‘the mosque’ is in relation to a story that he avoided the gay marriage vote due to, according to Alex Neil, ‘pressure from the mosque.’
You and TJ are not just making passing reference to Neil's conspiracy theory about Yousaf being under the sway of "the mosque". You're adopting it and saying "the mosque" controlled Yousaf's political survival:
He could have avoided placating the mosque, lost their support in the next election, and then we wouldn’t have to bother talking about him.
You, TJ and Neil should have some rational basis for your believe that Yousaf is under control of "the mosque" if you're going to spout it - but now you're saying you don't even know what you mean when you said it. This all sounds just like the recycled conspiracy theories about Catholics and Jews being untrustworthy politicians because they're under the shadowy control of their faiths.
Edit: this is a genuine lol in context!
we don’t have to keep appeasing English racists
Scotland is 95.5% white, non-EU immigrants are half as likely to move there as the rest of the UK, and according to some on here the first ethnic minority leader of Scotland was secretly dependent on "the mosque" for his political survival...and the problem is "English racists"! 😆
god botherer isn’t a derogatory term for religious people.
well as a religious person I find it mildly derogatory and offensive. Something you may wish to consider in future (although tbf I don’t think it was you who used the term)
just to be clear however, I also don’t think religious persuasion should be allowed to influence political decision making
You would be forgiven if you had missed it.
I missed it because it hasn't happened. No one has been bankrupted. Countries like the UK can't go bankrupt.
You, TJ and Neil should have some rational basis for your believe that Yousaf is under control of “the mosque” if you’re going to spout it – but now you’re saying you don’t even know what you mean when you said it. This all sounds just like the recycled conspiracy theories about Catholics and Jews being untrustworthy politicians because they’re under the shadowy control of their faiths.
It's true, we simply have no idea what Neil meant by 'the mosque'.
Again, I'm not sure if you are familiar with Scottish politics but Yousaf was forced to move his constituency office because it kept getting vandalised and covered in racist graffiti.
In terms of 'the mosque':
It could be simply that he was following what was expected of him by his religion.
It could be that he relied on the religious community in terms of electoral support (both votes and volunteering).
It could be he needed the moral support just to keep going in the face of the daily racial abuse he was receiving.
Or it could be none of these and Neil was talking bollocks.
Now, you seem to want to suggest I've said something Islamaphobic. It could well be I did in which case I apologise. However, I was quoting a newspaper article and giving my interpretation which may well be wrong. I've said as much.
So, do you genuinely believe I said something Islamaphobic in which case I'm happy to admit it was and apologise?
Or are you just trying to score cheap internet argument points?
But as a Brexiteer I know you feel this won’t make any difference
If I were a brexiteer I'd be 100% behind scottish independence because the exact same arguments and logic apply to both.
well as a religious person I find it mildly derogatory and offensive. Something you may wish to consider in future (although tbf I don’t think it was you who used the term)
If there is a non-derogatory term for the kind of person who feels the need to knock on my door while I'm trying to make dinner for the kids (while simultaneously keeping their argument over the TV remote from escalating to full-blown violence) in order to ask me if I've heard of our saviour Jesus Christ then I'm all ears.
Honestly, god botherer seems like the least derogatory thing I can think of to call them.
But again, it's not a term for all religious people, at least in my opinion.
As I said earlier, only if you’re not very bright.
Putting up barriers to your nearest and largest trading partner is what Brexit has done and is exactly what will happen in the event of Scottish independence. Have the trade barriers we have put in place been good or bad for the UK?
I suspect it’s willful ignorance rather than lacking the mental capacity.
Funny isn't it how the same people leading the arguments for staying in the EU were the same people leading the arguments against independence. It's to the huge credit of the Scottish electorate that they weren't taken in like their English brethren were.
At least Nicola Sturgeon's mum got a campervan out of it though. Which is nice
Honestly, god botherer seems like the least derogatory thing I can think of to call them.
In the circumstances you describe (for which I've every sympathy) I'd have thought Bruce botherer would be a better term than god botherer.
At least Nicola Sturgeon’s mum got a campervan out of it though. Which is nice
If thats all she got then the snp are absolute ****ing amateurs at the game compared to what the Tory lackeys have received, I guess everyone has forgiven Robert Jenrick
———— Mod Notice ————
Please play nice in the thread we are receiving numerous reports about this thread. If you can’t discuss it in a reasonable manner will give you enforced breaks. If it still continues then the thread will be closed.
Thanks.
Sad news Humza has gone. His wisdom, integrity, and inclusive style of govt will be sadly missed.
The SNP govewrnment has of course greatly improved things in ~Scotland - from land ownership to reducing poverty. could the4y have done better? Of cou8rse but that should not blind you to what they have done well.
No NHS strikes in Scotland. No teachers strikes. A fair amount of land to community / state hands. An end to parking charges in NHS properties wehere possible. an end to the creeping privitisation of the NHS. an NHS that performs better than england. Less poverty via the scoittish child payment and changes to taxation. Nurse are higher paid here. Some movement towards green energy and creating infrastructure to accommodate this. Clamp down on grouse moors, bringing benefit assessments back in house so as to make the system fairer etc etc etc
One thing in this polarised debate is that unionists will never give the SNP led government any credit even tho by any objective measures its done a lot given the paucity of powers ( no real finance powers)
I am no ideological indepe4ndence supporter but in my heart I belie4ve and independent Scotland would be a better place to live than a Scotland remaining held back by rUK
Dsazh - please stop showing your complete lack of undewrstanding of the independence debate. We have unionists on here that do understand and we can debate with them reasonably it but your constant equating of the SNP with the hard right brexiteers is both ignorant and offensive
You, TJ and Neil should have some rational basis for your believe that Yousaf is under control of “the mosque”
I did not say control. I said influence and its clear he is as I have demonstrated to you. His actions over the assisted dying bill make this clear
Lolz at IRC
It’s to the huge credit of the Scottish electorate that they weren’t taken in like their English brethren were.
And here we are.
Worth remembering that independence had a prospectus to reject. You knew what you were voting against. With the EU referendum, the leave case was unclear, and very different to what they did to us. I did not know what I was voting against, just a vague hunch that people like Johnson should not be trusted.
And indy was a real referendum.
Please play nice in the thread we are receiving numerous reports about this thread. If you can’t discuss it in a reasonable manner will give you enforced breaks. If it still continues then the thread will be closed.
It's a bit difficult when there are so many people who have clearly paid no attention to Scottish news in months (or years) who have decided today is the day to come to this thread and spout their completely un-informed opinion as fact.
There's plenty to talk about in terms of future SNP leadership (amongst many other things) but it's difficult to discuss anything when it's impossible to tell what is trolling and what is just pure ignorance.
Yeah that ^ wot brucewee posted, my mum put it well earlier but I’d better not post as I’d get banned for what she said regarding English politics and those that vote Tory
Bit like worrying about the internal politics of a glorified county council.
Trolling effort : 4/10
Trolling effort : 4/10
A light hearted joke. Should know better though that no humour is allowed on these threads.
Dazh. You are being offensive
"it’s probably because scottish politics is somewhat parochial and irrelevant to the vast majority of the rest of us
Whereas we get large chunks of English politics day in day out Crossrail ,HS2, Northern Powerhouse blah blah blah.
As I said earlier on this thread many actual Indy supporters have switched off and I’m waiting to see if they’ll bother to turn out to vote any time soon.
I live in the Borders, imagine not voting and our Tory MP gets a stay of execution?
In a macabre kind way I'm almost hoping that the Tories get to put their policies fully into Scotland. Until folk are actually 'burnt' they don't really understand the impact of the policies they're supporting.
Chap I work with was blathering on about "small govt" last week. He got all worked up when I suggested that an approach to "small govt" could mean stopping state provided education and folk paying for their own kids (he's got 3). I added that we'd sent ours to private schools, so maybe he just wasn't working "hard" enough 🙂
Lord Sugar fires Humza
(Although I think its a truism that the vast majority in the UK (and hence reading this forum) don’t give two hoots about whats going on with the SNP and Scottish politics.)
Good, in that case you won’t mind if we have another referendum………oh wait……….suddenly you give a ****.
😉
Although I think its a truism that the vast majority in the UK (and hence reading this forum) don’t give two hoots about whats going on with the SNP and Scottish politics.
They probably wouldn't open the thread to tell people that though, would they?
Dazh. You are being offensive
Really? It was clearly a joke. I certainly don't find it offensive.
Offensive to who?
Oh give over TJ. It’s a joke, lighten up man.
Ok - can you explain the humour? Whats funny about it?
For balance, look at the parallels between Yousaf/SNP and Klopp/LFC and the way social media has reacted. This thread is a microcosm of that. The only difference is the posters on here kinda "know" each other, so are maybe pulling their punches a bit. It's in human's nature to revel in a good downfall. It's tribalism. Outsiders don't care about the detail, just the headline. Funny, if not many care about Scottish politics, this thread is currently TOTP on here.
Can you explain the offense? What's offensive about it?
You could always report him using the new hate crime bill....
Juergen Klopp is going to be the next first minister of Scotland? Does anyone know how Brendan Rodger’s feels about this?
Its not alternative points of view thats the issue. PCA and i disagree on pretty much everything but he understands the issues and is not deliberately offensive.
Being told that supporting independence is the same as being a brexiteer ie right wing and racist is either ignorant or offensive. Calling it humour does not remove the offense
For balance, look at the parallels between Yousaf/SNP and Klopp/LFC and the way social media has reacted.
I don't know what the parallels are because I have no interest in football and I don't go onto the "Liverpool FC thread" to point out how boring and irrelevant and parochial the discussion is to me...
If you’ve no interest in football, you’re not being lined up as the next manager of Man Yoo are you?
Asking for a friend
If I were a brexiteer I’d be 100% behind scottish independence because the exact same arguments and logic apply to both.
An odd argument given that potentially the swing factor in 2014 was the certainty of staying in the EU by rejecting Indy and some of the post 2016 surge came from people who wanted to rejoin the EU. As I said earlier, anyone dismissing independence without bothering to understand the reasons for its popularity or calling those who believe in it stupid etc is entrenched in division and hate. There are other ways many of those issues could be tackled - they require the rest of the Union to sit up and say “let’s reprganise to make the whole of the UK a better place for the vast majority”. Scotland is in no place, morally or numerically to insist it does so.
a lot of people getting upset about criticism of religious politicians; I’d go so far as to say I could vote for a politician with significantly different conclusions on politics from me before I could unwaveringly back one who’s policies were aligned but who’s judgement of everything they see in the world meant they unquestionably believe in god, and think their particular religion just happened to be the right one. I’ll fight for your right to worship a god of your choosing, but that doesn’t mean I think your judgement is good for choosing to worship that, or any, god.
Well said poly
With the religious its particularly so when they state they would discriminate against folk in the provision of state services because if their sexuality.
"Funny isn’t it how the same people leading the arguments for staying in the EU were the same people leading the arguments against independence. "
Absolute nonsense Nicola Sturgeon lead the Scottish campaign to stay in the EU, and with a great deal more skill than Cameron led his campaign
Looks like the SNP are going to go for Swinney in a coronation. Bland but competent.
Seems others are still keeping their powder dry. Hard to be sure tho from only reading the english unionist press 🙂
Gilruth has thrown her support behind Swinney which I think is the right move for her. Being the next leader is not a job I'd particularly want right now. It's going to be a firefighting job until after the Holyrood elections.
I started the day wanting it to be MacAllan or Gilruth but now I think Swinney is the best choice for the next couple of years.
Question, why did Yousaf ditch the Greens?
I'm down in Kent so not been fully following it.
I feel a bit shitty for the guy, a bit politically naive but seems decent enough?
The racist abuse being aimed at him (and Khan) on X is appalling, being sneaky cheered on by various GBN presenters of course.
This is only my interpretation,
The greens were due to give their membership a vote on the BHA He was worried that if he waited for the result and they had voted to end the BHA he would look weak. Therefore he ditched them before they ditched the BHA. I think he was poorly or dishonestly advised
Question, why did Yousaf ditch the Greens?
Im not clear either but the greens have been pushing the SNP hard on gender / social issues and green issues and there is a big backlash from the right of the SNP about this so I suspect he did it to fend off attacks from within about the direction of the government. Ie things like support for grangemouth oil refinery, rowing back on the grouse moor reform and on other social issues. There has been a feeling ( very wrong in my vierw) that the tail has been wagging the dog.
Its all been a bnit of a clustermuck quite honestly with the greens pushing stuff that is not their core policy and alienating some of their members and a very big fightback from the SNP right. Its not that long ago the SNP were a rightwing party and they still have some of the tartan tories in their ranks
Incredibly politically naive from Yousaf but I never thought much of him.
Good point gordimhor BHA is Bute house agreement - the agreement that put the greens and SNP into coalition ( for those who do not follow scots politics)
Question, why did Yousaf ditch the Greens?
I think he somehow got it in his head that the Greens quitting would be a blow he wouldn't recover from. So he dumped them before they dumped him, thinking it would make him appear strong.
It completely misread the situation, imo. If the rumours are to be believed the Greens were (and probably still are) about to eat themselves alive with the membership severely pissed off with the leadership, and not just because of the BHA. It's not really that unusual for a junior partner to leave a coalition before the end, anyway. A couple of years of opposition lets them differentiate themselves from the government.
He was in a precarious situation from the moment he decided to run. No one could have predicted the shit shower that was about to hit the SNP when Sturgeon announced she was quitting.
Positioning yourself as the continuity candidate and then a week later the police are digging up your old boss' garden is not a good look.
The SNP and by extension Humza are in a difficult position, it does feel like he took a gamble to see if he could grab control of a bad situation realising the alternative was a long drawn out unravelling. He probably had little other option really unless he fancied following the Tory playbook of hang on at all costs for as long as possible.
It does feel a bit like the Greens decided to torpedo the SNP but then given the SNP ditching the climate change goals It was probably inevitable. Be really interesting to see what happens next, is the vote of no confidence in the government now off as well as the one for Humza?
I was about to ask about the no vote on the SNP government...I'm guessing that'll still go ahead?
If it does and the no vote wins, what happens? If it goes ahead and the yes vote wins, I'm guessing SNP will now scramble for a new leader to sit in the chair?
I'm guessing if SNP gain a no confidence vote then do the polls open and Scotland has an emergency general election (or whatever it is called)?
The decision to not try to meet the climate targets really annoyed me, so I'm glad it has blown up, but I'm hoping something can be done to help start improving plenty of things that I (naively, I suspect) believe to have slipped and getting worse rather than better - not just climate stuff.
I don't see the Greens torpedoing the government, not now that Yousaf is out.
They aren't really 'election ready' at the moment.
I would tend to agree. If the greens back the government in a VONC then it falls. the only party who want an election now are Labour - everyone else is likely to lose seats
John Swinney, that is a damning indictment on the SNP, he's had his time and wasn't up to it in the 2000s when it was the golden age for the SNP, now he's the longest serving MSP who's just an old figure for the party, in football terms to keep Binners happy this is like bringing back Redknapp or Hodgson to steady the ship, not a good idea.
Could be worse i guess, Stephen Flynn could try and work out how to move houses and get the FM job, it amazes me that the SNP gave up decent orators in both parliaments and replaced them with humourless folk who struggle to answer questions that were presented to their teams a week previous!
One thing in this polarised debate is that unionists will never give the SNP led government any credit
In which case you might want to read what I wrote about the SNP a few pages back. I'm a committed unionist but I accept the SNP government has done a lot of good things in the past 15 years. In fact if it wasn't for the independence thing I'd probably vote for them.
And yes, before anyone says, I do get that the "independence thing" is kind of a deal breaker for the SNP. (-:
No one could have predicted the shit shower that was about to hit the SNP when Sturgeon announced she was quitting.
You’d have to wonder if she knew it was coming, though.
Hang on to that thought @ratherbeintobago...
I feel a bit shitty for the guy, a bit politically naive but seems decent enough?
Meh - time-serving, unremarkable SNP insider unexpectedly propelled to the leadership. 13 years as an MSP and still politically naive...?
I feel a bit shitty for the guy
Oh, bloody hell. Predictive! That should have read, sorry, not shitty.
apologies Kennyp. shouyld have read "most" 🙂 You are one of the reasonable ones. Again apologies.
he ditched them before they ditched the BHA. I think he was poorly or dishonestly advised
I think he was stuck between a rock and a hard place - be seen by SNP members to be beholden to the Green members OR risk them retaliating by siding with the tories. I’m not sure, on reflection, that Green members/voters will actually look back positively on their response.
No one with any ambition or nous really wants the job now as its almost certain the SNP are going to lose seats at both westminster and holyrood. Hence Yousaf got the job and Swinney looks likely now. anyone with talent or ambition is waiting until after the next holyrood election when it will be rebuild time not taking a job where they know they will likely be ousted for a poor set of election results
I’m not sure, on reflection, that Green members/voters will actually look back positively on their response.
I'm a green voter and I am displeased with them in this parliament - not so much for this but for using so much political capital on non core missions - they could have achieved a lot more in their core mission.
they are still struggling with the transition from pressure group to party of government IMO
If it does and the no vote wins, what happens? If it goes ahead and the yes vote wins, I’m guessing SNP will now scramble for a new leader to sit in the chair?
I don’t think it matters if there is a VONC now - there’s 28 days from resignation of FM for a new FM to be appointed by Holyrood. Essentially the SNP need to undergo their leadership process in the next 28 days, and then Parliament get to decide if they support that person becoming FM (or presumably if the leader was from WM then whoever is nominated by the party). Depending who they pick and what backroom promises they can make it will determine if the opposition parties want to play the game or roll the dice for an election (my guess is tories, green and possibly alba would all do worse in an election; Labour might gain some seats but not enough to be biggest party. Ultimately they may end up with the same FM anyway!
I don't think it is 28 days from now. While he has announced he is going Humza remains FM meantime. The act says the 28 day clock starts ticking from the day the FM tendering his resignation to the King.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/46
I presume he will not do that until parliament has elected his successor.
irc - yes I have listened to what he actually said now rather what was reported and he is essentially stating an intention to resign rather than going. His words were clearly meant to be conciliatory so the greens can work with his successor on a confidence and supply basis and sticking two fingers up at alba!
interesting article. |I'm not sure I agree with it in entirity but its an interesting take
No one could have predicted the shit shower that was about to hit the SNP when Sturgeon announced she was quitting.
You’d have to wonder if she knew it was coming, though.
It's been years in the making, add in the Salmond nightmare, other controversies in government, such as the gender recognition bill causing division in the SNP, and the struggle to keep the BHA going with failures over the last few years and it was clear as day it was a poisoned chalice for whoever took over from Sturgeon, as stated earlier, it reminded me of Gordon Brown becoming PM, he knew it was on a downward curve, but just wanted to be PM so took the position.
https://www.thenational.scot/politics/24287166.council-tax-freeze-went-wrong-humza-yousaf/
Interesting view from the Greens' side.
“You’d have to wonder if she knew it was coming, though. (Sturgeon) “
Of course she did. The accounts hadnt been filed, the Auditor had resigned, even in 2020, money was ‘missing’. The Membership had dropped dramatically, along with income, and they had lied about it to save face. Her Husband ‘lent’ the Party £100k+, so if he kept that quiet from her, she is either very naive, useless with money, or was totally ignorant of the Parties and personal finances. Being the Leader of the Party must involve some form of checking over the books,even if only when they have Party Board meetings, so when £650k of ring fenced money has been spent, or has disappeared , alarms bells should have been ringing for years.
@Brucewee that's an interesting read. The council tax freeze did seem at the time to be inconsistent with oyher policy decisions, in particular on tax.
In which case you might want to read what I wrote about the SNP a few pages back. I’m a committed unionist but I accept the SNP government has done a lot of good things in the past 15 years. In fact if it wasn’t for the independence thing I’d probably vote for them.
And yes, before anyone says, I do get that the “independence thing” is kind of a deal breaker for the SNP. (-:
And Unionism is YOUR deal breaker - basically you'd accept anything for Scotland as long as it had a Jack on it, is that what you're saying?
And Unionism is YOUR deal breaker – basically you’d accept anything for Scotland as long as it had a Jack on it, is that what you’re saying?
Totally wrong. Though I accept I shouldn't have used the word "committed". There are definitely arguments in favour of Scotland being independent. However for me there aren't nearly enough of them. I want what's best for Scotland (and indeed the UK given how many friends and family I have in the other parts). So far I haven't seen enough evidence that breaking up the union would be a good thing.
If supporters of independence put forward sound economic arguments (and similar) I'll happily listen and debate. What I can't be bothered with is the "Scotland needs to be free from English rule" drivel.
Of course she did. The accounts hadnt been filed, the Auditor had resigned, even in 2020, money was ‘missing’. The Membership had dropped dramatically, along with income, and they had lied about it to save face.
those “facts” she would, most likely, have been aware of but it doesn’t necessarily follow that she was expecting criminal prosecution to follow, or that it would land quite so close to home.
Her Husband ‘lent’ the Party £100k+, so if he kept that quiet from her, she is either very naive, useless with money, or was totally ignorant of the Parties and personal finances.
so those all seem like reasons that contradict your “of course she did”. I think it’s widely accepted that their marriage is a bit “odd”, even then it won’t be that uncommon for a CEO to lend his beloved organisation cash without informing his wife.
Being the Leader of the Party must involve some form of checking over the books,even if only when they have Party Board meetings,
I’m not actually convinced that is the party leaders job. There’s a treasurer, a ceo, and a president. The governance is clearly broken but I’m not sure any other party is actually better structured. I don’t think she has ever signed the accounts.
so when £650k of ring fenced money has been spent, or has disappeared , alarms bells should have been ringing for years.
Disappeared is the wrong word - I don’t think anyone has claimed it disappeared? It been spent on things which some people believe was outside the scope that it was provided for. But certainly questions had been asked, and she was aware those questions were being asked. Given how long it’s taken the police to come to any conclusion I think it’s a bit of a leap to assume that she MUST have known what was happening.
I think it’s widely accepted that their marriage is a bit “odd”, even then it won’t be that uncommon for a CEO to lend his beloved organisation cash without informing his wife.
I can certainly believe that a husband would engage in odd transactions without their wife knowing - gambling addicts do it all the time.
What's less credible is that she didn't know that AND she didn't know the SNP's dire financial position AND that she didn't know where the funds to plug the gap (or cover up the shortfall) came from. But of course that's a question for the court.
No one with any ambition or nous really wants the job now as its almost certain the SNP are going to lose seats at both westminster and holyrood.
That, and possibly the Sturgeon/Murrell criminal trial, which even if it doesn't personally involve the leader (not guaranteed considering how small a group of people we are talking about) will be weeks and weeks of coverage of the shambles inside the SNP...at best.
But of course that’s a question for the court.
We don't even know that this is the basis for the prosecution. Certainly lending money to the party isn't obviously embezzlement.
the Sturgeon/Murrell criminal trial,
Sturgeon has not even been charged! There's no certainty that even having been charged Murrrell will ever end up in court, nor elect to have a protracted trial if he does so.
You are right though - it's another shit show that should put people off being leader; it would be much easier to be the leader after this one, and allow a sacrificial lamb to deal with currently BHA mass, election losses, party financial ruin, possible media storm around court cases etc. But then people who want to stand as political leaders often aren't wired up like normal people anyway!
I want what’s best for Scotland (and indeed the UK given how many friends and family I have in the other parts). So far I haven’t seen enough evidence that breaking up the union would be a good thing.
If supporters of independence put forward sound economic arguments (and similar) I’ll happily listen and debate. What I can’t be bothered with is the “Scotland needs to be free from English rule” drivel
Totally agree, mostly what I hear from Indy supporters is "believe that Scotland will be better" however the evidence I see does not support this belief.
Do I think Scotland could thrive after Independence? Yes. How long will this take? Could be decades or might not happen at all. To me the risk is not worth the possible reward. If Indy supporters want Independence they need to provide sound evidence on what an Indy Scotland will look like and how it will succeed. Brexit was won on arguments we knew to be false at the time and currently the plan for Indy looks no different.
The SNP's failure on so many levels suggests to me that they are not to be trusted. Being better than the worst government in history is not such a great accolade.
"I’m not sure any other party is actually better structured"
I agree with everything else you say but other parties do not have a married couple as CEO and party leader. The other senior members of the SNP were either happy with this dodgy arrangment or too cowed by the Sturgeon/Murrell iron grip on the party to openly challenge it.
Iron grip? One random example the party treasurer who resigned because Murrell wouldn't let him see the books.
