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I'm not talking flash ones, I'm talking pretty non-descript ones.
F'rinstance, take this ad from the work intranet classifieds site:
SEAT Leon 2012, Diesel, Automatic leather heated seats, only 73,000 miles - for sale: 4,500£
Four and a half grand for a seven year old diesel automatic? It might be overpriced I suppose, but whenever I idly look at second hand cars, given we have a 15-year old, 100k mile Mazda that may need replacing at some point, they seem to be really pricey.
They last longer these days. A seven year old car when I was young would have been a rustbucket that ran badly unless it had been really pampered. These days it's a reliable car if it's been vaguely looked after.
There are always "bargains" of course, you could get a much more interesting car for that money or less.
I'm with you.. Been looking at a potential replacement car and can't believe the prices of 2nd hand cars at the moment.
I'll stick to bangernomics for the foreseeable.
100k Mazda ? That’s just run in, you won’t be replacing that for a while.
They last longer these days. A seven year old car when I was young would have been a rustbucket that ran badly unless it had been really pampered. These days it’s a reliable car if it’s been vaguely looked after.
Surely that should drive the value down; there is little drop in new cars being produced (I know there is a bit, but not massively). So existing supply lasts longer = fewer people need to buy a replacement for current car = drop in demand/prices for those that are for sale.
And I get that there are far more interesting cars than a diesel automatic Seat, but that's kinda the point, right? A massively dull thing like that, which I assume there can't be much demand for, can still command that kinda money?
100k Mazda ? That’s just run in, you won’t be replacing that for a while.
Oh aye, there's no sign of it dieing yet. There is also the 140k T5 however, so sod's law says that one of them will give up the ghost at some point.
The Mazda, by the way, cost £3k with 50k on the clock. Seven years ago, admittedly, but still.
Yeah, stuff's just more expensive now and older stuff that you could fix was chopped in for new shiny stuff you can't during the scrappage scheme a few years ago.
Stealth ad (a bad one):
2004 Civic CDTi
212k miles
20 days MOT
£350
A massively dull thing like that, which I assume there can’t be much demand for, can still command that kinda money?
Tool for a job, innit, and a lot of people just want a "white goods" car. Have a look at van prices, until they're properly shagged, they still have a value.
You aren't likely to get any hugely unpleasant surprises like you might with something more interesting.
when i was looking you are in that horrid no mans land between 40-80k where cars seem to be ludicrously priced.
EG.
I bought a 3 year old peugeot partner previous shape in the top(outdoor) spec with a few options and 5700(5.7k) miles on the clock for £8900 off a forecourt - List on this new was 18k + options.... ok no one pays that but thats a remarkable drop for 3 years.
I've been seeing 5 year old(which mines is now) peugeot partners of my shape in active spec(which is their lower spec) with 30-50k on the clock for between 5-6.8k - and they are moving - even if you knock 500 quid haggle off that your still looking at a pricy car- relitive to the new price of 13k on an active.
That just represents no value for me. so i tend to try and stay out of that "believed" value sweet spot of 40-80k where people think the intial teething issues have been ironed out but its not yet reached its mid-lifespan yet.
TBH locally time kills cars - 10 years seems to be the end of life due to rust. Hondas/Subarus/Mazda and suzuki seem to be the poorer performing of the vehicles in this respect - which probably drives the reasoning for most folk around here driving VAG/BMW due to them generally getting cosmetically rusty rather than terminally rusty.
I would put it to you that for the average driver, the above does not make more sense than an Ibiza. And nor do the 2 Cayenne Turbos for a touch less.
Edit - Baker's apostrophe's removed.
a lot of people just want a “white goods” car
That's exactly what I want (or would want). I'm just surprised that they are so expensive.
Yes, given what I paid for my 05 car two years and what it is worth now, I will be in profit
Anyone who considers cars expensive in the UK has not looked for one in Holland ( no leather ) €8500:
Back in March I paid 3000 for a 59 plate a3 with 140k on the clock. Could have had it for 2500 without timing chain and water pump service but thought what is the point for 500 quid.
But as above this car can definitely vouch for the longevity of modern cars.
Fewer people wanting to buy new innit. I thought it was just 2nd hand electric which have nearly doubled in price over 12-18 months since I started looking.
Thought the same when I looked a while back. I was expecting to be able to pick up something like a Focus in reasonable condition, not base spec and without stupid miles for £1500/2000. No chance, anything decent (10 years or newer, sub 100k, not crash damaged) seemed to start at £3500/4000 with anything interesting going north of £5000.
My mate who buys plenty of cheaper motors reckons it is because people have less cash so more people are looking to save money on their car. Lot's of people looking for the same thing pushes prices up....
My mate who buys plenty of cheaper motors reckons it is because people have less cash so more people are looking to save money on their car. Lot’s of people looking for the same thing pushes prices up….
this makes sense - but then it always seems like PCP and lease deals are getting ever more popular... so why isn't that influx of 3 year old cars pushing prices down?
Then again:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/07/consumers-apply-the-brakes-to-uk-new-car-sales
does this include lease deals etc? Maybe there really are fewer to go around. And after Brexit, I'd imagine it will get worse...
Cars are generally more expensive when new, thus depreciation as a percentage leaves a lot more on the ticket when used.
That’s Seat May well have been £18k new,
7 years later after having lost 75% it’s now £4.5k
Has the Seat sold yet? and how long has it been up for sale? Like most things, 2nd hand cars are only worth what people are prepared to pay. Not what some optimistic chancer thinks his pride & joy is worth.
They are not expensive if you come to sell a car that you bought brand new, in fact the prices seem rather low even 10 minutes after walking out of the showroom and getting into you now 10 minute old car.
That's a bad age/mileage/price to buy a car
Old enough to have problems that can be expensive (£1000s) that you'll still have to pay. Plus depreciation.
Better to spend more or less, but the £5-7k bracket (for a regular, non-speciality car) is bad news.
In 2012 I bought an SWB Transit, 7yrs old with 80k miles for £2,500
This year I bought an LWB Transit, 6yrs old with 79k miles for £4,500.
.
£2k for a bigger boot and one year younger? I know inflation but not that much in 7yrs!
They last longer these days. A seven year old car when I was young would have been a rustbucket that ran badly unless it had been really pampered. These days it’s a reliable car if it’s been vaguely looked after.
There is a lot of truth here. Though there was also a time in between when you could pick up something as robust as what you get now for a few hundred quid with 50k miles on the clock. It wasn't that long ago.
I think there a number of factors. eBay has pushed prices up for a lot of stuff. Gone are the days when you had to pay a tenner to get an ad in the auto-trader for a week. There are very few private sellers now. And the few genuinely good deals you do get are immediately picked up by sole traders, before being listed again within a couple of hours at twice the price - they're the car equivalent of ticket touts.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to buy within that price range. An old car is still an old car, and many modern cars are seriously neglected. You'll always have problems on an car almost 10 years old and it's a lottery whether they're big problems or little problems. Buy something older and you can have the same problems for half the price.
I bought a 3 year old peugeot partner previous shape in the top(outdoor) spec with a few options and 5700(5.7k) miles on the clock for £8900 off a forecourt – List on this new was 18k + options…. ok no one pays that but thats a remarkable drop for 3 years.
Almost an exact snap.
An interesting thread. I wonder if this is fall out from the lease car thing. Most 3 year old used cars are now sold by big businesses almost no private sales at this age these days. Plus people stung by lease final payments looking at used next time round
I did read some where that the whole lease thing had increased the price motoring across all consumers
You are assuming that the human race isn't also expanding at an exponential rate. If the volume of cars made 7 years ago fitted the population eligible to drive then, how much has the population eligible to drive grown by in that time? Over the last 7 years many second hand cars were scrapped on the scrappage scheme and We buy any car types have grown sweeping up some of the supply.
Cars cost more to buy and run than they used to so people's expectations on prices are higher too I think.
I probably should have sought a new car for longer and found a lower price, but I found one I really liked, decent seller with records of everything, responded well to questions. I figured after owning it and driving it am I going to care that I could have spent a few quid less on it? Maybe, maybe not!
You are assuming that the human race isn’t also expanding at an exponential rate.
It's definitely not in the UK...
Yeah I have been looking for a while but, as my car is now knocking on worthless (Mazda 3 2.0 Sport petrol with 60,000 on the clock, owned from new) - I'd be lucky to get more than £1,000 for it (we paid £15k for it new in 2007). Unless I go for something only a three or four years newer I need to be spending around £10k to get a vaguely similar significantly newer car (say a Focus Titanium spec around 3 years old).
I think I am going to keep it until it dies a spectacular death.
Baker’s apostrophe’s removed.
Gross
OP, it's mainly you. Try Canada - finding a car for under $10k that runs, is road-legal and not riddled with rust or faults is tough... I miss the days of being able to pick up a perfectly fine Fiat Punto for £1500.
That said, I guess the government's scrappage scheme in 2010 removed a lot of perfectly fine (but old) cars from the road, permanently shifting prices up somewhat.
I agree.
Our all but dead Touran (11yrs and 160k on iffy original clutch, needing new turbo and dpf and EGR going again, bits of rust) sold for £1800...!
Our all but dead Galaxy (12 years, 168k, with failed Central locking, exhaust blowing, emissions/EGR warning light, rusty boot and roof edge, holes in seats, a few electrical niggles, new brakes needed, new suspension and bushes needed) traded in at £1900....
We picked up a 13,500 mile, one year old Jazz for nearly £6000 off list.
That's some depreciation going on there.
There just aren't the mid life, privately owned bargains that there used to be.
People are keeping those cars for much longer than that used to, it would appear.
I'd echo that the UK is probably the cheapest in western Europe by some margin.
My dad lives in Spain and you would not believe what secondhand cars cost, possibly a combination of poor economy (lower new sales?) and that their number plates don't show age of car so people are less bothered about the new reg?
UK is cheap as it gets.
I was looking at last night:
- 2012 BMW 640d GT with 70k - £14K
- 2006 BMW M6 with 65k - £11.5K
And for the more sensible:
- 2014 Golf TDI with 73K - £6K
- 2014 Skoda Fabia TDI with 65K - £4K
I'm looking at the 640d GT - over £60k new, bargain!
We buy any car for com surely can't reduce the supply of used cars. Unless they hide them in mines after buying them
I can imagine cars bring written off by big bills could
People are keeping those cars for much longer than that used to, it would appear.
I wonder if this is tied into the lease thing? Previously people might have bought a car and paid it off over anywhere from 2 to 6 years with a loan, then kept it or sold it on and got a new one, meaning cars of a variety of ages coming onto the used market. Now the majority of new car 'buyers' get a 3 year lease/PCP deal and change at the end of it, or they buy a three year old car that was leased by somebody else. And they're likely to be the cash/loan buyers, rather than leasing a 3 year old car for another 3 years, so there's not the same 'prompt' to change cars after a set timescale.
I've seen more and more adverts for used PCP deals though, so maybe things will start to change there too.
I’ve had my Octavia for 13 years, it was four years old when I bought it for £5000 with 88k on the clock. It’s now got 149k on the clock, and is still going ok.
My next car is likely to cost me almost twice as much, for a car maybe three years old, but probably a third the mileage.
That Seat Leon is quite likely to have a diesel putting out 170bhp, with great handling and a DSG auto ‘box, and will be a great car for that sort of money.
Some good stats on car ages etc here:
The average age of licensed cars and LGVs at the end of 2018 was 8.2 years.
Petrol cars were generally older, with an average age of 9.1 years compared with 6.9 years for diesel cars. The average age of all cars and diesel cars increased compared to the
end of 2017, whereas petrol cars remained stable. The recent decline in new car registrations would have impacted on these figures.
The average age of licensed HGVs was 7.5 years, buses & coaches was 10.6 years, and motorcycles was 14.7 years.
That said, I guess the government’s scrappage scheme in 2010 removed a lot of perfectly fine (but old) cars from the road, permanently shifting prices up somewhat.
For which many people will fund through a finance/loan product, that charges interest... one of the better wizard wheezes from our government of austerity.
We’ve been done like a kipper!
That vanilla seat Leon Estate FR that I bought was half price from the auctions at 2 years old with 18k on the clock. BTW if its driven like I drive it, it will never be troubled by a blocked exhaust.
Again, UK cheap for second hand motors. Italy is crazy expensive.
Germany not like Italy (or Holland) but more expensive than the UK.
Interesting that diesels are on average not lasting a long as petrol. That'll be the exploding turbo or dual mass fly wheel bill. Some bias for petrol cars being bought for lower mileage applications of course.
We had an 05 diesel scenic. Did the turbo and EGR gave up when the clutch went 2 years ago
Same age but lower mileage Kia picanta. One track rod and a sensor moving near the fan belt and that's it other than consumables in 14 years
I think petrol and diesel cars last just as long - it's just that in the last 5 or so years lots of diesels (and fewer petrol) were sold, increasing the average fleet age of petrol on the road and decreasing the age of diesels. I bet if you looked at electric, the average age would be something like 2 years.
Cars are more expensive now. In 2005 I bought a 120k mondeo at 6 years old for a grand. In 2013 I bought a 7 year old signum (vectra) with 100k for £1500. I'd now be looking at 3k for similar. I think it's because :
2008-2012 hardly anyone bought new cars cos we were all broke, so fewer cars new
Same period, the scrappage scheme took out a lot of cars that'd now be providing choice (and lowering prices) at the bottom end of the market
The economy is generally doing pretty well, so folks have more money to spend on cars
Borrowing money has never been cheaper
Inflation. In 2008 (might be off by a year), run-out zafiras were 10k, so no-one would pay more than 6 for a 3 year old model. Now the equivalent new car is 25k, pulling up everything below. Same goes for civic type r (2003 was 16k, now 32), mondeos, you name it
RE average diesel being younger than average petrol vehicles. These stats include LGVs and vans just don't seem to last as long, they'll do 200k in five years and then be scrapped, whereas a 'normal' car would do 50k on that time and still be fine. Generalising obviously, but vans tend to have short, hard lives and these are probably accounting for a lot of the difference
Turbos and injection systems are far, far less reliable than they used to be.
My old diesel Omega died at 280,000, still on the originals.
Original clutch too.
Brother in law only got rid of his Citroen C15 because there was nothing to weld a new floor to. The engine was fine at well over 200k.
The pollution from both probably killed more people than Union Carbide, but things were simpler then.
I'm not sure many modern diesels will last that long without new injectors, turbo, dpf etc.
As someone who buys a car and keeps it till it dies, then resurrects it and drives it again, things are not looking particularly hoopy.
Which is why I've just spent a third of the price of my first house on the one year old Jazz. Petrol, no turbo, Japanese.
I had high hopes for the previous Doblo, but maintaining an Italian designed car built in Turkey turned into a complete ****er's outing.
Our all but dead Touran (11yrs and 160k on iffy original clutch, needing new turbo and dpf and EGR going again, bits of rust) sold for £1800…!
Does anyone want to buy a slightly not quite fully dead touran?
£2100
I think some dealers are becoming too greedy. We were looking at trading in my wifes Suzuki. Forecourt prices for her car at main dealers were £4000/£4500 and we were offered £2000 in part ex for it. When i asked about the big mark up i was told the car would go to auction. Why when you've got the same vehicles on your forecourt ? The salesman said people can't be bothered selling privately and making an extra grand or so.
I regularly cycle near to Bruntingthorpe and you see truck load after truck load of 1-3 year old white SUV clones arriving for auction.
This was also reflected when car hunting for both myself and the outlaws, with the current sweet point seeming to be 1-3 year old SUVs, all from the multitude of car supermarkets. In fact the outlaws saved over 10k on list, for a fully loaded Korean SUV at 9 months old.
Great for the outlaws, but needing a small - medium sized petrol second car and a seven seater, again in petrol both used was near impossible to find.
Do wonder what will happen as these SUVs filter down the chain.
Do wonder what will happen as these SUVs filter down the chain.
given they're generally considered more desirable than traditional cars, they will retain a price premium and people who like them will be happy. This will continue until bangers are SUVs, at which point the 'premium' nature of them will drop, and premium new cars will be some other style (if ownership is still a prospect by then). This happened with MPVs, which were a bit of a status symbol in the 90s..
I think some dealers are becoming too greedy. We were looking at trading in my wifes Suzuki. Forecourt prices for her car at main dealers were £4000/£4500 and we were offered £2000 in part ex for it. When i asked about the big mark up i was told the car would go to auction. Why when you’ve got the same vehicles on your forecourt ? The salesman said people can’t be bothered selling privately and making an extra grand or so.
Very much this. The PX prices offered these days take the pee. I remember (2012?) being offered between £8.5 to £9k PX for a car I could sell privately for 10k which they would then put on the forecourt for £11.5k.
These days the PX would be around £6/7k from experience. I had a main dealer quote WBAC as a marker FFS. They are relying on people being lazy.
I think you now need to spend 8-12K on a newer low mileage car. I handed back my emissions screwed 64 plate Yeti that had 42k on it after 3.5 years and bought a 2.5 year old 2015 Seat Leon ST FR 184 with 17K on the clock still in warranty for £11k. The balloon payment to buy the Yeti was 11k. A newer non affected diesel with 25k less mileage and warranty. It was a no brainer.
My theory is that there are way fewer private sellers and the traders and dealers mark vehicles up in anticipation of people buying on finance and only caring about the size of monthly payments.
Even worse for vans.
Try an older Mercedes!
They go on for ever and if you get the right one it will go up in value not down...
Mine has cost me 10k over the last 28 months - purchase, repair and running costs (excluding fuel) and she's still fabulous at just over thirty years old...
I spent £900 on a SAAB estate a couple of months back. It's comfortable, gets me from A to B when I need it to, quickly too (250hp) and I can put all the things or people I want in it.
Not really sure what spending £5000 more would have got me?
Not really sure what spending £5000 more would have got me?
A considerably less horrid interior and some good handling I'd expect.
Not a lot!
My theory is that there are way fewer private sellers and the traders and dealers mark vehicles up in anticipation of people buying on finance and only caring about the size of monthly payments.
I think this is mostly it. You go to a car dealer now and the actual price on the windscreen is second to the monthly cost on a 24-36 month deal. People don't care what the car costs overall, just what the monthly payments are.