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Salmond does indeed highlight the crushing beige-ness of our present politicians
Inevitable consequence of democracy.
Salmond seems to be hated by all my friends up here in the oil capital. In fact the whole independence thing is a big NO from most as well. Mainly since if you are up here and Scotland went independent then you could replace the South East of England with the central belt, we will be taxed to death to pay for central belt madcap schemes.
so there you have it the very rich dont want to pay even in Scotland
Inevitable consequence of democracy.
Why? The SNP have blown that theory out of the water in Scotland. They beat a system specifically designed so that they couldn't win a majority! Are you saying that a more radical, credible alternative to the 2 party system wouldn't have the same success in Westminster? Tribal support for either party is a thing of the past. And in that environment, I can't see Labour or the Tories arousing much enthusiasm in anyone. As the last election (non) result proved
[quote=dragon ]Salmond seems to be hated by all my friends up here in the oil capital. In fact the whole independence thing is a big NO from most as well. Mainly since if you are up here and Scotland went independent then you could replace the South East of England with the central belt, we will be taxed to death to pay for central belt madcap schemes.
Yep. The SNP are a real "central belt" party.
[img] 
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You couldn't make that accusation against labour. Nope. No way.
Wont somebody think of the [s]children[/s] poor defenceless oil companies trying to [s]an honest living[/s] make a fortune out of Scottish Oil
If you get independence then us lot in the North of England are well and truly screwed!
After independence, we could just quietly move the Scottish border one mile south every year, and see if anyone in Westminster noticed.
[quote=bencooper ]If you get independence then us lot in the North of England are well and truly screwed!
After independence, we could just quietly move the Scottish border one mile south every year, and see if anyone in Westminster noticed.
I thought that you were allowed to build a fence and any land became yours after 7 years?
After independence, we could just quietly move the Scottish border one mile south every year, and see if anyone in Westminster noticed.
Before the union, the border was pretty fluid anyway.
It's not about the SNP, it's about the fact that whoever gets in always spend most money in and around the capital city.
Just the Capital, or the central belt in general?
You'll always get a kind of halo effect from the capital anyway, so you could say both. Same way South East England does from London.
Inevitable consequence of democracy.
Why?
Cos the parties have to move towards the centre to try and poach votes from the margins of each others' support. Maybe that's possible because everyone's dissatisfied...
You think the Tories and Labour are "centre"?
[img] http://www.politicalcompass.org/charts/uk2010.php [/img]
I thought that you were allowed to build a fence and any land became yours after 7 years?
No. 'Sqautter's rights' used to come into force if you had been looking after maintaining land for at least 12 years. Nothing to do with fences. You could then apply to the land registry to have become yours. This is now not the case, you now have find out who the landowner is and ask their permission, if they agree then it becomes yours. Sometimes best to keep quiet and just carry on using the land. No idea what happens if the owner can't be traced, no doubt someone here will know.
.
Anyway, if Scotland becomes independent what happens to the seat at the UN? Does the rest of the UK keep the status of permanent member and Scotland becomes a normal member? If they attempt to reconfigure the security council India and Brazil and probably a few others are going to start demanding permanent seats on the same basis China was given one way back when.
The U.N. is a pretty ineffective organisation it has failed to prevent conflicts and failed to prevent abuse of human rights world wide. However it is the only show in town and does provide a place for talk rather than war. I reckon a lot of the emerging countries would be more likely to achieve a change in the voting system at the UN.rather than a place on the security council which I can't see changing for some years .America wants the UK on the council and most likely China want to keep India out of it.
Salmon does not want independence, because then he would never have the big, bad wolf of Westminster to blame when things went wrong. he is trying to get more powers for Scotland (Devo-Max). However Westminster has called his bluff. He will lose the vote (probably quite closely) but will then try to demand more powers be transferred. However since the vote does not include Devo-Max (there is no definition of it) I suspect Westminster will tell him to go away.
At this point the SNP are stuffed. They will have lost on their main single issue and as such I am expecting lost of infighting - which will be very amusing!
[quote=sadmadalan ]Salmon does not want independence, because then he would never have the big, bad wolf of Westminster to blame when things went wrong. he is trying to get more powers for Scotland (Devo-Max). However Westminster has called his bluff. He will lose the vote (probably quite closely) but will then try to demand more powers be transferred. However since the vote does not include Devo-Max (there is no definition of it) I suspect Westminster will tell him to go away.
At this point the SNP are stuffed. They will have lost on their main single issue and as such I am expecting lost of infighting - which will be very amusing!
You've not really been following this much, have you? Salmond played a blinder by getting the UK Govt to dismiss any notion of a Devo-max settlement. He knew that this was, by some margin, the most popular option amongst the Scottish electorate and that it would reduce the number prepared to vote for full independence. Despite more devolution having been previously dismissed (where is your "line in the sand" now Ruth Davidson?) the dependency parties are now falling over themselves in promising more power in the event of a No vote, just as they did in 1979.
Again, don't agree. The agenda hasn't been status quo vs independence, in fact the approaching referendum's led to a lot of talk about devolving more powers- essentially it's become devo max or independence, with the status quo being the one option that came off the table as Westminster tries to bribe us. Meanwhile the vote-splitting devo-max option which would have made a Yes vote incredibly unlikely is gone.
And I reckon the SNP will carry on quite happilly- tbh I don't really know how you reconcile the 2 parts of your post, "Salmond doesn't want independence" vs "the SNP are stuffed". The suggestion they're a single issue party is basically absurd at this point.
I'd be quite sad to see Scotland leave the union. Totally appreciate that it's a sensible question to ask. Utterly scared that there may indeed be no escape from the black hole of Tory government 🙁
Brief synopsis of devo max please?
[quote=RichPenny ]Brief synopsis of devo max please?
There isn't / can't be one. For a start, some folk talk about some sort of "federated" UK. That might mean all taxes/revenues being allocated by country and then a kitty for stuff like defence. We'd also need some sort of English Parliament. Such a change would affect [i]all[/i] the countries in the UK and would surely, therefore, require a UK-wide referendum.
I'm not saying that these things are a bad idea or impossible, but it's not in the gift of the UK Govt to offer them as things stand.
What we [i]are[/i] seeing is some sort of ongoing Devo-plus, with new powers (and responsibilities) being added on in a piecemeal fashion.
FWIW, I don't think Devo-max would be a sustainable position. Trident (replacement) is the most obvious sticking point.
Cheers. So Devo Max would be like the kitty for a stag do, only if Wales forgot to book the stripper then you'd have to waggle your finger in his face instead of booting him out of the pub? Seems like a slightly pointless solution to me.
I find the idea that Salmond is some kind of talented politician who runs rings round other politicians, especially those in Westminster, somewhat absurd. The last 12 months or so have exposed him for the opportunist that sceptics have always believed. His whole political career has been about preparing Scotland for independence. And yet when basic questions are asked about the economic (currency, central bank, monetary policy, lender of last resort) and political (EU membership, currency regimes etc) he has been found completely wanting. This vote is too important for this to be an acceptable position and is a great shame for Scotland, Bluff and bluster has no place here.
FWIW, I find it difficult to imagine Scotland finding a more attractive solution than the status quo. They are being misled on independence, but as my own Scottish education has told me, they are not doubt sensible enough to come to their own correct conclusion!
[quote=teamhurtmore ]
FWIW, I find it difficult to imagine Scotland finding a more attractive solution than the status quo.
Then you have a very poor imagination.
Yes, along with the majority of those currently polled Scotroutes!
I think that if we have a yes vote next year the following will happen.
The first few days and weeks will be uncomfortable for English people in Scotland. The immediate triumphalism will die down, and then Salmond will sit at the negotiating table with the Westminster government to carve up the spoils. Having promised his core support that we will have all the good bits, leaving the UK with all the bad bits and some nuclear subs. As this is an untenable negotiating position all will not go as he hopes. He will sabre rattle similar to what we see between Spain and Gibralter by appealing to a core anti Englishness. A far darker SNP shall emerge.
Once everything is sorted, after 10, 20 or 30 years we will be watching mainly Scottish TV and reading papers of mainly Scottish news, not competing as a team in sporting events, and congregating around Scottish based social media. Scottish peoples daily world will be a smakler place. The union might get taught as history in schools, however it will show that for 300 years that poor Scotland lived in a state of serfdon under the control of an English dictatorship.
I know many 'positive' nationalist on here do appear to feel downtrodden by an English government. Thankfully your view is still in the minority in Scotland, where the majority feel no such insecurities.
Nothing wrong with your imagination.
Too wee, too poor, too stupid?
Salmon does not want independence, because then he would never have the big, bad wolf of Westminster to blame when things went wrong
Whatever you may think of him it is clear he does want independence
I find the idea that Salmond is some kind of talented politician who runs rings round other politicians, especially those in Westminster, somewhat absurd.
Be hinest the competition is not exactly stellar 😉
And yet when basic questions are asked about the economic (currency, central bank, monetary policy, lender of last resort) and political (EU membership, currency regimes etc) he has been found completely wanting.
He is not completely wanting but it is a tad unrealistic to expect him to have negotiated with the EU, NATO and what remains of the UK prior to the vote in order to give full and complete answers.
None of those will talk anyway as it is not an independent country
I dont rhink it is unreasonable, nor entirely satisfactory, to say we dont know
The pro union insist they wont have the pound - are you sure that is also a true answer?
The relaity is for many of the issues we dont know
Its like expecting a divorced couple to have all the answers to every question at the point of splitting up.
FWIW, I find it difficult to imagine Scotland finding a more attractive solution than the status quo.
A gilt edged cage is still a gilt edged cage
that is you may well have a point but it may not matter. See the Uk reaction to the EU for another example of this principle in action 😉
Dear Leader Salmon can rule his people as he wishes ...
He can call himself Salmon king or whatever he likes and be the ruler of the Scots ...
Then see the other clans challenge him for his title. 😆
Scotroutes. DD might be able to help, but I don't see many threads on Irish trail centres, the Irish situation with regards to ROW, days out in the Mountains of Mourne, or Irish politics. I might be wrong but I reckon this is taking place on Irish based forums.
Also is there an independant source for your chart above, or is it scotroutes microsoft paint?
[quote=athgray ]Scotroutes. DD might be able to help, but I don't see many threads on Irish trail centres, the Irish situation with regards to ROW, days out in the Mountains of Mourne, or Irish politics. I might be wrong but I reckon this is taking place on Irish based forums.I'm probably being thick here, but I'm not getting your point
[quote=athgray ]Also is there an independant source for your chart above, or is it scotroutes microsoft paint?The Political Compass? It comes from here... http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Feel free to offer you independent critique.
My point is that if you agree that is the case, we in Scotland will congregate to Scottish social media in years to come. If this site is an example of social unity within the UK, it then makes a mockery of Salmonds claim of the social union remaining. This is only one example. Our social ties will undoubtably be eroded as our children and their children grow up with no sense of the UK.
To think otherwise is letting your imagination run away with itself!
Athgray - there are differences between what happened with Ireland and what would happen Now with Scotland. Scotland shares much more with England now than Ireland did I think, but it also has a land border and communications and economic integration are far greater.
athgray - MemberScotroutes. DD might be able to help, but I don't see many threads on Irish trail centres, the Irish situation with regards to ROW, days out in the Mountains of Mourne, or Irish politics. I might be wrong but I reckon this is taking place on Irish based forums.
See, thing is, Eire seceded almost 100 years ago, which was a wee bit before the creation of social media. So it's hard to see any parallels between a nation that has been separate for generations, and a nation that has strong links today.
What new technology will come along in the next 100 years Northwind after we come out of the union?
Yes we do have strong links. Why try to erode them over the next century?
The entire point of declaring independence is severing the links you don't like. Any social links that people do like will remain- there is no reason for them not to, people forge the links they choose and break the links they choose.
Instead of looking at Eire, how about north america, look at the nonexistant lines between canadian and american social networks, it's perfectly clear that national distinction only creates a social divide if you choose to make it so. Unsurprisingly the messy separation and bad blood between Eire and the UK isn't comparable to an amicable separation.
People alive today that know of the union may choose to keep those ties, but these ties will certainly be diluted in the next generation. I find the 'amicable split' analogy spurious at best. Assuming a yes vote next year, you will have one side that I don't think wants the divorce, and only half the other side that dies. I don't know in what messed up world that could be described as amicable.
I will go out on a limb here and suggest that if Salmond gets a yes result next year, he will no longer have to tip toe to gain moderate support. He will have a mandate and political power of a level he has never had. I feel we may then have a leadership style closer to that seen in Russia rather than a Western democracy.
I think it was our dear leader that recently drew comparisons with Eire by the way.
I'm not a Salmond fanboy, but comparing the SNP slightly left of centre policies with Putin is talking pish to put it mildly.
What i don't get is why any English person is bothered one way or the other?
Its down to the Scots to decide, it wont affect us English either way so why the interest?
And reading a bit further back in this thread I'm struck by a few things. I've spent a bit of time in Finland this year - a small nation of 5 million people. Do they feel they need to join back up with Russia, or go calling on the Danes, Swedes or other Baltic neighbours to form a "union". Do they hell. Setting aside economics etc, why do these great ties matter? They matter today sure, but will they matter in 50 years if we split up? No.
I'm not passionately for or against but I find spurious "we need a union because we've always had one" arguments distracting from the real issues.
He will have a mandate and political power of a level he has never had. I feel we may then have a leadership style closer to that seen in Russia rather than a Western democracy.
I look forward to a semi naked wee eck wrestling tigers and riding horses bareback which is probably more likely than what you say
The SNP have a leader who thinks that it is acceptible for politicians of other countries to be hounded out of Scotland if he thinks we don't want to hear them.
A director for the yes campaign that uses language more at home in Flower of Scotland, and a justice minister that spent the duration of the England v Scotland match 14 years ago in a police cell for being drunk and disorderly (although he was not charged). They are not the sort of people I want taking us forward over the next 5 to 10 years.
The only person in that shower I have much time for is John Swinney, however he is a bean counter lacking the charisma to take the cause forward.
I am glad dazzlingboy that you have come to the consensus that social ties will be weakened over time, especially as Salmond recently went to pains to promote them going forward. He knows the ties will weaken. Makes me wonder if he really cares about the other ties he promoted such as the monarchy and currency. Nationalists will continue to lap up his hot air, when in fact it is lie after lie after lie.
athgray - Member
I will go out on a limb here and suggest that if Salmond gets a yes result next year, he will no longer have to tip toe to gain moderate support. He will have a mandate and political power of a level he has never had. I feel we may then have a leadership style closer to that seen in Russia rather than a Western democracy.
I think it was our dear leader that recently drew comparisons with Eire by the way.
Dear Leader is good. You will have to bow to him the Salmon king and learn the new way of living. 😈
🙂
What i don't get is why any English person is bothered one way or the other?
Its down to the Scots to decide, it wont affect us English either way so why the interest?
Loads of reasons why it could affect you directly.
Politically, Scotland (and Wales) are thought different to England. Removing that influence might move the goalposts.
Financially there has to be a difference, either Scotland is a net contributor or it isn't. Most likely is, given the resources.
Strategically, there are some decent energy reserves.
Lastly, I just generally like the feeling of the UK as is. Many scots don't feel the same 🙁
Well, Scotland can be as independent as it likes, but it will still be geographically correct to call its inhabitants British.
That will probably rile somewhat!
he first few days and weeks will be uncomfortable for English people in Scotland.
my work and social group is pretty narrow as a section of society, id doubt id notice if i turned the telly off tbh.
What i don't get is why any English person is bothered one way or the other?
Its down to the Scots to decide, it wont affect us English either way so why the interest?
as scotlands largest minority, we have an interest.
what is it, 400000?
Athgray I don't recognise the Alex Salmond , ,the SNP , the independent Scotland you describe . I don't actually believe there's any real comparison between Mr Salmond .the SNP government and Putins government. You are critical of Salmond on this website would you criticise Putin in Russia? The SNP had nothing to do with the student protest against Farage /Ukip ..As for the social media point these sites are not restricted by national borders and people use the sites they choose. .There's some great points about the shared interests and values of people from similar social classes in the article Scotroutes linked to. For ne social links are much more weakened by parts of the media with various scare stories and historically by economic migration. .it's inevitable that great distance between people changes their relationship. Economic migration will always happen somewhere.
(Edit)
I see a different SNP. At the moment they are attempting to hold centre ground to attract the undecided to their cause. I never said that the SNP organised the protest against Farage, however the entire incident and Salmonds reaction to it left a sour taste.
I am poor at cutting and pasting on here, however scotroutes political map of Scotland is quite telling. If have the same chip on my shoulder post independence that you all have now then I could argue that Scotland could be split in two just north of the central belt, as we will often have a party in power who are out of touch with large portions of the South of the country. This is before we start down a potential route of a breakaway Orkney and Shetland.
zokes - Member
Well, Scotland can be as independent as it likes, but it will still be geographically correct to call its inhabitants British.That will probably rile somewhat!
I guess the same "little Englanders" that can't accept the British Isles are part of Europe might have an issue with it.
This is before we start down a potential route of a breakaway Orkney and Shetland.
Leaving the rScot rather poor
I guess the same "little Englanders" that can't accept the British Isles are part of Europe might have an issue with it.
It irked you enough to reply 😉
The central belt has dominated policy making of all the govts since devolution and the Scottish Office before that. This has been bad for both the south and the Highlands .I believe that the devolved govt is more responsive to areas outside the central belt Ret equivalent ferry fares being one example. I would expect to see further improvement with independence, though I think people in the north and south will still have to fightto be heard no matter who is in power.
Hounding UKIP out of any part (if fact all parts) of the UK seems fairly reasonable. Problems is where would you send their racist, misogynist membership - no one else would have them.
A far darker SNP shall emerge.
What utter shite.
As for watching Scottish tv programmes, you will still be able to watch what you want. Although, it would be very refreshing to listen to radio Scotland sports news and amongst the top stories would be nothing about the English premiership. That's worth a yes vote in itself.
Although, it would be very refreshing to listen to radio Scotland sports news and amongst the top stories would be nothing about the English premiership. That's worth a yes vote in itself.
You're in fantasyland if you think you can avoid hearing about that in the sports section of the news in any country
What a pathetic reason for a yes vote nobeer.
What a pathetic reason for a yes vote nobeer.
*removes kilt, places broadsword back into the roof
**** it, if it means ridding my life of as much footy as possible I'll go full blown local.
Im off to get naked and paint myself blue whilst deep frying everything
Although, it would be very refreshing to listen to radio Scotland sports news and amongst the top stories would be nothing about the English premiership. That's worth a yes vote in itself.
You're in fantasyland if you think you can avoid hearing about that in the sports section of the news in any country
Why? I expect the Scottish news to be regional news. If I want to hear about football south of the border, I'd listen to a relevant station.
Athgray - dear oh dear.
Far too much of the rhetoric is based round our dear leader, who I agree is a bit of a roaster, but also a very good politician. The 2014 vote is not a vote for Salmond, it's a vote for our future.
How often is the premiership a top story on Radio Scotland? I can imagine the slight tinge of anger you feel when ever a news item from south of the border infiltrates your world. Don't feel too bad nobeer, I have heard far worse reasons than yours for a yes vote. There are nationalists out there who are fizzing if Andy Murray is described as British, or the BBC weather map marginalises Scotland. I think many people living down south would be shocked at some of the laughable reasons given for breaking up the union by nationalists.
Anyway, I found these two interesting reads for differing reasons
Why? I expect the Scottish news to be regional news. If I want to hear about football south of the border, I'd listen to a relevant station.
Because whatever happens in the Premier League is of interest to many people throughout the world, even the Scottish. Well, it seems that way, because I've been to many different countries, and systematically managed to avoid seeing it on the news at some point, even if it's just mentioning the top four results. It's a global league.
Sure, you can listen to a local radio station to avoid it, but you don't need to be independent to do that.
As another poster said. Of all the reasons to want independence, that's a particularly futile and absurd one
There are nationalists out there who are fizzing if Andy Murray is described as British
Well, he is. You can be as Scottish as you like, but, if you inhabit the same lump of rock called the British Isles, then guess what: you're also British.
You don't need to tell me that zokes. I think the Andrew Marr interview linked above is about spot on.
If I was Scottish I'd vote for it. I'd prefer it if they vote no, and the SNP field candidates in England, as I like their policies much better than any of the English parties.
What a pathetic reason for a yes vote nobeer.
well its better than voting No because Wee eck will become Putin
if you inhabit the same lump of rock called the British Isles, then guess what: you're also British.
So you are now Australian and no longer British then and some [northern]irish born people will be a tad cross with that as well
this is not a serious point either laugh or dont
I think many people living down south would be shocked at some of the laughable reasons given for breaking up the union by nationalists.
Have you looked at some of your reasons 😯
There are so many non-facts circulating about this.
I read recently that John Swinney has claimed that Scottish telephone users will receive less spam marketing calls under a devolved government.
It's becoming a sad and desperate formula. Pick an issue, claim how much improved things will be once we kick out the Westminster Uberlords. Really not sure how that will stop calls from India but hey-ho.
I'm waiting for the press release about fridges running that much better in a Free Scotland.
So you are now Australian and no longer British then
Well, in about 9 months time when I have dual nationality, then yes, technically I will be Australian, I suppose; but I'll also still be English, and British.
And curiously, thanks to an agreement between the Australian and New Zealand governments, if I wanted to be, once I've got Australian citizenship, I can also be a kiwi!
JY. I put forward an argument outlining the erosion of ties over the coming years with the UK. Not one nationalist reply could satisfactorily refute this claim, with some coming on here and effectively agreeing with me.
I think an SNP led administration post yes will be like a Putin led regime in terms of style but obviously not policy, and yes I do think avoiding this scenario is a better reason to vote no than not liking the premiership is a reason to vote yes.
[quote=hels ]
I read recently that John Swinney has claimed that Scottish telephone users will receive less spam marketing calls under a devolved government.
The one about mobile roaming charges going up under Independence was even better (particularly because it was made-up on the same day that the EU announced legislation that roaming charges would be reduced). Not quite as good as the "we'll have to bomb Scottish airbases" one though.
They'll also have to stop showing Balamory on Cbeebies.
Not one nationalist reply could satisfactorily refute this claim,
So you still agree with yourself - thanks for that 😕
FWIW it obvious the break up of the union will lead to the break up of the union the real issue is whether that is good or bad. The answer is just a guesswork [ from wither side]
TBH i dont think anyone could change your mind on any of this as it is not always based on fact [emotive reasons] and you have strong opinions on the matter - that is not an actual dig if it reads like it. Nothing wrong with strong opinions on issues and both sides have emotive arguments
with some coming on here and effectively agreeing with me.
Have you heard of a self fulfilling prophecy?
Re putin and premiership - they are both rubbish arguments but I should have added a wink as it was more said in jest than to debate which of these arguiments was the worst
[quote=molgrips ]They'll also have to stop showing Balamory on Cbeebies.
Say it's not troooooo!!!
JY. I am not taking offence and don't wish to cause any. You are right in saying that I am not an undecided voter. I realise I also have no chance of converting some on here. I am fairly even handed on most issues but not this one. You cannot remove emotive aspects from the debate. They are integral to it as most peoples day to day lives are run by emotions and relationships rather than a slide rule, statistics or political charts
they'll also have to stop showing Balamory
What the story ?
See what i did there 😉
[quote=athgray ]JY. I put forward an argument outlining the erosion of ties over the coming years with the UK. Not one nationalist reply could satisfactorily refute this claim, with some coming on here and effectively agreeing with me.
I'm not understanding why anyone would try to refute the argument that independence would result in an erosion of ties with the rUK. Isn't that self-obvious?
You cannot remove emotive aspects from the debate. They are integral to it as most peoples day to day lives are run by emotions and relationships rather than a slide rule, statistics or political charts
Well not really. People need their lives to be comfortable and easy, and that requires a strong economy. And the economy is run by charts and slide rules, unfortunately.
Social ties scotroutes. I outlined my feelings on this earlier. You can make what you want of the point and say I am talking sh*te. You wouldn't be the first on this thread. 😉
They are integral to it as most peoples day to day lives are run by emotions and relationships rather than a slide rule, statistics or political charts
True but this is a big decision like getting a mortgage or having kids. I would use a bit of both in the decision making process.
Many , on both sides, will just make an emotive decision
Personally, if could vote*, I would vote to leave as I think Scotland is very different politically from , particularly the southern parts, England and would benefit from greater freedom to do as she pleases rather than have to have Tory polcies despite not ever [ ok once] voting tory in Scotland.
* Scottish but live in England - to be clear since childhood so wont be painting myslef in woad and crying freedom but dont call me English either