[Closed] Sending kids back to school

Here’s a radical suggestion. Why not stop teaching at the end of June (or even sooner) and go back in early August – like Scotland normally does? Obviously that would need some clear messaging around summer travel as otherwise those still expecting to fly to Majorca in August will be irate. I dare say that there would be some unhappy teachers in that situation too – but there will be unhappy teachers no matter what.

Have you ever tried to motivate and manage teenagers when they perceive something is not fair? They will still see the summer holidays as exactly that. Any that do come (if it were to happen) there could be significant motivation/behaviour issues, and lots would refuse. How would schools manage attendance? How would you manage the progress of the significant minority (at least) who wouldn't attend?

Then what about teaching staff/support staff terms and conditions? Teachers are not averse to hard work; schools are open currently and have been staffed throughout Easter holidays for children of key workers and vulnerable students. Teachers not in school on rota are working bloody hard preparing, running and marking online lessons.

Staff will rise to the challenge, but please don't be derogatory towards school staff when you clearly don't understand the whole situation.

I teach post 16 and the recent weeks have actually done a lot of good to my students with their coursework. It will vary depending in the course but its helped mine become more independent and motivated. Some that don't usually communicate well have been improving significantly and becoming more self aware of their own progress. Sure there are some who have done no work, but they will learn that they wont be spoon fed everything.

Can you imagine how hard it will be to motivate the students around the 15th Dec if they go back at the start of August!

Simon that petition is a load of rubbish.

1. It doesn't define what safe looks like, people's definitions will vary wildly.
2. Sharing the government's modelling, most people won't have the skills to interpret it properly.
3. It's more complicated than preventing covid 19 deaths, there is a tipping point where extending the lock down causes more harm and deaths from other causes, abuse, poverty, reduce funding for the NHS due to the economy tanking, mental health.
4. It's Boris Johnson's administration so.......squirrel.
5. What MoreCashThanDash said about big boy pants.

I guess the other bit I am wondering is what will they do with wrap around child care that a lot rely on, plus it will be 6 weeks to the summer holidays so are the kids clubs going to be available as if not then why bother sending them back for 6 weeks risk when by Sept the infection level should be substantially lower

what MoreCashThanDash said about big boy pants.

16 years on the forum and this could be my legacy.....🤦

Thanks guys.

Just checked my analytics and it looks like we have received 125 new petition signatures from this site alone!

Apologies to those who could not get through. (Looks like the linky was not working for everyone.)

Find a new link below..... Hopefully this one will be even more effective!

Thanks again.

Can you join me and sign too? Click here: https://actionnetwork.org/forms/open-schools-when-it-is-safe?source=email&

Have you ever tried to motivate and manage teenagers when they perceive something is not fair?

I have, I’m not sure why you thing they’d perceive starting their holidays three weeks earlier and then going back three weeks earlier as inherently unfair.

How would schools manage attendance? How would you manage the progress of the significant minority (at least) who wouldn’t attend?

Probably the same way as if you send schools back before summer and some parents or pupils decide “it’s too high risk”...

Then what about teaching staff/support staff terms and conditions? Teachers are not averse to hard work;

Like I said some would be unhappy. Some would be pragmatic. Some will be more unhappy teaching pupils f2f in June/July. Some will be more concerned that the education is suffering, and next year will be worse...

Staff will rise to the challenge, but please don’t be derogatory towards school staff when you clearly don’t understand the whole situation.

i haven’t been derogatory - you need to be less tetchy. Lots of people in both private and public sector are doing things which were unimaginable 8 weeks ago, and all sorts of employees facing unpleasant choices - all take two weeks holiday during lockdown (with nowhere to go) or we have to furlough 50% of the staff being one I know quite well;

Can you imagine how hard it will be to motivate the students around the 15th Dec if they go back at the start of August!

If only there was a country with similar demographics but a different school calendar you could consult to see how it works?

Can you imagine how hard it will be to motivate the students around the 15th Dec if they go back at the start of August!

That term is a killer at the best of times!!

That term is a killer at the best of times!!

Kids here usually start back around 18th ish August, and get a long weekend 5 weeks later, and then 10 days in October too, canny be that bad?.

There is something about it. Where you typically are in the course. The fact maybe that the nights are drawing in as the term goes on. Maybe it's that the end of the course is not in sight. For older students its full of ucas applications too. Whatever, it always feel like the toughest term.

However - knocking this term on the head early and going back early and maybe extending half term on inventing a bank holiday would not be the worst idea in the world. There maybe a nice time in with the autumn A levels in England - bring the old yr13 students back to do their exams whilst the rest of the kids are on extended half term.

There maybe a nice time in with the autumn A levels in England – bring the old yr13 students back to do their exams

Wont they be at Uni?

Have you ever tried to motivate and manage teenagers when they perceive something is not fair?

I have, I’m not sure why you thing they’d perceive starting their holidays three weeks earlier and then going back three weeks earlier as inherently unfair.

How would schools manage attendance? How would you manage the progress of the significant minority (at least) who wouldn’t attend?

Probably the same way as if you send schools back before summer and some parents or pupils decide “it’s too high risk”…

Then what about teaching staff/support staff terms and conditions? Teachers are not averse to hard work;

Like I said some would be unhappy. Some would be pragmatic. Some will be more unhappy teaching pupils f2f in June/July. Some will be more concerned that the education is suffering, and next year will be worse…

Staff will rise to the challenge, but please don’t be derogatory towards school staff when you clearly don’t understand the whole situation.

i haven’t been derogatory – you need to be less tetchy. Lots of people in both private and public sector are doing things which were unimaginable 8 weeks ago, and all sorts of employees facing unpleasant choices – all take two weeks holiday during lockdown (with nowhere to go) or we have to furlough 50% of the staff being one I know quite well;

Some fair points. Interestingly our school was asked to possibly prepare for working during summer break about 4 weeks ago.

The issue that concerns me most is the students that don't attend, if we go back at a different time. Our county support for attendance was non-existent before the crisis; whatever happens need to be clearly communicated by Gov (if they are capable of that) and some system put in place of for those that refuse to attend.

Wont they be at Uni?

It's looking very messy.

Firstly it is a buyers market - I'm sure you've seen Manchester predicted figures. Plenty will be getting in on significant dropped grades. Those students who were reliant on some pretty impressive last minute leg work (this would have been me) and for whom the schools have some pretty shonky evidence to predict grades have seen their chance to lastminute.com their way out of a hole evaporate will still miss out. I just hope the ones that do get in on dropped grade don't get shelled out with £Ks of debt after the first year because they were not degree material all along.

Government has promised A level exams in the autumn for those that don't get the school generated grades they need. Best guess at the moment is they happen in late October.

Some unis are saying they will allow students to start without the grade and allowed to continue if they get the grades in the autumn.

Some are saying they will allow a delayed Jan start for those who need to get grades in the autumn. A few of those are saying they will be offering online 'study along at home' courses for those not yet accepted.

Others are saying a student who needs to use those exams will have to start their degree courses in 2021

Students applying need to be ringing their offer unis and checking as each is different.
UCAS decision date is pushed back to June 18th rather than last week as it would have been normally.

No one has yet published what happens for A levels with coursework components that were not formally submitted as they would have been in the next few days when it comes to pupils using the autumn exams.

The Scottish term is organised differently and therefore comparible over the year. The Scotish autum/ winter term is around 17 weeks with a 2 week break where as in England it is 15/16 weeks with a 1 week break. It is being implied (not necssarily on here) that studenst would go back in August making a 19/20 week term with 1 week break.

that makes it harder because unlike in Scotland it will be completely new for studnest in England which will play on their sense of injustice making the job of motivation harder not impossible. this will impact on the quality of education whether the public agree or not.

signed simon,
bit of a rant now (2/10 no caps no swearing etc)
Mrs G in 50s as are many staff in secondary, Working from home spending as much time setting online work as 'normal ' lessons, so was fuming when heard some tool on any answers say stay off for now then teach through summer hols cos they are all on a holiday atm FFS Like most teachers never knows when to call a stop, had bad chest etc back in jan/ feb finally went to docs...a virus! go home and rest ... dont think cv19 but who knows? rambling a bit now, but not happy with her going back any time soon. ( colleague had been on exchange teaching visit to China end of last year, some kids been on ski trip at feb half term.. TO N italy (none were quarantined).

Cheers Jag61....

Yes... Bloody nightmare setting work on-line.

Stay safe.

My lads 6th form college have suggested they are trying to figure out the logistics of having the Year 12s in for one lesson per subject per week, if they are able to reopen after May half term

1200 kids going in for 3x one and a half hour lessons over 5 days. Coming in from towns and villages in a 20 mile radius, and home again.

That's going to take some planning

Thread bump.

Scotland is fully back.
To be joined by England, Wales and NI over the next three weeks.

I'm placing a bet, having an insider's view of Education, that we are a month off various classes being sent home for a fortnight, or rolling closures of whole schools through lack of staff or infection concerns.
By the end of October we may well be back at home schooling...

Sorry to be the pessimist.

I saw they were at pains to stress yesterday that a small outbreak somewhere in Scotland was due to outside school mixing. Though presumably the kids involved will have been in their separate schools since getting infected?

Thread bump.

Scotland is fully back.
To be joined by England, Wales and NI over the next three weeks.

I’m placing a bet, having an insider’s view of Education, that we are a month off various classes being sent home for a fortnight, or rolling closures of whole schools through lack of staff or infection concerns.
By the end of October we may well be back at home schooling…

Sorry to be the pessimis

Going by what is happening at my wife's secondary school - no social distancing, no ppe, no hand sanitiser, minimal disinfectant sprays and no extra cleaning I fully agree. It's nuts & inevitable what's about to happen. Also saddening that it'll be coming into our household very soon. Kinda feel the effort we've gone to over the last 5 months has been for nowt.

MOAB I think you will see SOME individual schools closed for 3 weeks at a time (or maybe even clusters of schools - like a secondary and its associated primaries - not sure how that might work in areas where there is a less obvious geographic link to schooling); but I don't believe you are going to see the 4 countries closing all schools in October (bear in mind that schools north of the border have 1-2 weeks in October as breathing space) - the only reason for doing that is if disease spread is going faster than track and trace ability.

I agree that we are pretty much guaranteed to not have a smooth, consistent return to school. I think staff absence (through self-isolation) will have the first impact, and then bubbles/year groups being closed down once positive tests are seen in students.

I think government will ideologically resist full school closures for a stupid length of time after it becomes wise to do so again.

If my school is anything to go by, there is a pretty much unspoken understanding that we will be distance learning or a blended approach for much of this coming school year. That's certainly how we're planning things.

There is no way things are going to be fair for Year 11 and 13 students this year across the countries. Local closures, differences in provision, and staff absence are going to have a massive impact. Even with the already announced changes to next year's GCSEs it's impossible for there to be a level playing field IMO. I'll be Head of Year 11 in two weeks time and I'm really concerned for our year group...

given it has a 5-10 day incubation time any cases reported now in scotland will, more than likely, be pre-school mixing.

we have to get them back to school at some point!

there have been hordes of non-socially-distant school kids roaming the streets anyway - if they are goign to be in packs anyway they might as well get taught at the same time.

Was at school this AM (in Edinburgh) - handwashing stations in the playgrounds, hand santiser everywhere you looked. VERY well organised for both angst ridden middle class parents and mostly nonplussed children. I know a few of the teachers who are anxious but not overly worried about it all right now. Who knows but I doff my cap to the work the school has done.

We (large sixth form college in England) started back last Friday.

For the first three weeks our second years are still remote learning, with staff in College, because we need to enrol 1000 new first years students and the usual approach won't work so it's going to take a lot longer than usual.

On Sept 7th our second years start in college, with first years in the day after - alternating Y1 then Y2 for two weeks.

In theory, from the 21st we have all 2000 students on site for their normal timetable.

I concur with Matt and Polly, who more or less said rhe same thing. Social distancing in school is so challenging as to be effectively impossible. The ventilation remains poor. By the time a local outbreak is detected the toothpaste will be out of the tube, and it will take a 3 week minimum local lockdown to get the cap back on. It could be local whackamole, it could be much wider.

Coronavirus being spread in schools is a statistical certainty. My only hope is that the death rate seems to have slowed right down. It hasn't stopped though.

I think shielding has had a huge impact on controlling the death rate.
Even since shielding was ended by the government, I believe most shielded people have continued to act in a similar way as they know they are still extremely vulnerable. Employers have had to take vulnerability into account too due to h&s law.
Most of the "new" spread has been in the "pub going" age groups that believe they can cope with the virus, and in most cases probably can.

The problems are going to come with the schools reopening when the kids of "pub goers" and the kids of "ex shielded" mix. For many vulnerable people, it's the only route for the virus into the household that they can't defend.

I'm pretty confident the school and college our two go to will have done all they can to minimise the risks, but kids are kids and no system is foolproof.

We certainly need to get as many kids back to school as is possible, for their education, for their mental health, for their parents mental health and their ability to do their jobs without having to homeschool at the same time.

I don't expect it to go smoothly, I expect some local closures, I expect some remote learning over the course of this year. I have the utmost respect for teachers trying to deal with all this.

I'm worried it could go badly wrong - the kids will see their grandparents this week and maybe once more before they return to school, and that will be it until at least October half term. They are all 80plus and at risk.

I'm clinging to the thought that detected infection rates are up but deaths are down, treatment options seem much better (unless hospitals get swamped), kids have been mixing over the holidays more widely, and none of the worst doom mongering predictions about VE day, Bournemouth beaches, shops and pubs reopening have proved correct so far.

Loum, the spikes have been repeatedly blamed on transmission in the home amongst family members breaking the restrictions in the north of England, ironically not through mixing in the pubs despite the ridiculous mixing we've seen.

I can see schools returning make this worse. I also think a lot of schools will shut down at some point due to lack of staff, between those with genuine health risks, those that actually get it and those that use any excuse to take time off, (unfortunately every school has a proportion of them as it's rare for a teacher to sacked on attendance grounds) there won't be enough staff in place to keep the kids safely supervised.

@loum I have to agree. As a person who was (with all intents and purposes) shielding I feel we are now entering possibly the more dangerous phase for the 'ex shielders'. We as a household have been exceptionally careful over the past 6 months and thankfully been unaffected however our 7 year old daughter returned to school this week and we know other families have been much less vigilant.

We have been super careful upto now but feel as if now have an open path into the home from essentially any of the other less vigilant families from the school. All we can do is monitor if there is even a single case in her school that's it, she's out for the foreseeable.

Personally I'm struggling with it a little but seeing the joy and excitement on our daughters face coming home from school after being stuck at home with boring mum and dad for 6 months is priceless.

those that actually get it and those that use any excuse to take time off,

Thing is if you start coughing you shouldnt go to work. Its attitudes like yours that led to the shitshow in April and May.

Loum, the spikes have been repeatedly blamed on transmission in the home amongst family members breaking the restrictions in the north of England, ironically not through mixing in the pubs despite the ridiculous mixing we’ve seen.

I think they've said *mostly* through transmission in the home, which is always likely to be the case - 1 person brings it into the home then you've a whole household with no social distancing, shared facilities in the same space for 12-24 hours a day. Then your household mixes with another, and that entire family is eventually infected too. I'd be amazed if pubs were not a significant vector in infecting that first person. And sadly, schools will be too. I think it will come down to schools or hospitality and this govt will choose the wrong one 🙁

AA, there you go again, are you that dismissive and condescending with yor pupils as well. That's not what I'm talking about, anyone showing symptoms obviously shouldn't go in and should go and get tested. The school system copes under normal circumstances despite the high absence levels from certain staff members, combine that lack of attendance from that group plus people ill with Covid or showing potential symptoms and staff who are more vulnerable to covid will initially put a lot more stress on the staff who are working, it won't be sustainable indefinitely.

And you can keep your ill informed and insulting assumptions about my attitudes to yourself, I've worked from home since the start of lockdown, not been out to the pub or unnecessary shopping, haven't been socialising in other people's houses, have kept away from parents and havent been on holiday.

Richpenny, not the message were being given up north, transmission is between households and has tended to be within communities that aren't frequent pub goers. I must admit the scenes outside bars locally don't look great, maybe it's political but the message is coming from local not national government. Fully agree though that schools will become major vectors as kids from different geographical areas and communities mix. I think the government has already prioritised hospitality over schools.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-53828588

A house where about 200 people attended a lockdown party has been subjected to a three-month closure order with only the owner allowed access.

Greater Manchester Police (GMP) and Manchester City Council obtained a court order after a party at the house on Harlow Drive, Gorton, on Saturday.

Officers were hit with missiles as they tried to break up the gathering.

Insp Jim Adams of GMP said: "This incident was completely unacceptable and incomprehensible."

He added: "I am pleased that the court has accepted our application to extend the 48-hour closure notice to ensure that there are no further illegal large gatherings at this property."

GMP has already issued a £100 fixed penalty notice to a 27-year-old woman who organised the party.

I get that it's in a house and not actually within a pub, but it's "pub going" aged socializers having a good drink up.

But it doesn't really matter how you classify it. there's people that are mixing and have kids, and there's people that are vulnerable- effectively shielding- and have kids, and the schools will be the only transmission vector into some of those vulnerable people.
Those banging on that all children need to get back into school for mental health reasons really need to have a good think about the mental health of the kids that will become virus transmission routes to kill vulnerable family members.

I get that it’s in a house and not actually within a pub, but it’s “pub going” aged socializers having a good drink up.

So not in a pub then, which locally at least have been trying to keep people a) outside b) socially distanced and c) doing track and trace as best they can.

I'm not a fan of pubs being open again, and haven't been to one, but my doubts about the risks of opening them haven't been proved right yet. Somehow it seems to just about be working. I'd happily see them closed again if it means schools can open more safely

AA, there you go again, are you that dismissive and condescending with yor pupils as well.

Nope I save it for those that deserve it such as you.

Been back for 9 days and it's not fun. No social distancing between pupils, no ability for staff to social distance from pupils. Another timetable model coming in. I've been teaching for 18years and never felt so underpepared.

Hmm. What was that comment about whack-a-mole?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-53840123

The Mash nails it again

Gavin Williamson ‘incredibly sorry’ for next month’s schools reopening shambles

Williamson only has one job now, take the flak and resign when told.

But it doesn’t really matter how you classify it. there’s people that are mixing and have kids, and there’s people that are vulnerable- effectively shielding- and have kids, and the schools will be the only transmission vector into some of those vulnerable people.

This. Those most at risk are still being careful, while others at lower risk are increasingly taking the ‘get back out there’ messaging at face value. Those different demographics combine when schools return.

Oh, and those needing to shield should still be getting the support they need. “Pausing” shielding should have been optional, on a case by case basis, rather than pulling food parcels and telling at risk people to get back to work or go broke. And the rest of us should be acting to protect them as well. Including the government providing the funding and help needed to enable children at risk, and the children sharing a home with people at risk, to learn and contribute to school life from their homes. This is 2021, we have the tech to achieve that.