Scottish winter adventure?

You could go up Cairngorm from the Ski carpark*, over Ben MacDui and make your way down to the Hutchison Hut for a night before walking back out. That would probably satiate a good "Winter Explorer" feel. It can be pretty wild up there. Big day out in short daylight hours & you gotta be good at nav but doable, especially starting high up at the carpark.

*If you wanted to make it interesting and you know what you're doing with good axe & crampon technique, you could go up via Fiacaill Ridge - there is an easier variant just to the right of the crest but it's still fairly consequential ground. This also means you have to backtrack a bit if you wanted to tick off the actual Cairngorm Summit.

Assuming "trek" means on foot....

Linn of Dee to Coylumbridge via the Lairig Ghru overnighting at Corrour Bothy could work. Day one could be a mission though in the winter- you'd need to be comfortable doing the first few hours in the dark. And you'd be a high risk taker not to take a tent just in case there is no room. Bit of an admin faff - would need a couple of cars and a long slog back to pickup the car left at the start point. But it's a proper rite of passage. And it takes some weather to fill the Lairg Ghru with snow and its slow going if it is.

Easier would be a loop from Cas Car Park up Ben MacDui then down and camp at Loch Avon before hopping over the top back to the car the next day. Possibly even sleep under the shelter stone if you can handle the rubbish left behind. Far more chance of snow on the plateau. I can't over emphasis the benefit of walking crampons (or those micro spikes) on the plateau which does a pretty epic version of boiler plate ice on the flat.

Usual caveats - winter involves a huge ramp in weather related risk. A cold and snowy bluebird day is a much more pleasant experience but is much easier to achieve if you are a local or completely 100% able to drop everything at a moments notice to come up.

We would probably take a tent out of preference, I don't think I want to share a bothy 🙂

I would be tempted by a grade I/II gulley.  He already has some B2 boots, I am waiting for an occasion to buy some.

Re the weather, yes of course always an issue. I would plan a weekend and then do something else or cancel if the forecast had a prospect of bad weather, I've got no qualms doing that.

Just not familiar with the area.

So are you familiar with the conditions? They can be pretty intense and unpredictable up on even relatively low peaks in the middle of summer. 

You might not want to share bothies but planning them in isn't a terrible idea. You can cook and get warm and still nip out to camp, its pretty common.

I don't think I want to share a bothy

I know the sentiment...but. I had a very uncomfortable night in the gorms a couple of years ago in December. Long gone dark and the choice was pitching in 50mph winds on snow/ice or dropping down below the snowline and pitching behind a boulder...in an inch or two of standing melt water. Both sub optimal. 

I would plan a weekend and then do something else or cancel if the forecast had a prospect of bad weather

Actually, I think it might be going a step further.....planning a 1-2 month window and waiting for good weather. That's clearly logistically much tougher to achieve.

Yeah I'd share a bothy if I thought I'd need it, but I would always take a tent anyway and it would be my first choice unless not viable.  Quite happy to plan to go to the bothy and make a call at the time whether to use it or camp nearby so you're right it's not a bad idea.

So are you familiar with the conditions? They can be pretty intense and unpredictable up on even relatively low peaks in the middle of summer

Well, plenty of Welsh peaks in all sorts of conditions including cold, snow, gales, zero visibility etc and all of the above, I've been to some cold parts of the world, I've been in difficult situations.  The only thing I haven't had to deal with is avalanche risk but I'm aware of the issues.

These are good suggestions, exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of.

I was going to suggest the Linn of Dee to Sugarbowl carpark (slightly shorter variation on Coylumbridge) via the Lairig Ghru using Corrour. If you have a willing accomplice who'll drive you round, getting dropped off at the Braemar end saves a lot of logistical faff. Maybe worth pricing a taxi up, or bus for part of it?

Sharing a bothy that deep in the 'gorms won't be a problem- if the conditions are such that a bothy is required as an alternative to camping, then the only other people there will be equally experienced in winter walking, and thus suitably versed in bothy etiquette too. ("The bothy is never full", etc) Corrour even has an outside netty nowadays.

Granted the through route doesn't involve a hill as such, or any scrambing etc, but the Pools of Dee are 2700ft in themselves, so you're reasonably high.

If you do go for a gully, I was pleasantly surprised by the abundance of gear on Jacob's Ladder last year. My previous experience of easy gullies was that they were usually solos, but this one was stitched like a kipper.

Having said which, I'm not sure it'd be fun with sleeping gear and climbing gear...... Seriously heavy

Yeah not sure about climbing. At most I would look for something like Banana Gully - Grade 1 gully on Y Garn, Snowdonia (fast forward to 1.10) which is Grade I, and you could easily do it with a couple of screws and a skinny rope.  A lot of people do it with just one walking axe.

Another option - Glen Feshie to Larig Gruh over the plateaux. The bothy in the Feshie is big enough that sharing won't be an issue. Or good camping nearby.

Logistic easier than Linn of Dee to Speyside.

Or Glen Einich - Carn Toul - Corrour overnight, back to car via Larig Gruh.

suggest the Linn of Dee to Sugarbowl carpark (slightly shorter variation on Coylumbridge) via the Lairig Ghru using Corrour. If you have a willing accomplice who'll drive you round, getting dropped off at the Braemar end saves a lot of logistical faff. Maybe worth pricing a taxi up, or bus for part of it?

I hope lawman will forgive me for having doubts about this one as a first CG adventure. My ( admittedly fairly limited) experience of the gorms in winter is utterly ferocious weather. The big problem there, unlike the pointy west coast mountains, is navigation and the sheer time it takes to lose height in an emergency. If you do the Ghru then the logistics will be quite significant and may push you towards making bad decisions if the weather is marginal. The advantage of the other options is lower commitment 

I mean, I'm sure it'll be great, but since this is a discussion forum I'm suggesting West may be better, or at least a route with better escape options.

.

These days you would have some idea of the weather risk before you set out though?

Good point re the escape options though as the topography is less of an issue down here.

These days you would have some idea of the weather risk before you set out though?

Yes indeed. Exactly that..... You've paid in advance for a taxi ( can't imagine how much that would be) or arranged with a mate to drop you off on one specific weekend in Braemar..

As it gets closer to the weekend you realise the forecast is looming a bit dicey... But you've paid fir the taxi,/ only got the possibility of a lift that weekend.... whaddays do?

Forgiven! Three of us did it Feb 1990 when the climbing club were staying for a week in Aviemore. The club chairman fancied a day off so he was happy to drive us round to the Linn. Other days in the same week we'd been up on the tops, and it was a decent distraction from hill bagging when the weather forecast was a bit less friendly at 4000ft. So we drew up a 'bad weather' plan. Turned out to be reasonable enough in the Ghru, just a bit breezy.

Is hitch hiking as easy in the UK mountains as it used to be? All of our one-way trips have relied on the generosity of drivers, and in the mountains locally it's rare for many cars to go past before one stops. 

But a touring adventure without skis! Why? 😛 

I tend to agree with the general point about a loop being simpler (and cheaper) logistically, and therefore easier to manage according to a weather window being available. 

I'm not a bothy fan either and always carry my own shelter, but would be prepared for indoor sleeping if the conditions demanded. 

It's worth re-iterating just how long the nights are. Either expect to be walking for many hours in the dark or for a long night in a sleeping bag. 

A loop taking in Glen Eaniach, Carn Toul and back over Macdui and Cairn Lochan would be a fine outing, with a possible escape down the Lairig Ghru if required. I guess it depends just how much has to be at high level and what the snow levels are on the day. 

No comment would be worthwhile without a suitable photo of the area in question...

With all the usual caveats around experience, fitness and conditions, here are a few suggestions.

Tranter's Round or a shorter variation over two days with either a camp in Glen Nevis or a night in Meanach bothy. It's really easy to shorten the full round so you could tailor it to fitness/enthusiasm.

From Coylumbridge up the start of the Lairig Ghru, climb South Gully on Lurchers (easy I) over Macdui to camp near Corrour. Back via Angel's Ridge on Sgor and Lochain Uaine (easy I) and over Braeriach then down to the Lairig Ghru again.

From Cairngorm ski centre into Sneachda, up Aladdin's, down Coire Domhain, up Castlegates Gully then down to the Hutchy Hut. Back via one of the Grade I gullies in Coire Sputan Dearg and over Macdui.

The last two routes could also be done without the grade I routes if required.

Northern Highlands curveball...

From Inverlael over Seana Bhraigh to Magoo's bothy. One of the best bothies in the country and unlikely to be busy. Several options for exactly how to do this. Back via one of the Grade I gullies in Luchd Coire of Seana Bhraigh.

I would be tempted by a grade I/II gulley

I've given you a few suggestions for this but don't underestimate how hard that might feel with overnight kit. Probably best to keep it to the easier end of Grade I, anything harder can feel brutal hard with a big bag and even easy Grade Is can be tough/scary in hard snow conditions.

From Invercauld, up over The Stuic (nice easy scramble) to camp at the Dubh Loch. Back over Lochnagar.

I don't have enough parameters to suggest a route for you personally but I'd say to most people that travelling a long way to the cairngorms and not spending some time in the Loch Avon basin is madness. Lots of decent camping near the shelterstone and a pretty reliable (if long) poor weather escape route through strath nethy.

Faindouran bothy is never going to be full in the winter and there are lots of route options around it. Could be a good poorer weather option.

Posted by: molgrips

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We would probably take a tent out of preference, I don't think I want to share a bothy

IMO by doing this you're missing out on one of the key things that give the highlands their character. Either you'll have the bothy to yourself, or you'll meet some interesting folk. If you're worried that it might be overcrowded/too noisy then take your tent as back-up.

My view is that bothy nights can be a major highlight of a trip to the Scottish mountains, turning what would otherwise have been a grey/white trudge into an uplifting experience. Most other bothy users are friends you haven't met (yet).

Posted by: joshvegas

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You can cook and get warm

Don't forget to take wood, then (as well as climbing gear, contingency camping gear, spare layers, food)

Most other bothy users are friends you haven't met (yet).

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, the word 'most' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. I think a lot of us have met folk in bothies that are both perfectly pleasant and others that in other circumstances you'd actively avoid. I guess it's the ratio of arse to sound in your back catalogue that colours your viewpoint. My experience has been mostly good. I did meet one young man who was clearly living between a handful of bothies and implied he was 'escaping'. He didn't clarify if that was escaping a relationship, the modern world or the law.....and on balance it was something I thought I'd sleep better if I didn't know. Most of the times I've elected to move on it was when larger groups were using it (normally less than the 6 limit) and made it very clear they were going to do as they pleased and your company was not part of their plans.

It's at this time of year that Garry Smith's "Scotland's Winter Mountains with one axe" book comes out with a dram or two in the evenings. Coffee table book come guide and a bit west coast centric for my location (I think there one two routes in the gorms) but good never the less.

My view is that bothy nights can be a major highlight of a trip to the Scottish mountains, turning what would otherwise have been a grey/white trudge into an uplifting experience. Most other bothy users are friends you haven't met (yet).

Clearly you are more extroverted than me!

don't underestimate how hard that might feel with overnight kit. Probably best to keep it to the easier end of Grade I, anything harder can feel brutal hard with a big bag and even easy Grade Is can be tough/scary in hard snow conditions.

I won't,  I have experience to draw on.

I won't, I have experience to draw on. 

Would you be planning on soloing any route? Even a light rope and rack is going to add kilos to an already heavy bag and pitching grade ones is pretty time consuming.

I don't know if I'd pack a rope, I'd plan my route to include one or not, depending on what I decide to do. I'd consider various options starting on what's given here, then I'd do masses of research on what things were like and I'd shortlist a few options. Then I'd try various kit lists and see how it feels with the amount of food we might need, which varies depending on how long we'd be out which would in turn vary depending on the conditions.  If there's room for a rope I might bring one and include a route that I might want one on.  But I'd put several options in the car and make a call when I get there, probably.  I doubt I'd take a rack, if I took a rope it would be alpine style.  Maybe one or two screws just in case it's icy enough to warrant it.

No-one so far has mentioned snow shoes. The idea of heading out into probably snowy terrain without either skis or snow shoes on my feet sounds like misery to me. Wading through snow in boots is exhausting when lightly loaded but with an overnight bag not something I'd do. I agree with the comments about climbing with a heavy pack unless you're used to it and very fit, again misery.  Given the very long nights I think I'd just do day loops. Travel light and fast, leave before dawn and aim to be back into very easy terrain before dark.

As for the rope, maybe a very short thin one, say 10m. Waist ties and a shoulder belay in case the lead climber feels uncomfortable. Enough to stop a slide but not a fall.

Yeah I've thought about snow shoes, I'd decide based on the conditions.  These days we can get decent snow reports.

if I took a rope it would be alpine style. Maybe one or two screws just in case it's icy enough to warrant it.

 

 

 

 

I'm struggling to think of any grade 1 gullies where you could place decent ice screws in preference to rock gear, especially in the Cairngorms. Anything with an icy step is by definition not grade 1 (IMLE) 

As for the rope, maybe a very short thin one, say 10m. Waist ties and a shoulder belay in case the lead climber feels uncomfortable. Enough to stop a slide but not a fall.

I'm keen to know others' view on this. It sounds of very limited benefit to me. It might be worth it for a second, but surely you are kidding yourself if you think you can hold a leader 'slide' with presumably no belay. Surely this is the definition of leader mustn't fall. Not to mention the insane amount of time it would take to do a climb in 10- 22 pitches!

No-one so far has mentioned snow shoes

They're rarely much use in Scotland. The combination of lack of snow, wind scouring, rocky terrain and the regular temperature fluctuations mean that you don't often get the kind of conditions that make them helpful.

As for the rope, maybe a very short thin one, say 10m. Waist ties and a shoulder belay in case the lead climber feels uncomfortable. Enough to stop a slide but not a fall.

On the type of terrain the op is talking about this would be useless at best and a disaster waiting to happen at worst.

I'm struggling to think of any grade 1 gullies where you could place decent ice screws in preference to rock gear, especially in the Cairngorms. 

I was about to say the same. Far better to take a small rock rack and a few slings.

I'm keen to know others' view on this

See above, I think it's awful advice!

You'd be surprised what you can hold with a shoulder/axe belay, the generalist. Have a play someday. I've held one fall with a shoulder belay just wedged in a stream passage when caving. The idea is you just climb together unless either climber starts to feel uncomfortable. If it's the second the leader digs in and belays on the axe or shoulder depending on how deep/resistant the snow is. If it's the lead who's uncomfortable then really you should be turning around but it can be (perhaps false) confidence giving to have someone giving you a shoulder or axe belay. In places I've used the technique I don't think I've had to dig in and belay more than a few times just for the more awkward or steeper bits. We're talking grade 1 here I believe.

I not alone in this, I've been on the same route as a guide in the Alps with their client moving together with occasional stances in exactly the same way, but with fewer stances.

Edit: you people know the terrain better than me so I suggest Molgrips take your ideas on board not mine. It struck me he was trying to decide whether he needed a rope at all. In those cases a short rope is better than nothing IMO. I've often done routes with my wife which I'd be happy doing without myself. The rope gives her confidence and I'm absolutely certain of being able to hold her however rudimentary the stance/belay.

 I doubt I'd take a rack, if I took a rope it would be alpine style

Hmm, not sure exactly what you mean here but a rope is of psychological value only if you don't also have the means to belay. On a ridge this can be the natural belays afforded by the terrain but in a gully it's more likely to be leader placed rock protection. Whether you pitch it or move together with runners in between is another decision to make based on conditions and ability but roping up and moving together with no running belays between you is a waste of time.

Was it Patey who defined a solo climber as 'one climber falling alone' and a roped party as '2 climbers falling together'? That's the scenario you put yourself in it you're roped up but not belayed.

I not alone in this, I've been on the same route as a guide in the Alps with their client moving together with occasional stances in exactly the same way,

Guide best practice in the Alps is not the same a independent climber best practice in Scotland. If indeed they were demonstrating best practice, being a guide is not a guarantee of that.

Was it Patey who defined a solo climber as 'one climber falling alone' and a roped party as '2 climbers falling together'? That's the scenario you put yourself in it you're roped up but not belayed.

In my view it depends on the route and the snow conditions.  If you're on a 45 degree slope and you're in a foot of soft snow on a harder base, you're not really going anywhere.  Even if you slip, you're not going to slide. The risk is if the snow field is hard ice and you are kicking steps.  If you slip in that scenario and you fluff your self-arrest, you might end up sliding a long way.  The rope is to give your partner or partners chance to dig in and help break your fall.  If you have crampons with front points, you're again pretty unlikely to need the rope.

Something like these two guys: Self arrest

They're rarely much use in Scotland. The combination of lack of snow, wind scouring, rocky terrain and the regular temperature fluctuations mean that you don't often get the kind of conditions that make them helpful.

Was going to say the same. Doesn't mean there have not been some stretches I'd have liked a pair. But there's a reason you'd struggle to find a pair for sale in the shops in Aviemore. 

Bigger picture....got to confess in my own time I'm far more drawn to taking some touring skis and finding a route I can skin up & slide down if conditions allow. Not that I don't enjoy a winter walk anymore, but it's now mostly 2nd favourite.....scratch that maybe 4th favourite after a cross country ski and a fat bike too. 

But a touring adventure without skis! Why?

Cos neither of us ski, and the Cairngorm Plateau is probably not the place to start learning!  Actually I can XC ski, but I wouldn't back myself up there.

Posted by: Spin

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Was it Patey who defined a solo climber as 'one climber falling alone' and a roped party as '2 climbers falling together'? That's the scenario you put yourself in it you're roped up but not belayed.

True to a point. The fact that climbers do climb roped up and moving together is that in many situations it is better than nothing. A French team has just done one of the remaining unclimbed Himalayan summits over 7000m Alpine style. It was unclimbed because "unclimable" due to it being a nightmare of cornices and steep snow - in all the footage I've seen they're roped up and moving together.

There's a speed versus objective risk factor. By moving together you spend less time exposed to objective risks than if you pitch the whole lot. 

Still, each to his own, do whatever feels safe and right to you. I'll continue to have a short rope in the pack because that avoids having a freaked out wife. 🙂

If you're on a 45 degree slope and you're in a foot of soft snow on a harder base, you're not really going anywhere. Even if you slip, you're not going to slide.

Totally agree.

The risk is if the snow field is hard ice and you are kicking steps. If you slip in that scenario and you fluff your self-arrest, you might end up sliding a long way. The rope is to give your partner or partners chance to dig in and help break your fall. If you have crampons with front points, you're again pretty unlikely to need the rope.

I'm a bit unclear what you're saying here, but think you may be referring to climbing without crampons in the first bit....?

In which case I think the clear solution is to put crampons on in preference to a rope.

The risk is if the snow field is hard ice and you are kicking steps.  If you slip in that scenario and you fluff your self-arrest, you might end up sliding a long way.  The rope is to give your partner or partners chance to dig in and help break your fall. 

All that will happen there is that the second climber will be pulled off too and if no gear has been placed they'll both fall to the bottom of the slope. The chances of your partner being able to hold you without a belay are very small. 

True to a point...

It's quite clear that you have absolutely no clue about the type of terrain we're talking about here or what constitutes best practice in moving across such terrain. And yet you continue to confidently spout nonsense to try and make it look like you know what you're on about.

Normally that wouldn't trouble me too much because normally it's low consequence stuff but on this occasion it is dangerous advice you're giving. 

As a tangent, with the easy gully protection thing, snow stakes / pickets, as used in the Andes work surprisingly well in Scotland if the snowpack is up to it and are quick to place, or you could even use a Dead Man, bury an ice axe - very retro - etc. I'd also say that protection is always going to depend on conditions. You could, potentially, place an ice screw in a grade one gully in the Gorms, if the conditions were right, but you're more likely to find rock protection most of the time ime. 

Anyway, if you're going to be wandering across the Cairngorm plateau, it's arguably more important to be able to micronavigate  rather than place gear on relatively easy ground. Cairngorm white-outs are something else and it's very easy to wander off over the edge / fall through a cornice you didn't even see. There are great swathes of featureless ground and it's not much like anywhere in Snowdonia in that respect. 

I'd just choose your weekend and weather carefully. It's a fantastic area when things are good, but a miserable, dangerous place when it craps out. Just walking out can be a brutal business. 

Faindouran  bothy is a good shout. In fact seeing as this is an MTB  forum you could bike in from Tomintoul for 3 nights which would let you spend time in the middle of nowhere, have a couple of hill days while having the load capacity  to carry in a bit of wood and coal.

About 14 miles from memory  Much of it tarmac and most of  the rest decent forestry  style track.

In which case I think the clear solution is to put crampons on in preference to a rope.

Indeed, and I would certainly have crampons.  I have a rope labelled as 'walking' rope or some such, it's really very light, so I don't mind chucking it in the bag.

So rather than slinging mud, can we focus on the real question here which is on an icy slope, how much could a roped up climber hope to slow the descent of his partner?  Like Ed, I was shown how to rope up and move together on an Alpine glacier.  I assume that if it's good enough to arrest people falling vertically down a crevasse, it would also work for someone sliding down a slope. The difference in that situation was that there were four of us roped up, and it would be likely on this trip that we'd only be two.  That said I did half of Central Trinity Gulley roped up to a partner without putting in any gear, but that was mainly because stopping to un-rope would have been far more difficult and risky!

It's a fantastic area when things are good, but a miserable, dangerous place when it craps out

A fair point - would you go somewhere else for an easy winter adventure?

can we focus on the real question here which is on an icy slope, how much could a roped up climber hope to slow the descent of his partner?

The short answer is not at all. 

Like Ed, I was shown how to rope up and move together on an Alpine glacier. I assume that if it's good enough to arrest people falling vertically down a crevasse it would also work for someone sliding down a slope

This is an incorrect assumption, a fall into a crevasse is very different from a slide on an icy slope. More often than not crevasse falls are short, often not even all the way in and there's a lot of friction with the rope running over the edge. It's also more likely to be the person in front that falls giving those behind a chance to react. None of this is likely to be the case in a fall on icy terrain. 

One of my main climbing partners over the last 25 years is an MIC and has worked regularly at Glenmore Lodge. When we're out climbing together he often picks up on poor practice from other climbers. I think climbers moving together on easy but high consequence terrain with no protection is probably the most common thing he notices, it's usually accompanied by moans of 'why?why?'

A fair point - would you go somewhere else for an easy winter adventure?

The gorms are probably your best bet, just pick a good couple of days.

Posted by: Spin

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It's quite clear that you have absolutely no clue about the type of terrain we're talking about here or what constitutes best practice in moving across such terrain. And yet you continue to confidently spout nonsense to try and make it look like you know what you're on about.

Normally that wouldn't trouble me too much because normally it's low consequence stuff but on this occasion it is dangerous advice you're giving. 

Spin true to Internet persona. Bigs himself up with references to his amazing mountaineering God mates and assumes the rest of us are idiots who struggle up Jacob's ladder at Chedar. I suppose if I found that quote funny I'd be accused of trolling, but it's hilarious. LOL

This was how I entered the thread and in typical style you decided to get stuck in 

Posted by: Edukator

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As for the rope, maybe a very short thin one, say 10m. Waist ties and a shoulder belay in case the lead climber feels uncomfortable. Enough to stop a slide but not a fall.

Not exactly controversial. 

How many crevasses have you crossed, fallen into or held falls into? And yet you allow yourself an opinion about the amount of friction (**** all) and ease of holding a fall. In a crevasse fall you've got the full weight, free fall and you aren't dug in. On a gully slope you've only got a part of the weight because it's a slope, there's some friction slowing the victim, you're leaning into the slope and stable, and if there's a high chance of sliding only one person will be moving - the other will be dug in at worst, and have a foot on the axe with the rope on a crab through the hole with a demi-cabeston at best. I know which I'd rather try to hold - though I'd hope that good choices meant not needing to hold either.

All opinions and experiences welcome, Spin, but avoid the slagging off eh, you just make yourself look like a... and stifle the thread.

I have every confidence in Molgrips to research what he's doing and not take as absolute everything written here. He's fishing for ideas which we're providing and will make his own choices based on his own ability, experience, and research.

I continue to have a bit of rope in my pack for some trips that shouldn't need full gearing up because sometimes something is better than nothing. I've lost one good friend in a place that was easy peasy on the Monte Rosa because he wasn't roped up and a silly trip and slide ended a thousand metres lower. The vast majority of fatalities locally are either avalanche or silly trips/falls on easy ground that would easily be held.

Posted by: Spin

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A fair point - would you go somewhere else for an easy winter adventure?

The gorms are probably your best bet, just pick a good couple of days.

The Cairngorms are fab, stunning and arctic, but not when the conditions are crap. I once did a really nice winter two-dayer in the Lakes stopping in the Dubs Hut overnight. Nothing technical, but scenic and snowy. Tbf if you want winter, you're far more likely to find it in the 'gorms than the Lakes these days. Also, all this stuff depends on how capable you are, the thing with full winter conditions is that things go south quite rapidly if you screw up.

I'm not sure why I even bother engaging with you Edukator, it's entirely predictable how it will pan out. You'll ignore the actual criticism and weave a web of irrelevance round it, presumably so that you can maintain the illusion that you know what you're talking about. However on this occasion the advice you gave was actually dangerous so I felt I had to.

Edit: you people know the terrain better than me so I suggest Molgrips take your ideas on board not mine. It struck me he was trying to decide whether he needed a rope at all. In those cases a short rope is better than nothing IMO.

Sorry Edukator, I missed this edit to your original post. I agree 100% with your suggestion that the OP should ignore your advice to take 10m of rope on a Scottish gully climb.

There you go, we can agree on some things! 

Edit to avoid escalation given your last post.

The short answer is not at all

SSerious and important question: do you have experience of that? I mean the two guys in the video are managing to stop or slow each other with the rope. Clearly if it's hard ice it will be different but as we know, snow varies a lot.

I suppose that, if you found yourself on a sheer ice slope where you felt at risk, you could pay the rope out and improvise a belay one at a time using an axe. In order to do that on demand you'd have to be wearing the rope in the first place so that might answer your mate's question of 'why?'

This thread needs more winter pics. And I know that a few of the posters here have an extensive back catalogue of stunning images...

A nice overnight and winter daunder up Mt Keen:

https://flic.kr/p/2pr6GW4

If you get the weather right, the Ochils substitute for the Cairngorms rather well...

https://flic.kr/p/2kBRSGA

something is better than nothing.

What would be best is the right stuff for the job, i.e. a rope that's long enough to be of use and the means to anchor yourself so that one falling climber doesn't mean 2 falling climbers.

It sounds like what you're actually talking about is something like confidence roping which has it's place but absolutely not in high consequence terrain like a snow gully.

SSerious and important question: do you have experience of that? I mean the two guys in the video are managing to stop or slow each other with the rope.

No, I don't have experience of trying to hold a sliding climber without a belay of any sort of even a bucket seat and I never want to. There are plenty of examples out there of it not working, that's why we use belays if we think a fall may happen.

I'm not really sure what that video is intended to show, it just looks like two guys larking around. What I'm taking away from it is that a. both times the rope comes tight despite the sliding climber not moving that quickly the other climber gets pulled off. b. He stops himself before the rope comes tight so the rope isn't doing anything. It's also in very soft conditions and not on particularly steep ground so not relevant to how it might play out on an icy slope.

Here are the options as I see them on grade I type terrain:

1. All of the party solo. This is likely to be the preferred option for most experienced climbers as it's quick and although the consequences of a fall might be high, the likelihood is very low. If you're not confident soloing then:

2. Pitch it. This is obviously slow but the safest option.

3. Move together placing running belays. This is a compromise between safety and speed. It's less safe than pitching but provided it's done right, safer than soloing. It also makes it very easy to switch to a pitched approach if necessary for certain sections. It is particularly useful if you have a mismatched party as the more confident climber can lead and quickly convert a runner to a direct belay if the second needs more security.

Roping up but not using any form of belay is quick but adds little to safety and as I've already said can lead to worse outcomes in the event of a slip.

Edit: IMO a lot of people placed far to much confidence in ice axe arrest. It does work but it's far from guaranteed and it's very easy to get it wrong. I've done it twice in earnest on icy terrain, it was absolutely ****ing terrifying, I got the axe in right away but I'd gone about 20m before I stopped and I'm in no doubt that my partner would have been pulled off had we been roped. This was on ground of about 30°, I can't imagine trying to do it in something like Aladdin's Couloir in icy conditions and it's wrong to consider it as a viable means of keeping you safe on that sort of terrain.

There are gullys you can wander up with a walking axe and no crampons in spring snow. There are gullys a bit steeper with harder snow which can be walked up with a walking axe and crampons. A bit steeper and a short rope used appropriately will provide some security for both climbers. There might be differences in ability and confidence that are compensated by a rope that means a lead can provide confidence and a tight rope if needed. And there's a difficulty beyond which a leader rack, ice screws and a long rope become a very good idea even if some people are quite happy solo.

Someone asked for pics. Here's an old one with a 10m rope, 😉 moving together and I'm happy because whatever she does she's not going anywhere. I've reached the ridge where it's gradually flattened out and asked her to stop for a rest and pose for a pic. The were some very short precarious sections over a big drop on the ridge that followed, not difficult but a slip/trip/topple would have been a long fall - a risk avoided with a short rope and a stance. In fact the guide suggests an ice axe and short rope - we did it very early season when there was more ice and snow so used crampons too.

http://www.pyrenees-rando.fr/Pyrenees/04PyrAtlantiques/04Ossau/Palas/00Palas.htm

I've done one ice axe arrest for real, it worked fine but I was only wearing tights and had nasty weepy burns for weeks. A lack of concentration. The biggest mistake illustrated by the climber filming in the self arrest vid above is not getting the axe under you.

As for the rope, maybe a very short thin one, say 10m. Waist ties and a shoulder belay in case the lead climber feels uncomfortable. Enough to stop a slide but not a fall.

Not exactly controversial. 

If I may be permitted to comment.... I think it is pretty controversial. It just feels totally pointless and unsafe.  Can I double check that you realise you said " lead climber" not "second"?

Don't get me wrong, I've belayed off buried rucksacks, ice axes and frequently just placing my arse in an appropriate depression/concavity.... But that has been to bring up a second. Claiming that it is safe enough for belaying a leader seems a big step

Just reread and found this:

If it's the lead who's uncomfortable then really you should be turning around but it can be (perhaps false) confidence giving to have someone giving you a shoulder or axe belay.

Sounds like we may actually be more aligned on this one 😉

That's very generous of you giving me the benefit of the doubt, thegeneralist. You're right that I should have said "second" but I actually typed what I typed. 🙂

I've just checked with Madame, she remembers me asking her for a belay once, on a traverse when she was on a safe stable rock stance. I'm sure she'd have held me if I'd slipped. She was an excellent second when rock climbing: always slack when needed and running to take up slack to avoid a ground fall. She got used to being whipped off her feet and hauled up Spanish cliffs when I was red pointing:

Arguments like this are what annoy me about climbing. There isn't one single recognised safety process, there are just loads of opinions that get argued about all the time.  And inevitably, what some people do is better than what other people do, but how do you know?  If you have a new climbing partner how can you have any confidence in what they do if it's not what you're used to?  And everyone hate being challenged, it causes arguments, so you don't do it.  It's rubbish, from a procedure point of view.

Arguments like this are what annoy me about climbing. There isn't one single recognised safety process, there are just loads of opinions that get argued about all the time. And inevitably, what some people do is better than what other people do, but how do you know? If you have a new climbing partner how can you have any confidence in what they do if it's not what you're used to? And everyone hate being challenged, it causes arguments, so you don't do it. It's rubbish, from a procedure point of view.

There isn't really an argument here, at least not in terms of different valid approaches with reasons for both. There's someone who made a daft and potentially dangerous suggestion for the situation described and others who have pointed that out.

I don't see it as a problem that there are different valid  approaches to safety. It's natural that there be more than one solution to certain problems and the same problem could have different solutions for different people. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I actually think that navigating this is one of the enjoyable challenges of climbing.

As for how you know who's competent and who's not, that can be difficult. I take it easy with new partners and don't get into serious situations until I've had a chance to assess them. I might take a shortcut in that if they come recommended by someone I trust. I haven't always got that right but fortunately it's never lead to disaster!

Edit: if you're really struggling with this, get some proper instruction, don't leave it to Muppets on the internet!

And everyone hate being challenged, it causes arguments

Any climber worth their salt will be happy to be challenged on their practice. If they react angrily that's a straight red flag. Ego should have no place in discussing safety.

True, Molgrips. All you can do is climb with someone regularly starting on easy stuff and build confidence in each other.

I did Ula in the Verdon with someone I'd met there and had never climbed with before, he was excellent, very reassuring. On the other hand I did a climb in the Lakes with a guy who was somewhat economical with gear, very worrying, and he died not much later in the Alps.

if you're really struggling with this

I'm not struggling with the safety aspect. I was taught how to belay and lead in a way that made sense and still does.  But I really don't like the fact that it's so easy to make belay mistakes, and people don't like having it pointed out to them when they do things wrong. I certainly don't.  And if you want an argument, mention assisted braking devices...

I have to teach my 18 year old nephew how to do all this.  He's pretty flippant and also pretty gung-ho, although I suspect a good deal of that is an act. But how much? He's not as cautious as I was at that age, for sure, but he is responsible. But being an 18 year old, is he really going to think of everything and do it properly when he's belaying me?  I mean it's not like I'm planning to do anything remotely difficult at this point in my life but still.  There is very little that is foolproof in this.

Posted by: molgrips

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I mean it's not like I'm planning to do anything remotely difficult at this point in my life but still.

I've just had a flashback to crossing Cairngorm plateau after a night snowholed overlooking Loch Avon. What should have been a 'out before the storm arrives in good weather' became 70mph wind with 110mph gusts, visibility down to 10m or so, with some added light snowfall to scour your skin and eyeballs off within about 10 mins of topping out the Saddle. The maybe 1.5km to get over the top and down into Coire Cas / Ptarmigan area is one of the most frightening, genuinely risky times I've had in the mountains. One chap, a 6'4" ex military Unit put his big overnight pack against his legs to put another layer on - and watched the pack and his 5'2" walking partner blow away. He rescued his buddy, but the pack was gone...so now we had one party member down spare gear, one missing ice axe, and one limping person, with another 7 of us struggling to do much other than kneel down in the gusts holding on to each other so we didn't get blown away, then compass and pace until next gust came.... Choice was pressing on pr back to Loch Avon and either a second night or long walk round into the gathering storm...It was a genuine feeling of everything unraveling faster than we could keep up.

Maybe an hour later we were wandering through the ski infrastructure on a windy day thinking 'wtf just happened ' and wishing we had got up at 5am not 6am to beat the storm...

I guess my point being that all Scottish winter hills adventures are at risk of becoming pretty heavy duty on the risk front, often out of your control.

It was last day of Winter ML so appropriate lesson for all of us.

Posted by: Edukator

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How many crevasses have you crossed, fallen into or held falls into? And yet you allow yourself an opinion about the amount of friction (**** all) and ease of holding a fall. In a crevasse fall you've got the full weight, free fall and you aren't dug in.

I've been in a crevasse and held a crevasse fall or two. It depends a little on whether the glacier is wet or dry, but unless you're quite careless, you shouldn't fall in a crevasse on a dry glacier. On a wet glacier, the rope will cut into the edge of the slot which means the fall impact is reduced, basically the rope is running over a 90˚ edge which puts some friction into the system. It's a different scenario to one where you fall on ice and accelerate incredibly fast.

Guides - and others - moving alpine style, will or should be placing the occasional bit of gear/using natural features like spikes to reduce risk slightly, but the basic premise is that you keep the rope on so you can have some minimal protection on easier ground, but swap into a more protected mode when you hit difficulties. Guides are slightly different, they'll be more adept at bracing themselves to hold a slip - basically the initial stumble - before it turns into a proper fall, which is much harder to hold. 

But basically it's easier to hold a crevasse fall because there's more friction in the system initially and you should have very little slack in the rope. It's not massively relevant to the Cairngorms unless you're roped and your partner walks off an edge, which I guess is somewhat comparable. The difficult bit then would be anchoring the rope securely enough to hoist your buddy up with a pully system, but again that's not really relevant here.

But yeah, Spin is right on this. I don't have any skin in this argument or care who's right or wrong, but having been tossed into a crevasse by Peruvian mountain guides and held the rope while someone else goes in and having taken a leader fall or two on ice, I can tell you that they are different. This has all gone a bit academic / people arguing on the internet, but that's my experience. YMMV.

Posted by: matt_outandabout

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I guess my point being that all Scottish winter hills adventures are at risk of becoming pretty heavy duty on the risk front, often out of your control.

And that basically, is the nub of it. The difference between the 'gorms and North Wales is that even if conditions aren't necessarily more severe - I've been blown off my feet in Snowdonia - the former are higher, more exposed to weather, and while on most Welsh mountains, you can drop off the side and into relative safety quite quickly, on the Cairngorm plateau it's a long way off and in bad conditions sometimes hard to walk at all, let alone walk and navigate precisely. It's just a more hostile environment if things do go wrong and to be treated with caution as a result. All imho/ime etc.

Posted by: molgrips

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I have to teach my 18 year old nephew how to do all this.  He's pretty flippant and also pretty gung-ho, although I suspect a good deal of that is an act. But how much? He's not as cautious as I was at that age, for sure, but he is responsible. But being an 18 year old, is he really going to think of everything and do it properly when he's belaying me?  I mean it's not like I'm planning to do anything remotely difficult at this point in my life but still.  There is very little that is foolproof in this

I'd maybe delegate that sort of stuff to some sort of winter skills course, Glenmore Lodge is excellent, ditto PyB.

This has all gone a bit academic / people arguing

Thanks for your input and I obviously agree with you as you are agreeing with me!

The point I am making is not an academic one, it's an incredibly important, practical point for anyone climbing on the kind of terrain in question.

There are comments on this thread which suggest some people believe there is a realistic chance of one climber stopping another in a roped slide on grade I terrain with no protection in place.

I've come in heavy on this because that is a false and potentially fatal belief. Roping up but not placing gear has lead to avoidable deaths and serious injuries in the past and will do so again. I really can't emphasize this enough and I'm really keen that this point not be lost in amongst any other noise.

Posted by: BadlyWiredDog

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Posted by: molgrips

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I have to teach my 18 year old nephew how to do all this.  He's pretty flippant and also pretty gung-ho, although I suspect a good deal of that is an act. But how much? He's not as cautious as I was at that age, for sure, but he is responsible. But being an 18 year old, is he really going to think of everything and do it properly when he's belaying me?  I mean it's not like I'm planning to do anything remotely difficult at this point in my life but still.  There is very little that is foolproof in this

I'd maybe delegate that sort of stuff to some sort of winter skills course, Glenmore Lodge is excellent, ditto PyB.

If your nephew is thinking uni at any point, all the national mountain centres offer free courses with the uni's still. Two of mine had a week at Glenmore Lodge on winter safety course for free.

If your nephew is thinking uni at any point, all the national mountain centres offer free courses with the uni's still. Two of mine had a week at Glenmore Lodge on winter safety course for free

Conville courses in the Alps too.

I'm slightly reluctant to post this given this:

people don't like having it pointed out to them when they do things wrong. I certainly don't. 

However, it's important so here goes.

From what you've said on this thread I think you need to revisit the principles behind safe use of a rope on mountaineering terrain.

If your nephew is thinking uni at any point, all the national mountain centres offer free courses with the uni's still. Two of mine had a week at Glenmore Lodge on winter safety course for free.

What! Tell me more.....

Posted by: Edukator

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I did Ula in the Verdon with someone I'd met there and had never climbed with before, he was excellent, very reassuring. On the other hand I did a climb in the Lakes with a guy who was somewhat economical with gear, very worrying, and he died not much later in the Alps.

I may be picky, but I'm very reluctant to climb with someone I don't know and trust completely. I once followed a pair up a south face in the Andes, a steep, icy, thing, who were having an ongoing argument about how safe the other's basic practices were when it came to placing and using gear. It seemed like a poor place to decide that you didn't trust your partner and have a blazing row. 

I may be picky, but I'm very reluctant to climb with someone I don't know and trust completely

A few years ago I climbed a couple of times with someone who's climbing CV seemed absolutely solid. They'd been on the first ascent of winter routes up to VII and climbed with a number of very well known climbers. I'm happy that their belaying was competent but aside from that they were pretty much clueless.  I had to shepherd them through the day on each occasion and it basically felt like a client guide relationship rather than a climbing partnership.

There were two incidents that would potentially have proved fatal for them had I not noticed and intervened. A very loose harness at the top of an ab and attaching themselves to the wrong end of an ab rope. The second of these still makes my blood run cold when I think about it especially as it was only because I was watching very carefully that I saw the problem. If it had been earlier, before I had twigged what they were like, I probably wouldn't have noticed.

The problem is that this individual genuinely believes themselves to be competent and actually has some pretty strong evidence to support this belief so some of the filters I'd usually apply don't work. The phrase I've heard used for this is unconsciously incompetent and it can be really dangerous.