[Closed] Selling land I don't own. How much?

£10k...it's a kind of ransom strip and he needs to pay the ransom

you have it he wants it, depends how badly he wants it really. Ask how much he's willing to offer as this seems key to him getting the sale of his house.

Minimum 5k. That's how much I had to pay to bribe my previous owner to sign the eb-bloc garage to my old house over to me when I came to sell.

Also, about the same price as a decent new bike. Just saying.

Depends where you are and the difference in value to him in adding a driveway.

^ Yeah, a decent bike. Treat yourself.

Also, about the same price as a decent new bike. Just saying.

£12.5k if the latest mag is anything to go by!

Surely its the value of the bit of land, plus half of the bit he grabbed, plus cheeky **** tax?

Value of the land plus the current value of the strip he grabbed when your dad died. Dish served cold.

EDIT: Sorry, is he now asking to buy the land he grabbed?

"Several grand and the strip of land you helped yourself to."

So this person pulled a fast one on you previously, and now wants goodwill to take his sale over the line? I'd be going in very hard.

10% of his house sale price! 🙂

What cougar said. A few k and he signs back the land he decided to grab. He pays the fees too.
Out of interest what is he trying to sell the house at? If lots then put the amount up to 5k. But make sure you get the land back for your garden and boundary. He is a cheeky f***, plus the new owners could be crap about it

Or hold out for 5 years until it's cost you both 100k in legal fees and you are headline news in the Daily Mail - with a photo of you at the end of your drive, arms crossed and with a sulky face on! 🙂

Real answer is - how far are you going back to when he 'acquired the land' at the land registry. If a few months then dispute it with Land Registry, get your land back and tell him to foook off.

If we're going back years I don't see what you can do as the land is his at the Land Registry.

Any dispute would pretty much kill his chances of selling it for the immediate future, so he is well and truly over a barrel. Name your price and make sure you make him sweat hard in the interim.

As above the very last thing he will want is a neighbour dispute if he is trying to sell!

Doe he realise you know he grabbed the land? I guess you didn't want a dispute at the time as you were trying to get a mortgage. Let him know that you remember this and the reason you did not dispute it at the time.

Then get him to make you an offer?

He wants it, you don't particularly have a need to sell it so its up to him to name his best price. Nobody else is going to want to buy it.

Then get him to make you an offer?

I think the neighbour will likely only think that he was regularising an existing situation from the '60s as 'his' drive was always on the OPs land, but the fence was in-board. I will expect he will offer very little. OP should get in there first and ask for what he is thinks the value is or £12.5k for a mega-sled bike 🙂 - whichever is higher.

In the grand scheme of buying and selling most houses, 5-10k isn’t really a fat lot. So I would definitely be looking well north of that. The idea above of 10% of the value of his house may be flippant, but it’s not a bad idea to somehow make it a proportion of the value of his house

To a degree the price depends on the value of the property. Personally however I would start with a high number, probably in the region of £30 - £50,000. See how much the neighbour is really willing to pay. No point taking £3,000 if they have already put aside £10,000+ contingency.
Also, definitely challenge the land grab. The land registry making a mistake (by taking the word of your neighbour presumably with no corroborating evidence) doesn't mean that the neighbour now owns your land. I have been through a similar thing (but with a local council trying to claim a small front garden). There is likely to be an original plan somewhere (even if unregistered) showing the ownerships. Ultimately someone will visit the property and presumably see quite clearly what the 'historic' ownership has actually been.

Where is the land he registered recently? His drive you squiggled in blue? If he has gained a whole parking space that's a fair whack added to the value of his property...

I leased 2sqm of a paddock to the British Pipeline Assocation for £2500 plus all costs so £5k for 5sqm sounds about right.
You could probably push it some more seeing as it will give them a driveway.

I'd let him make the offer, he needs to buy it more than you need to sell it.

I'd be telling him as a minimum to agree to transfer back the land he "acquired" - sounds like he did so via fraud and the LR are VERY interested in fraudulent transfers of land. It's likely that if you can demonstrate that the land was your father's for the last XX no of years and shortly before registration he put in an application, the LR would overturn his application on title anyway.

So I'd be saying this to him: agree to a transfer of the land at the rear back into your title, and he pays all the legal fees, plus whatever amount you think is worth it for your bit of land at thr front (£10k sounds like a nice, round number to me) and he pays all application and legal fees for that as well.

If he doesn't go for it, tell him you'll notify the LR of a fraudulent transfer and see where that gets him...

What shocks me is that your house is built partly on leasehold land and partly on freehold land!!

Might be being dim but he has to drive over the yellow bit to get onto his own driveway? Or does the driveway not actually exist yet?

And where is the fence? On the line between the yellow bit and the red boarder? In normal day to day life since 1966 has the yellow bit ever felt like part of your garden? Do you now (or your dad back in the day) maintain that yellow bit?

A photo might help.

Do you know for sure if you dad actually owned it to start with if it wasn't registered and didn't just do a little land grab when everyone moved in. I guess 50 years ago with fewer households having a car the implication of that wee bit being owned by your dad might not have been appreciated for future drive designs. And is there not some benefit to you in terms of aesthetics him parking off road instead of parked up your street?

I think my view on it depends on if this is effectively correcting an error in the 60s (in which case rule 1 would seem to imply it's worth a slab of beer and a warm glow for doing the right thing) or if you are doing him a significant favour at an appreciable cost or inconvenience to you in which case its worth proper money.

But people who automatically think in terms of ransom strips to shaft a neighbour because they can tend to be chicken chokers in my experience.

edit - and this too...

What shocks me is that your house is built partly on leasehold land and partly on freehold land!!

Surely the correct response to someone who has acted like an arse in the past is to act like an arse in response.

Tell him you knew what he was doing at the time and even though you were given the option to contest it you decided not to so it didnt raise a dispute and effect your mortgage. Tell him its now time to raise a dispute in order to effect his sale.

Then let it sit for a while. He will either bury his head in the sand in which case you can kick him squarely in the bollocks by raising the issue legally or he comes back to you with an offer. Whatever happens you are in control.

Just to clear a few questions up.
It's the Yellow bit he grabbed, which is 2 foot higher than the pavement and fenced in. It's always been like that. The notch into his driveway is a brick retaining wall, again about 2 foot high.
So to actually use the drive way, he has to remove the wall and drop the land 2 foot. The driveway is at a 35 degree angle, you can't actually get a car up it. So his plan is to flatten it and make a car port.

He grabbed it about 2 years ago now. I called him on it when he did it. Claimed his solicitor must have done it when getting his house valued ready for sale. But as I didn't want to dispute, because I was about to complete, I just decided sod it.

The freehold bit at the front gives me half the head of the close and half the road in front of my house.

Some parking spots around here were being sold for £18k each a few years ago. I'd hang out for a fair whack, what is there to lose? Are there properties sold in the area with/without parking that might give you a guideline? Don't be distracted by the size of the strip, it's a much bigger deal than that.

My thinking is, he asking you to name a price. Figure in to that the cheeky **** pinched it in the first place, how desperate is he to settle this quickly, how far are you prepared to go to dispute this? How much value would this acquisition add to his houses selling price? I assume that there is no love lost here, followi g his cheeky land grab. If he legitimately thought he owned that land, why would he offer you a price anyway? Theres probably more to it than that, but Id be thinking along those lines.
Offer to buy it off him, seeing as he 'owns' it, then double the price he offers you, for his brass neck. I wouldnt normally advocate tit for tat, but **** 'im, he created this mess, he can cough up to sort it.
And its not about the size of the strip of land, its about how much value it adds to a house which is unsellable as is, but eminently more sellable with your little strip flattened and tarmaced.

How long do you have to file a dispute with the land registry?

If the land is clearly fenced off and at a different level to his, and has been throughout the history of your father's ownership, I'm not sure how he can defend it if you dispute.

Do you have a friendly estate agent that can offer thoughts on the value of his property with and without off-street parking, and you could use that to guide your price?

The opportunistic way he took it as soon as your dad died should come back to bite him, really.

eh? this still doesn't make sense. Is this right:

So the yellow bit is fenced in - to your garden? Thus making the precedent that is yours really.

His solicitor noticed the yellow bit was unregistered so he grabbed it (no way he didn't know what he was doing, probably hoped you would sell the house immediately and he could move the fence on your completion day as of course your deeds wont show it).

Now he wants to sell his house first, and knowing what he did has rather embarrassingly has gone begging to you to make it right.

I'd still ask him to make an offer first, and for him to bear in mind that this has been bugging you for years and you want to avoid a falling out.

I assume you don't particularly want the land anyway.

I’d let him make the offer, he needs to buy it more than you need to sell it.

Is what I'd do. His offer will determine how serious he is about it, if its a cheeky low ball you can just laugh it off and say no thanks.  Where as if you say £5k and he's factored in £10k he'll probably snap your arm off. You have something he wants, let him work for it not the other way about.

Totally confused. You said he grabbed some land, and that he also now wants to buy some land....

All good so far.

... but then you say that the bit he wants to buy is the bit he already grabbed?

Which bit have I misunderstood?

Claimed his solicitor must have done it when getting his house valued ready for sale.

Who gets their solicitor involved when valuing their own house for sale?

He's been eyeing that strip of land for a while, knew your dad wouldn't stand for it being annexed, so tried to do it stealthily when he died. And failed, mainly because he thought you'd sell up and disappear, and you didn't.

but then you say that the bit he wants to buy is the bit he already grabbed?

He's grabbed it, but realises he has no chance of holding on to it if OP disputes with the LR. So is desperately trying to avoid a dispute that would scupper his house sale by offering OP money.

What can be said it that 50 years ago some absolute knobber of a developer royally ****ed up the land division and registering. So you don't own some of the land your house is built on but you do own part of the road.

You also own half the road and the head of the close? Is that not a shit ton of trouble coming your way. Nice of the council to maintain the tarmac for you. Any potential for getting charged for maintaining water pipes etc which turn out to be on your land.

How long until the leasehold underneath you comes up for renewal?

Messy.

Also confused.

Can a parcel of land be registered to someone without being actually owned by them? A bit like a V5 doesn't actually need to name the legal owner of the vehicle.

I think martinhutch has pretty much hit the nail on the head there, as I see it.
Seeing as he is selling ,you wont be neighbours long, so go very hard indeed.

Offer to buy it off him, seeing as he ‘owns’ it, then double the price

Genius.

… and if you do sell make sure it’s liberally planted with frozen sausages the day you hand it over.

Martinhutch has this right. It's all about the value of his parking space isn't it. If it adds 20k then I'd say you want to see 50% of that. And give it to your Dad's favourite cause if it feels a bit grubby.

Getout there now and start planting daffodil bulbs, be sure to give him a cheery wave and a wink as you're doing it

I’d let him make the offer, he needs to buy it more than you need to sell it.

+1

Also, how well did your folks get on with him?

As in, if they didn't 'cos he was an arse - play hard.

But if he helped your folks thru cancer say, then that's different and I'd be 'reasonable'.

Get him to ask a few local estate agents to give a valuation. See what the average is.

I would normally be one to say - be reasonable in this sort of situation but given the fact he has been pretty nasty over this then I would be harsh

Id be thinking 10% of the value of the house because an off road parking spot surely puts that on the value.

Ask him to make an offer. See what he comes back with

Is what I’d do. His offer will determine how serious he is about it, if its a cheeky low ball you can just laugh it off and say no thanks. Where as if you say £5k and he’s factored in £10k he’ll probably snap your arm off. You have something he wants, let him work for it not the other way about.

This. Let him make the offer.

He 100pc has no claim on the land, as the OP says, this is about buying the OPs agreement to retrospectively regard a clerical error as fact.

The value is the value of a driveway/access less the price of constructing a driveway, less a *tiny* bit of profit for him.

Also is it worth *starting* the process of getting the clerical error fixed to hurry him along a bit?

Tell him its £12,950 in October, but goes up by £250 a month if he chooses not to go ahead. Its called dickhead tax.

Not getting this, who owns the yellow bit on title deeds? you can't just register bits of land and the point of employing a solicitor is to ensure you don't end up in court, it would appear he paid a solicitor to get that wrong.

Curious as to how you know he registered it, were you notified? and what was the driveway originally? does he actually own that? how did he end up with a driveway he can't drive up? does he access from your freehold? I'm wary of seeing this only from your point of view, there is often another side.

And lastly if that was me and you asked for £5k I would bite your hand off.

Ok firstly tell him you are reluctant to sell it, this will put him in an 'oh shiz' frame of mind, but you are willing to consider it, you were thinking of planting a tree in it, then don't speak just nod, if the figure is not enough plant the tree, whoever eventually buys the house will buy it.

whoever eventually buys the house will buy it.

This is an excellent point. You could even put a "for sale" sign up on it now so prospective buyers of his place see it is possible!

Did the deeds you hold for the house include the yellow land within the demise or was it just that it was included in the fenced extent on the OS map?
If it was included in the deeds then, unless there was a mistake back in the 60s and it was also included in your neighbours deeds then he must have made an application for adverse possession and was only likely granted a possessory title (or good leasehold if his house is also leasehold) these are easier to dispute than absolute titles.
1st thing I would do is contact the Land Registry and dispute the registration, if he currently holds any title over the land then if you can't agree a price to sell he could always rely on his limited title and sell anyway, you'd then be facing a legal battle with a new owner who might be more motivated to litigate.
I'm not 100% sure how you would be able to sell land you currently have no title to either, I'd guess that he would have to inform LR there was a mistake in his registration, they would check your deeds and rectify the titles to give you the land back, then you would have to transfer it to him.
Again, if your deeds show ownership of the yellow land then get that corrected first then discuss selling it back.

Is this another version of the allotment/ Israeli:Palestine conflict thread?

Tell him the starting point is re-instating the 'land grab' and all at his cost - inc legal and all other fees on your side.
Once that is done, to your satisfaction, you're prepared to negotiate the piece of land he wants but make clear that's no guarantee of reaching a deal.
As others ^^^ have said, local estate agent - price as is and price assuming land transfer which provides parking potential.
Your start point is 50% of the differential.
Definitely plant shrubs or trees in the space.

Definitely plant shrubs or trees in the space.

I think Fossy has some stuff you could put there

I assume that his proposed new flat parking area has an engineered design for the retaining wall and that he's served Party Wall Notice for the works?

Is the yellow bit any use to you other than to screw money from next door? Is it a result of anything other than a botch on the original division of the land with the houses? Just sell it him for a token amount and move on, "don't be a dick" works both ways.

Thanks for the input everyone.
I'll take some pictures tonight.

The yellow blob has been part of the garden since day one. The original deeds etc show the outline including the yellow bit and also extending into the close, to the halfway point. My Dad had to pay for half the close to be tarmac. the rest paid for the sliver that extended out from their gardens.

I've got pictures of me aged about 4 standing on that plot with the fence visible, wearing a lovely 70's jumper and holding my prized Lone Ranger figure 🙂

The freehold piece cost my Dad a fortune, back in the day. £2k including the solicitors fees. The whole house only cost £3.5k. I did a brief check regarding who owns the road for repair etc and it's not me. I explain it as, I own the land under the road.

The way I originally found out is that he told another neighbour that he'd found out the land wasn't registered and had put a claim in for the yellow blob.

FYI I've no problem with him as a neighbour, never have.

I'm a bit rusty on this but Stokes v Cambridge court case set a rule of thumb of a ransom strip being 1/3 of the uplift in value of the asset after removing it. How much would an off-street drive add to the value of the neighbour's house? £20/30k? A third of that is a good starting point.

Have I understood correctly:

The pink shaded bit is freehold.
The white bit that is also in the red border is leasehold.
The yellow bit he really wants to buy, and you don't mind getting rid of.

To my mind, the cost of the yellow bit would coincidentally be the same as the cost of buying the freehold for the bit of land you do need but don't currently own + the legal fees for both transactions!

Totally confused [nothing new there] as to how he managed to register a piece of land that is in 'your' deeds - only thing I can think of is that it was a mistake when the registry office originally put the land into its system. Either way I would think he has zero claim over it (he knows this which is why he's offering to buy it).

Just sell it him for a token amount and move on, “don’t be a dick” works both ways.

NOT this. It's land - they're not making it any more and it will add big value to your neighbours house.

Hi
The below is from an email message with the solicitor from when I was buying my Sister out of her half:

As you are no doubt aware part of the property is registered and part is unregistered. Having checked the unregistered deeds there appears to be a conflict on the area of land remaining unregistered and that part that has been registered. The title needs to be rectified before we can proceed.

It appears from what we can see that the title was part freehold and part leasehold but when the title was initially sent to the Land Registry in 1968 only the freehold papers were submitted to them which covers a much smaller area of land than is actually owned.

To enable us to rectify the title, we firstly need to prepare a full list of the un-registered documents we hold for the Leasehold title and submit that to the Land Registry for their consideration and request them to register the leasehold title documents. We also need to submit to the Land Registry the Grant of Probate to amend the legal owner of the property into your name.

Freehold bit

Leasehold used to extend by the same amount into the close.

This photo explains it. He wants to continue the wall down through "my" garden. Make the driveway level.

So he was a cheeky bastard in the first place and now wants to a) deprive you of a not-insignificant section of your garden and b) add off-street parking to his property?

£10k + costs plus 50% of the difference between current asking price and what he'll sell it for with off-street parking.

I would find out what % of the total land+ house he's selling the land makes up & charge the % of whatever he wants to sell it for.

If that's not enough, I'd come up with another way using the power of maths + inconvenience to you

So how can he not get some off street parking just by removing that wall and reworking the stairs etc?

This "I’d let him make the offer, he needs to buy it more than you need to sell it."

Then rule 1 applies. £5k plus paying your legal fees feels reasonable, any more than that is bonus. Then just carry on doing the nice stuff (new bike, holiday, C&H etc,). This sort of thing can drain the life out.

Seeing that photo, I revise my answer further up. I'd tell him to F right off.

This “I’d let him make the offer, he needs to buy it more than you need to sell it.”

Then rule 1 applies. £5k plus paying your legal fees feels reasonable, any more than that is bonus. Then just carry on doing the nice stuff (new bike, holiday, C&H etc,). This sort of thing can drain the life out.

This is my thoughts too.

It's a bloody silly bit of garden that I'd find more of an inconvenience than a positive that when all said and done should probably have been a broad bit of pavement in the first place with your garden squared off at the back.

More than £5K plus all costs (physical and legal) would seem like profiteering imo and I'm not that guy.

But.......would not be fancying the job of making that into off road parking and not undermining my own house.

TLDR but if neighbour (who sounds like a bit of a douche) wants that bit of land, I'd be asking how much the estate agents are saying his house is worth with and without a usable driveway. The difference is what it'll cost him. And I'd conduct this conversation whilst sitting on a sun lounger on that piece of grass sipping a pina colada.

Jesus.... that would be a steep drive!!

Sharkbait, that's why he wants to flatten it.
I believe the plan is to turn that drive into a garage.

I've no problem with his plan. Just wanted to know how much to ask?

Just wanted to know how much to ask?

5-10% of the value of his house Dickhead tax and off street parking is probably worth that much extra on his property

Garages in Edinburgh sell for £20 000 - £30 000 just for a garage

Looking at that picture - he doesn't need your land to make his driveway, he could move his steps and the wee strip of dirt beside them?

I think he is chancing his arm, hoping that you will not be bothered enough to research properly.

Get a quote for the work to reconstitute the steps and wall holding them up on his land one day when he is out. Add £5k "tax" - that is your number.

I believe the plan is to turn that drive into a garage.

Then it will be a fairly epic retaining wall!

Jesus…. that would be a steep drive!!

http://www.universaldesignstyle.com/bad-design-style-case-54/

Looking at that picture – he doesn’t need your land to make his driveway, he could move his steps and the wee strip of dirt beside them?

That was my 1st thought

Which is the bit he pinched from your garden?

I'd still get him to give you the land back first before entering any negotiations.

Unless you are happy with 5k in a brown envelope to keep your mouth shut.

5k isn't that much in the scheme of things and once the land is gone you aren't ever getting it back.  He has to make you an offer and you have to find it interesting. It isn't your job to solve his problems cheaply

Start a dispute devaluing his house, buy said house at a knockdown price. End said dispute. Sell yourself your own garden at a favourable rate build a drive or garage sell house. High fives all round.

Let him make an offer.

But I don’t ge this:

Id be thinking 10% of the value of the house because an off road parking spot surely puts that on the value.

Surely half of what it’ll add to his house? And that might not be as much an up lift in value as you think.

After all why should you get the full profit from what he’s doing? I’m f you make the all the increase then he has no motivation to do it.

If it doesn’t sell the land has little value to you - how much less would you expect your house to be worth if the garden were that much smaller? To someone who knew no better?

Give it to him ?. Aint worth the stress.

Be happy.

🙂

He's going to need to do some major civils to prevent his new garage and most of the rest of his house ending up in your garden if he digs that lot out

Eh?

So he is planning to park his car on your corner of garden and not use his steep drive?

But it's surrounded by pavement?! He would need council permission to cross the pavement on the whole of the two outward sides, and would end up parking on the pavement?!

I assume the roads are now adopted by council highways.

Surely he is never going to dig the steep drive out, underpin the house, build a retaining wall and then build a pokey garage just to sell the house! That would cost a fortune and be a eyesore for you.

Looking at the pic I think losing that corner of your garden would make it feel much smaller when stood in it. That could make £10k impact on your house value.

I would ask him to rectify his mistake nicely and tell him I am are not interested in losing garden. It's not worth what he would need to pay me, I can't imagine he will part with £20k for it.

After all why should you get the full profit from what he’s doing? I’m f you make the all the increase then he has no motivation to do it.

Dickhead tax after his behaviour in trying to steal the bit of land. Its a sellers market

Edit - also its something he wants and something the land owner does not need to do. Its going to add significant value to the house and to the current owners detriment.