The SNP’s failure on so many levels suggests to me that they are not to be trusted. Being better than the worst government in history is not such a great accolade.
Once again and as Kennyp agrees they actually have had a great deal of success - and once again post independence its unlikely to be the SNP as we know it in government - the SNP will have lost the glue that holds it together and there will be a huge realignment of scottish politics
If Indy supporters want Independence they need to provide sound evidence on what an Indy Scotland will look like and how it will succeed. Brexit was won on arguments we knew to be false at the time and currently the plan for Indy looks no different.
Apart from the post independence plan was published in great detail and all discussed during the last campaign. so nothing like you claim
and once again post independence its unlikely to be the SNP as we know it in government – the SNP will have lost the glue that holds it together and there will be a huge realignment of scottish politics
I mean, watching the Tories tear themselves apart after delivering independence and take the country down with them has been such a fun rollercoaster, I can see why you'd want to go round again.
Apart from the post independence plan was published in great detail and all discussed during the last campaign. so nothing like you claim
The plan that was completely unaffordable?
I mean, watching the Tories tear themselves apart after delivering independence and take the country down with them has been such a fun rollercoaster, I can see why you’d want to go round again.
Bravo!
The plan that was completely unaffordable?
Says who - the unionist press? did you even read it?
the unionist press
Sorry didn't realise I was only allowed to get my "facts" from the national.
If Indy supporters want Independence they need to provide sound evidence on what an Indy Scotland will look like and how it will succeed.
I think you know that providing evidence of something that is going to happen in the future is impossible, no?
However, if you want to persuade others to back unionism I think you should start thinking about what you're going to say when people start asking you to provide evidence that Scotland is going to be better off as part of the UK.
In 2014 the union was very much the status quo. Now, in post-Brexit Britain, no one knows what the future is going to look like. It will absolutely be poorer than if the UK hadn't left, not many folk will argue against that.
So where is your evidence that staying in the UK on it's Brexit meltdown journey is going to be better than an independent Scotland forging it's own relationship, both with rUK and with Europe?
“I think it’s widely accepted that their marriage is a bit “odd”,”
I’m glad I didnt bring that up. 'It's just rumours, no truth in it' was one response when queried.
I think you know that providing evidence of something that is going to happen in the future is impossible, no?
However, if you want to persuade others to back unionism I think you should start thinking about what you’re going to say when people start asking you to provide evidence that Scotland is going to be better off as part of the UK.
I don't need to do anything, we had a vote. If you want change prove it will improve the country.
In 2014 the union was very much the status quo. Now, in post-Brexit Britain, no one knows what the future is going to look like. It will absolutely be poorer than if the UK hadn’t left, not many folk will argue against that.
Yes Scotland is poorer because we left the EU, why would we make ourselves even poorer by leaving the UK? There is no guarantee of joining the EU post Indy.
So where is your evidence that staying in the UK on it’s Brexit meltdown journey is going to be better than an independent Scotland forging it’s own relationship, both with rUK and with Europe?
“Stay in the Union” they said “things could be worse”
So we stayed, and they were right; things were worse!
I reckon our one chance to make a realistic go of independence has passed us by - we’re now wedded to the Westminster economic death spiral, and I doubt the UK’s ability to haul itself out of the mire in my lifetime. Of course, if you don’t share the aspiration of living in a country with a social democratic ethos, then the current situation may be less of a concern. For me, independence is less to do with how it might benefit me economically, and more about the opportunity to help build a ‘better’ society.
Brexit was won on arguments we knew to be false at the time and currently the plan for Indy looks no different.
Did YOU vote to Leave?
The plan that was completely unaffordable?
Your Unionists are currently borrowing/overspending £300m PER DAY across the UK* and have averaged this for the past +5,000 days - is this "affordable"?
- - circa £30m for Scotland based on 10% of the population
The SNP’s failure on so many levels suggests to me that they are not to be trusted. Being better than the worst government in history is not such a great accolade.
Once again and as Kennyp agrees they actually have had a great deal of success
It might be useful to back up these claims. Where are these great successes?
Let's allow the modest reduction in absolute poverty among children from 24% to 21% since the SNP came to power, mostly through additional benefit payments for children. (NB that relative poverty among children remained at 24% throughout, so no improvement there). This is a good thing.
https://theferret.scot/claim-one-in-four-scots-children-poverty-true/
What else is there, specifically?
“I’m not sure any other party is actually better structured”
Who cares though? The question isn't whether the SNP was just as crap as others - that doesn't help Scottish residents at all. The question is whether the SNP was well and honestly run. It's obvious that it was poorly run. As for honestly...that's for the court to consider...
What else is there, specifically?
I p0ut a partial list up before
NHS - no strikes, better pay for staff, end to privitisation, 10% saving of t6otal NHS budget in admin costs due to getting rid of the fake market. Itsd noty perfect as without more mone4y what cvan be done is limited but less issues than England
Poverty - not just the single child payment but measures to alleviate the bedroom tax, bring PIP assessments back in house etc etc
Land reform act and community buyouts fusing the land fund
Infrastructure for green energy
Reopening railway lines
Bringing railways back into state control
Loads more as well
Apart from the post independence plan was published in great detail and all discussed during the last campaign.
You mean with all those 'concrete' plans like keeping the pound, or joining the EU and adopting the Euro, like keeping UK military protection but nothing else etc. When Boris Johnson et al were coming out with all sorts of bollocks about how nothing would change post-brexit everyone ridiculed them and called it 'cakeism'. What's the difference?
Yes Dazh - we know you do not understand. Please either learn a bit or stop trolling
here-
That's not actually evidence. It's a projection based on the assumption that patterns of trade pre and post independence are going to remain the same.
Here is some actual evidence that shows the limitations of your projections:
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/04/ireland-booms-brexit-whimpers-next-door
This isn't so much to say that Scotland will be successful because Ireland was or that Scotland should follow the same model, just not to expect reality to follow projections because nothing happens in a vacuum.
Ireland was supposed to contract in a similar way to how your report describes. However, the opposite happened.
So there you go. Some evidence.
Yes Dazh – we know you do not understand. Please either learn a bit or stop trolling
Careful, I got a warning for saying dazh was being willfully ignorant.
I got a warning for saying dazh was being willfully ignorant.
Really? To be clear that wasn't a result of me using the report button. Unlike many on here I can take a bit of flak. I certainly don't get offended at someone making a silly joke about the importance of my government 😉
I agree with everything else you say but other parties do not have a married couple as CEO and party leader.
That's true, but neither does the SNP anymore! and I'm not sure the others actually have anything to stop it.
The other senior members of the SNP were either happy with this dodgy arrangment or too cowed by the Sturgeon/Murrell iron grip on the party to openly challenge it.
Probably a bit of both - in the "boom times" that iron grip probably helped party unity and success, and so many would have perceived it as strong leadership and strength.
Iron grip? One random example the party treasurer who resigned because Murrell wouldn’t let him see the books.
All organisations involve politics (with a small p). Once those organisations become Political (with a large P) they must become toxic nightmares! They could all have been part of a giant conspiracy or they could mostly have been taken for a ride. I suspect, like the post office scandal, and probably lots of similar things - its probably somewhere in the middle: nobody set out to be dodgy, but as things developed mistaken belief became spin, spin became lies, lies became a cover up and then there's too much to lose by trying to stop the runnaway train.
When Boris Johnson et al were coming out with all sorts of bollocks about how nothing would change post-brexit everyone ridiculed them and called it ‘cakeism’. What’s the difference?
The difference was the 2014 Scottish Government laid out in writing their intention and essentiallly everyone involved was signing from the same agenda. They might secretly have been thinking - this bit won't happen, or we'll be lucky to negotiate that - but it was one unified position to vote for or against. When the 2016 referendum was tabled it was a nebulous idea; ask one person and they meant a soft Brexit, another a hard Brexit, some would flip-flop depending on who they were talking to. Big issues like the Irish border were highlighted but dismisssed. Nobody could actually know what they were voting for. The closest we got to a white paper was some words on a bus. Even after the vote when some dismayed at what had happened though politicians might see some sense and negotiate a "soft option" - the only explanation was Brext mean Brexit. Even after we've left NI had been in a state of flux.
Now Scot Gov would have had a tricky situation if they won the vote but then couldn't deliver on some of the major promises in the white paper. But of course the "unionist" response was also to make claims in 2014, like only way to stay in the EU, which kind of backfired too!
Who cares though? The question isn’t whether the SNP was just as crap as others – that doesn’t help Scottish residents at all. The question is whether the SNP was well and honestly run. It’s obvious that it was poorly run. As for honestly…that’s for the court to consider…
The average Scot couldn't give a monkey's about how well or otherwise the SNP as a party is run. That is an issue for their members and donors not for the ordinary public. What the public care about is how well the country is run. Many of them will be quite vocal that its badly run - few can tell you what to change other than spending more money on the things they care about and less on stuff they don't - which is politics in a nutshell!
I certainly don’t get offended at someone making a silly joke about the importance of my government
I( have asked you to explain the humour. Please explain why it was funny
Please either learn a bit or stop trolling
TJ there is no trolling here. It's an established fact that many (if not all) of the 'plans' the SNP had for independence were based on wishful thinking and/or lazy assumptions. There were no concrete agreements in place with the UK govt or the EU for a post-independence Scotland which guaranteed the continuance of trade agreements, movement of people, defence and other major issues. I also seem to remember the SNP indulging in a bit of 'they need us more than we need them' bravado with North Sea oil and gas, tax from the whiskey industry and threatening to ban the use of Faslane as a nuclear base. The parallels with brexit are quite incredible really.
The difference was the 2014 Scottish Government laid out in writing their intention and essentiallly everyone involved was signing from the same agenda.
You mean when they couldn't answer the simple question about what currency they would use? (among other things)
Knock it on the head TJ, constant bickering is ruining what could otherwise be an interesting thread. No one owes you explanations for anything they post. Just ignore @dazh if you don't want to engage.
How about asking him to knock it on the head?. His posts are truly ignorant and offensive.
Claiming a joke when an offensive post is made is not acceptable hence asking him to explain the humour. the fact he cannot shows a lot.
yes I'll leave this thread now and leave it to the ignorant and trolls to post their cant and canards. I suspect others have left for the same reason.
Once again and as Kennyp agrees they actually have had a great deal of success – and once again post independence its unlikely to be the SNP as we know it in government – the SNP will have lost the glue that holds it together and there will be a huge realignment of scottish politics
The SNP have been in power a long time. Certainly the last year or two has seen the wheels come off the bus (or rather the motorhome!) but before that they were pretty good. Not perfect, but no party, regardless of political persuasion, ever is. But in my opinion they made Scotland the best place in the UK to live.
And that, for me, is both good and bad for both pro-independence and pro-union supporters. Pro-independence will say "Look, the SNP did lots of good things, so think what they could with full independence". Pro-union will say "Ah yes, but they did all those good things while being part of the UK". A similar point could be made about anything the SNP have got wrong.
Both arguments have a certain validity. No one can be sure what the future holds, so for both sides it'c conjecture. For me economics is the key factor, most aspects of a good society flow from being a country being on a good economic footing. If independence supporters can convince me on that basis then I would probably vote for it (it would also have to be good for other parts of the UK).
However from what I've seen the arguments don't yet stack up. I don't know much about economics but worked for years in financial services so I know a lot of people who know a lot about it. And the large majority of them aren't yet convinced by the case put forward by the SNP etc. It seems to reply too much on optimistic assumptions.
I'm sure Scotland is quite capable of surviving as an independent country. It's got loads going for it and I love living here. But as long as the chances of us being worse off are more than 50% then I'm not going to vote to leave the UK. Change that and you'll get my vote.
dazh has been doing nothing but trolling.
I guess he's allowed to get away with it while the rest of us get warned and we just have to suck it up.
Dunno if that's cause he's got mates in STW towers (or at least that's what his profile suggests).
At which point he moved to Todmorden, and randomly bumped into a bunch of magazine types who have the good fortune to do this sort of thing for a living.
But sure, keep throwing your weight around with impunity if that's how you get your jollies.
but before that they were pretty good.
I think the view from south of the border was generally that Sturgeon looked like a pretty impressive politician, regardless on your views on Independence. I know the old 'truth' - all political careers end in failure, but her's has been a pretty precipitous fall from grace, with the money questions, the motor home, the police tape around their house - its all painted a pretty damning portrait and it reflects on the whole party. Like the Tories, they've been in power too long and seem to have run out of road.
I guess he’s allowed to get away with it while the rest of us get warned and we just have to suck it up.
This is a thread about scottish politics, and I'm discussing scottish politics. Granted I might disagree with the consensus (I usually do) but that is nowhere near to trolling. And for the record I don't think anything you've said deserves a warning, that's got nothing to do with me, and I'm pretty sure it's got nothing to do with anyone working at STW. I believe the mods are volunteers separate to the STW staff and I can assure you I don't know them (or knowingly know them at any rate).
Thread locked while we review it and bold claims of friend of Mods.
Oh great! Kate Forbes might stand. It's going to be interesting as even she doesn't think the SNP government is any good
Ok here we go.
DazH has a different opinion wether because he doesn’t understand or just sees things different it’s not trolling.
TJ keep it to a discussion not trying to call people out because their opinion is different to yours.
Brucewee your waning was because of much more than saying his was ignorant and you know.
DazH is not friendly with mods by any means.
Anymore childish bickering and all 3 of you will have a break.
I think the view from south of the border was generally that Sturgeon looked like a pretty impressive politician
Indeed. Many of us south of the border would have willingly had Sturgeon as PM over Johnson et al. Even so, it's not the first time a politician or party who set out with good intentions have been distracted and corrupted by the power at their disposal. It's a salutory lesson I suppose and yet another window into the filthy world of politics. It's little wonder that real people with real things to contribute don't want to get involved with it all.
Oh great! Kate Forbes might stand. It’s going to be interesting as even she doesn’t think the SNP government is any good
Let's be honest, she's not wrong. Since the last leadership election, she's been pretty much spot on about the dangers of continuity. The SNP's popularity has cratered. She's also not wrong about education, the economy, the Scottish NHS, short sighted urban policies affecting rural Scotland and the Bute House agreement. She's by far the most grown up in the room and the only politician talking about the need to sort out priority issues with public services and the economy, rather than driving distracting and polarising wedge issues. Deeply unpopular with 52% of the 50k SNP members, but extremely popular with the other 48% and with many SNP voters outside of Edinburgh and Glasgow.
I share very different views with her on certain social matters, but last time I checked Scotland was (just) a free country where all faiths had a right to their individual beliefs as long as they weren't overriding the democratically expressed votes of the electorate.
Although I'm Englishman in Scotland and consequently a probably a unionist (I always believe it's better to solve issues as one rather than by crating further divisions), I'd much rather her take the SNP to the 2026 election and make Scotland a better and more prosperous place to live over any petty party squabbles and people playing politics while Rome burns. Likewise, I'd rather live in a prosperous independent Scotland than the sh*tshow that is becoming the current one.
Anyway, I don't see Swinney interested in a leadership contest. I think I read somewhere he was only interested if he was unopposed which makes sense. I don't think he's the one to set the course for the future of the party, just to get them through to the Holyrood election.
If Forbes decides she's running part of me hopes no one I want to see leading the party runs. It's going to be a shit show no matter who is in charge so if anyone other than Swinney has to catch that I hope it's Forbes.
Bruce - best to just abandon the thread. shame but its for the best
No more mountain biking on Sundays if Kate Forbes becomes 1st minister
Poverty – not just the single child payment but measures to alleviate the bedroom tax, bring PIP assessments back in house etc etc
Well, okay, let's take poverty as an example. When the SNP came to power in 2007, the rate of relative poverty for people in Scotland was 17% before housing costs and 19% after housing costs. Today, the rate of relative poverty for people in Scotland is 19% before housing costs and 21% after housing costs. It's gone up! Absolute poverty rates have gone down by 1% in the same period. Is that the great success we are talking about?
https://data.gov.scot/poverty/index.html
It's not enough to reel off the names of things or aspirations, you have to actually show objectively they were successful with facts and data.
Uppity Scots getting you down?
They ruined Scotland!
ha...ha, that's rich coming from one of the most contrarian argumentative folk on this forum
its quite easy to ignore posts, its not as if we are all stood in the pub together
Its just impossible to have a decent discussion
Why because you try and shut down anyone who disagrees with you and Bruce. And it is disagreement, no one has a monopoly on facts or understanding of the full situation. I'm usually on the opposite side of the argument to Dazh and I'm struggling to see how what he's posted can be considered trolling and the personal attacks on him extremely unpleasent. In fact I find the denial of the similarities between Brexit and Scottish Independance quite worrying. No they are not the same but there are a lot of parrellels and to deny that is just disingenuous.
I was having decent discussions with others - unionist even that I disagree with but folk like PCA or Kennyp who understand the issues. Dazh was being deliberately offensive and would not let up. He admitted that.
Hence I'm out.
Bruce – best to just abandon the thread. shame but its for the best
I will no longer be contributing to this thread.
Hence I’m out
Hmmm
I find the likening of the campaign for independence to brexit quite worrying. I know there are arseholes everywhere but the independence campaign that I witnessed and took part in what was outward looking, internationalist and not anti racist. We believed that we could build a better country and join the rest of the world as equals às ourselves.
That's just about the opposite of the Brexit campaign. There were brexit supporters in Scotland too most of the ones I met were left wing and thought the EU was a global capitalist pub I had a long chat with a brexiteer from Dover who took a similar view and was very pissed off to be lumped in with Farage,Johnson etc. I feel much the same way when I read posts doing the same thing on here
[Humza] probably had little other option really unless he fancied following the Tory playbook of hang on at all costs for as long as possible.
To be fair, it's not a terrible idea. If anyone can find a way to squander this opportunity, it's Labour.
When the SNP came to power in 2007, the rate of relative poverty for people in Scotland was 17% before housing costs and 19% after housing costs. Today, the rate of relative poverty for people in Scotland is 19% before housing costs and 21% after housing costs. It’s gone up!
Is there a yearly breakdown of that ? I mean 2007 to 2024 is quite a big jump and a long time. And its not all been plain sailing for Scotland or the UK in general. We've have Brexit, which will have played a part, energy costs which will have played a big part.
At least with a breakdown we can see if there has been a trend, and in which years have had the greatest impact.
In fact the UK as a whole has a high degree of poverty.
Hence I’m out
Does this constitute a legally binding contract ?
Is there a yearly breakdown of that ?
Yeah, it's in the source linked in the post to which you're replying. Figures 1 and 2. Let me know if you find any "huge successes" from the SNP since they came to power. TJ was just about to but he got distracted by the trolls 😢
huge successes” from the SNP
A number things became free under the SNP. Tuition. NHS prescriptions, Free hospital parking And probably many other things. All of which has no doubt helped free up families income.
.
Of course the SNP isnt perfect, but I dont think any party in Scotland or the rest of the UK, or the world for that matter can lay that claim.
All in all its been a rather shitty couple of decades for everyone. But for some to try to lay the entire blame for that at the feet of the SNP is frankly ridiculous. If theres been a change in the figures or percentages, I would think that the events like covid, the Ukraine/Russo war and subsequent energy crisis along with brexit, are largely to blame. I dont think anyone can deny those have had a serious impact on increasing poverty.
But I suppose given that the people of Scotland have voted them in time and time again, they at least are happy to that degree. And maybe they share the notion of nobody's perfect, but at least it isn't the utter shite show thats going on down south.
If anything good is to be said, I would say there is considerably less political corruption here in Scotland.
But I suppose given that the people of Scotland have voted them in time and time again, they at least are happy to that degree
Well, maybe sort of. I've voted for them, not on the basis I'm happy with their performance in power. But more on a lack of realistic alternatives situation. I could not say how common that line of thinking is.
Although I was pretty annoyed at their last local candidate swapping parties as I'd voted for the party, not the candidate.
“Well, maybe sort of. I’ve voted for them, not on the basis I’m happy with their performance in power. But more on a lack of realistic alternatives situation. I could not say how common that line of thinking is.”
Exactly. None of the Parties appeal to me. I would rather have a bland Government plodding along, doing little changes along the way, and changing the obviously really poor decisions that past governments have made. The SNP have done that, though I dont agree with their overall aim of Independence, and I certainly disagree with the way they have acted with Finances in the last few years, Politicians should be better than the general public, and seen to be better, we havent got that now, if anything, as a proportion,Politicians (of all sides) are incredibly devious, sleazy,money grabbing and non trustworthy compared to the general public. It needs total change, but that isnt going to happen, they all have their snouts in the trough.
Sorry, dazh, I'm not pissed off at you. I'm pissed off at the state of reporting of Scotland in the rest of the UK.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1785185365675987247
Just to try to be constructive for a minute, you've kept saying that the deal ended because of the fringe issue of GRR which I've found irritating.
Again, not having a go but this is completely wrong but I totally understand how people can come to this conclusion if they only got their news from UK sources.
GRR probably unified the Greens and the SNP. In fact, it unified the entire Scottish Parliament. All parties (except the Tories) including Labour supported it (Labour only changed their stance when Starmer stepped in). Even the Tories supported it when Ruth Davidson was in charge. It did split the SNP itself though so it would be wrong to say it had universal support.
GRR was stopped entirely by the UK government stepping in and using Section 35 for the first time. It was one of the few shrewd political maneuvers this Tory government has actually managed as GRR doesn't enjoy the same popular support as it did political support. It succeeded in splitting the loyalties of several parties, not just the SNP.
But in terms of the Greens and the SNP it wasn't really a wedge issue. There was little to be done on it once the legal challenges were completed as it was an external factor that stopped it. I'm sure the Greens weren't happy about the right wing of the SNP crowing about it but it wasn't causing issues with the leadership and the Greens, just between the Greens and the Tartan Tories.
What actually caused issues was Yousaf's surprise populist announcement of a council tax freeze last year. Puberty blockers and abandoning environmental targets built on that same issue but it was the council tax freeze that really hurt the relationship and set the wheels in motion. It was a surprise announcement which went against the BHA because there were supposed to be no surprises and it also disproportionally affected the Greens because they are much stronger on the councils than they are in the Parliament.
In addition to all that, there is a civil war going on in the Greens between Harvie, Slater, and Greer and a group of rebels who really really don't like them. But the intricacies of the inner politics of the Scottish Greens is too parochial, even for me.
I get why people who get most of their news from UK/English sources would think it was simple situation that came out of nowhere, but it's really not.
I will try to be more accommodating of your views but it would also be nice if you acknowledged that there is a lot of information and analysis that you miss out of because of the lack of decent coverage of Scotland in England.
Well, okay, let’s take poverty as an example. When the SNP came to power in 2007, the rate of relative poverty for people in Scotland was 17% before housing costs and 19% after housing costs. Today, the rate of relative poverty for people in Scotland is 19% before housing costs and 21% after housing costs. It’s gone up! Absolute poverty rates have gone down by 1% in the same period. Is that the great success we are talking about?
And where are your figures for the UK as a whole, or at least England as that's how YOU want us to be governed?
Example:
Child poverty rates in Scotland (24%) remain much lower than those in England (31%) and Wales (28%) and are similar (if slightly higher) than in Northern Ireland (22%). This is likely to be due, at least in part, to the Scottish Child Payment. This highlights the effect benefits can have in reducing poverty.
While Scotland doesn't look any better than the likes of England, when you consider our population is barely a 10th then if we look deeper and compare us to the North, then we're considerably better.
Between 2019/20 and 2021/22, the average poverty rates in England (22%), Wales (22%) and Scotland (21%) had converged to around the same level, although poverty rates were much lower in Northern Ireland (16%).
Between 2019/20 and 2021/22, the West Midlands had the highest rate of poverty at 27%, followed by the North East and London (both 25%), Yorkshire and The Humber, the East Midlands and the North West (all 23%).
As I said previously, you want us governed just like England, and that would be like a region of England - so what you're demanding is that poverty rises right across Scotland. Stop hiding this, say it out loud!
A number things became free under the SNP. Tuition. NHS prescriptions, Free hospital parking And probably many other things. All of which has no doubt helped free up families income....But for some to try to lay the entire blame for that at the feet of the SNP is frankly ridiculous.
Well, yes, some things became free at the point of use, but they were paid for out of taxes (which reduces families' income) and/or at the expense of other things. "Free" parking at hospitals is a terrible use of land and other resources, for example: the money spent on providing parking outside the hospital building should have been spent on better healthcare provision inside the building.
But in any case, the claim was that the SNP had achieved great successes around things like poverty. When the facts are actually examined, that record fades a bit or is just a claim that's not backed up by data. In some cases the opposite turns out to be true - like, poverty has got worse in Scotland.
That's important because there's a bit of a meme circulating that "well, there's a bit of corruption and taxes are higher and the SNP are dysfunctional, but it's okay on balance because they're delivering these great public services in Scotland". And they're just not!
Who is trying to lay the blame for the whole last 20 years at the feet of the SNP?
And where are your figures for the UK as a whole, or at least England as that’s how YOU want us to be governed?...As I said previously, you want us governed just like England, and that would be like a region of England – so what you’re demanding is that poverty rises right across Scotland. Stop hiding this, say it out loud!
As you have noted from the data I posted above, the difference in poverty between England and Scotland is 1% - immaterial. I mentioned the modest reduction in one measure of child poverty rate earlier in the thread as a small success for the SNP. Government policy in England has been a miserable failure. Anyone that claims there have been "huge successes" in poverty reduction in England is delusional. I can think of no UK government social policy that should be replicated anywhere, at any time. It has been an unmitigated shitshow on domestic policy outside the devolved governments. The SNP being better than the worst UK government of the last century is not a big claim. Scottish residents are entitled to good governance - not just "yeah well we are better than England". It's not a competition with England: it's a competition to improve the lives of Scottish residents. You can be critical of the SNP's track record in power and still be in favour of devolution and independence. Inventing weird sarcastic claims about what other people believe doesn't move conversation forward - critique ideas not people. Hope this helps.
Which is why I noted the regions, but you ignored that.
I can think of no UK government social policy that should be replicated anywhere, at any time
Good, but accept that the outcome of your actions is that Scotland will be treated like just another UK region, this will be reality.
Unintended consequences, and we did point them out to you.
Project Fear no doubt you'll shout, Project Reality we'll reply in a few years - except you'll not be here, just like all the Leavers who've disappeared.
Same with drug death discussion. The SNP's ideas are probably the basis for the way forward, but it's been badly implemented, under resourced, and doesn't really tackle well the change in the habits of drug users who aren't (in the main) dying becasue of addiction to an opioid, but of casual and unsafe multi-drug use that includes opioids. It's worthy of criticism becasue it's failed on its own terms, but that doesn't mean that people that point that out support the drug policy of the rest of the UK, as by any measure it's also a shit-show.
we should be able to have a discussion about Scotland that doesn't either resort to folks complaining that non scots residents can't comment becasue they 'don't understand' or simply saying "yeah well, it's not any better in England" or "But Tories".
Same with drug death discussion. The SNP’s ideas are probably the basis for the way forward, but it’s been badly implemented, under resourced,
Exactly the same with their inclusion policy in education. An absolute nightmare for teachers.
Wait until you see the damage that their Redress Scheme is doing to people who worked in the care sector in the 80's & 90's, absolute scandal.
Just to try to be constructive for a minute, you’ve kept saying that the deal ended because of the fringe issue of GRR which I’ve found irritating.
Then you've misunderstood my point completely. I started this by saying that this was a good example of how coalition politics doesn't work. Whether it was council tax or the GRR which caused the collapse of the govt is largely irrelevant (I would still contest that the GRR was a major factor though, and even if not then council tax isn't exactly an issue whicy should collapse a govt), the bigger issue is that the electoral system has by design produced an inherently unstable government which can be held to ransom by MSPs in both the SNP and Greens who are pursuing personal agendas and factional fueds.
There's a large groundswell of opinion that PR would solve a lot of our problems in the UK. I reckon Scotland and its incompetent govt and politicians has nicely demonstrated why that would be a very bad idea.
PS. There's really no need to apologise or be pissed off. This is an internet forum, a bit of light destraction from the daily grind. Why some people take offence at what is posted on here by me or anyone else is a genuine mystery to me. 🤷♂️
Good, but accept that the outcome of your actions is that Scotland will be treated like just another UK region, this will be reality.
So what if it is? By population Scotland is only 8th when compared to other UK regions - https://www.statista.com/statistics/294729/uk-population-by-region - and 6th in the UK by GDP - https://www.statista.com/statistics/1004135/uk-gdp-by-region - so hardly a surprise that people in other parts of the UK might raise an eyebrow at how much independence supporters bang on about how important Scotland is.
While these discussions of poverty, economics, GRR etc are very interesting, the most profound difference between Scotland and rUK is (in my opinion) the Land Reform (Scotland) Act of 2003. Not only does it make a significant difference to my life (and I'd argue that access to wild places is a lot more important to the whole population than many people realise) it also highlights a fundamental difference in attitude North and South of the border i.e. that what you own is the right to exploit a piece of land for commercial purposes not the right to exclude others from it.
However, despite being fairly clued up on politics up here I'm not actually sure which party (or parties) are responsible for this remarkable piece of legislation, which basically enshrines rule-1 into Scottish law.
we should be able to have a discussion about Scotland that doesn’t either resort to folks complaining that non scots residents can’t comment becasue they ‘don’t understand’ or simply saying “yeah well, it’s not any better in England” or “But Tories”.
The trouble is we've got three different conversations going on at once.
One is about the general concept of independence. It's part of a bigger conversation about the levels of government needed in an interconnected world.
Then you've got a conversations about the Scottish Parliament and just how effective it's possible for it to be within the UK. Also, just how badly is the representation skewed because of the independence question?
Then you've got the conversation about the inner workings and effectiveness of the relevant political parties and the Scottish government.
It's not that non-residents shouldn't be allowed to contribute (I'm not a resident myself although I have as much skin in the game as anyone, if not more*). It's just that if you don't follow the Scottish side of things you aren't necessarily going to have the best understanding of the second and third points.
*Not going to go into my personal details but my future is entirely dependent on the future direction of Scotland and the decisions I'm going to be forced to make are going to have life changing implications for my entire family. **** Brexit.
I’m not actually sure which party (or parties) are responsible for this remarkable piece of legislation,
Everyone except the Tories, but actually helped on by the Foot and Mouth outbreak that occurred between the original green paper and the passed bill.
There’s a large groundswell of opinion that PR would solve a lot of our problems in the UK. I reckon Scotland and its incompetent govt and politicians has nicely demonstrated why that would be a very bad idea.
Except because Scotland isn't a country that has control of all it's areas it means that the likes of the Labour, LibDem & Tory MSP's are only there to 'oppose' the SNP/Green administration as their #1 priority is to stop independence. Therefore they see any improvement to Scotland as something that could/may increase the support for independence.
The majority of the world works on PR, just a few democratic countries use FPTP - why do you want Govts elected on a minority of the vote to have to pay no attention whatsoever to the majority that voted for other policies?
PS. There’s really no need to apologise or be pissed off. This is an internet forum, a bit of light destraction from the daily grind. Why some people take offence at what is posted on here by me or anyone else is a genuine mystery to me.
Like I said, I'm not pissed off at or because of you or this forum. I'm pissed off at the stuff I read in the Guardian and UK press in general. It's really not fit for purpose in terms of informing people what is actually going on in Scotland.
But mostly I'm just pissed off at the corner that Brexit is squeezing me and my family into.
I'm also pissed off at the Tory culture war bullshit that is providing a wedge issue within the same family. Also, **** Alex Salmond.
Sure, my problems are the same facing many in the UK and across Europe and Scotland going independent isn't going to solve any of my personal issues, but it certainly can't make it any worse than the current Tory or future Labour governments.
There’s a large groundswell of opinion that PR would solve a lot of our problems in the UK. I reckon Scotland and its incompetent govt and politicians has nicely demonstrated why that would be a very bad idea.
The SNP have been in power since 2007. For a party that is such a wide church, everything from committed Socialists to full blown free-market neo-liberals, it simply should not have lasted a year.
It's only now after 17 years that all those cracks are finally starting to cause it to crumble. And even then I think it's still too early to say the show is over. Compromises are going to be made and I suspect things will continue chugging along.
You take one conclusion but I take the opposite. PR not only provides more stability but more consensus, compromises, and better decisions in general.
I’m pissed off at the stuff I read in the Guardian and UK press in general. It’s really not fit for purpose in terms of informing people what is actually going on in Scotland.
This reads like you only want to read news that fits your narrative, and wish to avoid being challenged on your view.
This reads like you only want to read news that fits your narrative, and wish to avoid being challenged on your view.
For me, it's not the alternative viewpoint that is the issue it's either (a) the imbalance and/or (b) the lack of knowledge. TBF the latter is an issue with any "news" type media. Once you know a bit about the subject yourself, the more obvious the errors and misrepresentation are. It's likely we've all experienced that at some point. It's partly a byproduct of something becoming newsworthy and then being researched hurriedly.
Lack of balance might be caused by the same sort of approach but, though I don't want to go down the conspiracy rabbit hole, something like Question Time would be a good example of where it's not even attempted. I'm not just meaning as regards Scotland either.
I’m pissed off at the stuff I read in the Guardian and UK press in general. It’s really not fit for purpose in terms of informing people what is actually going on in Scotland.
Hardly a surprise that the UK press will present a UK-centric view, and since when has it ever been fit for purpose for properly informing people about something? I'm sure you could make the exact opposite argument about the Scotissh press' presentation of Westminster politics. If it pisses you off then do yourself a favour, stop reading/watching the news and do something more constructive or useful.
I’m sure you could make the exact opposite argument about the Scotissh press’ presentation of Westminster politics.
Not really.
Scottish politics is always influenced by UK politics. UK politics is seldom influenced by Scottish politics. When it is it's only to be used as a scare tactic. Be careful or the Scottish Marxist government will take all your money or force all your children to be gay every second Tuesday.
You get a range of takes on it from the unionist Scotsman, the indy National, and the Herald trying to keep everyone happy to maximize circulation but only managing to piss everyone off. But with none of them is it the case that you only hear anything about the goings on at Westminster once every six months or so.
Admittedly there's not been much on Westminster politics this week but nothing interesting has been happening, has it? Just the usual announcements of plans to machine gun small boats in the Channel with Spitfires and to introduce a Squid Games style selection criteria for benefits claimants?
UK politics is seldom influenced by Scottish politics.
Or Welsh or Irish politics either beyond the occasional headline. Not a massive surprise, the majority of folks on these islands live in the bottom half of the landmass.
Or Welsh or Irish politics
Indeed, and I don't know much about Welsh or Irish politics which is why I tend to just listen to these discussions and if I do contribute it's with questions rather than telling everyone what my opinion is.
A couple of mentions of "wedge issues". The problem with these issues is that while some people might regard them as peripheral and a waste of time, they can impact a small group of people quite dramatically. The "trans issue" is a wedge issue that should be stuck on the back burner if you're Kate Forbes and it's your life if you're the parent of a trans kid.
There’s a large groundswell of opinion that PR would solve a lot of our problems in the UK. I reckon Scotland and its incompetent govt and politicians has nicely demonstrated why that would be a very bad idea.
No, there isn't. Support for PR is pretty much where it always is, and the UK already has PR in NI and Wales and Scotland and London, and we had it in Euro elections before Brexit. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-we-change-our-current-british-voting-system?period=5yrs
But in any case, the Green-SNP split is just one event. It doesn't say anything about PR or coalition politics generally. There's been 15 years of strong and stable (cough) SNP government under PR. What's been happening during that in nearby FPTP systems? 😆
Or Welsh or Irish politics
I look forward to our Welsh and Irish member friends starting rolling Welsh and Irish (both sides of the border) politics threads. (Welsh! Politics!) I might learn something...
