[Closed] Sealing up a stopcock - permanently

water regs require a stop valve to be located either inside the building or immediately outside the building. The stop valve at the boundary doesnt suffice.

Could you remove it and fit a bit of plain pipe?

You can get these if in a difficult to reach place: http://www.screwfix.com/p/surestop-remote-stop-cock-push-fit-15mm/48604?kpid=48604&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&cm_mmc=Google-_-Shopping%20-%20Plumbing-_-Shopping%20-%20Plumbing&gclid=Cj0KEQiA_fy0BRCwiLaQ5-iFgpwBEiQA884sOR40peThEO9dG8LF6OnDp_MPjLUidZkkXIEUKp8EmO4aAgHl8P8HAQ

yes seal it with some water proof in the event of a water leak there or in your house you will be glad you did this 😯

FWIW you can easily relocate the tap point by simply using pipe from it to a suitable and convenient location- i assume something other than just the handle is poking out

If not you need to dig it out as there is a reason we have internal stop cocks for our water supply.
ITs copper not brass FWIW

Junkyard, there is nothing between the external mains stopcock and the internal one, so using the external one would make no difference to the outcome.

Yes the whole unit is sticking out with the the entire cast iron pipe below, and the copper (sorry) pipe having about 1" exposed before it goes under the plaster. We'd have to dig out about 3 ft (upward toward the ceiling following the pipe) of plaster wall to dig it out. But maybe it's a job worth doing?

there is nothing between the external mains stopcock and the internal one, so using the external one would make no difference to the outcome.

You ask for advice you get it then you a disagree with it

In that case spray it with expanding foam and everything will be fine,
as neither sense nor building regs make any difference.

HTH.

so using the external one would make no difference to the outcome.

except it's a long way away when you are in a panic and a pipe is pissing water everywhere, not to mention, do you need a special tool to open the valve box, is it accessible by hand and if so is it able to be isolated by hand or is a valve key needed?

The stop cock in the house (or right outside the house, easily accessible, hand-operated) is there for the householder. The one at the boundary is more likely to be used by the water undertaker or contractor.

I think you've missed the point, no need to get upset JY.

When installed, the stopcock will be behind a cupboard, and behind a cooker - accessible for me to turn it by hand. My issue is if it leaks - in which case I'd need to turn it off outside anyway (which is accessible by hand and is now a modern plastic quarter turn-by-hand handle btw).

So, seeing as I can turn of the mains outside in about 20 second assuming the front door isn't locked, it wouldn't matter if I stopped it pissing water over the back of our new oven / kitchen units would it?

We'd have to dig out about 3 ft (upward toward the ceiling following the pipe) of plaster wall to dig it out. But maybe it's a job worth doing?

while you have the perfect chance to fix something properly why bodge it again and live worrying it may fail?

Hmmm so you wont move it - you want to stick it behind immovable things and you want to smother it in waterproof shit so by the time you know of a leak its too late ?

All fair points - if the best advice is to dig the pipe out of the plaster while the Kitchen is back to bare walls (it's being redecoraerated and skimmed anyway), that's what I'll do.

It'll be about 8ft up above a cupboard though.

When installed, the stopcock will be behind a cupboard, and behind a cooker - accessible for me to turn it by hand. My issue is if it leaks - in which case I'd need to turn it off outside anyway (which is accessible by hand and is now a modern plastic quarter turn-by-hand handle btw).

So, seeing as I can turn of the mains outside in about 20 second assuming the front door isn't locked, it wouldn't matter if I stopped it pissing water over the back of our new oven / kitchen units would it?

Id suggest a stopcock leaking is a very rare occurence, so id still want one in my house under my control.

I assume the outside one is under a cover in the street as per most houses? [This was the case for my parents and when we needed to turn the water off in the street to move the stopcock we found it wasnt actually there, the council had re-laid the path and not aligned the cover with the pipe down to the valve, so we had to pull up slabs to find it and dig the sand out to access].

It'll be [s]about 8ft up above a cupboard though[/s]wherever i choose to fit it.

FTFY

As above. Relocate it and put it somewhere sensible and accessible. It'll save pain in the long run.

Stato yes, it's just been renewed as I discover that I couldn't turn off the water when the stopcock leaked a month or so ago.

JU, it can't go down at the pipe into the house to about waist height is cast iron. It can only go up above the cooker, or on the next floor in my daughters room, where there is already another stopcock.

The idea is to prevent it ruining the cooker if it leaks, which it would do anyway if it was above it, but at least above it it's accessible with a spanner, whereby it won't be without removing the cooker.

It'll be about 8ft up above a cupboard though

... or get it done properly, and relocate it somewhere sensible, like the cupboard under the sink.

I could understand you not wanting to do this if the kitchen was newly installed, but see no reason whatsoever not to do the job properly if the kitchen is being totally gutted anyway.

JU, it can't go down at the pipe into the house to about waist height is cast iron. It can only go up above the cooker,

It may be easy or it may be hard but it really can go wherever you want to put it.I would go with the other sensible locations rather than the ones you seem determined to implement

How can I put this? The Mains - cast iron - pipe comes from the front of the house, under the hall/stairs under a nice floor whihc DD installed, I under the kitchen floor then up, out at the back of the kitchen, up through an upstairs bedroom into the loft, across the loft, back down by the boiler (located upstairs in a cupboard and then from there it Spurs across to the bathroom, down stairs to the sink/ washing machine point.

So where it is is BEFORE everything other than the hallway. To relocate it would be after something. And as I mentioned there is another stopcock about 10 ft away vertically in the upstairs bedroom, and yet another in the loft before it enter the boiler cupboard. So there's nowhere for it to go of any benefit, apart from up higher slightly to get away from behind the cooker.

Where does the cast pipe stop and the copper start ?

Wherever that is, that's where you work from.

Install a copper pipe from that point, to wherever you want the stopcock. Then reinstate the feed from the stopcock to the rest of the house.

About waist height up the kitchen wall in the corner - the stopcock is immediately after it. The original plan was to lower it to floor level - becuase then it would be behind a removable pan drawer giving good spanner access - but 4 of 4 builders won't cut the cast iron pipe.

Ps. Don't trust builders with plumbing.

Get a plumber 😉

Can you not remove stopcock. From there pipe to where ever you want the stopcock and then re-pipe back to where the stopcock was?

Russ, I think that what I said above 😉

I was just repeating your good advice!

and he was repeating mine - with added ladybird description.

So - you have in internal stopcock immediately above the kitchen? Why not just remove the one in the kitchen and replace it with pipe?

Presumably a threaded male iron thread into a brass stopcock, then compression to copper?
In which case I'd be inclined to leave it as its no more or less likely to play up than any other copper to iron fitting you replace it with. Maybe re-do the packing gland around the spindle?

and he was repeating mine - with added ladybird description.

I have a feeling it might need pictures too 🙂

Presumably a threaded male iron thread into a brass stopcock, then compression to copper?
In which case I'd be inclined to leave it as its no more or less likely to play up than any other copper to iron fitting you replace it with. Maybe re-do the packing gland around the spindl

I'm not sure what you mean by compression but yes one end is on the cast iron the other is the copper pipe - immediately on he join here is where is starts to be plastered over. . By gland and spindle I'm guessing to mean the tap bit that I would turn - this was replaced by the plumber when he came as it was this that was leaking. I can see it has that white thin plumbers tape wrapped around it.

I guess I'll leave it, hope for the best and if it all goes pear shaped and water pisses all over the back of the cooker then that's what house insurance is for.

contact your water supplier and see how much it is to have your supply pipe changed to a nice blue one - should be subsidised you may be surprised at the cost.

Whilst you're building etc get the pipe changed you wouldn't want that cast iron pipe to crack and leak ! Its probably as old as the house.

This will solve the issue

In for a penny out for a pound !

You do realise that if your incoming main is in cast iron that this is more likely to fracture than your stopcock fail again?

Are you sure it's CI? It'd be unusual (well up here it would!), more likely to be lead...

I'd be tempted to get it done properly (and not on plastic push fit neither, they can pop olives and be a complete disaster). Copper with potable capillary fittings (yeah, by a plumber).

Photos might help.

I guess I'll leave it, hope for the best and if it all goes pear shaped and water pisses all over the back of the cooker then that's what house insurance is for.

What's the point of asking for advice, getting it, then ignoring it all ?

Seems an odd way to go about solving a problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by compression

Sigh.

Pic here, sorry low light:

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Cracked cast iron piping eh, maybe I should move house before its too late.

I'd get that checked out, it's a bad photo but it looks like it might be lead (bottom section) to me.

Its a victorian property built in 1906, so it probably is.

I'm guessing thats bad then.

id be on the phone to the water board to check out your pipes ! nice blue one fitted free of charge ! but tbh I doubt you have lead pipes running into your house it should have been changed at some point ...good luck fella

https://www.unitedutilities.com/lead-pipe-replacement-scheme-form.aspx

That looks very much like a lead-loc fitting in the picture.

Could do with a better picture though.

If you scrape the pipe with a sharp penknife blade does it make a mark (lead) or not (iron)

Unfitgeezer I doubt they'd pay for the removal and reinstatement of my floor, stairs, kitchen floor and units.

Reading the safety advise, it's lucky the water based first activity is a shower in the morning then to remove the water sat in the pipe overnight.

I'll try to get a better picture tomorrow without using an iPad.

It was standard practice to use lead as it was malleable and not prone to fracturing (remember this was pre central heating so pipe liable to freeze. CI would fracture/shatter if water froze internally).

Lead really not great for health. Councils used to give you replacement grants, doubt they do now though.

I'd be looking to get a new incoming supply - speak to you water company, ask for quote. They might have a scheme. Not sure how things work in England I'm afraid.

Unfitgeezer I doubt they'd pay for the removal and reinstatement of my floor, stairs, kitchen floor and units.

I know that, I meant having your original pipes changed to a plastic one and getting rid of all your old and possibly lead pipes maybe the cheaper option in the long run.

They run the hose under the floor which is usually fairly straight forward (not in all cases)

If you're not going to shift it, then fit a sure stop with a remote control

Unfitgeezer I doubt they'd pay for the removal and reinstatement of my floor, stairs, kitchen floor and units.

They wouldn't need to. The new pipe wouldn't need to follow the same route as the old one.

It just needs to start in the same place and finish somewhere in your kitchen. Preferably somewhere more sensible than it does now.

nealglover - Member

Unfitgeezer I doubt they'd pay for the removal and reinstatement of my floor, stairs, kitchen floor and units.

They wouldn't need to. The new pipe wouldn't need to follow the same route as the old one.
[b]
It just needs to start in the same place and finish somewhere in your kitchen. Preferably somewhere more sensible than it does now.[/b]

This is what I meant well said that man !

Why does it have to finish in the kitchen if there's already an internal stopcock upstairs? Couldn't a new feed pipe be routed directly to there (if it was easier/less disruption)?

Here's a better pic of said join. Re the above, I've no idea how they'd route a pipe 20m from one end of the house to the other without obstruction or removing some floor, but I guess thats why I'm not in the trade.

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Btw, I can't reach nor have an implement long enough to scratch the pipe before the cupboard is removed, but I'm guessing as its survived 110 years of british winters its lead. Advice all over t'internet is - run a sinkful of water before consumption first thing in the morning - we have showers before breakfast anyway - and that if we are in a hard water area, which we are then we may be better protected by limescale deposits.

However, there's 50% our London Borough with Victorian builds, the others approx 1930's or 1970's builds, so we won't be the only one's affected.

Re the upstairs stopcock - its also similarly sunk into the wall inside some boxing in, with a hatch to access by hand.

Our property's were one up/one down flats in the 70's so I guess whomever converted ours back to a house didn't think about leaking stopcock glans.

Why does it have to finish in the kitchen

It doesn't, but that's where the copper starts so it makes sense.
And it's also a pretty sensible place to have a stopcock too, under the kitchen sink is a fairly standard place to start, for anyone that doesn't know for sure where it is.

Hmmm. This image would have me believe is iron:

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Guess I'll find out in March when I have a scratch. Certainly the builders thought it was Iron.

What is the floor construction?
As you're have a new kitchen, whilst the rooms empty, and if a new plastic pipe can't happen. Get a plumber to lift the floor boards, cut the lead/iron/platinum pipe below the floor, joint it to new pipe work there and then bring up under the new sink to a new stopcock. From there it can be run behind the new cabinets etc to wherever it needs to go to joint the pipe work going to th attic.
As above, you know that the stopcock is in a bedroom behind a hatch in an emergency, but everyone else would look under a sink?

You can also use an insuduct to bring a new blue pipe into the house at a sensible location without having to breach the foundation/floor.

http://groundbreaker.co.uk/products/insuduct/

Hi Kryton, defiantly iron, you don't have a thread on lead. l misunderstood your original description , thought the iron was straight into the stopcock.
The setup you have is easy to modify, just undo the top compression nut where the copper starts and start again with new 15 mm copper or plastic pipe( John guest/hep2o) leaving the stopcock out.
Don't undo the whole brass fitting, just the top nut which you can reuse with a new olive.
Hope this helps, Paul.

singlesman thats great, thanks.

So, in order to explore any potential element of doom, it was turning the stop cock that cause it to leak.

So lets assume I remove this one and replace with pipe therefore saving the oven/units from a potential soaking, should the one on the floor above need turning off and it leaks, that'd also be a problem as a part of the wall would need tearing away for spanner access.

So for my sanity, how quickly do stop cock glans wear out?

Just as an aside there's a third stopcock in the pipe as it traverse across the loft to the boiler location, I tried turning that once but it wouldnt budge despite no signs of corrosion so I didn't force it. But why 3 stopcocks each about 3-4m apart?

Depends on what they are isolating. There may be a rising main to the bathroom coming off between the two valves.

Don't think you can second guess how long the packing around the spindle will last, 1 year /50 years, no one can tell.
They are really easy to re- pack though, as long as you have access you don't even need the water turned off. When your new oven unit goes in won't there be a storage cupboard above the oven housing? If so couldn't you relocate the stopcock higher up and have a access panel there?

We could. There's also a 2ft gap between the top of the unit and the ceiling, so it could be located there removing the issue of not have working space from within the cupboard unit.

Stoner may be right - between this and the stopcock in the above floor could be pipes to the bathroom, so I think I should not remove it.

gland is easy to repack. Wind in the stop cock, remove the handle and undo the gland to repack it. Once repacked and left untouched it should last years and probably less risk than disturbing all the compression joints to remove the stopcock which could end up leaking.

That above, my stopcock is some ancient thing that came from the 1960s local authority store containing everything you could imagine that doesn't align with any modern standard. With that in mind, it doesn't move though I would like to turn it 90 degrees axially, the last time it was fiddled with it leaked for a while so I'm rather reluctant.