[Closed] Scottish Independence... here we go a again 🙂

[quote=BigEaredBiker ] If Scotland votes YES in a referendum why does it automatically mean a future Scottish Parliament would choose to make storing/hosting nuclear weapons in Scotland illegal? The same could be said for anything which is a policy of the SNP but not necessarily other Scottish political parties.
My main line of thought is that a new Scottish government would be formed and just because the SNP have helped bring about independence it does not automatically follow that they would win enough seats in a subsequent Scottish Parliament to enact all their polices. Is that a fair comment?
Without getting bogged down in specifics, you are [i]sort of[/i] correct. However, any negotiations will be carried out between the referendum (2014) and the proposed Independence Day (2016) and it'll be an SNP Government negotiating on behalf of Scotland.

Realistically, how could any negotiation take place in advance of policies being made? The Yes campaign are already being accused of lacking in specifics. If we were to wait until after a referendum, even more folk would complain that they didn't know what they were voting for.

Reality? The shape of an independent Scotland will change over time. E.g. we might keep the monarchy in 2016, but any in-coming government could obviously end that arrangement.

I think its a bit disingenuous of the Better Together campaign to complain that Yes campaign lacks specifics when they aren't actually willing to discuss what would happen if Scotland voted Yes.

The reality is a lot of any post independence settlement would have to be negotiated after the referendum.

Anyway its largely a moot point as its very unlikely to happen - unfortunately

Oh - there's a body of opinion that suggests the SNP won't survive post independence. If you view it as a number of discrete factions bound by a common goal, then the ties between them could deteriorate when that goal is achieved. Given the tribal hatred shown by the Labour Party in Scotland, it's hard to imagine any current SNP member being welcomed into that particular fold but a new left-of-centre party could well emerge and while we no longer hear the "tartan tory" jibes these days, I can well imagine some members would be happy to consolidate with the rump of the Conservative Party in Scotland (or whatever it is subsequently re-invented as).

A new left of centre party wouldn't be the end of the world.

Labour are a shambles

It ain't over yet rich. 😉

Good answers; from what I seen of the better together campaigns much of it often sounds like speculation at best and doom mongering at worst.

[quote=BigEaredBiker ]Good answers; from what I seen of the better together campaigns much of it often sounds like speculation at best and doom mongering at worst.
It has certainly been very negative but I think that can only be expected of a campaign that is saying "no" to change. Of course, they are also unable to answer questions like "[i]will the UK be in the EU in 4 years time[/i]" whilst expecting the Yes campaign to come up with equivalent answers.

leave and leave now... even if its a no vote slippery salmond will cry foul and insist on another go in 5 more years..

jump now.. you can keep the nukes..oil, gas , fried mars bars as long as salmond NEVER crosses the wall which we ll be building in a flash.. Hadrian had the right idea

Oh look. The quality of the debate just hit "sewer" level.

TBF, you probably did well to get that high.

Only a few weeks ago Alastair Darling said he wanted to move the Better Together campaign on to the positives of the union. I think it's all gone a bit quiet since then.

I'm all for it, independant Scotland, same with Wales. Then the real prize a Free Yorkshire! I am of course have not to include Hull.

I'm still convinced the whole independence thing (at least in Salmond's eyes) is a classic case of 'want a puppy ask for a pony.' If he gets independence he'll have to take the blame for anything the voters don't like, and not have the luxury of blaming the Westminster posse (though to be fair would probably just take the Tories tack of blaming it all on the last government), whilst if he gets 'devo-max' as a sort of trade off then he gets more power and can still blame others.

richmtb - Member

I think its a bit disingenuous of the Better Together campaign to complain that Yes campaign lacks specifics when they aren't actually willing to discuss what would happen if Scotland voted Yes.

Damn straight. I mean, I can see why they do it, it's effective rabble politics but it is deeply shit. Demand hard facts from the Yes campaign, but offer nothing but scare stories. Just people eager to prove their lack of integrity.

Lol at totalshell

Shame on you scottroutes: I thought you scots had a sense of humour 😉

I want an independent South West as we have little in common with the home counties or the north for that matter, but the Cornish will never allow it as they want an independent Cornwall for the Cornish

ah right so he is using the edinburgh defence then ...oh theironing

FWIW i think he means some of it and fail to see how a pro unionist thinks insulting the scots will make them want to stay with them

It like being in someone house told to follow their rules told you are a shit then they implore you to stay.

I also like the fact that almost every single one of the pro union english camp are anti the european union.

In essence the like to be the big hitter in a union or else they think it is crap which is one of the reasons many scots want to leave.

Lol at totalshell

I want an independent South West as we have little in common with the home counties or the north for that matter, but the Cornish will never allow it as they want an independent Cornwall for the Cornish

[i]Shame on you scottroutes: I thought you scots had a sense of humour [/i]

I think they prefer to be called sweaty socks.

I also like the fact that almost every single one of the pro union english camp are anti the european union.

That seems the way of it for the most part. An independent Scotland probably would help some people face the facts that England can still play a major part in leading European and World affairs but more as a partner with other large European countries. I'd see Scotland looking more to partner with the Scandinavian countries (who let's face it clearly demonstrate what an independent Scotland would look like).

The problem of course is always the French - London will always be closer to Paris than Edinburgh in more than just distance 😉

Totalshell for muppet of the day award.

I'll laugh my head off if the Scots get independence. Talk about the blind leading the blind. And I say this as someone who's dad is full on Glaswegian.

Independence for Liverpool btw, I'd say Merseyside but no ****ing way do I want all those woolly backs from St Helens gegging in...

[i]And I say this as someone who's dad is full on Glaswegian. [/i]

The JOcko equivalent of "some of my best friends are black"?

Look forward to hearing you start to chuckle Loddrik.

totalshell - Member
leave and leave now... even if its a no vote slippery salmond will cry foul and insist on another go in 5 more years..

jump now.. you can keep the nukes..oil, gas , fried mars bars as long as salmond NEVER crosses the wall which we ll be building in a flash.. Hadrian had the right idea

Is that the best you have got? honestly. Thats as useful as me calling all the English as Morris dancing loving tory cretins. And strangely enough i have never been in a chippy that selld deep fried mars bars. But dont let that hold you back 🙄

Until recently i was anti-independence on the belief that as a whole the UK was much stronger economically and politically. Now we have a bunch of politicians who are as useless as humanly possible running the show. And as is well shown on here there are a lot of people who feel powerless to do anything about it as there vote can hardly bring about a revolution of change. And honestly if independence can take away a lot of the decision making from westminster then bring it on. A change might just be exactly what this country needs.

Though the lack of policy specifics don't fill me with too much happiness.

oh and a fact a lot of people seem to miss is this one, wanting independence for Scotland has nothing to do with being Anti English. Its about being proud of our country and wanting the best for it and its people.

calling all the English as Morris dancing loving tory cretins

Quite like morris dancing actually [sniff]

nothing to do with being Anti English

Yep we know. If you boys can work out how to do it without creating barriers and bad-feeling, democracy and all that, then do it. As long as an Englishman is still welcome when I visit for my holidays, I'm OK with it.

mactheknife - Member

Until recently i was anti-independence on the belief that as a whole the UK was much stronger economically and politically. Now we have a bunch of politicians who are as useless as humanly possible running the show.

Aye. And of course, only a single Tory MP. Being run by a shower of cocks is bad enough but it's doubly annoying when it's a shower of cocks you completely rejected at the polls.

Not that I'd be too impressed to have Labour in power just now either tbh. Though as a rule I'll take incompetence over malice.

DP. Nothing to see here, move along

Alex Salmond isn't proposing independance though, he is merely proposing to move the governemnt from London to Brussells... Scots would have less say in how Scotland is run as a result.
.
he hasn't thought it through either, they seem to have just assumed that Scotland would gain automatic EU membership if they separated. This is a big assumption, I don't think they have ever asked the question, presumably in case it got a no answer. Spain for example is likely to veto any membership application, to accept it would trigger all kinds of similar independance demands in Catalunya so they would never allow it.

[quote=andrewh ]Alex Salmond isn't proposing independance though, he is merely proposing to move the governemnt from London to Brussells...
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he hasn't thought it through either, they seem to have just assumed that Scotland would gain automatic EU membership if they separated. This is a big assumption, I don't think they have ever asked the question, presumably in case it got a no answer. Spain for example is likely to veto any membership application, to accept it would trigger all kinds of similar demands in Catalunya so they would never allow it.
FWIW, The Spanish have already said that they do not consider Scotland and Catalunya to be in any way related. For a start the Spanish Constitution prevents any region from gaining independence.

And the EU have said that the only folk that can ask the question pre-2016 are the UK Government. They've declined to do so. Why do you think that might be? Possibly because they won't like the answer?

I do like the "no" argument that goes

1) You'll still be in the grip of Brussels, which is bad
2) Unless you can't get in, which is also bad.

Most of the scots who I work with are clearly of the opinion that independence will only benefit the SNP, not Scotland.

And strangely enough i have never been in a chippy that selld deep fried mars bars. But dont let that hold you back

i have, and "mock chops" whatever they are

I've cooked DFMBs - fun size of course, served with some high quality vanilla ice cream from Luca's. They tend to go down rather well.

i do seem to have come round to voting yes. i will be quite glad to see it happen.

Interesting. Were you previously a floater or more veering towards a no? I'm just wondering when and why you decided.

My better half is from Newport on Tay. My grandparents are from the Borders (Kelso) and my other grandparents from Wales. I am 100% non English. I have lived in the North East all of my life. We visit Scotland twice a year to see family and friends. Not one of our friends or family has any time at all for Salmond or his party. I admire his stints on question time etc but it's not hard to pick holes in anything any of our Politicians say or do. The most interesting fact is none of the families that live in England now would move back, under any circumstances to Scotland until it's time to retire read into that going home to die. I have not heard of one instance of any of our friends and family that have moved here from Scotland to work and bring up their families not being welcomed with open arms. It's just not an issue. I wish the same could be said for friends of mine that have gone to work in Scotland. I think it's got worse because of rhetoric from Salmond.

Interesting. Were you previously a floater or more veering towards a no? I'm just wondering when and why you decided.

i find it a struggle to want to have a future within a state that keeps electing the conservatives. not that new labour where any better.

Now here's the interesting thing; with Scottish independence 59 parliamentary seats would go. Of these only 1 is Conservative, but 40 are Labour, 12 Lib dem, and 6 SNP. Should the last election results be repeated the Conservatives would hold a majority!

My grandparents are from the Borders (Kelso) My grandparents are from the Borders (Kelso)

iirc the borders are a conservative stronghold in scotland.

reminds me, murdo fraser is in the same building as me. i must spray paint graffiti on his car. cock piss murdo or something.

Nah. Murdo Fraser had the right idea. He wanted to completely scrap the Scottish Conservatives (and replace them with a new Right Wing party).

If you asked them what nationality they were they would always say Borderer's first then Scottish. Reminds me of that old Likely Lads sketch when Terry is talking about not liking Europeans then working his way North up the country to eventually his next door neighbour. We are a very stupid race.

[quote=Inbred456 ] Not one of our friends or family has any time at all for Salmond or his party.
And yet, not only did the SNP win an outright majority in a voting system [i]specifically designed to prevent such a thing[/i], but recent polling suggests that the SNP will win an even larger majority in the next Holyrood elections.

I have always leaned towards independence for my homeland,however increasingly a big reason for a yes vote from me is not based on any of the BS that either bitter together or smug Eck are spouting..It is the thought of the Government press conference the day after when a stern faced Cameron( who had a fright that his Father in Law might have taken a hit on his huge timber plantations up here)introduces a raft of measures that will make the way Thatcher treated Scotland look like the good old days,safe in the knowledge that we cannot do he-haw about it.

There is also the fact that because we don't,and won't vote for the Tories we will always be sucking hind tit...eg Major trading off a chunk of Spain's oil seed rape grant for a chunk of the UK's fishing quota and finishing the NE towns up here.

For a start the Spanish Constitution prevents any region from gaining independence.

This always strikes me as a strange argument, given that the act of union legislation clearly states:

[url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/section/I ]That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof [b][u]and forever[/u][/b] after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain[/url]

Does "forever" no longer mean in eternity?

Well Duckman being in Europe does mean a bit of compromise, apprently there has to be gie and give in Euro negotiations. Salmond will find this when he negotiates the EU membership and Scotland's entry into the Eurozone (as all new EU members are obliged to do). Bring it on I say you going to love it.

Zokes acts of parliament have regularly been repealed, abolished and just superseded by new legislation since parliament was created.
Further to that with a week being a long time in politcs you'll find that eternity means two months and forever is a period of time slightly shorter than a 'lifetime 'guarantee lasts 😉

piemonster - Member

iirc the borders are a conservative stronghold in scotland

Aye, so much of a stronghold that it's the one place we haven't yet been able to run them out of- that's where the one tory MP is. And he is an [i]incredible [/i]bellend ("Massive sporting event taking place in my constituency and nominated for an award? I'll throw my support behind one that's taking place in England").

Too much rugby I reckon, all brain damaged.

Further to that with a week being a long time in politcs you'll find that eternity means two months and forever is a period of time slightly shorter than a 'lifetime 'guarantee lasts

😀

[quote=mt ]Scotland's entry into the Eurozone (as all new EU members are obliged to do).
Scotland doesn't meet [i]the conditions[/i] for entry to the Eurozone.

Scotland doesn't meet the conditions for entry to the Eurozone.

No EU for you then...

O rly?

You'd think David Cameron would want to have that confirmed by the EU and destroy a major plank of SNP policy then. 🙄

Well, if you don't meet conditions for entry to the Eurozone, and entry to the EU is apparently contingent on using the Euro, then I can see a small problem.

[quote=zokes ]Well, if you don't meet conditions for entry to the Eurozone, and entry to the EU is [b]apparently[/b] contingent on using the Euro, then [b]I[/b] can see a small problem.
If you had any responsibility at all for helping to negotiate the position then that might be a problem right enough. As you don't, I think we can happily ignore your opinion.

And strangely enough i have never been in a chippy that selld deep fried mars bars.

I have - in Wales. Delicious it was, too 🙂

And yet, not only did the SNP win an outright majority in a voting system specifically designed to prevent such a thing, but recent polling suggests that the SNP will win an even larger majority in the next Holyrood elections.

There is a theory though that people vote significantly differently in other elections than in general ones. So don't count on the same voting pattern being repeated when it's for a full national government.

[quote=molgrips ]
There is a theory though that people vote significantly differently in other elections than in general ones. So don't count on the same voting pattern being repeated when it's for a full national government.
Indeed. The polls to which I refer assume election to a devolved, not independent, Scottish Government. I was merely pointing out that the experiences of inbred456 appear to be atypical. As I have already suggested, the success and make-up of Scottish political parties would likely go through a major upheaval post independence.

zokes - Member

Well, if you don't meet conditions for entry to the Eurozone, and entry to the EU is apparently contingent on using the Euro, then I can see a small problem.

Do you actually believe that I wonder? Not meeting euro criteria is no barrier to EU entry, that's basic stuff.

There's at least 4 members that in theory have committed to join the euro but in practice have made little progress towards convergence and have never even set a deadline to convert. Sweden's been in the EU for nearly 20 years but has no intention of joining the euro- they've effectively used the convergence criteria as a veto, which any other power can do, and this has been accepted by the EU. There's no provision for a country that doesn't join the euro to be kicked out or even censured in any way, and no requirement at all to progress towards convergence.

So all in all, see your post? No.

As Scotroutes says; the SNP are pretty much a single issue party, if they were to win I suspect that they,and Eck, would be about as popular as Winston Churchill after a war.

Don't think that's true tbh. Used to be, but the numbers suggest otherwise, support for the SNP is a lot stronger than the support for independence after all

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/big-indifferent-land-3-small-inexplicably-angry-land-2-2-2013081578687

Interesting. Were you previously a floater or more veering towards a no? I'm just wondering when and why you decided.

Actually, another thing that's swayed my opinion are some of the posters on STW. Amusingly not those in the Yes camp.

Strachan then walked over to his car, brought out a sledgehammer and went berserk.

Hodgson added: “What’s the matter with him?”

😀

Having met Salmond, I've come to the conclusion that its quicker just to assume he's lying and vote against whatever he's in favour of. He really is quite detestable.

But having moved 20 years ago from Glasgow, the town of my birth, to Yorkshire, where both my sons were born, I don't have to worry about voting for or against.

Now the real issue. I'd never heard of deep fried mars bars until I moved to England. And the first Scots chippy that I saw doing them was in Edinburgh near The Meadows.
This leads me to believe that the DFMB was invented to sell to English tourists and students.

Now deep fried pizza...

Alex Salmond is a slimy, odious, self-interested little opportunist! And therefore is the consomethinge politician. He's the shrewdest political operator in the country by a mile!

And Call-me-Dave is the same gift-that-keeps-giving to Scottish independence as Ed Milliband is to the Tory's

I don't think there are any barriers to an independent Scotland joining the EU. IF there are then they would in effect apply to rump UK as well.

Scottish independence is about repealing the 1707 act of union which forms the UK which is the EU member. If the act is repealed the UK which joined the EU no longer exists and there are two successor states both of which automatically qualify for EU membership.

If Westminster somehow made it that Scotland was seceding from the Union and was internationally recognised as a new country and not a successor state then the EU membership argument might hold water - I for one could not see this happening for the simple reason that the rump UK would be left with Scotland's share of the existing national debt where as a successor state would have to take their share and honour it.

The Tory's what?

[quote=BigEaredBiker ]I don't think there are any barriers to an independent Scotland joining the EU. IF there are then they would in effect apply to rump UK as well.
Scottish independence is about repealing the 1707 act of union which forms the UK which is the EU member. If the act is repealed the UK which joined the EU no longer exists and there are two successor states both of which automatically qualify for EU membership.
If Westminster somehow made it that Scotland was seceding from the Union and was internationally recognised as a new country and not a successor state then the EU membership argument might hold water - I for one could not see this happening for the simple reason that the rump UK would be left with Scotland's share of the existing national debt where as a successor state would have to take their share and honour it.

Not so sure on that. I reckon we'll see Scotland as a new state with the rUK as the "continuing" state. Scotland will take its share of assets and liabilities. However, that's not to say that the Spanish might want to see rUK also as a "new" state in order to give them leverage over Gibraltar.

Mind you, by 2016, who's to say that rUK will [i]want [/i]to be part of the EU?

I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that Salmond's a bit of a substandard human being, because so are all succesful politicians... So I judge him on how well he seems to be doing as first minister, which IMO is a lot better than any UK prime minister in my lifetime.

(have to say, Scotland seems to be blessed with good politicians, even the scottish tories are mostly fairly unpunchable. Or perhaps it's more that we have better politics? Certainly westminster compares unfavourably in most ways. Are we more mature, or just less jaded?)

Scotland seems to be blessed with good politicians

Probably the best of the lot died tragically young

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smith_(Labour_Party_leader)

Duckman - you may have a point

Can I have an independent South Buckinghamshire? Those Berkshire berks are just too much, and as for Hertfordshire.....!

Duckman- Instead we got Blair. No comment required.

Duckman- Instead we got Blair. No comment required.

True, but before he became an unconvicted war crimminal, he did finally initiate devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Of course you can argue that he did that to stop eroding votes to the Scot Nats, Plaid Cymru etc, but he was the one that fianlly saw it land on the statute books. Then again, he probably thought Labour would rule in Scotland forever, continuing their personal fiefdom.

I have no doubt that John Smith and Donald Dewar were very capable and sincere men, hell even Gordon Brown would qualify on that count, but like most parties, they are a den of vipers where party interest always comes first. Labour sat at the trough for many years and did little to curb Maggies excesses up here or anywhere.

Don't get me wrong, the sun does not shine out of the SNP's backside, they equally implement policies that are popular (minimum pricing, indendepence - maybe not), but much of their success appears to be reasonably good and honest government. That of course does not necessarily reflect in a majority for independence.

"As Scotroutes says; the SNP are pretty much a single issue party, if they were to win I suspect that they,and Eck, would be about as popular as Winston Churchill after a war."

I'd want Salmond incharge if there had to negociations with the EU om membership. He is possibley the most able politician in the UK, he'd make a bloody good prime minister.

Northwind and binners are on the money here with comments on Salmond, who I am fortunate enough to have met. He is indeed a typically odious and self-serving politician; he is also the best leader that UK politics has seen for many years, being the only real Statesman that we have seen in a very long time. He has made a very good job of running this braw wee country these last few years and has pulled a fair team of folk around him. No-one is perfect, least of all a politician, yet if we want to improve life for the majority of hard working Scots (who in my part of the world are almost unanimously pro independance), we need strong willed politicians to rid us of the damaging selfishness of the far SE.
And don't worry folks, we'll continue to look after our trails and even allow you to come and play on them from time to time.

Salmond does indeed highlight the crushing beige-ness of our present politicians, and the self-interested neo-liberal consensus they all represent, every time he opens his mouth. A fact that he obviously loves! And turns to his advantage at every opportunity

we need strong willed politicians to rid us of the damaging selfishness of the far SE.

You, and everyone else outside the South East of England needs that! If you get independence then us lot in the North of England are well and truly screwed! We're then doomed to eternal Tory government. We'd be effectively politically abandoned to our fate. We're not far off it now. But a future of Tory hegemony would absolutely destroy the North.

binners - one for you?
http://internationalcritique.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/a-kingdom-divided-the-prospects-for-scottish-independence/

Course you can ononeorange. Just ask Boris to have a word with cmd about the new airport there's always a deal to be made

Scotroutes - thats a really interesting article! Cheers! Raises some very interesting points

Not least that Salmond has shown that what people throughout the whole country are crying out for is a credible alternative to the 2 party system, which serves the interest of virtually no-one except a narrow, rich elite. The leaders of the 2 major parties must surely know that if a credible alternative were offered, with the same political nouse shown by Salmond, then the electoral results would be the similar to those of the SNP north of the border. Who are now harnessing not just the votes of those wanting independence, but the huge amount of people who now feel totally politically disenfranchised

We're then doomed to eternal Tory government

*Waits for somebody to post the "Scotland never decides and election" propaganda card