[Closed] Segregated audience at Labour rally

Mr Harman will be in the doghouse I think.

Not the first nor the last example of political expediency in the face of an election.

The speakers at said event.

[img] [/img]

Tom Watson doesn't look too happy. Perhaps because he realised he'd just been photographed, darn press !

Maybe it means they speak to an audience that wouldn't have been able to hear them at all otherwise

Mr Harman will be in the doghouse I think.

Wow, I didn't realise Harriet Harman's fella was one of the key speakers, you couldn't make it up!

I don't have any problem with that at all. If a predominately Muslim audience wants men and women sitting in separated groups why would that be a problem? It doesn't seem to put women at a disadvantage to men, and I can't see why it would.

Is the problem because there are less women? There appears to a substantial amount of women at the meeting and certainly the ratio of women to men appears to be far greater than I would expect to see at my local trade union council meeting. I would be very surprised to see a 50/50 ratio at any political meeting.

I thought it was ironic that Andrew Neil should ask a Jewish woman to justify the arrangements for what appears to be very much a Muslim audience. And she clearly didn't know anything about it but was expected to give an explanation.

Why weren't the speakers segregated as well?

Fair play to Mr Dromey, though. Getting through that tricky all-female shortlist process so well.

Why should be I be outraged, is there a Daily Mail article to assist me?

ernie_lynch - Member

I don't have any problem with that at all. If a predominately Muslim audience wants men and women sitting in separated groups why would that be a problem?

So, if you'd attended with your misses and were told you couldn't sit with her you wouldn't have an issue?

One of those... if you are pandering for their vote probably best to not piss them off and respect their views

Not exactly progressive and impossible to defend [segregation] except to say its expedient.

Personally I would have preferred to have sat with the women mudmuncher. But I accept that Muslim women might prefer that I didn't.

Perhaps someone can explain why the men were at an advantage over the women at that meeting? Or why a meeting packed with apparently Muslim women suggests that the Labour Party isn't interested in 'championing women's rights' as the OP suggests might be the case?

EDIT : I'm actually very impressed indeed to see so many Muslim women attending a meeting organised by the Labour Party. I'm incredulous that this should be used as some sort of stick to beat the Labour Party with. How do other political parties fair?

Perhaps someone can explain why the men were at an advantage over the women at that meeting?

That's a very good point - the women were no more disadvantaged than Rosa Parks.

Mr Harman will be in the doghouse I think.

I doubt it - Harriet's wife, Jack, who was a union fat cat, managed to be selected as a candidate in a seat with an all woman short-list.

BTW from my past experience of canvassing for the Labour Party in predominately Muslim areas of Croydon I am impressed with the enthusiasm that Muslim women show in voting. Often much more enthusiasm than non-Muslim working-class women - the apathy shown by that demographic group can be quite depressing imo.

Labour are biggest scumbags of them all, two faced shite bags as slippery as an eel. If you like that kind of thing vote for it!

Ya, speaking with forked tongues double standard ...

I thought we are in the UK but that looks like separate world. Yes?

It looks like nothing change much really.

Integration ... ya right ...

🙄

I would have an issue if a woman wanted to sit anywhere, but was prevented.

I'm conflicted here - gender segregation is wrong and shouldn't be a part of modern society, but then there's the whole issue of impressing Western values on people of other cultures. But then we are a Western nation and this is happening in a supposedly progressive country.
Should we be advocates for such events if those in attendance are accepting of the gender segregation? What types of segregation are allowed in these circumstances and what aren't?

Labour are biggest scumbags of them all, two faced shite bags as slippery as an eel. If you like that kind of thing vote for it!

So the Labour Party creates the conditions where a substantial amount of Muslim women can engage directly in politics and they're "scumbags" and "two faced shite bags" for doing so. Yeah right.

This is just a pathetic excuse for halfwits who hate the Labour Party to attempt to score points.

Personally I would have preferred to have sat with the women mudmuncher. But I accept that Muslim women might prefer that I didn't.

I suspect they wouldn't mind. Their controlling, misogynistic husbands probably would though.

Perhaps someone can explain why the men were at an advantage over the women at that meeting? Or why a meeting packed with apparently Muslim women suggests that the Labour Party isn't interested in 'championing women's rights' as the OP suggests might be the case?

So what would your thoughts be if the audience had been segregated on race or sexual persuasion? Whites on the left, blacks on the right or heterosexuals on one side, gays and lesbians on the other?

Typical left wing double standards.

Well at least it wasn't in a University

http://leftfootforward.org/2013/12/a-future-labour-government-will-not-tolerate-gender-segregation/

Given that no one seems coerced in the picture, what's the fuss? Good to have people joining the political debate and to have hypocrisy exposed. Two birds, one stone.

They will be stereotyping women with the colour pink next! What's next free barbie dolls...?

Genius. How about...

Jew free event?
Black free events?

How about not pandering to the intolerant instead?

Typical left wing double standards.

Yeah I think we're getting to what this really all about.

Of course the Tory Party has a much better track record of engaging and listening to the views of Muslim women.

I can't imagine that many women turning up to a Tory Party public meeting, let alone Muslim women.

Imagine the Tories having the first woman Muslim cabinet minister. Surely not?

teamhurtmore - Member

5thElefant - Member

All the self-righteous Tories are turning up to condemn the Labour Party 🙂

Their controlling, misogynistic husbands probably would though

Of course the Tory Party has a much better track record of engaging and listening to the views of Muslim women.

I can't imagine that many women turning up to a Tory Party public meeting, let alone Muslim women.

No women at all here:

[img] [/img]

teamhurtmore - Member

Imagine the Tories having the first woman Muslim cabinet minister. Surely not?

And UKIP has black party members. Whadya know.

Good swerve, saves answering the point.

Thank you for making my point aracer - [i]I can't imagine that many women turning up to a Tory Party public meeting[/i]

I don't have any problem with that at all. If a predominately Muslim audience wants men and women sitting in separated groups why would that be a problem?

Ffs lynchmob really? Honestly do you really think gender segregation has a place in our society?

 

Ok lynch if that was your missus (assuming you have one) that was told to sit on the other side of the hall away from any males what would you do?

Really? I presume they don't play to empty audiences - they do after all get millions of voters - hence you were simply suggesting there was an issue regarding the proportions (I found plenty of pics of packed meetings, but none which allowed you to readily identify gender apart from the front few rows which I assumed would be carefully managed - I found the source of that pic amusing though)

Do you really believe that not many women would turn up to a Tory public meeting? I guess I probably know more Tories than you, and anecdotally quite a large proportion are women.

Good swerve, saves answering the point.

"back on topic" being your current favourite

saves answering the point.

Well if your and aracer's point is that I said no women or Muslims ever attend Tory public meetings then yes, I wouldn't be answering it.

If you want to deliberately claim that I said something which I didn't say then I won't bother.

Anyway, I've made my point 🙂

Well if your and aracer's point is that I said no women or Muslims ever attend Tory public meetings

😆 - so now you're complaining that I'm suggesting you made a point you didn't... by suggesting that I made a point I didn't!

ironically many here just sound like the politicians they're ironising.

Yes and it was countered and falsified. Still it was only imagination wasn't it? You can be let off.

So it's not just raining down South.

if that was your missus (assuming you have one) that was told to sit on the other side of the hall away from any males what would you do?

Its fair to criticise the segregation but to claim this highlights something about labour rather than politics is beyond disingenuous

All the most vocal here are the usual Tory suspects making a party political point.

Read my first post I have no desire to defend this but all the parties would have done the same

5thElefant, mitsumonkey, and bloodynora, I'm waiting for enfht to turn up.

Those Muslim-loving champions of tolerance.

It's Labour Party/Lefty bashing time 🙂

Ernie - you have dodged my main question, so I'll put it to you again....

So what would your thoughts be if the audience had been segregated on race or sexual persuasion?

Whites on the left, blacks on the right

or heterosexuals on one side, gays and lesbians on the other?

Thought not.

Junkyard - lazarus
Their controlling, misogynistic husbands probably would though
Ah the scholars of Islam are in the house then

I wouldn't claim or want to be a scholar of Islam, but I did have a good friend at university that sadly never made it back for her second year after going back to ****stan for what she thought was a friend's wedding only to find out it was her own forced marriage.

It's tough if you have to watch things through Red Tory lenses all the time though. By the time Today is aired, some story will have been cobbled together.

Nice anecdote thanks for sharing
I knew some christians who once did a bad thing and some Black people ...shocking eh. Can i be mean about "them all" due to this or not?

How do you feel about toilets segregating on gender?
Better or worse than ones that do it on race or sexuality?

Those Muslim-loving champions of tolerance.

😆

Its not great labour did this but it really is just right winger frothing here

free country means people are free to do things you don't agree with.

like ride a fixie.

Nice anecdote thanks for sharing

How do you feel about toilets segregating on gender?

[s]Ernie[/s] mudmumcher - you have dodged my main questions, so I'll put it to you again....

I wont really

Doesn't this say more about the audience than the platform?

Nice anecdote thanks for sharing

don't trivialise someone's real world experience.

How do you feel about toilets segregating on gender?
Better or worse than ones that do it on race or sexuality?

toilet separation is pretty universal and is related to safety, not the subjugation of women.

if I was giving a talk and they wantd to segregate people I wouldn't do the talk. However, if they don't want to sit next to woman thats their asinine choice.

looked like it was in a mosque mind you

+ 1 Slowoldman

poah - Member

if I was giving a talk and they wantd to segregate people I wouldn't do the talk.

In which case, maybe some of those women in the audience don't get to hear you, and the democratic process withdraws itself from them.

Sometimes, you get 2 bad choices. I'm not certain that in this case walking away would be the right thing.

Some communities separate themselves from others and maintain different cultural norms.

The degree of isolation is often the issue as what are seen as hard won rights by some communities are culturally alien to others.

Having said that I am not happy living in a society where the "forced marriage season" isn't a national scandal. Or where communities cut themselves off from the police choosing to implement their own system of justice for crimes such as armed robbery.

This is the UK now.

Remember the suffragettes moron, we don't need another womens revoution we have already had one.

"there's the whole issue of impressing Western values on people of other cultures."

This is absolute cobblers. Oppression of women has been a universal value for most of humanity's existence; fair treatment of women is not a Western value.

Toadying scumbags failing to stand up for their principles.

(as an aside, I'd call that a meeting, not a rally).

In which case, maybe some of those women in the audience don't get to hear you

And of course some of the women guest speakers too. Women weren't just in the audience they were also at the front speaking, giving their opinions, arguing their points, taking questions, etc. Including Councillor Jess Phillips (definitely a woman) Councillor Mariam Khan (a woman, a Muslim, and one of the organisers) and Shabana Mahmood MP (a woman, a Muslim, and a barrister)

Yes that's right, an audience consisting of women AND men sat listening to the views of women, including the local MP for Birmingham Ladywood a woman and Muslim elected by Muslims (including Muslim men) and non-Muslims to represent them. How did that happen?

I don't see anything bad in this at all, never mind "2 bad choices".

It seems that the person most outraged by this event is Nigel Farage, that well-known defender of Muslim women.

It reminds me of the EDL's campaign against the burka :

[img] [/img]

Bless their bleeding hearts.

Which brings me to the point had men and women not sat separately surely it still wouldn't have been acceptable if the Muslim women had worn veils - that symbol of "oppression". In fact let's be fair no meeting involving Muslims who follow their beliefs would have been acceptable.

In other words Muslims should be ostracised and excluded from the full political process. Disengaging Muslims and excluding them from the political process is the obvious way forward for these people. And it's the way to counter Muslim "extremism", obviously.

The meeting did not occur in a mosque btw poah.

as an aside, I'd call that a meeting, not a rally

Apparently they called it a "jalsa/rally".

I recognise their right to call it whatever they want to call it.

[img] [/img]

In which case, maybe some of those women in the audience don't get to hear you, and the democratic process withdraws itself from them.

Sometimes, you get 2 bad choices. I'm not certain that in this case walking away would be the right thing.

if I was giving a talk it wouldn't be about politics ha ha ha ha

The would be able to see me at a different venue were men and woman are free to sit where they want to.

ernie_lynch - Member

I don't see anything bad in this at all,

You have no issues with the gender segregation at all?

poah - Member

The would be able to see me at a different venue were men and woman are free to sit where they want to.

That's just it, would they? Or would they find it harder to attend without the guarantee of segregation? I don't know, in this case, nobody does without speaking to the individuals but I reckon it's possible.

It's a bit like "ban the veil, it's oppressive", which sounds great as a rallying cry, but ends up with some of the most oppressed people getting it even worse.

5thElefant, mitsumonkey, and bloodynora, I'm waiting for enfht to turn up.
Those Muslim-loving champions of tolerance.
It's Labour Party/Lefty bashing time

You have no issues with the gender segregation at all?

No of course not, why would I? If the Muslim community wants to organise a political meeting/rally and the women and men decide that they would rather sit separately then it's completely up to them as far as I'm concerned, it has nothing to do with me.

Obviously if they were being forced to do something which they didn't want to do then I might have an issue with that.

I don't tell people how they should live their lives, and I don't think others should either. That's why for example I'm so hostile towards homophobia despite the fact that just the very thought of two men engaging in sexual activity makes me wince.

I think it's a real cheek to tell other people how to live their lives and quite frankly none of anyone elses business.

Getting back to the meeting in question I think it is hugely encouraging to see the Muslim community within the Labour Party organising themselves.

This was not a case of the Labour Party organising a meeting for the Muslim community but Muslims organising a Labour Party meeting/rally, exactly as it should be, and what true democracy is actually about, ie, making your own decisions rather than relying on others to make decisions for you.

And it's clear from the both the audience and the speakers that Muslim women have an active role in UK society. It might well be the case that much more needs to be done but that is also true of wider British society, not least in the case of working-class women.

And just to give one small personal anecdotal example one of my local GPs is a young Muslim woman, it would appear that being both a Muslim and a woman hasn't held her back in life, despite what Muslim-haters would have you believe. Of course she might have been forced to become a doctor against her will, who knows, but she is an absolutely lovely and charming person who seems very happy in her job.

ernie_lynch - Member

and the women and men decide that they would rather sit separately

Are you being deliberately disingenuous here?

at what point does being indoctrinated in certain ideologies and the social pressure to conform with certain associated rules become being "forced into doing something"?
how can we operate as progressive and inclusive societies when segregation on the basis of gender exists and is at odds with a universal view on equality?

Are you being deliberately disingenuous here?

OK you obviously think that the people at the meeting/rally were forced to do what they didn't want to do despite it being organised by themselves. It's inconceivable that the women might have wanted to sit separately. Presumably you also think that Cllr Mariam Khan pictured in the leaflet was forced to wear a veil and my GP was probably forced to become a doctor. Everything that Muslim women do is forced on them, including Shabana Mahmood MP for Birmingham Ladywood.

Let's leave it at that, I can't see this going anywhere useful.

One of my greatest pleasures in life is to watch self-confessed diversity activists heads explode and how they then warp their own values around a new reality when they meet values that are clearly counter to their own and would usually make them rage out, if it weren't for the fact that those values belonged to a minority group.

Then again, I'm a ****.

[img] [/img]

^^^^^ Inhabited by idiots who have opinions that they think matter. I don't know why this world keeps turning.

Good for you Tom, I'm sure it fits in nicely with your Zionist views. Conversely I can't say that I get any pleasure from seeing those who purport to espouse tolerance to show so little tolerance.

It's a funny ol' world.

Well, if you think about it Ernie, twisting your own viewpoint in response to a minority viewpoint is the racist stance. It's saying that they don't know any better, so let them be.

Either feminist values are good for everyone and not just white women or they aren't.

I will continue being apathetic to just about everyone I meet who has an opinion on anything, cheers.

Let's leave it at that, I can't see this going anywhere useful.

One of my greatest pleasures in life is to watch self-confessed diversity activists heads explode and how they then warp their own values around a new reality when they meet values that are clearly counter to their own and would usually make them rage out, if it weren't for the fact that those values belonged to a minority group.

Tom_W1987 has got your number with this

"It's as frustrating as living on a planet full of starving people where you could occasionally point out food...." 😀

Either feminist values are good for everyone and not just white women or they aren't.

😆

You obviously don't read much of what I post otherwise you would realise how ridiculous that comment is.

I am notoriously un-PC and have no time for 'feminist' claptrap.

I don't engage in middle-class/Guardian Reader pontifications. I don't assume a self-righteous prerogative to tell people how they should speak because I went to university and now read the Guardian.

Nor do I waste my time arguing whether the person chairing a meeting should be addressed as chairman, chairwoman, chairperson, or just chair. I have actually known the start of meetings to be held up because herberts who learnt their politics from reading books wanted discuss bollocks like that.

Then me and you probably have a little more in common than you think Ernie......although I would regard myself as being supportive of feminism in general. Not all of it is "claptrap", I just can't be bothered with any of it.

ernie_lynch - Member

It's inconceivable that the women might have wanted to sit separately.

I think it's pretty inconceivable that the women got together and all said "Yeah, let's segregate from the men" and everyone was happy with that, yes. Do you think there was not one woman that was thinking "This sucks, why are we split like this"?

TBH I think the way you're immediately reducing the conversation to absurd extremes and caricatures of the actual arguments suggests you know how dubious your position is.

you may like this

I'll refer you to my comment : [i]"herberts who learnt their politics from reading books"[/i] 😉

EDIT : I see that you've edited out your recommendation that I read "A Farewell to Truth". Since a blank post would look a little strange I'll just leave as it is 🙂

Barghhh, you're irritating me more than usual today ernie. 😉

Its 1am, it's too late to be an obfuscating git lol.

Do you think there was not one woman that was thinking "This sucks, why are we split like this"?

Assume for a moment* that the problem is that for a load of the ethnically-specific muslim women in the audience, mixed seating would require them to choose to go a Labour meeting knowing they'd be shamed or shouted at by their father, husband, imam or whatnot.

Of course, Labour is delighted to talk to the ones who say “screw the patriarchy, I'm going to the meeting”, and all power to their elbow. But it doesn’t seem to me to be shameful to address the women who aren’t ready to have a row with their husbands as a condition of their political participation. Insisting on that point leaves you in the position of saying “[i]Labour is [u]so[/u] committed to gender equality that it cannot talk directly to women who are seriously constrained by patriarchal social structures in their daily lives[/i]”.

Unlike Ernie, I [i]am[/i] a middle-class Guardian-reading tosser, but I agree with him that there's a useful distinction between procedural stuff like seating or what you call the person chairing the meeting and substantive stuff. If you end up cancelling the meeting because of the seating arrangements, it's not clear you've necessarily won.

*sounds reasonably plausible to me, but don't know

🙂

ernie_lynch - Member
You have no issues with the gender segregation at all?

No of course not, why would I? If the Muslim community wants to organise a political meeting/rally.....

Wrong - It was a labour meeting for that constituency organised by a Labour councillor.

ernie_lynch - Member, and the women and men decide that they would rather sit separately then it's completely up to them as far as I'm concerned, it has nothing to do with me.

It was on the poster that there was a "woman's section", not sure they had much choice in the matter

If you'd been living in that constituency and wanted to attend with your misses you would have been separated.

...And why do we have to always assume that anyone of an Asian/****stani background is a muslim? There are more educated ****stanis who think religion and Islam is a load BS.

ernie_lynch - Member
I think it's a real cheek to tell other people how to live their lives and quite frankly none of anyone elses business.

As an atheist it concerns me Labour will drag our progressive society backwards with more faith schools pedaling this nonsense and more acceptance of this outdated religious dogma. We should be challenging their beliefs and trying to bring them into the 21st century not encouraging this. Ultimately if people want to believe in fairies, God, father Christmas or whatever that's up to them but we should draw the line when they start imposing their crazy beliefs on others.

Of course if Ed gets in he said he is going to criminalise Islamaphobia so after Thursday we might not be able to have these discussions anymore.

Spot on.

BigDummy - Member

Of course, Labour is delighted to talk to the ones who say “screw the patriarchy, I'm going to the meeting”, and all power to their elbow. But it doesn’t seem to me to be shameful to address the women who aren’t ready to have a row with their husbands as a condition of their political participation.

Yep, exactly how I feel about it. Refusing to speak at a segregated event, IF there's discrimination involved in the segregation, punishes the people being discriminated against.

Of course if Ed gets in he said he is going to criminalise Islamaphobia so after Thursday we might not be able to have these discussions anymore.

I haven't seen anything islamophobic in this discussion. I reckon there are a few islamophobes posting though.

[post edited to include quote]

As an atheist it concerns me Labour will drag our progressive society backwards with more faith schools pedaling this nonsense and more acceptance of this outdated religious dogma

are any of the major parties against faith schools?

personally I think they should be banned, sadly both ed and dave want the votes

Ultimately if people want to believe in fairies, God, father Christmas or whatever that's up to them but we should draw the line when they start imposing their crazy beliefs on others.

Of course if Ed gets in he said he is going to criminalise Islamaphobia so after Thursday we might not be able to have these discussions anymore.

Well you should have said when you first started this thread a day ago mudmuncher, that the real issue for you here wasn't anything to do with the seating arrangement at a meeting, but that you are just one more tedious EDL type Muslim-hater.

It would have been more honest.

Although I can see why you didn't, it allowed the usual bigots to crawl out of the woodwork and some well-intentional people to stick their oars in, all in apparent concern for the seating arrangement.