[Closed] Scum Villages

It's sad that you seem to percieve this as a good thing, instead of trying to integrate the less fortunate into society a little more.

Where do you draw the line ? Essex chavs playing loud music but coming from affluent families ? How about people brought up on a council estate? irrelevent of their education/abilities ?

They've already done it. Its called Nottingham

years ago they used to send 'undesirables'to other parts of the world, Australia took very many i believe

Create social problems, then blame the poor for them, nice......

The Reich lives one.

Deary me.

We sought of do this already.

Councils evict problem families from their homes and they move into grotty b&b's in nasty neighbourhoods and stay there until they're rehoused.

That ultra right wing neo Nazi dutch fella's idea is a little naive. All he's doing if such an idea would be successful is social cleansing. But by doing this you're mearly relocating the problem to fester and grow into an even bigger problem that would spread like a social cancer.

Seems like a great idea.
I've seen many a decent law abiding victim move from their house to escape these types of people.
Why not move the problem away not the victim

So you don't see the difference between poor/disadvantaged families and anti social behaviour?

So you get put in a scum village, how, if you change are you supposed to better yourself and get out? no ones going to employ you so crime is the only way for you to survive

Might as well just kill em all really

Send council junkies to dedicated islands. Stornaway is big enough to fill them up. +Scottish laws free to roam will make them fit exploring and enjoying nature, and they can't nick anything from good folk being separated from mainland, result. Win Win.

slowmart - Member
So you don't see the difference between poor/disadvantaged families and anti social behaviour?

I do... Yep....

However, i worry, some people like yourself don't.

What about coming home in an evening pissed and singing at the top of your voice ? That's anti-social, however i bet most of us did it when younger and drunk...

Didnt they do this in Scotland a while back. Moved scum neighbors into a block of flats to annoy each other and give everyone else a break. Also the police knew where to go straight away when any crap happened.

Do people actually read links before commenting?

Weeksy. Don't worry I do.

So how do you protect decent people from anti social behaviour.

years ago they used to send 'undesirables'to other parts of the world, Australia took very many i believe

I never understood that, y'know. We've got a large, sunny island over there and a small, damp one over here. We want rid of our undesireables, so we [i]stay here and ship them off.[/i] *facepalm*

slowmart - Member

Weeksy. Don't worry I do.

So how do you protect decent people from anti social behaviour.

Give everyone the same upbringing and chances in life?....

So how do you protect decent people from anti social behaviour.

democratically..?

[img] [/img]

Whats that chunky? two parents who lovingly dote on their children. Who all experience good health and live happily ever after?

We all have choices and know right from wrong.

Give everyone the same upbringing and chances in life?....

How do you give everyone the same upbringing?

oh dear

slowmart - Member
Weeksy. Don't worry I do.

So how do you protect decent people from anti social behaviour.

It's called a Police force and a law system that enforces it. Sadly the UK's doesn't work very well at times i admit, however the law and society in general is in place to ensure this sort of thing shouldn't and doesn't happen....

I am pretty convicned it happens a LOT less now than it would when one section of society has no jobs, money, food etc... and just go to the rich areas to steal stuff 🙂

The only realistic 2 ways to improve the situation are.
1. Improve Policing, this would require more officers and great budget, so is unlikley.
2. Improve education, this would require better schools and vast budgets, so is unlikely...

We as a society are to blame for our apathy and acceptance of behaviour by 'nannying' our young for several generations now.

These 'scum' villages will have a constant presence of social workers (and police). Might this be a way of breaking the cycle of poor parenting and crime that some (very very few) families are caught in? It didn't read to me like he are being sent there to rot, rather to stop the causing trouble for others and to receive the dedicated help they need...

We all have choices and know right from wrong.

What about riding bikes on footpaths, landowners would deem that anti-social, if a neighbour planted a leylandii hedge I would classify that as anti-social, cat ownership is anti-social. Where do all these things fit into your perfect black and white world of right and wrong?

Blackpool and most seaside resorts are already scum towns full of DSS and old folk. Just go to Blackpool and go one street back from the EU funded sea front and you'll see what I mean.

oh dear

oh dear what?

How do you give everyone the same upbringing?

I'm pretty certain that most people don't have the same upbringing, siblings probably but most people, no

Any dangers of reading the article?

It's aimed at repeat offenders who fall short of criminality.

given the chips on shoulders of several posters it's the schools in the socially deprived areas where funding is rightly focused. That alone is not a solution but it does help. Try being a teacher and the feedback is that the parents are the problem.Not the children.

I'd always assumed Ordsall was the result of this policy being implemented a few decades ago.

Might as well just kill em all really

xcgb - If you actually stand for election on that ticket, you'll have you're snout in the Westminster trough in a heartbeat. 😆

ChunkyMTB - Member
oh dear

I can't believe the Dutch would do that without some method behind it, smacks of tabloid journalism un researched to me..

While the article has been written in a rather emotional tone, there is a certain merit to it.

There's a definite social wrong when "trouble" families refuse to get work, cause trouble in their area and impact on the quality of life of those around them, particularly if they are in social housing and so funded by the contributions of those around them. It's definitely not right that they should be subsidised when by the very fact of their misbehaviour, they are fit & able to work.

The "camps" system is probably (and I say probably) a step too quick in the process - there should probably be a primary step of benefits being stopped first, and then if the perpetrators do not improve and occupy themselves more positively within a 3 month timeframe, then the camps are the next natural step.

The above is likely to go against much of STW's pretty left leaning views, but on the other hand, there has to be a case for not rewarding bad behaviour with continuing subsidy.

there should probably be a primary step of benefits being stopped first,

Yeah, stopping the income stream for those on the edge of criminality, that's a plan of considerable genius.

Anyone been to Rhyll lately?

To be honest, I think Scum Villages already exist in the UK. They get selected gradually by people moving out of certain villages in preference for other ones. Those left behind are simply the ones that can't afford to move. You'd see a Copper maybe once every two years where my Folks live, go to a village 4 miles away and there out every weekend with a continuous presence during 'drinking hours'

And is there that much difference between what the Dutch are doing and a Estate with a high density of social housing?

Give everyone the same upbringing and chances in life?....

+1. Although it should be similar upbringing. But here on STW a lot of people who have commented want two things:

1: Out of sight, out of mind
2: Don't want to pay for it.

So, the conclusion is that those undesirables can go somewhere else to rot.

The above is likely to go against much of STW's pretty left leaning views

😆

Have you been reading this thread?

And is there that much difference between what the Dutch are doing and a Estate with a high density of social housing?

Yes. The Dutch villages have a constant social worker presence to help support these families in changing their lifestyles. A sink estate doesn't.

Send council junkies to dedicated islands. Stornaway is big enough to fill them up

You'll need a big wall to keep 'em out of Harris though. It's nice there!

So "the Reich" and/or an "ultra right wing, neo Nazi Dutch fella" live on in the form of:

Van der Laan, Amsterdam's _ a _ _ ur mayor?

The world gets stranger!

A sink estate doesn't.

So, you are saying we are already doing something worse?

killwillforchips - Member
That ultra right wing neo Nazi dutch fella's idea is a little naive. All he's doing if such an idea would be successful is social cleansing. But by doing this you're mearly relocating the problem to fester and grow into an even bigger problem that would spread like a social cancer.

Before we get into left/right name calling, can I just put it out there that this is being put into place by the Mayor who is in their Labour party.

Eberhard van der Laan, Amsterdam's Labour mayor...

The plan echoes a proposal from Geert Wilders, the leader of a populist Dutch Right-wing party

I agree with your point though.

A sink estate doesn't.

So, you are saying we are already doing something worse?

Have you been to Ordsall? The place where that young Indian tourist was recently shot in the face 'for a laugh'?

Not only do we have no social workers, they are effectively police no-go areas. The police say this isn't the case. Would you walk through there after dark? Not for all the Carbon fibre in CRC!

Not for the Carbon Fibre in CRC no.

I might put my running shoes on for a custom Feather Bicycles creation though

On the face of it I like it. Stick all the scummy people in scum town and leave everywhere else nice. I guess the main problem is that the scum people have kids. And in scum town all their role-models and peers will be scum. No incentive to get a job, as it's not going to be part of the scum town ethos and the scum will drag you back down if you aspire to better yourself.
So either sterilise them all, or keep in the greater society where at least there's a slim chance they might find a better life.

Binners, yep I know what your saying.

Just trying to highlight that these areas already exist. I'd imagine that every town and city already has areas that are segregated along divisions of various types.

This Dutch idea, although troubling in may respects. Doesn't seem any worse. However, I'm struggling to believe that they would be so well policed etc after a decade or so of existence.

So either sterilise them all

Drone flypasts on the island we stick 'em on. Sorted. 😉

An interesting about-face from the current Dutch policy which is hinted at in the quote

"The aim is not to reward people who behave badly with a new five-room home with a south-facing garden. This is supposed to be a deterrent,"

At the moment problem families are moved into affluent areas and given a nice house in the sweet hope that doing so will raise them up. It seems not to work.

They've already done it. Its called Nottingham

Don't start on shottingham. I lived outside it for a few years with no problems. Not the nicest place but I'd rather be there than some of englands other unmentionables.

We are indeed already there. Its just been done progressively over the years, without it ever being spoken about publicly. The cap on housing benefits coming in to force, is basically going to achieve precisely this in London. Social cleansing, in effect. There are going to be thousands of families shipped out of central London to sink estates where they won't be bothering the aspirational middle clases.

Out of sight, out of mind

At least the Dutch have the balls to say what they're doing. As opposed to Ian Duncan Smith, dressing it up

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/04/london-boroughs-housing-families-outside-capital ]the same policy, in all but name[/url]

However, I'm struggling to believe that they would be so well policed etc after a decade or so of existence.

That's the first thing that I thought too. Christ only knows what effect the central London exodus is going to have on some already impoverished areas that will be the new dumping grounds. But I wouldn't fancy living there!!!

This already exists does it not?? The defining line being everywhere inside the M60 😀

It's a difficult one because it's as people say, either a thinly veiled excuse for shipping the poor out of the larger cities, or it is genuinely aimed only at those who consistently cause a nuisance and make everyone elses lives a living hell. The dutch far right guy makes me cringe though, creepy as hell.

If it's the latter then I guess It's a good thing. Some people stuck in housing estates WANT to better themselves, want a better job, want to contribute to society, want their own home, but have to jump through rings to fight for that whilst having to put up with the lowest class of human muck imaginable - people intent on ripping off the government with benefits for their 8 children and their "disability" whilst selling drugs on the street corner and being a genuine pain in the arse to everyone else just trying to get on with life in the decent way.

Which takes me back to Rhyl, is/was that place still being used as a dumping ground for Heroin addicts?

But what if the Dutch Prime Ministers plane gets hijacked and crashes in the village eh?

What are they going to do to rescue him?

this is the beginning of the end.

In my village there are a group of about 5 or 6 18/19 year olds who pretty much cause everyone grief. Drinking, pot smoking out on the streets into the early hours, bricks through windows, graffiti on people's property, vandalising cars. The usual stuff. Generally unpleasant kids.

They'd fit the bill for this sort of scheme but luckily for them they are very middle class, mummy and daddy are very wealthy and they have a villa in France ya so it's not really antisocial behaviour, it's just kids being jolly and what what.

I never understood that, y'know. We've got a large, sunny island over there and a small, damp one over here. We want rid of our undesireables, so we stay here and ship them off. *facepalm*

Congratulations you have just won the internet

[img] [/img]

There are a lot of truly horrible and prejudiced people posting in this thread.

Love the way the hand wringers have conveniently ignored the part about 24 hour police and social worker intervention....seems like the Dutch are trying to assist the people they move rather than just ship them off somewhere.

This forum is a joke, it seems to be a shop front for oh so PC credentials, I guarantee most on here would have a different opinion if they lived next door to idiots who had people coming and going at all hours and playing music into the early hours every day of the week....it's no fun and the whole street suffers despite warnings from the police/council etc....moving them instead of rewarding bad behaviour is the right thing to do.

Bizarre that we seem to know that rewarding bad behaviour is wrong when raising children but then slip into this cycle when dealing with adults?!

Sounds like a very interesting plan.

Name could do with a bit of work though.

years ago they used to send 'undesirables'to other parts of the world, Australia took very many i believe

Create social problems, then blame the poor for them, nice......

In defence of that policy, it worked out rather well didn't it? Oz is no longer a sink estate and people want to move there.

Have you been to Ordsall? The place where that young Indian tourist was recently shot in the face 'for a laugh'?
.... Would you walk through there after dark?

Yes, I did do regularly for 5 years on my way home at gone midnight from town.

Never saw any bother..maybe the odd smashed car window but that was it (and you get that anywhere some numpty leaves something on display).

dooosuk - strolling down Regents Road? Or actually walking through Ordsall estate?

thisisnotaspoon - Are you suggesting that in 20 years Ordsall could have thriving tourist industry? 😆

I can't see a problem with it as long as it is the asbo undesirables who are sent to live in Scum Town.
They should also periodically board up everyone's doors and windows and torch the place.

It seems to me that this plan, whilst it is drastic, is only a pragmatic acknowledgement of the fact that poor people are in practice ghettoised, and that the real victims of anti social & criminal behaviour are other poor people.

In practice, in most cities and towns, there are places where they ship off all the problem people - places like Elephant & Castle/Peckham in London, St Anns in Nottingham. In Paris they have massive sink estates all round the Banlieue area where all the poor people are made to live. I presume there are similar areas in Amsterdam.

So if you start with the depressing assumption that this geographical ghettoisation is going to happen whatever, it seems in some ways quite progressive to try and focus on protecting those poor people from the effects of crime and anti social behaviour and letting people try and live worthwhile lives, and intensively supporting those responsible for the bad behaviour to get their act together and give a damn about everyone else. Presumably the fact they only seem to be planning small numbers of these implies they are hoping people will only stay there temporarily, hence they are expecting people to reform to some extent.

binners - down Ordsall Lane towards Exchange Quay, right past the shooting. I'm not saying it's a nice area, but there are other areas in Manchester I'd be more worried about walking around.

moving them instead of rewarding bad behaviour is the right thing to do.

nearly but not quite..

Democratic community lynch mob is absolutely the right thing to do..
I've been an annoying neighbour and I've lived next to annoying neighbours..
I've lived in good areas and bad areas and been a victim of violent crime on more than a couple of occasions

Nothing sorts the problem out quicker than community spirit

Disclaimer - this may not work in areas where there are a lot of very antisocial problem families

There are a lot of truly horrible and prejudiced people posting in this thread.

If there is, perhaps it's because many have been affected by anti social behavior and develop strong views on it.

I have, and it's only my fleetness of foot that's enabled me escape two muggings the first to be enforced with a broken bottle and the second a knife. And a former house mate who took a kicking because someone wanted his pizza has strong views too.

All that said, it is a deeply unsettling thing. It's like creating an open prison for people you cant put in a full on prison. Sweep them under the carpet and pretend there not there. But as already has been said, these things pretty much exist already.

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittt

are they really making Hamsterdam near Amsterdam?

[img] [/img]

These things aren't new - they used to be called ghettos. See also concentration camp.

I would stick em all on a island .....then nuke it. 😈

That is not a valid excuse.

What's the radiation levels like on the isle of Wight since last weeks nuking of it?

That is not a valid excuse.

Trying to understand how someone has come to a position is not giving an excuse.

If there is, perhaps it's because many have been affected by anti social behavior and develop strong views on it.

I have, and it's only my fleetness of foot that's enabled me escape two muggings the first to be enforced with a broken bottle and the second a knife. And a former house mate who took a kicking because someone wanted his pizza has strong views too.

You realise they are crimes not just socially unacceptable behaviour? We already have prisons for those who commit such acts, and that doesn't seem to be working either, who really thinks that "prison lite" would help, and that the supposed social help and 24 monitoring by police officers would really happen or even be budgeted for.

They won't be put there to get the help and treatment, they will be put there to be kept out of the way to become more feral and dangerous, become more ostracised and resentful of the rest of society, to become an even lower layer of life everyone can turn their noses up at and blame for all our problems.

Probably worth mentioning I don't think this things a good idea

Just trying to develop a greater understand of it

glitchy

double glitchy

I thought Dave said, if there were more hugs going around, this whole frightful thing would be sorted by now, without the need for ghetto's or ethnic cleansing?

[img] [/img]

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt

Given the success of faith schools, the government should encourage religions to set up faith villages.
Give religions the right to build new towns on green belt land on the proviso that they take in those who have troubled souls and that the authorities dump on them.
All they need is a bit of love an morality to change.

send all the scum children to eton ?

see that picture you posted up there then binners..?

D'you reckon that having such a bunch of toffee nosed pillocks in charge is part of the problem then..?
Would our youth have such a problem with authority if the authority figures at the highest level were a bit more representative of the general populace..?

Instead of being bred on milk and honey and wearing suits, and never having to fight for anything in their entire lives, sitting around at dinner parties and braying heartily.. what if our 'leaders' wore jeans, had weatherbeaten faces and a few worry lines and smoked fags and that..?

Given the success of faith schools, the government should encourage religions to set up faith villages.
Give religions the right to build new towns on green belt land on the proviso that they take in those who have troubled souls and that the authorities dump on them.
All they need is a bit of love an morality to change.

Most obvious troll ever, you shouldn't have let it all out in one go.

You realise they are crimes not just socially unacceptable behaviour?

Yes I do. Problem is that the law wasn't enforced by the Police.

The incidents where reported.