[Closed] Scottish independence- where do you stand?

At least Scotland wouldn't be in the EU (as I believe they would have to apply separately) and pay stupid amounts of money to subsidise foreign farmers and the like

Who is going to subsidise the Scottish farmers?

The EU subsidises lots if projects in Scotland(UK). When that funding source dries up where is Eck & Nic going to find the resources?
What about our roads/infrastructure? All totally frecked.........
The mantra about "creating" 200,000 jobs will all be about increasing the civil service to run the country!!
Look at all the centralisation/closures of public services that is happening at the moment. He can conveniently blame it on the Uk government/s but he is actually downsizing/future proofing himself in the hope that he is still in government come 2016.
Are all the yes voters prepared for the increases in tax to pay for Ecks dream????

You may have gathered I am a no as is MrsT who works in one of wee Ecks quangos and sees the waste of money that his crew are currently presiding over. She is also aware of some potentialy huge cost of separation...

This will turn into the same issue that we currently face as the UK ie there will be a wealthy central belt and those of us in the South or North will(the minority)will be paying through the nose for their excesses 🙄

In York. Born and (pretty much) bred in Glasgow though.

Having met wee Alex, I'd trust him as far as I could throw Eric Pickles.

I don't get to vote (foreign soil and all - though Yorkshire is remarkably like Scotland), but I understand good majority of Scots are quite happy to be British - they're just not English thank you (according to radio 4). Visit the municipal museum in Dublin, top floor, for some very similar views in the 50 years leading up to 1916.

Edit: GrahamS, some of Scotland and Wales are British as is Cornwall and (unsurprisingly) Brittany. England, generally speaking is not British, but AngloSaxon (or if you prefer Germanic). Happy to troll.

Isn't it the case that the Central belt dominates Scotland too much under the current system trekster? Why notvote for a change to the system.? I for one would support any decentralisation agenda post independence. I support independence and therefore vote SNP, but after independence I may well change.

British/English.
Living in Scotland.
No vote from me.

gordimhor - Member
Isn't it the case that the Central belt dominates Scotland too much under the current system trekster?

Why not vote for a change to the system.?

Having met wee Alex, I'd trust him as far as I could throw Eric Pickles.

Scottish, living in Scotland - big YES from me.

Main reasons - think we are capable of standing on our own two feet and tired of listening to all the negative crap getting spouted as a rationale for screwing the whole country over by the Tories. Since the population of Englandshire seem content to swallow whatever Cameron spouts while he asset strips the country for the benefit of his private industry chums, the only alternative seems to be to bail out before it gets any worse. If we vote No, we are going to get absolutely pumped in return - they're already talking about renegotiating the Barnett formula so we get an even less back from what we contribute into the national pot.

Right on cue, Boris reminds us of what's coming if we vote no...

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/27/boris-johnson-thatcher-greed-good ]Boris for PM[/url]

This is our chance to give ourselves and our children a chance to manage our country in a way we want.

A massive [b]YES[/b] vote here.

Don't be too sure that England is heavily pro-Union. as i've said i only know personally of three people - one of whom is a poster on STW and the other two transplanted Scots - who support the idea of Scotland staying in the Union. Anecdote is not always evidence but my experience is that quite a nmuber of English people want Scotland to leave the Union.

Trekster they might turn out to be just as bad as any government or the best thing since sliced bread. If we vote for independence then we'll have the decisive say on who governs Scotland which we don't have the moment. It's bringing power a little bit closer to the people .
I am not aware of any dissent within the SNP though I am not a member. Isn't it normal in cabinet governmentfor ministers to have to follow the party line even if they disagree on one topic or another.

Since the population of Englandshire seem content to swallow whatever Cameron spouts while he asset strips the country for the benefit of his private industry chums

🙄

Less than a quarter of the electorate voted Tory at the last election, so don't tar us all with the same brush please.

See what i mean about some people viewing all English people as the same?
I have no doubt that the rise in pro-Independence thought in England is fueled in part by a percieved rise in anti English rhetoric from certain quarters, neither of which is particularly clever but i do think it is there all the same.

Scots based in East Lothian , NO vote from me.

See what i mean about some people viewing all English people as the same?
I have no doubt that the rise in pro-Independence thought in England is fueled in part by a percieved rise in anti English rhetoric from certain quarters, neither of which is particularly clever but i do think it is there all the same.

So do I. There's definitely a perception down here that what was considered a friendly rivalry between the nations has changed over the years. Friends and colleagues of mine have been discussing the yes/no vote and a common comment is that they have become aware over time of a genuine dislike that previously was thought to be friendly rather than serious. People I know have expressed surprise and disappointment about this - perhaps you could argue that it's symptomatic of an insular and complacent attitude towards Scotland. Whatever the reason it definitely exists and I suspect that the English gutter press will fan the flames in the run up to the vote.

Interesting how Alex Salmond has promised improved this, improved that, more money for this, more money for that. You have to ask where all this extra money will come from? Either it's taking on huge extra amounts of debt, or upping taxes (a lot) but funnily enough I don't really recall him mentioning this in great detail, which makes most of what he says a load hot air - just like most power hungry politicians. If the Scots vote yes and win, expect a load of broken promises.

I'm English, live in England and would vote no. I think that we're stronger together and the Scots as part of the Union are part of a major global player, not the small, insular also-rans that they'd be resigned to after independence.

i would be sad if the people of Scotland voted for independance, but i understand why they might.

The government of Westminster doesn't serve people any more than it serves pigeons. The chance to try something different* must be very tempting.

(*no ****ing tories)

Wife is Scottish but living in England. She would vote no and so would I. If you think there is any difference between any politician's I'm afraid you're deluded. We want less not more surely.

Scottish, live in Scotland big overwhelming YES for me.
Other half is from Yorkshire lived here 12 years and will be voting YES as well.

I lived in Leeds for over a decade have nothing against the English it's being ruled from Westminster where all decisions are taken to favour and pander to middle England that I don''t like.
Scotland has been subjected to and suffered from a Tory government for about half of my time on the planet despite never voting for them, if Scotland's vote hadn't counted in the British election for all of that time England/Wales would still have elected the same government which shows the lack of a voice the Scots have had at Westminster.

The Tories to me are the biggest con ever inflicted on the people of England, they represent the rich and priviliged, anyone from outwith this group who votes for them is an idiot. The tories would have the lower classes reduced to serfdom if they thought they could get away with it, their recent attacks on the poor, sick and unemployed bear witness to this. Scots have rejected this Tory vision and are still suffering from its implementation, the only way out of theis cycle of Tory rule is independence. (New Labour have lurched so far to the right to match the Tories in middle England that they are not far off being just as bad, there is no real left of centre thought in English politics any more.)

I'm very pro European and fear the rise of UKIP and a growth of anti EU feeling in the South is a massive threat to our EU membership. The 'South' seems to be lurching towards the right and becoming more anti-immigrant/forigner, not really a culture I want to be part of.

The government of Westminster doesn't serve people any more than it serves pigeons. The chance to try something different* must be very tempting.

(*no ****ing tories)

Up to now Scotland hasn't had complete control over its finances, when it does I wouldn't be at all surprised if a large proportion of the population (say around half) decide that lower taxes are preferable to social services - give it 10 years and Scotland will have its own Tory party in government.

English living in England and think an independent Scotland would be a mistake.

Its been a big SNP/Alex S ego building and power trip over the past few years.

There is virtually no sensible reason to break from the Union and most of the case made by the SNP is total bunkum.

Yes and a No in this house.

Not convinced STW is reflective of the Scottish electorate tbh. Might be wrong.

As a side note, I don't knowingly know any pro Union English. But I know plenty that would are happy enough for the Scots to leave. It seems mainly borne from fatigue at being tarred as the nasty old English. Which in general is a myth as far as I can tell, but it's something fairly commonly perceived. I do wonder sometimes if anti English sentiment is greater in some regions of Scotland than others, I very much suspect so. That said, the only occasion where I've felt my place of birth an issue was when an SNP guy came to the door. Although Scotroutes hypothesised at the time that was more an issue with bad breath. The git.

Bencooper, interesting you should be semi seriously considering emigrating. I know of three households considering the same if Scotland votes Yes. (Not mine btw) 2 Scottish, 1 English just for the record.

wealthy central belt and those of us in the South or North will(the minority)will be paying through the nose for their excesses

+1

I'm from NE England, now live in the SE. Outside of London, it isn't as different from the North as the media and some people would have you believe.

I have lived in the Scottish Central Belt and worked in a lot of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.

The Scottish Central Belt has more in common with London than, for example, the Orkneys.

If Scotland does vote to go doesn't that condemn the rest of us to life under the Conservative yoke?

'Scotland does vote to go doesn't that condemn the rest of us to life under the Conservative yoke?'

for a few more years, yes. It may force labour and the lib dems to properly differentiate themselves from the tories though. Or just move closer I suppose.

Rebel 12 you'll find there is sn economic case for independence achieved by not paying for trident, and growing th economy therefore increasing the tax take. As for being insular ....Ukip aren't doing too well here.
Inbred456 yep a vote for independence will result in fewer politicians .

Its been a big SNP/Alex S ego building and power trip over the past few years.

You don't have to like the man but this is misguided at best. Salmond leads a party that's been votes into power at the last 2 Scottish elections, and who clearly campaigned that a vote for the SNP was a vote for a referendum. We as a country made a choice to have this debate and decision, don't dismiss that as the ego of a single man.

There's a lot of ignorance on this thread, all of those saying independence doesn't stack up have read the 600+ page blueprint from the yes campaign (which is not just SNP) I assume? You'd do well to take a balanced viewpoint, press and politicians on both sides are unlikely to be telling the truth.

For me the economic arguments are a sideshow, I'd crawl over broken glass to vote yes. And it's not England, that's another smokescreen, it's the UK I don't want to be a part of. Put it this way, if you pool resources with your neighbour you could love together in a bigger house, but if their family is bigger they'll dominate and you'll have to put up with all their bad habits. Wouldn't you want to have your own front door and make your own rules, even if it cost you a bit more?

...growing th economy therefore increasing the tax take...

easier said than done.

gordimhor - Member
...Ukip aren't doing too well here [Scotland]

ukip aren't doing well in England, they've exactly zero MP's, why they get any airtime is a mystery*.

(*maybe because there's a hope UKIP support will reduce the tory votes)

English Midlander living in the SE of England, France is nearer to me than Scotland, I know very little about the detail and don't really consider it will affect me in the slightest. I don't get the opportunity to vote and don't really mind either way anyway.

Let the population who live there decide, like Gibraltar and the Falklands!

We're semi-seriously considering emigrating if Scotland doesn't get independence.

Where to?

Think about the possible extremes there though:

- Scotland votes massively in favour of leaving, but the rest of the UK votes to keep them against their will.

- Scotland votes massively in favour of staying in The Union, but the rest of the UK decides to turf them out.

Neither of those outcomes sound very palatable.

Good points there. There are ways around that however in that the votes stats aren't declared, the result is, but not the 'split' of votes. E.g the results are published - 70% of Britain, which they a re part of at the moment, votes in favour and 30% against.

In the views of the resident Scots, what are your reasons for independence anyway?

Well, born NI but living Scotland for nearly 30 years. Voting NO for reasons mentioned in other threads.
Wife Scottish, voting NO, mainly because of what her cousin in the SNP has told her about the party and Alex Salmond

unknown - Member

Put it this way, if you pool resources with your neighbour you could love together in a bigger house, but if their family is bigger they'll dominate and you'll have to put up with all their bad habits. Wouldn't you want to have your own front door and make your own rules, even if it cost you a bit more?

My understanding of a quick scan of the 600+ pages is that you would get your own front door but you'd be asking to share the electricity, the chequebook and the landlord and deferring any decisions on what you waould actually want to do with these until some unspecified point in the future.

What's being proposed is half-arsed at best. Alec has got his way on the referendum but has lost all that boldness he appeared to have because he knows that the majority of people are a bit scared of the prospect of going it alone.

all of those saying independence doesn't stack up have read the 600+ page blueprint from the yes campaign (which is not just SNP) I assume?

Well probably half of it! including the subterfuge (no nukes (page xii) except the oneswe don't know about, cough, hidden much later), the confused arguments regarding independence (sic) which involves giving up control of monetary policy to the RUK, giving up fiscal policy (at least in the case of corporation tax) to the rest of RUK etc....some independence?????

You'd do well to take a balanced viewpoint

Certainly not from [i]Scotland's Future[/i] that IS for sure.

If we vote No, we are going to get absolutely pumped in return - they're already talking about renegotiating the Barnett formula so we get an even less back from what we contribute into the national pot.

Not sure about that but certainly if you vote yes. Salmond loves to think he can have his cake and eat and that riles in RUK to the same extent as the lack of true representation from W'minster riles Scots. But in the (unfortunate IMO) case of a yes vote then yes the gloves come off and it will beocme a bare knuckled fight. Salmond will fight hard for Scotland's best interests and RUK will do the same. But the latter will not let him get away with the "current cake and all strategy" nor yesterday's threat to default on Scotland's debt. * That WILL BE nasty and negative and will expose some of the fairy stories in the arguments presented yesterday (eg *). It will also be a shame for Scoltand and for RUK.

Still the Spanish PM is weighing in with his expected level of support. Of course, that part is all covered in the 667 pages!!! Expect wee eck to ignore the conclusion but focus on anohpther European leader describing him as the President of Scotland already. Does EIIR know yet?

Leaving aside people's stances, the "negativity stuff" is interesting. It's pretty hard not to be negative if you are defending a NO position. But I would be feeling pretty confident in the yes campaign. Ignoring all of Salmond/Sturgeons lack of joined up analysis, there is a major trump card. The will of the Scots that will rise with a successfully C'wealth Games and Ryder Cup etc and will give a real boost to sense of Scottish pride at just the right time for the YES camp. Expect a strong YES swing closer to the vote.

We're semi-seriously considering emigrating if Scotland doesn't get independence.
Where to?

This is the problem - herself has suggested Scandinavia.

People who say we need fewer politicians not more of them haven't really thought through what the word "independence" means 😉

I'm English with Welsh ancestry with a wife brought up in Scotland with a Scottish father and English mother, living in Wales.

Splitting this mixed up little island just to make more jobs for politicians isn't something that I'm in favour of.

On the plus side it'll mean the end of Labour and a competition as to who can offer the lowest corporation tax.

So, whatever...

Isnt there a bloody beat elephant standing in the middle of the room here, waking its tail, stamping its feet and blowing through its trunk? IMO one of the reasons why Scotland's Future is a disppointment is the fact that it is not a manifesto for independence at all. It seems to me far more of a manifesto for devo-max. At that's the crux, the thing that so many (including Salmond?) really want is not being voted on. Pity there isn't a rewind button.

This is the problem - herself has suggested Scandinavia.

Scandinavian countries have been steadily eroding their liberal credentials from what I've read. Probably still streets ahead of us though.

I'd agree that Devo Max is probably what most people want. Why isn't it an option?

Geordie exile living in Manchester here. I'm torn on this one. One one hand I hope they vote yes and make a success of breaking away from the farce that has become British politics, and if I had a vote I'd definitely vote yes. However for purely selfish reasons part of me wants them to vote no so it doesn't doom everyone outside of the south east and northern shires to perpetual tory government.

What I think is most interesting is how a yes vote will affect the politics of north v south. The north basically puts up with the status quo because every now and again we get a labour government who tip the balance the other way for a short time (or at least they attempt to). WIth Scotland gone that's not going to be possible any more so the same issues you now have with Scotland v Westminster will move south and become North England v Westminster, and if Scotland actually makes a success of it, how long before the north of England wants to join them?

If Scotland does get independence I'm up for a serious campaign to see if the North of England can join an independent Scotland (United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern England? 🙂 ).

I realise it's very unlikely though.

That would be awesome. Everything North of Birmingham please!

That would be awesome. Everything North of Birmingham please!

I can't imagine Scotland being remotely interested in sharing their lovely oil wealth with the Saes.

This.

Why would they want to add a great deal of low GDP producing land to their utopia? This has been at the heart of their argument for years, Scotland supports the nasty English with all their lovely oil.

There's a good article about the possible effects on the North of England here: [url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/10/independent-scotland-northern-england ]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/10/independent-scotland-northern-england[/url]

The idea of Glasgow and Edinburgh forming an economic zone with the major northern cities to counter London is an interesting one.

Conversely i welcome Scots independence because i think it would deliver a kick in the pants to the British Left. No longer would they be able to rely on Labour voting areas without doing much for them, they would be forced to interact more closely with the electorate and move leftwards to make themselves a real alternative.
Another good reason for the Scots to go it alone.

I can't imagine Scotland being remotely interested in sharing their lovely oil wealth with the Saes. After all, this is all about making ourselves better off.

Not for me, it isn't - it's about self-determination. So I'd be perfectly happy for the North of England to join an independent Scotland.

Not for me, it isn't - it's about self-determination. So I'd be perfectly happy for the North of England to join an independent Scotland.

?
So the Northerners wouldn't get a say? It wouldn't be Scottish self determination otherwise. An independent Scotland including half of England is not an independent Scotland.
Seems to me you just don't want a tory govt. And there is no guarantee you won't get the same or worse even if it's just for a short period.

Not for me, it isn't - it's about self-determination.

Ben - this may be true of yourself, however, IME the oil revenues have been at the heart of every discussion on independence I have ever had with Scots.

What about Wales? What about Cornwall? They consider themselves Celtic.

I have worked with Cornish men who were absolutely serious about being independent. They were nutters mind. 🙂

An independent Scotland including half of England is not an independent Scotland.

Borders are just arbitrary lines in the sand. There's no rule anywhere that says Scotland (or any country for that matter) is restricted or defined by it's historical borders.

hels - Member

I plan to draw a big willie on my voting paper

Does that count as a 'yes'?

[img] [/img]

If Scotland leaves the UK I might apply for a visa.

I am can and will vote

[b]No[/b] from me (as it currently stands, I would be amazed if they can convince me but still time to do so)

Wife. [b]No.[/b] Hell would freeze over before she votes yes

There's no rule anywhere that says Scotland (or any country for that matter) is restricted or defined by it's historical borders.

That's not the SNPs view of things, in fact the complete opposite. What about all the cultural identity, making decisions for ourselves, [i]Scotlands[/i] oil etc etc. Also at odds with the recent debates (and Salmonds opinion) about Shetland.

If it wasnt for the snp id be more open to a yes vote.

But as mikewsmith said the other day. Snp have been like a student whos just got a new credit card the last couple of years.

So unless there is radical change im in the no camp.

Too much smoke and mirrors, and the linchpin of their campaign seems to be " do you want the scots to be known as chickens "

That's not the SNPs view of things

Maybe not, but it's not a given that the SNP will be in power in 10-20 years time when these issues will have had time to settle.

There are no issues. Some in Scotland want to be independent of the remainder of the UK. This includes England (north and south). This is what the vote is about. they do not want you or us or Wales or NI.

I'd agree that Devo Max is probably what most people want. Why isn't it an option?

Because Cameron doesn't want it, and he's far too clever to allow it on the ballot paper.

Grum I think Devo Max was dead in the water right from the start despite having quite a bit of popular support. The political parties on all sides were against it, SNP because of fears it would split the independence vote, Unionist partly because of its implications for other parts of the and mainly because they feared it would merely be a gradual step toward independence. I think its better explained here

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/09/03/question-time-2/

I'd agree that Devo Max is probably what most people want. Why isn't it an option?

That's because Devo Max is taking the piss. It is having your cake and eating it. The student with the credit card analogy would have be taken to another level if the SNP got devo max.

Still the Spanish PM is weighing in with his expected level of support. Of course, that part is all covered in the 667 pages!!! Expect wee eck to ignore the conclusion but focus on anohpther European leader describing him as the President of Scotland already. Does EIIR know yet?

The Spanish don't really distinguish between PM and President, and the local autonomous communities (Catalonia, Andalusia etc.) all have presidents. I'm sure that won't stop Salmond from making the most of that bit of the message, of course!

"...where do you stand?"
probably next to the fire to keep warm.

Will it be so popular that it is standing room only?

There are plenty of issues for the North of England. Yes, the scots may not want the north of England involved. That's fine. No one is suggesting that the north of England be forced upon the scots against their will. There may come a point though when the north of England demands autonomy from London for exactly the same reasons as the scots are now doing. If/when that happens, and depending on how independence plays out for the Scots, there may well be a convincing argument for the North of England to join Scotland for each side's mutual benefit.

Scot living in Scotland and a definite no from me, GF's the same. My father is also a no, step mums the same. Most of my mates are no or undecided.

In fact the only person I know voting yes for sure is Druidh 😆

There may come a point though when the north of England demands autonomy from London for exactly the same reasons as the scots are now doing. If/when that happens, and depending on how independence plays out for the Scots, there may well be a convincing argument for the North of England to join Scotland for each side's mutual benefit.

We're semi-seriously considering emigrating if Scotland doesn't get independence.

Ha! I might have to move with my job if it does go independent.

Back on topic
Scottish living in Scotland (doubly blessed) Yes
Mrs Duck; Welsh lucky enough to be married to a Scot. Yes

the north of England demands autonomy from London

FFS this is just getting silly now.

I would imagine London would jump at the chance. 8 million people living in some kind economic super city. Not having to worry about there under performing neighbours!

Anyway what about the Midlands?

Why not just go the whole hog and have anarchy?*

*By that I mean a truly anarchic state with no central government and not chaos and rioting.

English, almost as far from Scotland as I can be without falling into the sea.
I don't care enough to even post on this thread.

English, with some scots-canadian ancestry. I hope the scots vote yes, and just to ensure the vote goes that way I want the franchise extended throughout the UK so that we can vote to be rid of them.

I am Scottish and British and a UK Citizen.
I am proud of all 3 and I know the difference between them.
I am voting NO, my wife is voting NO.

I believe the referendum will give a clear NO vote, but I fear the damage and bad feeling that Salmond and his cohorts are going to cause in the next 10 months. I fear that there is trouble ahead regardless.

How could the Scots resist having some of this kind of culture as part of their proud independent nation?

My OH's Moms Partner thinks we should all get to vote as it will effect us in England too...

By that effect, maybe the whole world should be governed in the same manner, oh wait...Team America!

Seems like most Scottish STWers are voting no...

For those worried about England being condemmed forever more to rule by the Tories if Scotland breaks away, in every election since the late 60s (at least) if you removed the Scottish vote from the overall then the rest of the UK would have ended up with the same government that was elected with Scottish votes included.

Show how little influence we Scots have over the government we get and is a main reason for me wanting independence

Show how little influence we Scots have over the government we get and is a main reason for me wanting independence

We'll just ignore Blair and Brown, then?

For those worried about England being condemmed forever more to rule by the Tories if Scotland breaks away, in every election since the late 60s (at least) if you removed the Scottish vote from the overall then the rest of the UK would have ended up with the same government that was elected with Scottish votes included.

Don't think that's quite true. IIRC '64 and '74 would have been different and this last election would have been a Tory majority rather than a coalition (you can argue there's no difference though 🙁 ).

Show how little influence we Scots have over the government we get and is a main reason for me wanting independence

If you live in a 'safe' constituency as most of us do then you don't have any influence over the government you get either. The difference is Scotland potentially gets to potentially do something about it.

BLair and (by default) Brown were voted in by the English electorate as were Thatcher and Major. Scots didn't vote for Thatcher or Major at any point but were landed with them anyway, we arguably suffered the most from their policies as well.

Grum, the figures I saw said that the Scots vote was not decisive in any recent election, I will go and check up on this though. Sorry if I'm spreading mis-information.(If I am I guess there's always hope of a career in politics)

For long time I've thought that the problem lies within London and the South East.
My proposal is to make everything within the M25 an independent state, outside Europe. We'll be happy, they'll be happy.
If that happens, the rest of us will be quite happy to continue as the UK I'm guessing!

we arguably suffered the most from their policies as well.

Really? I know plenty of Geordies and Scousers who will happily argue that with you!

I'm liking the idea that Scotland gets independence, the north of England applies to join and at a later date Wales follows suit.
It could be called the United Trailcentres of Britain.

Still wouldn't vote for independence (even if I got a vote).

Edit: Deveron has the answer.

For me the argument about Westminster rule rings very true, but is an argument for increased powers for the Scottish government (Devo Max), not a complete dissolution of the union.

igm - Member
I'm liking the idea that Scotland gets independence, the north of England applies to join and at a later date Wales follows suit.
It could be called the United Trailcentres of Britain.

Why does everyone think the North of England is part of Scotland? We sorted that one out years ago.