[Closed] Scum Villages

what do we think are the root causes of anti-social behaviour and benefit dependency?

I see a certain merit in socially penalising people for unacceptable behaviour but I'm not sure that a portakabin, heavy police presence and a bunch of social workers are really going to address the underlying issues.

I like how the hoody appears to be fiddling with his wanger whilst doing the gun thing at David

Maybe he's just repressed about something

Yes I do. Problem is that the law wasn't enforced by the Police.

Well that's actually a different problem, and not one that wasting money on "scum villages" is going to resolve.

The Dutch Parool newspaper observed that the policy was not a new one. In the 19th century, troublemakers were moved to special villages in Drenthe and Overijssel outside Amsterdam. The villages were rarely successful, becoming sink estates for the lawless.

So, it failed before and they want to try it again.....

Didn't say it would MSP. But clearly some people do (Dutch geezer for instance)

But it is part of the issue, if people want rid of a group of people it's important to understand why is it not?

what do we think are the root causes of anti-social behaviour and benefit dependency?

Well part of the problem is associating anti-social behaviour with being on benefits. Although its harder for a family dependant on benefits to buy their way out of responsibility the way that a bullingdon club member can.

Didn't say it would MSP. But clearly some people do (Dutch geezer for instance)

Again the proposal isn't for crime, its for anti-social behaviour.

In a nearby village is a small council estate,with flats,where people and families from further afield are housed due to them causing problems in their original area.They continue to cause problems and are eventually moved on again.
For the long term residents of the estate this has caused a deterioration of the area,leaving some houses virtually worthless.
The benefit for the police and authorities is that they know exactly where to go when a crime takes place in the area.
People emphasise education.The children from these families go to exactly the same school as other children in the area so opportunities are the same.The difference is that the parents don't care.
Separating children from "bad parents" may be more suitable than shipping off whole families.

D'you reckon that having such a bunch of toffee nosed pillocks in charge is part of the problem then..?
Would our youth have such a problem with authority if the authority figures at the highest level were a bit more representative of the general populace..?

yunki - The thing is, its not just the so called 'underclass' though is it? Dave and his chinless chums just aren't representative of anyone who doesn't own at least three houses and a bank account with an awful lot of naughts at the end of it.

Compared to their vast inherited wealth, being on benefits, or earning £150,000 a year, we're all still just peasants to them!

So... effectively we could all employ that strategy to justify our actions.

Would our youth have such a problem with authority if the authority figures at the highest level were a bit more representative of the general populace

By 'representative', do you mean more politicians should be wandering about with their hands down their crotch making gun gestures at authority figures? 😀

As for the exaple of 'youth' in the above-posted picture, I don't think they've a problem with "posh" authority, just a problem with authority in general.

So... effectively we could all employ that strategy to justify our actions.

perhaps the underclass are just a bit too proud to bend over and take it though..?

jaov8x - I dunno mate, I was thinking a bit more of the psychology behind it.. I was one of them youfs once..
I don't have the answers, I just hated everyone who wasn't 'one of us'

Again the proposal isn't for crime, its for anti-social behaviour

There's a line between these that I find quite blurred.

It'd be interesting to see how much of Anti Social behaviour could actually be treated as crime.

A lazy google leading to wiki has the Police classifying things ranging from definitely not criminal such as begging and alarms going off. (I wouldn't even classify these as anti social let alone criminal. And it's a damn worry that they have been)

Right up to actual nasty stuff such as;

Hate incidents where abuse involves race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, age or disability

Are you seriously suggesting that there's some kind of revolutionary fervour to their actions? As opposed to taking stuff that they haven't paid for, while generally acting like a complete ****!! While making feeble excuses about social inequality, to assert my 'rights' while refusing to accept any responsibility for anything?

again binners, just thinking of the psychology behind it, what leads kids to hate society

I was certainly peeved as a youth that I couldn't have 'stuff' while others seemed to be dripping in it..

It sounded like you were trying to provide an excuse. I'm glad you weren't though.

I know what you're saying. Look at the riots. It would actually have been quite refreshing to see 'the yoot' rising up against police brutality, social injustice and inequality, youth unemployment etc, as that would have been understandable

As it turned out it was just an excuse to go and rob Foot Locker, while throwing bricks at the police. Which, given the unbelievablt divided society we're living in, and the regime in charge, was just about the most depressing thing ever....

Glupton, no. Really not. Just trying to understand a little more.

Nothing sorts the problem out quicker than community spirit

Rubbish. When violent drug dealers moved in next door to us in Burnley they intimidated the neighbourhood so effectively that no neighbour dared to do anything. For our part, we didn't want to have a dispute with them because within 24 hours of them moving in we'd seen enough and decided to get the hell out and we didn't want to have to declare a neighbour dispute. It took us six months to tidy up the house and sell it for much less than it was worth, during that time we were both at our wits' end and taking beta-blockers. We were supposed to move out on a Friday but the move got delayed until the following Monday but on that Friday night The Scum threw a welcoming party designed to intimidate the new owners who they thought were moving in. The house was re-sold three times in the ensuing four years.

globalti

- my post was a bit tongue in cheek.. and I made references to community lynch mobs in the same breath as community spirit..

As neighbours, no, you alone didn't stand a chance.. but if the entire street had taken up pickaxe handles and popped round one evening for a chat about acceptable behaviour things might have been different..

that was my point, not very well made though perhaps, and maybe not very realistic either..
hence also the photo of a 'Simpsons' lynch mob

As it turned out it was just an excuse to go and rob Foot Locker, while throwing bricks at the police. Which, given the unbelievablt divided society we're living in, and the regime in charge, was just about the most depressing thing ever....

I think there was more to it than that to be honest. This was years of underinvestment in communities, failed social interventions and worst of all a complete failure to address the needs of those at the bottom of society. It translated as ignorant lawlessness but if you peel even a single layer of that back there is and was far more to it.

yossarian is absolutely spot on

See, that's interesting and different to my experiences Edinburgh and Glasgow, where the local dealers have ensured that there is virtually no crime in their patch. No scrapping on your own door step seems to be the law of the jungle up here.

organised violence deffo seems to be the way forward in controlling antisocial behaviour then..

Yunki....people are scared to do that kind of thing because they know the police will arrest THEM for turning up on somebody's doorstep armed and looking for confrontation....even if the scum (drug dealers in the example) deserve it.

I'm a fierce defender of the police but the one thing they (and the CPS) hate is vigilantism....it takes power away from those who legally wield it and they will come down hard on those who take matters into their own hands.....for reasons of order and control they will not let this happen because the first time they let it slide it gives a green light to mob rule....or thats the fear anyway.

Recent case in point was the bloke who found out one of his employees was stealing from him, he frog marched the thief to the cop shop with a sign around his neck highlighting the crime, upon arriving at the police station he found himself arrested and is now facing bankruptcy from fighting the case and the thief has also started proceedings due to his 'kidnapping' etc etc.....is it any wonder society turns a blind eye?

(Far more effective to just burn the house down re. the drug dealers)

I guess you have to be careful down that path, for fear of sparking all out community war..

maybe it's best handing over some control to the dealers as in Glupton's experience.. legalise the drugs, franchise the retail of them and let the tough guys crack a few skulls on the side

I think there was more to it than that to be honest. This was years of underinvestment in communities, failed social interventions and worst of all a complete failure to address the needs of those at the bottom of society. It translated as ignorant lawlessness but if you peel even a single layer of that back there is and was far more to it.

I agree with you. The issue here isn't just poverty, its poverty of ambition, more than anything. What does it say about our society where large groups of (totally unrepresented and demonised) people see it as worth risking a serious prison sentence to go and nick a pair of trainers, and set fire to stuff. That's surely the very definition of hopelessness

And we're discussing this on the same day as George readies himself to announce the next swingeing and brutal cuts to the public services needed to try and remedy some of this

Utterly depressing

piemonster - Member

Anyone been to Rhyl lately?

Sheepsteeth's mum lives there!

Oh wait, wrong forum.

Legalising drugs would help massively...with all sorts of crimes.

Take the drug away from the dealers, purify it, legalise it and sell it through licensed premises....who'd want to use a street dealer then?....the government would also collect a fair chunk of tax too i'd wager....it would need to come with the caveat that drug driving would be treated the same as drink driving and all police officers would need to be trained to carry out roadside impairment tests but i reckon its doable and would solve more problems than it would create.

It'll never happen all the time we have an ageing population who have the vote and have never touched drugs, the MPs need their vote and a proposal to legalise drugs is at the moment a vote lower i'm sure.

As it turned out it was just an excuse to go and rob Foot Locker, while throwing bricks at the police. Which, given the unbelievablt divided society we're living in, and the regime in charge, was just about the most depressing thing ever....

and then stay at home when it rained. lightweights..

glitch

What Deviant says

Legalising drugs would only work if they make them free. Whether it's the government charging or a dealer charging, junkies still need to steal/sell shit/etc if not working to fund it.

The only difference with legalising drugs would be that prices would go UP and availability go down. Same as everything else the government do.

yunki - Member
Would our youth have such a problem with authority if the authority figures at the highest level were a bit more representative of the general populace..?

Extremely unlikely - but who are these mystical representatives? What is the "general populace"? One look at any thread on here tells us that no such person exists, surely? But last time I checked the vast majority of "our youth" were perfectly capable of respecting authority and behaving acceptably. A little insulting to suggest otherwise IMO.

Instead of being bred on milk and honey and wearing suits, and never having to fight for anything in their entire lives, sitting around at dinner parties and braying heartily

Of course, if such false stereotyping was turned on its head....? Ok, so everyone exaggerates for effect but I wonder if you really believe that?

.. what if our 'leaders' wore jeans, had weatherbeaten faces and a few worry lines and smoked fags and that..?

They would be ignored domestically and abroad. Why was Prescott kept under wraps/at home mainly for all those years? I am all for better representation within broader government, but when it comes to those capable of leading the country, that is a job that requires skills/gravitas etc that is not available to us all. Not everyone can be a headmaster, a CEO, a Prime Minister, a President etc. So take Jo Average and place him/her in complex international negotiations, require him/her to carry masses of facts in their head and never to make a mistake in the face of 24 hour news coverage and analysis etc. Nice idea, but doesn't happen.

MSP - Member
Well part of the problem is associating anti-social behaviour with being on benefits.

Very true.

Although its harder for a family dependant on benefits to buy their way out of responsibility the way that a bullingdon club member can.

How does anyone "buy" responsibility? Isn't it something [i]we take[/i]? People from all walks of life, backgrounds, etc are perfectly capable of taking responsibility for their actions. Equally there are people from all walks of life who behave in an anti-social manner.

ah well.. in that case I shall continue to cheerfully eat shit while gratefully deferring to my 'superiors' greater intellect.. 😆

what if our 'leaders' wore jeans, had weatherbeaten faces and a few worry lines and smoked fags and that..?

http://undergroundmgzn.com/2012/03/20/everyone-quits-smoking-after-ed-miliband-starts/

Yunki - I hope that we are both making valid points. What are the attributes that we want to see in MPs? Are they the same as those we want in our leaders? Is there a difference at all? No one has to eat ****, but equally how may of us could genuinely cope with being a PM/CEO - extremely lonely, stressful roles that few people are able to fulfill effectively IMO.

I have no desire to have both front benches populated by people who have all (largely) had the same education (subject and Uni). Perhaps that's why none of them can supply the answers right now?

no no.. you're probably right..

I have anti capitalist leanings so I'll always find it hard to sympathise with your CEOs and career politicos, but I do understand the need for good tailoring in the present system..

In defence of that policy, it worked out rather well didn't it? Oz is no longer a sink estate and people want to move there.

All that shows is how crap the rest of the world has become.

I think the 'Scum Villages' is a great idea. The P.C do-gooders who say "what about the kids" etc don't seem to care so much when the local inbred little shits are keying their cars at 13.

How does anyone "buy" responsibility?

buy their way out of responsibility

Different things.

Sorry MSP, can you explain how you buy your way "out of responsibility"? I assume you are not talking about slipping a copper a few quid!

I am talking about having the financial clout to use/abuse the system when you misbehave. eg The lawyer who made a name for himself a few years back getting the rich and the famous out of their traffic offences.

Hmmm after reading this thread perhaps I should leave the Island........... and then nuke it 😈