/france-reports-70-coronavirus-linked-reopening-schools-12725091/
It really is time to stand up and be counted. Its clearly too early to send students back to school.
Please write to your MP if you think your child is worth it. The following email is from the NEU.
Please have a read and e-mail your MP if you agree. (I'll post the link to the automatic MP e-mailer in a minute.)
Dear Simon,
The Prime Minister’s announcement that schools, colleges and nurseries should start opening more widely from 1 June was rushed and reckless.
Our response and our position is clear: this should happen only when it’s safe. Safe for children, for the staff who care for and educate them, and for the community. The more than 400,000 teachers, teaching assistants, heads, parents and health workers who have signed our petition agree.
We have written three times to ask for the scientific evidence the Government says proves it’s safe to open schools more widely. All we want is to see the science. Our pressure has led to movement: this afternoon, our leaders met with the Government’s scientific advisers, asking again for the evidence. But now we need your help.
Will you email your MP now, asking them to raise concerns with the Government?
Earlier this week the Department for Education’s chief scientific adviser admitted the Government’s current plan could risk spreading coronavirus. We all want children and young people to be back in school as soon as possible. But when this happens it is vital that it is safe. We want to know how much children transmit to one another and to adults and what the risk is for society as a whole.
Our members care deeply about the children they teach and are very concerned about the impact of school closures on families. But nothing is more important than making sure our schools, the pupils we teach, their families and communities are safe.
In the meantime, please take two minutes to email your MP now.
Ooh you've mentioned unions, run and hide!!
We've got a 3yo at pre-school. Just seems madness to think about sending him back to mix amongst other his age. The sad thing is, in the past he was a bit of a loner, and was the eldest at nursery so was put into pre-school early but found it difficult to mix with the older children who did a lot of pretend play that he hadn't yet learnt. He's really developed that kind of play over lockdown but if he did go back he'd be told to play on his own! There's not a chance in hell he could social distance for longer than ten minutes!
Watch out Anagallis...... I'm gonna quote Rebecca Long Bailey next!
She was awesome on BBC Breakfast.
people are ‘likely’ to have been infected before the reopening of schools, he said.
So the school is unlikely to be the cause of the spread.
There’s not a chance in hell he could social distance for longer than ten minutes!
Is your pre-school social distancing the kids? Our has explicitly stated that for the kids there will be no social distancing of any kind.
I'd be amazed if your nursery was doing anything different, what are they going to do gaffer tape them?
We're going to be sending our 1 and 4 year old to nursery. The nursery has been communicating with us constantly and have shared plans as they are developed. There will be no social distancing for kids within arch of the 6 the rooms but the rooms will be and the staff will be from each other. Unlike schools the staff are nearly all in their 20s so are in a low risk category and they have been given the option whether to work or not. The majority of parents are sending their kids back.
Perhaps if one of us was furloughed we'd make a different choice but juggling work and 2 preschoolers is next to impossible and you end up failing at both.
Having said that I'm not sure I'd feel the same if they were school aged. Going back for a few weeks us not going to help educationally and it won't help working parents much as there is no wrap around care and come the summer holidays no summer clubs, grandparent or fellow parents to share the childcare workload. It's not clear what the government is trying to achieve, the effort should be put into preparing for opening in September.
Sort of compulsory. You have the choice as a parent, but it is going down as unauthorised absence if the’re not there, but you won’t be fined. Yet.
Like we tell you what to do, but you’re responsible, but we reserve the right to enforce.
Fudge speak
It may vary between each authority, but I work at an academy in the SW and it is us that decide on fines, not the LA. Our heads view is that it is parental choice if kids in Yr 10 attend or not; we will have no choice on coding but I can categorically say that parents will not be fined and any absence during this period would not be used in any future attendance issues.
18 english councils have now said their schools will not be reopening at all on that date.
Its just not going to happen. the government are going to have to back down or have a huge fight.
Its stupid and pointless and dangerous
South Korea, who some might say have managed the crisis significantly better than our Gov, have now returned some older students, but with face masks, barriers between students etc. UK Gov guidance to schools is that PPE is not needed, unless a student shows signs of being ill (by which time others will have been infected).
I don't think the Gov gives a **** about people dying.
Its just not going to happen. the government are going to have to back down or have a huge fight.
You are assuming the fight is not what the gov wants, clearly putting any blame onto teachers and councils is perfect for them!!!
Its clearly political, if they havent the balls to back their view and make it compulsory why should we trust them?
Maybe it's not compulsory because they understand that some schools will be able to put appropriate measures in place - small class sizes, one way systems around the site, space to spread out etc - and so can reopen "safely" according to advice, and some won't?
The government has been appalling in their handling of this whole thing, but guidelines have been left as just that because a prescriptive one size fits all blanket ruling will make it even harder for some.
Notwithstanding the sh*tshow of a mess that has been our government's response to this I'm with Cheers_Drive on this. Two of us trying to work full time with a four year old and the facade is starting to crumble. His nursery have been brilliant in terms of keeping us updated with the measures they're taking and we're happy to send him back. We're pretty sure we've all had it already, but regardless we'd still have him there.
If everyone is still social distancing then the expansion of the bubble to a few extra families shouldn't actually make that much difference if you think about it..
Fully respect that people see things differently and that the situation with schools is different to nurseries. Though we'd still send him to school.
but guidelines have been left as just that because a prescriptive one size fits all blanket ruling will make it even harder for some.
Excactly. I agree it has been a shambles but just as frustrating is the people who have complained and looked for loopholes instead of just taking general advice. I have not seen my son and 4 month old Grandson or my elderly mother since this began. I am frustrated by my neighbours having friends around but also "socially distancing" etc. Taking their children to parties etc. I think there will be a lot of strained friendships when this is over.
Maybe it’s not compulsory because they understand that some schools will be able to put appropriate measures in place
I meant not compulsory for kids
the backtracking starts...........
The justice secretary Robert Buckland has repeated in his morning interviews that the 1 June date for reopening primary schools is not a fixed date. It now seems extremely likely that not all primary schools will be retuning in under a fortnight – and that the government will not force schools to open.
“The 1st of June was a conditional date, the five tests still apply, testing and tracing is clearly our priority –
More or less on now. Children have 1/4 of the viral load.
the backtracking starts………..
Not sure backtracking to your original stated aims is really backtracking.
Eh\?
You mean that yo don't consider it backtracking to give a hard date when schools must open then change it to being a conditional date?
I'll bet you over the next couple of days we see this slide further
Had letter from our kid’s primary. They’re expanding the existing model from 8th June to more vulnerable kids or those of critical workers (including wraparound care for those who need it) rather than attempting to bring back any whole year groups. It makes sense given limited space and the need to continue doing that role.
Feeling less and less likely ours will be back by summer.
Had letter from our kid’s primary. They’re expanding the existing model from 8th June to more vulnerable kids or those of critical workers (including wraparound care for those who need it) rather than attempting to bring back any whole year groups. It makes sense given limited space and the need to continue doing that role.
Feeling less and less likely ours will be back by summer.
That does make sense
Ours have said they won't be able to take back all years to accommodate 15 kid class size, so our 7 yr old will miss his last term of school, but his 9 year old brother will be able to go back , as would his younger brother & sister in nursery
@outofbreath
Member
More or less on now. Children have 1/4 of the viral load.
Where have u seen that?
hard date when schools must open then change it to being a conditional date?
It was always conditional.
More or less on now. Children have 1/4 of the viral load.
Where have u seen that?
On the R4 show "More or Less" broadcast today and available on catchup.
More or less on now. Children have 1/4 of the viral load.
Is this just from a random sentence generator?
Edit
More or less? And where did they get the info from? Does 1/4 of the viral load translate to less transmission, especially if asymptomatic and and could you define what a child is?
Sheffield is allowing all keyworker's kids back as well as Y1 & Y6. Havre tried to keep babybgoode at home and the one time we needed a place for him over the last few weeks they were full so that didn't work too well.
But we had a phone call saying it is by no means compulsory but there's a place if we want it. We've taken it for now but they have made it clear if we change our minds we can just let them know.
For me it's not about the risk of him getting it, or even me; Mrs D is a nurse so we've always had a chance of exposure. Nor is it about the risk of Covid to us against accident blackspots or anything else. It's a case of will kids going back at this stage re-ignite the whole thing and cause a second wave?
Kids will have a modicum of social distance forced upon them; and mandatory hand washing and sanitising.
No social distancing - bubbles. 15 kids and 1/2 adults with limited/no contact between bubbles.
The average sink to child ration in English schools is 1 to 30. That means each bubble has to share a sink with another. Which means disinfecting the area between uses. At 20 seconds washing per child, it takes five minutes per bubble to wash hands, even assuming zero changeover time.
The logistics are ridiculous: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2020/05/reopening-schools-question-logistics-not-risks-teachers
In a primary school the one teacher per bubble makes sense, as that's the teaching model for most primary schools, but it will still require twice as many teachers and classrooms as usual so isn't actually physically possible and requires teachers to possibly teach a different year group/topic to usual.
In a secondary, are kids just going to be babysat by a member of staff while they complete work set by their various subjects? Same for FE.
According to someone earlier in the thread, french schools went Back and only 70 new cases, which is good news.
(Re. Fears of 2nd wave)
You mean that yo don’t consider it backtracking to give a hard date when schools must open then change it to being a conditional date?
There was no hard date that schools "must" open. The whole of Boris's Sunday night speech was prefaced with "if tests are met...if it is safe to do so" but everyone missed or ignored it as everyone focused on the proposed date.
I hate the incompetent ****s as much as you, but I'll give them a fair trial before I hang them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02nrss1/episodes/downloads
More or Less is a statistics programme/podcast on Radio 4 and held in much esteem by many (including me).
I’m happy that the establishments will do everything they can to mitigate the chances of my kids getting anything or passing anything around.
Do you have any evidence to support that assumption, based on the way the UK government have handled the crisis so far?
There's a legitimate debate to be had about when kids should return to school, but I can't see how the vast majority of English schools could possibly be ready to do that by 1st June. It looks like a lot of people at the sharp end of the business are just saying no way, not possible.
If schools remain at the current limited opening then, with funding, there could be changes made to the school building - extra sinks in classrooms, temporary partition walls in halls and dining rooms, additional entrances to the school grounds, fencing to divide up playgrounds, etc. - and recruitment of additional staff, which would allow safer, fuller opening in the autumn term.
*places tin foil hat on head*
Of course, if your plan is to use school opening as a tap to turn on/off the rate of infection to achieve herd immunity without overwhelming the NHS...
More or Less is a statistics programme/podcast on Radio 4 and held in much esteem by many (including me).
+1
The average sink to child ration in English schools is 1 to 30
I doubt that includes hot water, my science lab doesnt.
I do think this partial opening over the summer term is a test of facilities and transmission rates with a view to greater opening in September.
My lad is a potential Year 12 guinea pig in this experiment. He's pretty confident that college wouldn't expect them in unless they felt they had a suitable and sustainable way of doing it. He's also aware that his A levels and uni entry next year will depend on everyone judging it right.
The exact wording of PM speech was:
In step two – at the earliest by June 1 – after half term – we believe we may be in a position to begin the phased reopening of shops and to get primary pupils back into schools, in stages, beginning with reception, Year 1 and Year 6.
A few of those words seem to have been forgotten along the way and taken 1 June as anything more than a target for schools to prepare by.
I’m not even sure to what extent schools that have academy status (as many are now) can be forced to do anything.
Our local school is doing bubbles. or something like it. instead of five full days, jr will get two half days. I make that a class size 10% of the full size class. This means they can get spread out nicely.
I assume the two teachers the class usually has, will be split between the new small classes, and will stick with one half of the classes for the duration.
I think in the rush to expose the problems with the plan, the actual details of the announcement got drowned out
Edit - which has put a lot of unnecessary pressure on schools, staff and parents.
Not wanting to divert the discussion, but I just want to pick up on this point about hand washing:
I doubt that includes hot water, my science lab doesnt.
Water temperature is not a critical factor in hand washing. The necessary chemical reaction will occur with cold tap water. It's the time spent applying soap and the technique which are critical.
Here's an excellent article explaining the science:
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/3/11/21173187/coronavirus-covid-19-hand-washing-sanitizer-compared-soap-is-dope
The BMA were advising against the return to school but last night gone fully against it and said its OK..... ****in stinks, how do you sleep at night
The BMA were advising against the return to school but last night gone fully against it and said its OK….. *
Thats not what they said though as far as I can see.
From beeb, full article behind times paywall if anyone can cut and paste
The doctors' union, the British Medical Association, said schools should reopen "as soon as it is safe to do so", but warned "a zero-risk approach is not possible".
"This is about 'safe' being an acceptable level of risk," the BMA's Dr Peter English wrote in the Daily Telegraph.
That is still inline with a different bma person saying its not safe for 1st June.
No one believes schools shouldnt open if safe and safe will still pose some risk. The debate is when is it safe and what the risks are and when are they acceptable.
Looks like I'm back in from start of june with fave to face meetings with 10's and 12's...lots of "where possible" in RA!!!
now as it stands dont know when I need to be in school or between which times and neither does my partner with her school and we don't know if our sons primary has a place for him but we do know that without before or after school provision we both cant work at the same time.
A concern of mine is that whatever the measures schools put in place a good number of local kids walk via the park and skateboard ramp, meet their mates etc. That could be stirring it up and when the boarding school lot come back that too could be a logistical petri dish.
My friend teaches at the local school. They want to bring back year 6 (among others). For distancing they would need to go from classes of 30 to 15 kids. So 4 teachers needed, instead of 2. Plan is to use year 3 teachers.
Which mean year 3 would now have no on-line learning or pastoral care at all. My friend had refuses to abandon her class.
Perhaps the Government would like to release funding to pay for the additional teachers required.
Looks like we're continuing with just online, while "exploring options" for face-to-face. Our main issue is that Y12 is 50% of our College, and that a third of them travel considerable distances on coaches to get to us while almost all the rest use public transport.
Also impossible really to have one fixed teacher per small group of students as they're all doing various A-levels.
Our summer is earlier, so we on'y have four weeks between half-term and the summer anyway. Back in on the Monday after A-level results day.
I've just read that 50 French schools have just closed down again having eased off a week ago.
Primary school in Derby is closed after two cases. I think I'm vaguely reassured that it seems to be the first localish school to have had an outbreak since lockdown, in a city that was a bit of a hotspot. Although only 3 miles from us as the virus flies.....
I think I’m vaguely reassured that it seems to be the first localish school to have had an outbreak since lockdown,
Given schools are largely empty apart from a few key worker kids thats not great though. I also wonder what the delay was between suspected infection 1 and lock down given the lack of testing and also how many asymptomatic kids had it if we presume the two cases are adults?
interesting article about almost certain second wave...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/20/top-eu-doctor-europe-should-brace-itself-for-second-wave-of-coronavirus
i expect if the school return that 2nd wave will happen alot sooner...I read a interesting reason for the push to reopen schools, it gives deflection for the torys, making teachers into scapegoats.
The 1st of June was a conditional date, the five tests still apply, testing and tracing is clearly our priority
Now I’ve notice it at PMQs, it’s popping up all over the place… the government comms people have already been working hard to get rid of “isolate” from track/trace/isolate… and now they’re busy getting us to forget about “track”, at least for now. Perhaps it’ll come back when they have a decent app for us.
i expect if the school return that 2nd wave will happen alot sooner
Could be, I am also concerned about the intended consequence of schools reopening which is that more adults go back to work its not a simple calculation of the risk to kids and teachers.
Paediatric fecal-oral shedding https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0817-4
I simply cannot see how a child does not contribute to transmission. Seroprevalence surveys are underway. I bet they look similar to adults, but with much reduced morbidity.
Characteristics here https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2005073?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed
Prior belief from previous SARS-COV-1 here
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/117/6/e1156
Just because they don't have lots of symptoms does not stop them shedding virus.
Based on the amount of kids in groups out in the woods today they may as well send back years 10, 11 and 6th form back. They’re socialising anyway so they may as well get educated whilst they do it, as opposed to getting stoned and drinking.
I suppose they could have been family groups, family groups where brothers snog sisters...