[Closed] Scottish Access rights, and closed fields

Can we walk through farm land, under the 2003 reform act, if there’s a sign up saying ‘Field closed, no access, lambing in progress’.

Yes. The Land Reform Act has not been suspended. Obviously, you should try to avoid spooking any sheep or lambs. Sometimes, a short diversion will avoid them. However, it's pretty common to come across lambing sheep all over the borders at this time of year. Mostly they don't give a shit.

If you see any of these signs report them to the Access Officer at Borders Council.

https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/forms/form/95/en/contact_the_access_officer

I use the simple rule of don't be a dick which in my mind covers the rules of Scottish access.
So yes you can still walk through a field with lambing sheep just don't be a dick and keep your distance. Simples.

The Land Reform Act gives us the right of responsible access, not permanent and unrestricted access. You need to decide if going through a field of lambing sheep is a responsible thing to do. It's pretty easy to make the argument that it's not. Obviously with a dog or similar, there's no doubt, don't do it. Walking/biking quietly and well away from the sheep/lambs, maybe.

It’s probably also fair to point out, sheep are quite easily spooked and have a habit of looking okay but aborting their lambs ‘relatively’ easily.
So definitely avoid if you have a dog, and if you can reasonably avoid going anywhere near them please do it.
As noted above, ‘don’t be a dick’ pretty much covers it.

The Dalmeny Estate between Edinburgh and South Queensferry have "closed" the middle bit of the cycle path (around the big house) to the public. They want Edinburgh folk to stay at the east end and South Queensferry folk to stay on the west end and for people not to travel through. Supposedly to protect the key workers there? Personally, I have been cycling back and forth on that path for years and have never seen a single person who works there.

The SOAC asks you to avoid enclosed fields with mother and young and where possible to find an alternative route (could just be the next field along.)

We allow crofters signs at this time asking people to 'please avoid this area April to June with dogs due to lambing' , but they should be removed after lambing. That's a polite request, not a bugger off.

We have similar for certain ground nesting bird areas.

Personally, I have been cycling back and forth on that path for years and have never seen a single person who works there.

However, we do live in unprecedented times.

I've reported local estate here and argued with landowner in Killin before over signs purporting to restrict access unfairly.

Equally I'm happy at lambing, stalking or the 12th to avoid some areas or alter some plans.

I'm understanding of the locked gates locally, there's so many folk trying to walk and ride a few local routes. I've never seen anyone on 6.5 years of living here on a particular track, yet suddenly there are multiple bike tyre and worn foot areas. It's gone from zero to hundreds. The path goes through a farm at one end. I get the lock and polite sign which explains why they've locked the gates and that they will open up when they can, with phone number and name.

Given that the golf courses and other open spaces here are polluted with uncontrollable dogs at the moment, I can see how a sheep farmer bordering on urban areas would be nervous.

I've no problem in general with trying to avoid lambing sheep but, as the OP says, this often takes place on what is basically open hillside, not small enclosures, and can therefore make bypassing them all but impossible.

On a related matter, I'd reported that the local RPSB had signs up saying that the forests were "closed". They've now changed the wording of the signs to clarify that the car parks and "facilities" are closed but the forests remain open for walkers and cyclists.

FWIW, there's no sheep around the Dalmeny estate path. It's part of the NCN as well.

I know about being careful around lambing sheep. I pass for one with my stupid haircut and Timber! bell anyway.

Funny I've been saying for years that it'd be massively helpful if farmers had a system to warn walker/cyclists that there was livestock in a field and to gaun canny. But yes, rule 1.

I've only seen one sign around hawick asking people to avoid one path that goes through someone's garden. They put it up due to health reasons and having folk sitting on their car bonnet chatting in the sunshine.
There is a genuine letter received health issue.

Two major routes in the Pentlands have signs up at the moment saying they are closed to cyclists, and cyclists only, because of sheep and lambs. Despite scientific evidence to the contrary that cyclists spook sheep less than walkers, and especially walkers with dogs. I've asked the Pentland Hills team at the council to change the wording to "cyclists slow down around sheep" but they won't even entertain the idea.

I've kept using them- the route isn't properly closed with a Section 11 and if you slow right down by the sheep they don't spook.

they are closed to cyclists, and cyclists only

OK for walkers with dogs then?

Getting no joy with the Rangers doesn't really surprise me. They've been in the pocket of the land managers since before F&M (I know, I was one).

Do you have some more details? I can pass it on to Scotways.

Ignoring a lambing sign in lambing season because you believe you know better is a dick move regardless of the law.

After lambing season it's fair game.

I'll email you the info on Monday with the details and their response to my request. It whiffs of a farmer with a prejudice against cyclists who has the park on his side.

Which Pentlands routes? I've not seen any closed signs recently and been up there quite a lot

I’ve kept using them- the route isn’t properly closed with a Section 11

ah here's a good example of being a dick

Which Pentlands routes? I’ve not seen any closed signs recently and been up there quite a lot

The route around the side of Harbour Hill towards Scalextric is for one. Was planning on riding it last week but decided not to. Though I agree with much of the above, I'm sure farmers have seen the speed people go down Scalextric, and some people probably don't slow down for sheep/lambs (as signs have requested in the past, rather outright closed to bikers) and make things worse for everyone.

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/practical-guide-all/farm-animals/fields-young-animals-present

All still relevant and applicable.

Which Pentlands routes? I’ve not seen any closed signs recently and been up there quite a lot

There's a few that often have the signs, Scalextric and the trail leading into it for example - really fast and grassy trail. A few years ago I used to attend the PHRP consultative forum which gave a good insight into the issues around this, basically it's a good area for lambing, on scalextric itself for example the path is wide and flat and grassy and great for the sheeps and lambs to hang out. Unfortunately people like munrobiker still feel the need to ride through these areas even when they're asked not to for a few weeks of the year, which obviously causes problems for the sheep in lamb. Then some also put more strain on the park rangers by writing long emails demanding legal explanations for the signs and all sorts, honestly it's embarrassing as a mountain biker.

It's the same mentality as the anti-lockdown protestors in the US, people in an already privileged position getting butthurt about a short term minor inconvenience and making a fuss about resisting to do what they're asked and trying to ruin it for everyone else. Not riding one or two trails for a few weeks really isn't difficult, but unfortunately some people can't see past themselves.

LOL. Some folk seem to be under the misapprehension that sheep farming has only existed in Scotland for a couple of years and that the law laid down in 2003 and subsequently revised in 2016 therefore didn't take it into account.

big jim
...Not riding one or two trails for a few weeks really isn’t difficult, but unfortunately some people can’t see past themselves.

I'm observant of not interfering with the lambing etc, but I'm also well aware of landowners who look for every opportunity to use as an excuse.

They are looking for the thin end of the wedge that will restrict the right to roam permanently. We have to be vigilant.

I should clarify a little to help. There aren't any laming sheep in the fields that I can see, it doesn't mean there aren't, but I'm 99% certain the farmer has taken them off the hill and into lower fields to lamb.

The area is very large and open. The encounters with sheep are pretty limited in general.

I'm pretty sure the sign is a knee-jerk reaction to stop the flow of addition traffic through the farm, as I'd never see people in the hill, now I'll see a good handful of families.

So, there's a good reason for sure.

I'm in the Temple/Carrington area a lot and there are loads of new signs up on gates at the moment advising folk not to enter the fields (that I'd occasionally go into connecting trails). I think a major reason is simply that it's way busier than normal and with folks that are perhaps less aware of common sense in regards to lambing/crops (as well as closing gates etc).

I've never actually seen as many cyclists out this way on the country roads and trails. 20+ on thursdays local loop when normally in might see 2/3 others...

Just another aspect of these totally weird times, farmers and estates are deviating from the rules and so are the public. As folk that are always out there, we just need to be extra sensible for now...

This situation really has brought out the worst in people. The disruption to the status quo has led some to seek to take advantage, and has led many to identify new outgroups to villify.

I really hate the "don't be a dick rule", whoever raises it is invariably being a dick themselves.

I really hate the “don’t be a dick rule”, whoever raises it is invariably being a dick themselves.

I'm finding it hard to convey the appropriate response here. But in a nutshell, no, you're wrong.

Any requests to avoid certain areas must be reasonable as well surely?

Its a difficult balance - Dalmeny estates for example are using ( supposed) instances of behaviour far outside access rights to support their attempt to stop access rights. they have a record of attempting to stop access.

Same in the pentlands - at least one landowner has a long history of attempting to restrict access

On the other hand a dog in a field of pregnant ewes can cause carnage

I think the solution to that one is easy. Shoot the dogs. Legal and again there is landowner in the pentlands that has resorted to that

Its a question of balance. Some landowners do not want access rights on their land, some recreational land users forget the need to remain responsible

Same in Glen Esk, the landowner has signs all over the shop telling folk the tracks are temporarily closed. Similar to the ones he has put up as he closed or gated the 7 bridges over the Esk over the last few years, refusing even to unlock one for a DoE kid with an obviously broken ankle. With the exception of a farm at the bottom, it's a grouse concentration camp, so any excuse.

Farmers are worried about their health too during Covid-19. The number of people accesing fields has increased dramatically. An increase in people touching gates for lock/unlocking, climbing styles etc has them worried they could contact the virus this way as they too access the same gates/styles for access to livestock checks etc. Seems a valid reason to me for just employing a bit of common sense at the minute rather than refer to rulebooks and rights.

it’s a grouse concentration camp

Grouse are not farmed.

Any requests to avoid certain areas must be reasonable as well surely?

I'd call lambing reasonable. Round here the thing seems to be more of a concern for virus transmission via hard surfaces as folk need access to fields to assist with lambing. The farmers want the least amount of folk touching stuff so requested folk stay out for the duration.

Sure, some folk are dicks, but it goes both ways. As pointed out, the Land Reform Act gives us the right of responsible access, not permanent and unrestricted access.

At least one of the landowners here has put bottles of hand sanitiser at the gates where access is commonly taken and if public access in general is a problem then there should be no reason to single out cyclists.

It’s the same mentality as the anti-lockdown protestors in the US, people in an already privileged position getting butthurt about a short term minor inconvenience and making a fuss about resisting to do what they’re asked and trying to ruin it for everyone else.

Wow, that’s quite a jump you’ve made there. But, whilst I get the logical leap you are trying to make there, I don’t think you really understand the US politics involved. That said both situations can be managed better if 1. The legal issues are properly clarified and both sides stay within the law; 2. Those in “power” make clear, unambiguous requests (clarifying if it is a legal requirement or a polite request) explain their decision and provide viable alternatives for those who are affected: one of the reasons you haven’t seen similar protests here is because of the furlough scheme. Likewise land managers should be providing alternative routes (and if this is an annual issue then all the more so); and making their signage clear. Simply highlighting the relevant section of the LR(S)A or SNH guidance would reassure many that the decision had at least been taken whilst aware of the law and not to disregard it completely.

Not riding one or two trails for a few weeks really isn’t difficult, but unfortunately some people can’t see past themselves.

Perhaps, but given government instruction not to drive, if routes are closed impeding local exercise that is an issue - it causes congestion on a small number of areas which exacerbates the covid issue. If routes are closed say at the top of a hill or a long path that is particularly unhelpful and land managers could reduce conflict by signposting alternatives earlier or highlighting e.g. in local social media pages where restrictions are in place.

If bikes in a particular lambing field is an issue a sign like this:

“Lambing in this field dD/mm to dD/mm - cyclist please dismount and push bikes for next 500 yds when sheep are in the field. Keep dogs on a short lead and away from sheep. Bikes And dogs can frighten pregnant ewes and risk miscarriage; or easily injure new born lambs.”

Or

“Lambing dD/mm to dD/mm field closed to public - follow diversion signs —>
(sX of LRSA(2016))”

Is much less likely to cause conflict than “Lambing - no bikes”

Grouse are not farmed.

Yes they are - in massive intensive farms all over Scotland. Have you seen the lammermuirs? Just because they are freerange does not mean its not a farm

Supposedly Edinburgh Council are looking to build a bridge from Cramond over the Almond to edge of the Dalmeny Estate, and are going to CPO it - fed up with the estate's attitude to access

There used to be "supposedly" a ferry across the almond at crammond but I never actually saw it working and there was no way to summon it from the Crammond side. During foot and mouth a sign was put up saying "ferry closed" which became permanent

Dalmeny estate also took public money to "improve" paths ( maybe the sustrans route?) after the LRA - but I never saw any improvements done

Dalmeny estate have real concerns and issues - but add that to their anti access attitude and we get the position of what appears to be an unreasonable attempt to remove all access

That sidle route from the top of Maidens to scaletrix has had that request sign in it every April and May in the last 4 years I can remember so not exactly new. There’s a load of people up there just now and I have some sympathy with the amount of gate touching etc esp when farmers can’t control what they need to touch. I always think that while we have a right of access we also need to be respectful to people livelihoods and livestock. There’s lots of other areas lower down in the Pentlands where you can get some lively conflict anyway , I get bloody irritated watching people blatantly ignore ignore polite request signs.

TBF, I'd do what the Pentlands sign asks me to and ignore the Dalmeny one and just cycle through.

There used to be “supposedly” a ferry across the almond at crammond but I never actually saw it working and there was no way to summon it from the Crammond side.

Aye, my mate's old man used to operate this. One oar at the back of the boat and it ran on a fairly regular schedule with posted times for first and last sailing which were always flexible. When the new ferry man took over in fairly short order he spotted what became known as the Cramond Lioness in the shallow water. Can't recall when the ferry stopped operating.

It has never operated since I have been in Edinburgh - 27 years

Closed in 2000 due to F&M. Then there was something wrong with the pier.

I saw this yesterday, and thought fair enough. It is polite and clear. Unfortunately I was going the other way and just emerging onto the road. There were a lot of sheep and lambs, and I took it very easy, but then I always would. No-one wants to get a reputation as a sheep-worrier, or worse!

All the gates were actually open, all the way, as 2 of the farmers on Quad bikes were trying to catch some off-road motorbikes, which must have been scaring the sheep.

It never ran before that as far as I could see scotroutes. Not since I was in edinburgh in 1990